The other 3 Gotham opponents announced

[Sean Miller Fan]

Eastern Washington from the Big Sky
Morehead State from the OVC
Western Carolina from the SoCon

EWU was very good last year, not sure how they'll be next year. Morehead State is a middle tier OVC program who probably wont have a good RPI. WCU is not a good program though not sure what next year is looking like. Coulda been worse.

So, here's what we know, right?

Home
Purdue
Kent Stae
EWU
Morehead
WCU

Neutral
Gonzaga (Okinawa)
Davidson (MSG
Duquesne (CEC)

That leaves 5 games. Hopefully we can schedule a true road game as part of a home and home series getting them at home next year when we go on the road to a B10 school. Jamie said they were trying in Zeise's blog but this late in the game, it would appear that we will once again fail in our attempt to schedule a high level home and home. Hopefully, RMU is one of the other 5 games left. That's a great RPI game.

 

[levance2]

Another thrilling tournament entry by Mr. Dixon...

 

[NTOP]

Another thrilling tournament entry by Mr. Dixon...

Cheap shot....he doesn't choose the teams.

 

[levance2]

Cheap shot....he doesn't choose the teams.

He chooses the events. This is the one area that Dixon deserves way more criticism than he gets. This event was so bad a year ago that they had to schedule another two teams to headline the final. Then compare it to the years prior when it had #2 OSU vs ND and #3 Cuse vs Temple.

 

[NTOP]

He chooses the events. This is the one area that Dixon deserves way more criticism than he gets. This event was so bad a year ago that they had to schedule another two teams to headline the final. Then compare it to the years prior when it had #2 OSU vs ND and #3 Cuse vs Temple.

I'm not sure he does that. It's by invitation, right?? We were in Maui last year...that's a strong event. I'm sure there's lobbying by coaches & AD's, but doubt that Dixon just chooses where to go. He does like to play in NYC.

 

[levance2]

I'm not sure he does that. It's by invitation, right?? We were in Maui last year...that's a strong event. I'm sure there's lobbying by coaches & AD's, but doubt that Dixon just chooses where to go. He does like to play in NYC.

The head coach absolutely has final say in what events the team plays. He can't unilaterally insert himself into Maui or Atlantis, but nobody is forcing him to accept an invitation to Gotham...

A few years ago we played in the Philly Hoop Group event at the Palestra, which was basically a total cluster-f of an event for us. A fun opportunity to see Pitt in a classic venue (I went), but absolutely worthless for the team.

 

[NTOP]

The head coach absolutely has final say in what events the team plays. He can't unilaterally insert himself into Maui or Atlantis, but nobody is forcing him to accept an invitation to Gotham...

A few years ago we played in the Philly Hoop Group event at the Palestra, which was basically a total cluster-f of an event for us. A fun opportunity to see Pitt in a classic venue (I went), but absolutely worthless for the team.

But that doesn't mean every coach can PICK the tournament....he can say no....but can't conjure up an invite of his choice. And if he says no too often.....the invites stop coming. That also means he has NO CLUE as to the opponents...these events capture the name teams first, then fill in the blanks. Most mid-majors jump at the chance.
Of course, those facts are trumped by an anti-Dixon agenda.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

He chooses the events. This is the one area that Dixon deserves way more criticism than he gets. This event was so bad a year ago that they had to schedule another two teams to headline the final. Then compare it to the years prior when it had #2 OSU vs ND and #3 Cuse vs Temple.

Yea, lets not pretend that everybody hates Pitt and no good tournaments want us, just like no good OOC teams want to play us home and home. It doesn't add up.

Here's the tournaments we've been in Jamie's tenure:

04: none
05: none (not as many tournaments back then)
06: fake tournament (home games vs NE, UMass, Oakland, FSU)
07: fake tournament (home games vs Houston Baptist, NC A&T, SLU, MVSU)
08: Legends Classic (Akron, IUP, TT, Wash St)
09: CBE Classic (Binghamton, EKU, Wichita, Texas)
10: 2K Sports Classic (URI, UIC, Maryland, Texas)
11: Philly Hoop Group Classic (Rider, LaSalle, Penn, RMU)
12: NIT (Fordham, Oakland, Michigan, Delaware)
13: Legends Classic (Howard, Lehigh, TT, Stanford)
14: Maui (Samford, Chaminade, SDSU, KST)
15: Gotham (EWU, Morehead, WCU, Davidson)

In the last 12 years, we have not played in one of the ESPN-owned events (Orlando, Anaheim, Puerto Rico, Charleston). Considering we have played in 5 Gazelle Group Events (2 Legends, CBE 2K, Gotham, also Gazelle owns the CBI which we were in), that just seems a little off.

