The Pens how did we get here, how to fix it?

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Honestly, I don't know the latter. I really don't. I looked at this year's UFA list and it is HORRIBLE. AWFUL! Teams aren't letting many good players get to market. We don't have a #1 pick again, and now man...if you miss the playoffs that is a lottery eligible pick.

How did this one time potential dynasty get here? Well it is obvious, injuries. Having Dupuis (healthy) on Sid's wing along with say Hornquist, and then Geno with Perron and Kunitz, Comeau on the 3rd line well that is an improvement. Having a healthy Kris Letang and Christian Erhoff would be nice, a healthy Olli Maata would be really nice. Still....is that a cup favorite team?

This started way back, way way back with Ray Shero. Shero's best and most lauded draft choice was Jordan Staal. He was drafted 2nd overall Jonathan Toews and Nicklas Backstrom were the next two picks. So.......was that such a great pick in hindsight? Staal burst onto the scene though and was a big part of the Stanley Cup teams. He also scored 29 goals his second year. More on him later.

I appreciate to "going for it" attitude the Pens have had at the trade deadlines. Giving away 1st, 2nd and 3rd rd choices like they are potato chips. I am not going to go "the Pens should have drafted player A instead of player B" on Shero's draft choices, but the overall philosophy. What draft choices the Pens had under Shero's tenure, they tended to up for "puck moving defensemen", stock piling them for trading for pieces. Sometimes it really worked out like Goligoski for Neal or Whitney for Kunitz. But the Pens continue to go this route almost to a fault. A lot of these guys are part of trade packages.

Guys like Maata and Pouillot are going to be top players. And the players like Martin maybe precluded the need to give Letang a big contract instead of maybe moving him (or moving Martin) for some other needed pieces. But again, that is not why they are here. Gratuitous trades for Doug Crankshack and Brendan Morrow were unnecessary and wastes. The Iginla trade was a waste, but the guys they gave up aren't in the NHL. And therein lies the problem.

Even in the years without 1st or 2nd rounders, the Pens late round picks have lacked a real plan and lacked an understanding of the NHL today. Rarely are you going to get extreme skill guys in the mid to later rounds, usually that is where you are picking up your bottom six forwards, bigger guys, physical guys, but guys not as skilled. So the Pens basically drafted "fast" but smurfs in the later rounds, guys with limited upside and guys not really with the physical makeup to be 3rd or 4th liners. So....

The Pens have had to spend an inordinate amount of resources (draft choices or salary) to fill out their 3rd line instead of having cheap internal options. So they trade for guys like Spaling, Winnik, Lapierre, sign a Comeau, and also because of this, and because of the lack of top 6 options, you are playing bottom 6 wingers like Kunitz, Dupuis and Comeau in the top 6. The one legit 1st rd talent they had to plug into a top 6 role, they never have. Never did. Of course he couldn't stay healthy, but he had creativity and talent and now they have managed to turn him into a mucker and grinder of which he sucks at, and seems to lost his skill sets.

The Pens have been beholden and loyal to too many players. Scuderi comes to mind. Kunitz and Dupuis are others. One of those two would be okay, but both have hampered them cap wise.

The injuries, the cap situation and the lack of depth are a by product of the previous regime. The one unbelievable move Shero made was somehow convincing a team to take free agent to be Jordan Staal, and giving them a 1st rd pick and a 3rd line center in return. Shero fleeced Carolina, Sutter has put up the same numbers as Staal has. And we go hire the guy Shero fleeced.

I see you bought the jumbo size can of charcoal lighter fluid. Smart.

 

[vegasgreed]

didn't winnik cost us our 2nd round as well?
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by vegasgreed:
didn't winnik cost us our 2nd round as well?

Posted from Rivals Mobile

Yep. We keep on filling these roles via trades and expensive free agents (considering the role) and because of this, we have no prospects to fill these roles and promote on low cost Entry level contracts.

It is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

[gary2]

Problems with the Penguins

1) (You alluded to it with the lower round draft picks) The Penguins do not understand the value of physical play. The Penguins are the most penalized team because they retaliate and complain. The way the NHL is officiated the original hit, slash or cross check is never called, We have so may stars injured because we do not protect our stars. The recent games with St.Louis and the game where the ref did not blow the whistle when Fleury seemingly had control of the puck, demonstrate we are not tough enough in front of the net.