It was great to see Pitt get the Maui and NIT invites but I hope in the future we start going to more premier tournaments like Orlando, Puerto Rico, or Atlantis. Even a tournament like Charleston or Vegas can get some good teams especially in the semis and finals. And really, those are destinations where I think you'd get a decent amount of vacationing Pitt fans like me who would attend.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Yea, lets not pretend that everybody hates Pitt and no good tournaments want us, just like no good OOC teams want to play us home and home. It doesn't add up.

Here's the tournaments we've been in Jamie's tenure:

04: none
05: none (not as many tournaments back then)
06: fake tournament (home games vs NE, UMass, Oakland, FSU)
07: fake tournament (home games vs Houston Baptist, NC A&T, SLU, MVSU)
08: Legends Classic (Akron, IUP, TT, Wash St)
09: CBE Classic (Binghamton, EKU, Wichita, Texas)
10: 2K Sports Classic (URI, UIC, Maryland, Texas)
11: Philly Hoop Group Classic (Rider, LaSalle, Penn, RMU)
12: NIT (Fordham, Oakland, Michigan, Delaware)
13: Legends Classic (Howard, Lehigh, TT, Stanford)
14: Maui (Samford, Chaminade, SDSU, KST)
15: Gotham (EWU, Morehead, WCU, Davidson)

In the last 12 years, we have not played in one of the ESPN-owned events (Orlando, Anaheim, Puerto Rico, Charleston). Considering we have played in 5 Gazelle Group Events (2 Legends, CBE 2K, Gotham, also Gazelle owns the CBI which we were in), that just seems a little off.

It was great to see Pitt get the Maui and NIT invites but I hope in the future we start going to more premier tournaments like Orlando, Puerto Rico, or Atlantis. Even a tournament like Charleston or Vegas can get some good teams especially in the semis and finals. And really, those are destinations where I think you'd get a decent amount of vacationing Pitt fans like me who would attend.

I don't think it is a matter of no good teams want to play us home and home in OOC. Rather, IMO it is a matter of Dixon and Pederson just sitting in it when we left BE and joined the ACC.

After Cuse left the BE at the same time, they then made long term home and home agreements with St Johns, Nova and Georgetown... and while this was going Dixon/Pederson were just sitting on their a**es... preferring to bring in low-profile schools that would be willing to play at the Pete without a return visit on our part. In other words, LOSERS. They made some phone calls but that was about it. Given our history with UCONN, there should have been no problem setting up long term home and home.... but NOOOOOO. And, if you can't get Nova (who the hell cares about Nova?) or Georgetown you can always try Temple, Cincy, or other schools. But... NADA.

Yeah, this was probably more Pederson than Dixon because with Pederson gone Dixon is now talking about setting up a home and home (they should go for UConn if they can get it... otherwise Temple or Cincy). Yeah, a big step up when Gallagher fired Pederson's butt and hired Barnes.

The problem Dixon is gonna have... is a lot of schools (like Georgetown) have already made their agreements and don't have any openings. This is what you get for sitting on your butts. So, you gotta go with the best you can find out there.

 

[levance2]

The problem is that Dixon has stated that he prefers to enter the events in Pitt's traditional recruiting areas. He has picked a couple of oddballs like Kansas City and Maui, but those have been rare exceptions. Pitt is clearly on the list of preferred teams for 2K, Coaches vs Cancer, Legends, Gotham, and NIT because of our NYC connections and decent draw.

The problem seems to be that these events know Dixon is only going to pick between those events, not look at Orlando/LA/Vegas options, and enter pretty much blindly no matter who else is involved. I imagine he signs on the dotted line several years in advance, without knowing the full fields, and doesn't rock the boat if the opponents are less than desirable.