2) The Pens did not understand situational play. In a recent game the Pens were up 3-1 (I think) and our opponent pulled their goalie with 3 minutes to go. We immediately started to chase the empty net goal instead of being content to defend and gave up a goal to make it 3-2. We had to sweat out the last minutes and a half. In the recent Columbus game we were up 2-0. All we needed to do was play a smart road game. Get the puck out, reach the red line, get it deep. Rinse and repeat. Instead, Crosby (who is the culprit of this often) makes a drop pass turnover. The opponent did not score on their opportunity, but Pittsburgh's style had changed from playing the classic road game back to a less intelligent, more loosey, goosey kind of game. Perron turned it over going up the middle for one goal, and it was tied before the end of the period. There is no excuse for this kind of play. It is just stupid and no Pens coach has been able to do anything about it. I guess Crosby just needs to get his points regardless of the outcome.

These two deficits have been going on for years. No coach or GM has been able to end them. It is a mindset with this team. I do not think the lack of importance on physical play will ever end. Lemieux wants to his team to be a skilled team. I do not think the need for situational play will ever be meet until Crosby is gone. Crosby needs to score. Crosby needs to play a dangerous offensive game. The situation does not matter to him, He will continue to make dangerous drop passes, he will continue to attempt to protect the puck with his body while dragging it under attack at the blue line when he works the point on the power play. He will continue to attempt very difficult diagonal passes on the power play. He just does not understand things like headman the puck, get the puck deep, use the wall, shoot the puck - Keep it simple (and low risk). He is the captain. He leads, the rest follow. 2-0 regular season leads become losses. His mindset does not change in the playoffs. Lemieux would play basically half the ice during the regular season but he came all the way back and became the team's best defensive player in the playoffs. Crosby is unable to make the adjustment from a wide open regular season to a tight checking game. He is only able to play one way and that is the problem.

 

[Las Panteras]

Who gives a f%$k......

These bums will be teeing off before May 1st

 

[wbrpanther]

Many reasons for getting to this place. It has been a very strange year injury wise. right now there are 6 players this team cannot afford to have off the ice. Fleury, Crosby, Malkin, Hornquist, Sutter and LeTang. A few weeks back we finally got the pieces back and were good to go and the Pens got hit with another round when we lost Malkin, LeTang and Hornquist for varying amounts of time.

The possibility is there that this team can catch fire in the playoffs like the Kings have done. But now there is a very real chance of not even making the playoffs. Tonight's game is megahuge. Beat the Sens and the Pens are in. Lose tonight and the weight on their shoulders this weekend will be unbearable.

 

[wbrpanther]

The subject line very clearly tells you this is an off topic thread about the Pens. If you don't give a f**k why butt in at all.

 

[gary2]

See the above.

3-0 Pens = Pens on power play - Pouliot attempts to make a risky play at blue line - short handed goal 3-1

3-1 Pens - Crosby attempts a center pass in his own zone (instead of going up the wall) - puck bounces off Winnek - 3-2

3-2 Ottawa goalie off the ice - Sutter loses faceoff - Crosby has a chance to clear,(I do not know what he is trying to do?) fans on the puck 3-3 - Why aren't Adams or Winnek on the ice? I believe they go all out to make the safe play there, get to that puck and clear it.

Like I said - No understanding of situational play - Typical Penguins

 

[Piranha]

It's all Bylsma's fault.

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

I'm not going to actually look through rosters, but how many teams have 3rd and 4th lines with actual homegrown players?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Piranha:
It's all Bylsma's fault.

Right now I would fire Mike Johnston. Last night.....just insane.

 

[Pitt79]

It was particularly ridiculous last night, the game wasn't broadcast in my area, so I check my NHL app for the score, it's 3-0 Pens 14 minutes into the game, and I'm thinking WOW! they finally are playing a good game, then WTF... MAJOR COLLAPSE, this game, this whole season, really this whole franchise has been on a downhill skid since 2013, everyone thought they had the Cup sewn up in that short season, they dominated the regular season going 36-12-0, breeze through two rounds of playoffs, then Boston destroys them! Since then it's been shaky at best. This season, they came out the gate strong, if you remember, the opened the season scoring 7 and 6 goals the 1st 2 games and seemed reenergized, but since January 1st, it's been a downhill slide. Injuries play a part, but they also play poorly, turn over the puck a lot, can't hold leads in regualtion, etc. It's amazing their record is as good as it is.

 

[Pitt79]

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Originally posted by Piranha:
It's all Bylsma's fault.

Right now I would fire Mike Johnston. Last night.....just insane.

Seriously, I would too, why was he hired in the 1st place, I mean a Jr. league coach to coach 2 of the tope players in the world? And try to balance that with surrounding them with the proper cast? What did they see in him? Maybe typical Pittsburgh... he'd be CHEAP!

 

[vegasgreed]

the pens team is devoid of leadership. don't confuse talent and leadership. there is a difference.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Good post, rivals. You have your finger on a number of the problems facing the team.

I have no idea why people are blaming Sidney Crosby for this? It is true that he does make mistakes in his own zone and in his own zone that lead to chances/goals against. However, those same risky plays are also what lead to Pittsburgh's few scoring chances. This is a team that struggles to score or even generate opportunities and they basically have two guys on the entire roster who can do that. It seems beyond ridiculous to me to only count the turnovers in the neutral zone and not the wonderful plays too.

I've said this before and this gets under people skin but that's just too bad. Sidney Crosby and Geno Malkin are literally the least of Pittsburgh's problems. It is so weird to me for people to look at the roster loaded with the likes of Beau Bennett, Daniel Winnik, Craig Adams, Rob Scuderi, Chris Kunitz, etc. and turn around and blame the only two guys that ever do anything.

On Ottawa's second goal last night, Crosby made the correct play because the Sens - who support the puck extremely well - pinned two guys against the wall and they were closing in on 87. Daniel Winnik inexplicably could not handle a fairly soft backhand pass. Then, he complicated matters by making soup of his defensive responsibilities. That was not Crosby's fault, it was clearly Winnick's fault.

The reason they had Crosby and Sutter on the ice for Hoffman goal was because Pittsburgh needed to win that face off. Therefore, they put their two best face-off guys out there in case one was booted from the circle. Sutter was on his strong side and he needs to win that face-off. At the very least he needs to fight to a draw. Instead, he was beaten cleanly. That clearly surprised Crosby who anticipated a 50-50 tight battle and instead was greeted with a clean win by Ottawa, which led to Hoffman's excellent shot from near the blue line.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely times where 87 does reckless things in crucial situations. However, all great players do that. Lemieux did it, Gretzky did it, and Crosby does it too.

In a few years, some incredibly lucky franchise is going to be complaining about Connor McDavid taking too many chances in crucial situations and some other rocket scientist will say that the Buffalo Sabres or the Edmonton Oilers or the Phoenix coyotes or whomever, will only take the next up whenever they finally trade away McDavid for draft prospects.

I certainly don't think the Crosby is above reproach. However, when I look at this roster and I hear people complaining mostly about the guy who is by far the best player on it, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. 87 and 71 are basically the difference between who we are now and the Buffalo Sabres.

 

[Las Panteras]

After last night,

I stand by my statement.

This team will be teeing off by May 1


If not sooner.....................

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
Good post, rivals. You have your finger on a number of the problems facing the team.

I have no idea why people are blaming Sidney Crosby for this? It is true that he does make mistakes in his own zone and in his own zone that lead to chances/goals against. However, those same risky plays are also what lead to Pittsburgh's few scoring chances. This is a team that struggles to score or even generate opportunities and they basically have two guys on the entire roster who can do that. It seems beyond ridiculous to me to only count the turnovers in the neutral zone and not the wonderful plays too.

I've said this before and this gets under people skin but that's just too bad. Sidney Crosby and Geno Malkin are literally the least of Pittsburgh's problems. It is so weird to me for people to look at the roster loaded with the likes of Beau Bennett, Daniel Winnik, Craig Adams, Rob Scuderi, Chris Kunitz, etc. and turn around and blame the only two guys that ever do anything.

On Ottawa's second goal last night, Crosby made the correct play because the Sens - who support the puck extremely well - pinned two guys against the wall and they were closing in on 87. Daniel Winnik inexplicably could not handle a fairly soft backhand pass. Then, he complicated matters by making soup of his defensive responsibilities. That was not Crosby's fault, it was clearly Winnick's fault.

The reason they had Crosby and Sutter on the ice for Hoffman goal was because Pittsburgh needed to win that face off. Therefore, they put their two best face-off guys out there in case one was booted from the circle. Sutter was on his strong side and he needs to win that face-off. At the very least he needs to fight to a draw. Instead, he was beaten cleanly. That clearly surprised Crosby who anticipated a 50-50 tight battle and instead was greeted with a clean win by Ottawa, which led to Hoffman's excellent shot from near the blue line.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely times where 87 does reckless things in crucial situations. However, all great players do that. Lemieux did it, Gretzky did it, and Crosby does it too.