Pitt has no leverage when they seem unwilling to enter more than half of the possible events. Here are the other ACC members:

Miami: Puerto Rico
Virginia: Charleson
Duke: 2K
FSU: Virgin Islands
WF: Maui (how the heck did they manage that??)
NCSt: Legends (compare our field to theirs: ASU, Marquette, LSU)
Clemson: Vegas
UNC: KC
Cuse: Atlantis
GT: NIT
ND: Orlando
BC: LA
VT: Florida
UL: Brooklyn (similar event to ours, vs St Louis)

How many of those other events will Pitt ever play? Not many.

 

[levance2]

The fuss over home and homes is just garbage. It is 10x easier to get better matchups in these exempt events than to coordinate home and home series. People should be way more outraged over these events than they are about home and homes. It is comical.

What difference does it make if you play UConn in MSG vs the Pete? If playing the game helps to develop the team, then the only reason to demand it be played in Pittsburgh is because of our whiny fanbase.

 

[NTOP]

I don't think it is a matter of no good teams want to play us home and home in OOC. Rather, IMO it is a matter of Dixon and Pederson just sitting in it when we left BE and joined the ACC.

After Cuse left the BE at the same time, they then made long term home and home agreements with St Johns, Nova and Georgetown... and while this was going Dixon/Pederson were just sitting on their a**es... preferring to bring in low-profile schools that would be willing to play at the Pete without a return visit on our part. In other words, LOSERS. They made some phone calls but that was about it. Given our history with UCONN, there should have been no problem setting up long term home and home.... but NOOOOOO. And, if you can't get Nova (who the hell cares about Nova?) or Georgetown you can always try Temple, Cincy, or other schools. But... NADA.

Yeah, this was probably more Pederson than Dixon because with Pederson gone Dixon is now talking about setting up a home and home (they should go for UConn if they can get it... otherwise Temple or Cincy). Yeah, a big step up when Gallagher fired Pederson's butt and hired Barnes.

The problem Dixon is gonna have... is a lot of schools (like Georgetown) have already made their agreements and don't have any openings. This is what you get for sitting on your butts. So, you gotta go with the best you can find out there.

Zara....you KNOW this how?? Internet message boards??

 

[Zaratoughda]

The fuss over home and homes is just garbage. It is 10x easier to get better matchups in these exempt events than to coordinate home and home series. People should be way more outraged over these events than they are about home and homes. It is comical.

What difference does it make if you play UConn in MSG vs the Pete? If playing the game helps to develop the team, then the only reason to demand it be played in Pittsburgh is because of our whiny fanbase.

Levance... IMO it is a matter of visibility... and keeping our visibility on the east coast which is where we got most of our recruits in the past.

With being in the ACC, we don't need any visibility from Virginia south.... we are getting that already.

But, north of that is a different story. So, any game against a significant opponent in the NY, to Philly and Baltimore to DC areas... would really keep our visibility.

Playing UConn in Harrford... particularly given the Pitt/UConn battles in the past... would mean a full house there and a fair amount of people watching the game on the tube. But, Pitt/Davidson in MSG.... you must be kidding me... mostly empty seats in the stands and hardly anybody watching on the tube... and Davidson is hardly UConn when it comes to getting good TV ratings (yeah, you would think MSG could have done better).

The problem with these tourneys.... is for the most part... empty seats. Not so against a major opponent in a home and home. When UConn came to the Pete, you can bet that the stands would be full and the place rocking. But, with these lower profile schools... a lot of people even with season tickets just don't bother to show.

Yeah, IMO you need a few cupcakes at the beginning of the season to allow your team to get up to speed... but after that major competition not only gets the visibility (which makes a big difference to recruits) but also comes into play with your RPI when it comes to NCAA selection time.

 

[levance2]

Your rambling response makes no sense. You are taking both sides of the issue.

If Pitt needs to play top competition (e.g., UConn, Ohio State) then they should play these teams anywhere that they can, including Pittsburgh, NYC, or some small island in the Pacific.

Fans can't accept a tournament where the best team is Davidson in MSG while at the same time whining about not having a good home contest. It is 10x easier for Dixon to get a high profile team by playing in any number of exempt events than getting that team to come to the Pete.

I don't care if there are 10 fans in the building or 100,000. Pitt is competing against the team on the floor. Playing a home/road game as opposed to neutral is absolutely meaningless to me.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Pitt is clearly on the list of preferred teams for 2K, Coaches vs Cancer, Legends, Gotham, and NIT because of our NYC connections and decent draw.

.

Quick correction: Our "connection" is with The Gazelle Group who runs those events and also the CBI. The Pitt/Gazelle relationship is probably a big reason why we even agreed to play in the CBI. For some reason we only play in Gazelle events and ignore the ESPN-owned and other events though we have played in non-Gazelle events such as the NIT, Maui, and Philly HoopGroup.

 

[NTOP]

NTOP... I just told you I was ignoring you so... don't expect any response to questions you might have of me.

I never expect any real answers.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Your rambling response makes no sense. You are taking both sides of the issue.

If Pitt needs to play top competition (e.g., UConn, Ohio State) then they should play these teams anywhere that they can, including Pittsburgh, NYC, or some small island in the Pacific.

Fans can't accept a tournament where the best team is Davidson in MSG while at the same time whining about not having a good home contest. It is 10x easier for Dixon to get a high profile team by playing in any number of exempt events than getting that team to come to the Pete.

I don't care if there are 10 fans in the building or 100,000. Pitt is competing against the team on the floor. Playing a home/road game as opposed to neutral is absolutely meaningless to me.

Pitt/Ohio State would be a nice matchup but it would not bring the visibility on the east coast that Pitt/UConn would. Also, Pitt/Ohio State does not have the history that Pitt/UConn has. In the past, we got a LOT of recruits from the NYC Metro area and with the move to the ACC, that recruiting area is drying up.

 

[DT_PITT]

The head coach absolutely has final say in what events the team plays. He can't unilaterally insert himself into Maui or Atlantis, but nobody is forcing him to accept an invitation to Gotham...

A few years ago we played in the Philly Hoop Group event at the Palestra, which was basically a total cluster-f of an event for us. A fun opportunity to see Pitt in a classic venue (I went), but absolutely worthless for the team.

EIther NC State or Wake Forest was supposed to play in the Hoop Group event when Pitt signed onto the Hoop Group event. The year before Pitt was in the Legends Classic, G-town, Indiana and UCLA played in that event.

I believe some of the criticism of Dixon's OOC is founded, but I don't think the criticism is as legit in reference to the Pre-season tournaments we select.

 

[PantherRich1]

Detroit comes to the Pete on Friday November 20. Good mid major game.

 

[ameoba defense]

Detroit comes to the Pete on Friday November 20. Good mid major game.

Not a bad game considering we have a Detroit guy on the staff. Gives us a bit of publicity in that area. We're not going to go into Detroit and outrecruit MSU, and UM, but we might be able to snag a player who can help.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

EIther NC State or Wake Forest was supposed to play in the Hoop Group event when Pitt signed onto the Hoop Group event. The year before Pitt was in the Legends Classic, G-town, Indiana and UCLA played in that event.

I believe some of the criticism of Dixon's OOC is founded, but I don't think the criticism is as legit in reference to the Pre-season tournaments we select.

We have never been in a traditional 3-round ESPN-owned event (which are usually better in competition) like Orlando, Puerto Rico, Anaheim, or Charleston. You can throw Atlantis in there but that's new and not owned by ESPN. Just seemed odd.

 

[levance2]

EIther NC State or Wake Forest was supposed to play in the Hoop Group event when Pitt signed onto the Hoop Group event. The year before Pitt was in the Legends Classic, G-town, Indiana and UCLA played in that event.

I believe some of the criticism of Dixon's OOC is founded, but I don't think the criticism is as legit in reference to the Pre-season tournaments we select.

I can't agree with this, DT. There are just too many events where the excuse is "team X was slated for this, but left for [insert reason]." This seems to happen to Pitt every year. 2015 Maui, 2012 NIT, and 2009 CBE are the only events that you can really argue that there was a team close to Pitt's caliber or better in the field. Why are people always able to drop out of our events, but Pitt can't?

Leaving aside Maui, Pitt has played maybe two top opponents in 10 years of exempt events: Texas in 2009-10 and Michigan in 2012-13. That's not enough.