In a few years, some incredibly lucky franchise is going to be complaining about Connor McDavid taking too many chances in crucial situations and some other rocket scientist will say that the Buffalo Sabres or the Edmonton Oilers or the Phoenix coyotes or whomever, will only take the next up whenever they finally trade away McDavid for draft prospects.

I certainly don't think the Crosby is above reproach. However, when I look at this roster and I hear people complaining mostly about the guy who is by far the best player on it, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. 87 and 71 are basically the difference between who we are now and the Buffalo Sabres.

On the tying goal. We know the situation. Sure, a face off win would be nice. And Sutter who just lost the previous one is a curious choice to take this one in the same faceoff circle. Because of the save by MAF on the previous play, Mike Johnston sends out Sid and Kunitz along with Sutter and sits Bennett and Winnick (rightfully so). Sid makes sense because he is another Center in case Sutter gets waved out. Kunitz's job as a winger is to go out and defend the point shot. Now you can argue Sid should take the draw or even bring in Lapierre, but again that is Monday morning quarterbacking.

Sutter loses the draw, Turris draws it back to the point, and the Sens point guy Hoffman buries it. If you look at the highlights of that play.......Kunitz gets out to the point and waves at the shot attempt. Season on the line. He blocks it, the Pens gain possession likely game over and season saved...playoffs. He waved at it. He didn't sell out. WTF? That is not on Sid or Geno or Fleury. It is on a guy (again why was he out there and not an Adams where this is where he is worth something) and why didn't he lay out and either block or force the pointman to do something else other than have a clean shooting lane to the short side of all spots?

That is what is missing from this club. The worker bees aren't even doing the most mundane things.

Any other year, at this point I would wish they miss the playoffs just because they earned it, but they gave up their 1st rd pick and I don't want the unthinkable to happen.

The talent level is so bad out there. You have #6 defensemen (two of them) logging 25+ minutes because of their predicament. I can write off this season to injuries, but again...you traded your #1 pick (and #2 pick)......

That being said, they have scored first in the last 4 games. They have had two goal leads a 3 goal lead. Yes, there is nothing left in the tank, but the Pens haven't scored a goal, a single goal these past 4 games after the 1st period. In desperation.

Honestly, I have no answers. They have to make the playoffs. They just have to. There is no silver lining like a higher draft pick to sooth the wounds. And they can get players back, They can call up from WBS at will once the playoffs begin. Just as they have been bad and unlucky and putrid this past month, come playoff time, you win a game you shouldn't, you can get on a role.

So...desperate times. I fire Mike Johnston. Now. Sure it sucks, sure it is not all his fault but he has no answers. He likely gets fired anyways after this season. Do it right now, shake things up. It would be an ultimate sort of a "time out" to try and change the momentum. I don't know what else to do, and in hockey we have seen coaches fired for much less. Again, not blaming MJ, but he also apparently doesn't have the answer either.

 

[OriginalEther]

Originally posted by Pitt79:

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Seriously, I would too, why was he hired in the 1st place, I mean a Jr. league coach to coach 2 of the tope players in the world? And try to balance that with surrounding them with the proper cast? What did they see in him? Maybe typical Pittsburgh... he'd be CHEAP!

No. If anything, the Pens would be better off if they had been cheap [with some player contracts].

This isn't college, where poaching a guy from another team is a viable option. Can anyone think of an example where a coach - who wasn't on the hot seat - left a pro job for another pro job that paid more?
Almost all head coaches hired are either assistants, former head coaches, or a combination of both.

I think the outside the box choice had more to do with Shero being fired after the 2nd round, then them taking forever to decide whether keep Byslma or not.

As for the team itself, gee, what a mess. We're certainly paying for the future is now mentality for the past 6 years years, among other things.

 

[Panther Parrothead]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:

I certainly don't think the Crosby is above reproach. However, when I look at this roster and I hear people complaining mostly about the guy who is by far the best player on it, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. 87 and 71 are basically the difference between who we are now and the Buffalo Sabres.

The biggest problem with Sid is that he's not Mario. Because he's the Pens' best player and is paid accordingly, fans expect a Mario-like performance from him.

People don't understand (or forget) that being a great hockey doesn't always mean the greatest. Mario could (and did) carry a team on his back. Anyone who thinks that Sid has to do that, too, will always be disappointed with Sid's play.

As you said, if you think the Pens are struggling now, imagine how much worse they'd be minus Sid.

 

[Pitt79]

Originally posted by OriginalEther:

We're certainly paying for the future is now mentality for the past 6 years years, among other things.

But it was the right choice 2 years ago, when they traded for Iginla, they seemed to be set up for an epic run, that Boston meltdown surprised everyone. Don't tell me you didn't expect to at least reach the final that year?

 

[OriginalEther]

Oh, I agree with idea. I think a lot of people don't realize how difficult it is to win the Stanley Cup (or Super Bowl, World Series, etc). So if you have a chance, you got to go for it.

The problem is that, as you stated, despite all those moves, the Pens never came remotely close to winning the Cup again.

 

[CougarClaws]

OK - I am a former player, and an obsessed fan since 1981. I put money down on the Pens winning their first Cup before the playoffs started, and I lost a nice chunk of change when the best team we ever fielded got upset by the Islanders. Here's my take, it's a complicated issue with a complicated answer.

First of all Recruits nailed it on the drafting. "I'll take ALL the puck moving defenseman is a failed model. And we could not ever seem to develop a forward. I do have to say though the 2012 draft with Pouliot, Matta, Sundqvist, Murray looks quite intriguing. I also like Wilson,Rust, & Harrington down in Wilkes-Barre. Too little too late though. I hated Shero's dislike of Eruo players - a huge amount of talent comes from there, and we didn't even invest in scouting it for many years.

a bigger problem with the youngsters though is development. Honestly I love what we do in WBS with the kids, but when they come up to Pittsburgh there is no plan of development, and actually much worse - no patience. Young players require patience, and management's commitment to building there confidence. Usually only star players make much of an impact in there first 120 or so NHL games. Also - youngsters often need "protected" from the Craig Adams' of the world afraid of losing their jobs. This has mos def been a problem on the Pens. You have to build these kids up, something the organization never was committed to in the Pens "win-now no matter what environment."

Second of all Dam Bylsma was a disaster as a Coach. He hated youth and skill, was a poor bench coach, inflexible to change, arrogant, did not believe in protecting the front of our net, and did not demand his players go to the net on offense. Worst of all though is he allowed the "Country Club" atmosphere of the mid-90's to return, with a lot of help from Shero, and probably Mario. In Big League sports it is rare that players can be successful policing themselves. Allowing this environment to persist for half a decade makes it hugely difficult to change.

After the Cup win (RS did a lot of things right early on) Shero became friends with his players. He hung out with them, partied with them, he loved them. Other than Gologoski - he never traded a roster player in-season, a telling thing IMO. It's the biggest reason Ray had to go IMO. He never did let Bylsma go, which most GM'S would have done after watching the post Flyers series press interviews by DB. Instead, Dan got to do even more damage to this team for not one, but two more years. That right there crushed this team's spirit and desire.

Certainly you can criticize a lot of management's decisions since Shero was fired (in particular hiring a head coach with no track record of holding players accountable). However, what ails this team is a strong lack of commitment. The Pens players are just too comfortable. Yes we are short some players, and some leaders for sure, but this teams problems would be solved fairly quickly with a strong experienced coach, and managment/ownership that has his back. It's often not easy to hire one of those guys, but get that sorted out (by the time Rutherford got down to interviews last year there were none left), and the talent is there to at least contend.

I could also get into this organization's total 180 from signing the kind of physical, mean, tough players that won them a Cup, but I don't feel like writing anymore. The main thing is good coaching, and the discipline it would bring, however it would be nice to see this team actually adapting to the way the game is called and bring in some big physical guys. Not sure if Mario's ego will allow it after he got bitch-slapped by the hockey world back in 11.





This post was edited on 4/8 1:56 PM by CougarClaws

This post was edited on 4/8 2:10 PM by CougarClaws

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

For anyone thinking that the pens should hire mike babcock:

Why the hell would he want to bother coaching this team?

 

[CougarClaws]

While Babcock is just one of probably 9 or 10 coaches that could fix this mess, the answer to your question is his love affaire with Sidney Crosby. And of course - a very strong core to build around. And lots of $$$.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Pitt79:

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Originally posted by Piranha:
It's all Bylsma's fault.

Right now I would fire Mike Johnston. Last night.....just insane.

Seriously, I would too, why was he hired in the 1st place, I mean a Jr. league coach to coach 2 of the tope players in the world? And try to balance that with surrounding them with the proper cast? What did they see in him? Maybe typical Pittsburgh... he'd be CHEAP!