The reason that nobody wants to play home and homes is because teams play competitive tournaments. When you weren't playing an event every year, people played more road games. The easiest way to improve the OOC is to get into better events. Simple.

 

[DT_PITT]

I can't agree with this, DT. There are just too many events where the excuse is "team X was slated for this, but left for [insert reason]." This seems to happen to Pitt every year. 2015 Maui, 2012 NIT, and 2009 CBE are the only events that you can really argue that there was a team close to Pitt's caliber or better in the field. Why are people always able to drop out of our events, but Pitt can't?

Leaving aside Maui, Pitt has played maybe two top opponents in 10 years of exempt events: Texas in 2009-10 and Michigan in 2012-13. That's not enough.

The reason that nobody wants to play home and homes is because teams play competitive tournaments. When you weren't playing an event every year, people played more road games. The easiest way to improve the OOC is to get into better events. Simple.

I suppose if you look over Dixon's 12 years of exempt events, your point has more validity. If you look at it more recently, it may have a little less:

2003-2004 - Pittsburgh Holiday Hoops (four home games -- including Georgetown KY - yuck!)
2004-2005 - No exempt event
2005-2006 - No exempt event
2006-2007 - First Commonwealth Colonial Athletic Assoc event (all played at home - FSU was the best opponent -- not much here)
2007-2008 - Hispanic College Fund Challenge (4 complete zzzz home games!)
2008-2009 - Legends Classic (Texas Tech, WSU - not much here)
2009-2010 - CBE Classic (Texas - top 10, Wichita State)
2010-2011 - Coaches V Cancer (Texas -- ended up being a top 10 and the OOC win that really helped secure our #1 seed, Maryland)
2011-2012 -- Hoop Group (very poor opponents as discussed)
2012-2013 - NIT Season Tip Off (Michigan - top 10, Delaware -- this opponent was supposed to be Virginia, but they were upset by Delaware).
2013-2014 - Legends Classic (Texas Tech and Stanford - only fair opponents, but like I said, the tourney had a top 5 Indiana team the year before.)
2014-2015 (Maui -- San Diego State, KSU, could have been Arizona - which was top 10 - although this isn't a scheduling issues -- it was only that our team stunk).

It would seem to me that we've done OK in the exempt tourneys (but not great) over the last 6 years. Four of the last six years isn't too bad. Pretty crappy before that for sure.

Actually, another good way to play top opponents are the "single game" made for TV events played at neutral sites--like the Duke game in 2007 (other good games against OK State, Alabama) and the upcoming Gonzaga game. This is because these games are usually scheduled 6 months out, instead of 1-2 years in advance like some exempt tourneys. And with a 1-2 year advance, you never know how good a team will be.

Kind of reminds me of "GameDay" at the Pete in 2012 when L-ville came here as we were 0-6 in the Big East (and L-ville was struggling too).

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I can't agree with this, DT. There are just too many events where the excuse is "team X was slated for this, but left for [insert reason]." This seems to happen to Pitt every year. 2015 Maui, 2012 NIT, and 2009 CBE are the only events that you can really argue that there was a team close to Pitt's caliber or better in the field. Why are people always able to drop out of our events, but Pitt can't?

Leaving aside Maui, Pitt has played maybe two top opponents in 10 years of exempt events: Texas in 2009-10 and Michigan in 2012-13. That's not enough.

The reason that nobody wants to play home and homes is because teams play competitive tournaments. When you weren't playing an event every year, people played more road games. The easiest way to improve the OOC is to get into better events. Simple.

Yes, clearly Jamie and Pitt have some control over what tournament and events we play in. Its just hard to keep buying that nobody wants to play us and everybody backs out of tournaments we are in. I mean even the MSG one-game events we've been in were less than stellar besides the Duke game (Memphis, Bama, a bad IU team, OKST, Cincy, Davidson).

If Pitt was looking for better tournaments, they need to either do Atlantis or one of the ESPN-owned events. In those tournaments, there are no worries about competition. You KNOW you are going to get some good teams. The Gazelle Group events have bee bad but we keep going back to them.

 

[levance2]

The Gazelle Group events have bee bad but we keep going back to them.

That is my entire point, the Gazelle events aren't "bad", they have just been mostly bad in years where Pitt plays them. Compare our Legends field to NC State, Marquette, LSU, and Arizona State this year. 2K Classic has a great field: Duke, Wisconsin, Georgetown, VCU.

That's why I can't buy that we're just unlucky in this. Pitt gets the worst fields offered by these events seemingly every year we participate. I just don't get it.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

That is my entire point, the Gazelle events aren't "bad", they have just been mostly bad in years where Pitt plays them. Compare our Legends field to NC State, Marquette, LSU, and Arizona State this year. 2K Classic has a great field: Duke, Wisconsin, Georgetown, VCU.

That's why I can't buy that we're just unlucky in this. Pitt gets the worst fields offered by these events seemingly every year we participate. I just don't get it.

Yea, I mean the circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that Jamie/Pederson/Pitt only agree to participate in "weak" tournaments. That doesn't mean that's the case but the evidence certainly points to that. When you consider we are one of the only programs in the country who doesn't play high-level "home and homes," that only makes the case stronger.

I'm not a fan of the Gazelle events at all. I mean, yea, they do get some good fields every now and then, but they mostly do not. I like the 8 team, 3 round tournaments like Maui, PR, Atlantis, Orlando, Anaheim, Charleston. 3 days of great basketball, all on the same floor, like a conference tournament in November. I think the fact that its 3 games against good teams (most of the time, you dont always get that) scares us away and we go for the fake tournaments or the Gazelle tournaments which are mostly 2 game tournaments with 2 cupcake wins at home.

 

[levance2]

Yea, I mean the circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that Jamie/Pederson/Pitt only agree to participate in "weak" tournaments. That doesn't mean that's the case but the evidence certainly points to that. When you consider we are one of the only programs in the country who doesn't play high-level "home and homes," that only makes the case stronger.

You could say all the same things about Louisville or Syracuse. I really don't see that as true. There are plenty of tournaments that Pitt would easily win, but we don't enter those outside of NYC.

I don't think the problem is the 3-game format, nor the promoter, I really think Dixon just refuses to take events that are outside of his recruiting area. He's stated before that he also likes games that players friends and families get to attend. He took the CBE in KC as a Gazelle event, not sure why. He took Maui because it's the best tournament you can get in. Other than that, he's been overly conservative. Regardless of DT's hypotheticals, there's no way Pitt should've played that Philly event. I'm pretty sure it ceased operation after that year.

Either someone (AD, staff, etc) pushed him to take the Maui invite; or he had enough sense to know that it was a worthy departure from his standard procedure. Either way, it needs to continue. Even if we aren't lucky enough to get an Atlantis invite soon, we need to branch out to Orlando/LA/etc. at least once every 4-year cycle.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You could say all the same things about Louisville or Syracuse. I really don't see that as true. There are plenty of tournaments that Pitt would easily win, but we don't enter those outside of NYC.

I don't think the problem is the 3-game format, nor the promoter, I really think Dixon just refuses to take events that are outside of his recruiting area. He's stated before that he also likes games that players friends and families get to attend. He took the CBE in KC as a Gazelle event, not sure why. He took Maui because it's the best tournament you can get in. Other than that, he's been overly conservative. Regardless of DT's hypotheticals, there's no way Pitt should've played that Philly event. I'm pretty sure it ceased operation after that year.

Either someone (AD, staff, etc) pushed him to take the Maui invite; or he had enough sense to know that it was a worthy departure from his standard procedure. Either way, it needs to continue. Even if we aren't lucky enough to get an Atlantis invite soon, we need to branch out to Orlando/LA/etc. at least once every 4-year cycle.

There seems to be a relationship with Gazelle, which is why we took the KC invite. As for the Philly Tournament, that was run by Philly Hoop Group, which Mike Rice was a big part of so I'm sure he got us in that event. Well, that and the fact that they run JamFest which used to be held at the Pete and other sites on campus. So there was that connection. I still think he shies away from the 3-game setup because there are more unknowns. Now, you cant pass up Maui and probably wont be able to pass up Atlantis as that seems to be the premier tournament now but with Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Orlando, Anaheim, and Charleston a bit more unpredictable, I think we stay away from those since we have less control over who we'll play.

No doubt, Jamie likes to play in tournaments close to home for recruiting purposes but if that's the only reason, I think its oversimplifying. Its better for recruiting to play in a premier tournament on Thanksgiving Day, which gets massive ratings because everybody is off and only the NFL is on TV than in front of 500 people at the Barclays Center. In any event, I dont even buy into the whole "playing games in certain cities" for recruiting anymore. College basketball recruiting has evolved. All the recruiting is done during the AAU meat market events. I used to think giving up MSG was a big deal but I no longer think it matters much. If you have a good personality, play up tempo, and have a recruitinator, you could play games in Kazakhstan and still land good recruits.

 

[DT_PITT]

Regardless of DT's hypotheticals, there's no way Pitt should've played that Philly event. I'm pretty sure it ceased operation after that year.

I wasn't trying to make the point the Philly event was worth it, even if a ACC opponent had been in it. Nor do I disagree with your point. I don't share the same fervor that you have, but I certainly see where you are coming from.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

Very uninteresting so far.

 

[mbrannagan]

Another thing that hurts Pitt is that they have been in conferences where there are true national programs. The prestigious tournaments want those teams, even when Pitt is a better performer. In the Big East Syracuse, Georgetown, Notre Dame and UCONN were always bigger draws, even Nova has a better national presence. In the ACC you have Duke and UNC (and still Syracuse). This does and has impacted the invites. For instance, I have it on good authority that Pitt has never turned down an invite to Maui and that is a great tourney. Why is it that a team who has been so consistently good had never even received such an invitation.

 

[levance2]

For instance, I have it on good authority that Pitt has never turned down an invite to Maui and that is a great tourney. Why is it that a team who has been so consistently good had never even received such an invitation.

I think it's pretty similar to the angst over bowl invites. Pitt fans don't travel particularly well, although NYC is somewhat an exception, and we don't have a giant TV draw. SP said that Pitt had roughly the same number of fans as any other school in Maui, which I think is really great for Pitt. Pitt is never going to compare to having Duke, UNC, or Syracuse there, though.

I'd disagree with you a little, however, in that Wake Forest is the ACC rep to Maui this year. Although there are years when the Maui field looks really loaded, it isn't in their best interest to field the top 7 teams in the AP poll. They need some fodder also.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Another thing that hurts Pitt is that they have been in conferences where there are true national programs. The prestigious tournaments want those teams, even when Pitt is a better performer. In the Big East Syracuse, Georgetown, Notre Dame and UCONN were always bigger draws, even Nova has a better national presence. In the ACC you have Duke and UNC (and still Syracuse). This does and has impacted the invites. For instance, I have it on good authority that Pitt has never turned down an invite to Maui and that is a great tourney. Why is it that a team who has been so consistently good had never even received such an invitation.

Nobody is going to turn down a Maui invite, big deal. And I disagree that fan travel plays a big part in this stuff. Have you seen some of these games? ESPN events such as Orlando, PR, Anaheim, and Charleston usually have good fields and the bleachers are practically empty. I've watched some really good PR games where there couldn't have been more than 100 people in the stands. Same goes for the other venues. Now, occassionally you see a team bring a big traveling party but that's rare. Nobody is going to turn down Maui. I just hope we aren't turning down Puerto Rico or Orlando for example. Orlando would be pretty cool since we play at Miami on the off day of that event. You could watch the bball team on Thu, and Fri, make the drive down I95 for the football game on Saturday then back up to Orlando on Sunday. That would be awesome.

 

[levance2]

I disagree that fan travel plays a big part in this stuff. Have you seen some of these games? ESPN events such as Orlando, PR, Anaheim, and Charleston usually have good fields and the bleachers are practically empty.

This is totally dependent upon the event and the purpose of the event. Maui exists nearly solely as a reason to bring in tourists, staying at "team hotels" paying inflated rates (I know from experience...) even outside of the typical tourist season. That is why Atlantis is growing so rapidly. The owner of that resort is pumping a lot of money and publicity into it, because they stand to make a lot on the back end if it ends up as a big deal.

Compare that to our Legends event in Brooklyn. Barclays gets some revenue and demonstrates that there was reason to even build a complex there at all, but Barclays or Gazelle make nothing from your travel, lodging, meals, etc. There are thousands of options for you. Gazelle only has to turn a profit as far as renting the venue, paying the teams, their travel, etc. being less than their gate take and television revenue. For the Gazelle and ESPN events, that is mainly 100% on the side of the TV revenue, so the gate take is almost meaningless.

The reason that Maui had a monster field a few years ago was because ESPN was trying to squeeze them on their television contract, so Maui pulled out all the stops to increase ratings before the negotiations. ESPN's own events will never be in that situation, and thus are basically on the same level as all the terrible bowls that exist: as long as they make slightly more revenue than cost, ESPN comes out ahead. ESPN really has no reason to care about attendance because their focus is on TV eyeballs.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

This is totally dependent upon the event and the purpose of the event. Maui exists nearly solely as a reason to bring in tourists, staying at "team hotels" paying inflated rates (I know from experience...) even outside of the typical tourist season. That is why Atlantis is growing so rapidly. The owner of that resort is pumping a lot of money and publicity into it, because they stand to make a lot on the back end if it ends up as a big deal.

Compare that to our Legends event in Brooklyn. Barclays gets some revenue and demonstrates that there was reason to even build a complex there at all, but Barclays or Gazelle make nothing from your travel, lodging, meals, etc. There are thousands of options for you. Gazelle only has to turn a profit as far as renting the venue, paying the teams, their travel, etc. being less than their gate take and television revenue. For the Gazelle and ESPN events, that is mainly 100% on the side of the TV revenue, so the gate take is almost meaningless.

The reason that Maui had a monster field a few years ago was because ESPN was trying to squeeze them on their television contract, so Maui pulled out all the stops to increase ratings before the negotiations. ESPN's own events will never be in that situation, and thus are basically on the same level as all the terrible bowls that exist: as long as they make slightly more revenue than cost, ESPN comes out ahead. ESPN really has no reason to care about attendance because their focus is on TV eyeballs.

Everybody would rather have fans travel to their venues than not. Obviously. But with such limited seating available at places like Maui and Atlantis, choosing Louisville over Pitt because they will bring 500 fans and Pitt will only bring 200 doesn't play as much into the equation like a bowl game choosing Louisville over Pitt because Louisville will bring 10,000 while Pitt brings 2,000. So, while fan travel plays a part in which teams get selected, its a very very very small part.

These tournaments make most of their money off of TV revenue and anybody in the seats is just a bonus. Atlantis and Maui have the extra incentive to fill hotel rooms but those are pretty much the only tournaments who would even care about fan travel and even then, its not a whole lot. ESPN could care less if anybody shows up to their events. The crowds at some of those things are beyond depressing. Its quite a sight to see such a high level game being played in front of 300 people, just bizarre.........which again is why I see cancel them and move the games to campus.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

some updates

http://www.gazellegroup.com/events/gotham/news/2015/gotham_180815.htm

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

some updates

http://www.gazellegroup.com/events/gotham/news/2015/gotham_180815.htm

Say what you want about the NCAA, but they are very nice to allow these companies to profit off of D1 regular season college basketball. They outsource 4 games per year to private companies. I think its totally stupid but that's me.

Instead of the Gazelle Group profiting off of all these games, I'd personally the NCAA just allow teams to play 31 games any way they want to do it. If they want to go to Hawaii or China or the Virgin Islands, fine but they get no "exemption."

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Say what you want about the NCAA, but they are very nice to allow these companies to profit off of D1 regular season college basketball. They outsource 4 games per year to private companies. I think its totally stupid but that's me.

Instead of the Gazelle Group profiting off of all these games, I'd personally the NCAA just allow teams to play 31 games any way they want to do it. If they want to go to Hawaii or China or the Virgin Islands, fine but they get no "exemption."

I'll assure you, it's not charity.
the NCAA gets their cut.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I'll assure you, it's not charity.
the NCAA gets their cut.

Possibly but I would prefer if, for example, kept all the revenue from playing the 3 cupcake home games plus the MSG game against Davidson. You know, Pitt/Dav/MSG split the gate without having to pay the Gazelle execs. Major D1 teams don't need middle-men.