You are not a college graduate are you? You are pretty dumb. Why would a team spend to the Cap (where they are constrained) then be "cheap" with the coach where there is no cap concerns? Think before you friggin post. Or I will ban you from posting in my threads.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Panther Parrothead:

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:

I certainly don't think the Crosby is above reproach. However, when I look at this roster and I hear people complaining mostly about the guy who is by far the best player on it, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. 87 and 71 are basically the difference between who we are now and the Buffalo Sabres.

The biggest problem with Sid is that he's not Mario. Because he's the Pens' best player and is paid accordingly, fans expect a Mario-like performance from him.

People don't understand (or forget) that being a great hockey doesn't always mean the greatest. Mario could (and did) carry a team on his back. Anyone who thinks that Sid has to do that, too, will always be disappointed with Sid's play.

As you said, if you think the Pens are struggling now, imagine how much worse they'd be minus Sid.

That and it is a different sport now. Mario was so good, so physically overwhelming over most anyone who played against him, they were mere children. Now, these players are so big and strong. I agree with you, and I am guilty of the same, comparing 87 with 66 and that is just not fair.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Great stuff Cougar. Really great stuff I will add my own thoughts because I am a loudmouth and yes, I too played and not just that, I have been a long time fan, seeing Mario's first game, taking French in JR high because I thought French Canadian hockey players were cool.



Originally posted by CougarClaws:
OK - I am a former player, and an obsessed fan since 1981. I put money down on the Pens winning their first Cup before the playoffs started, and I lost a nice chunk of change when the best team we ever fielded got upset by the Islanders. Here's my take, it's a complicated issue with a complicated answer.

The issue isn't that complicated IMO, but the answer is extremely complicated.

First of all Recruits nailed it on the drafting. "I'll take ALL the puck moving defenseman is a failed model. And we could not ever seem to develop a forward. I do have to say though the 2012 draft with Pouliot, Matta, Sundqvist, Murray looks quite intriguing. I also like Wilson,Rust, & Harrington down in Wilkes-Barre. Too little too late though. I hated Shero's dislike of Eruo players - a huge amount of talent comes from there, and we didn't even invest in scouting it for many years.

Yeah....Maatta has turned out looking like he is going to be a star. Pouillot could be. But if you were planning to sign Letang long term, you had Martin, Despres, etc...in hand, and you desperately needed forwards, why would you not draft Filip Forsberg instead of Pouillot? And aside from the traded picks, when you are picking 4th rd and beyond, you draft Euros for skill and if you are drafting North American forwards, you draft big kids who can project as 3rd and 4th liners.

a bigger problem with the youngsters though is development. Honestly I love what we do in WBS with the kids, but when they come up to Pittsburgh there is no plan of development, and actually much worse - no patience. Young players require patience, and management's commitment to building there confidence. Usually only star players make much of an impact in there first 120 or so NHL games. Also - youngsters often need "protected" from the Craig Adams' of the world afraid of losing their jobs. This has mos def been a problem on the Pens. You have to build these kids up, something the organization never was committed to in the Pens "win-now no matter what environment."

Afriggingmen! Beau Bennett is ruined (IMO) because he was so jerked around. Despres would make a give away and be scratched for 5 games, Engelland would make a give away and be put out there the next shift. This year is a bit different because of injuries but in year's past, my god, you knew you were in the playoffs, why the Pens did not feel compelled to give some of these younger guys like Bennett, Despres more roles and experience just never made sense.

Second of all Dam Bylsma was a disaster as a Coach. He hated youth and skill, was a poor bench coach, inflexible to change, arrogant, did not believe in protecting the front of our net, and did not demand his players go to the net on offense. Worst of all though is he allowed the "Country Club" atmosphere of the mid-90's to return, with a lot of help from Shero, and probably Mario. In Big League sports it is rare that players can be successful policing themselves. Allowing this environment to persist for half a decade makes it hugely difficult to change.

This is true. Unfortunately. I am surprised Mario let this go on. This is why I wanted so bad to get a player like Ryan Kesler. Kesler is a bastard, he is an in your face type of teammate, no nonsense. Isn't it ironic that obvious with their pursuit of him, that Shero and company saw the need for a leader like this, but still didn't do anything else to address this "country club"?

After the Cup win (RS did a lot of things right early on) Shero became friends with his players. He hung out with them, partied with them, he loved them. Other than Gologoski - he never traded a roster player in-season, a telling thing IMO. It's the biggest reason Ray had to go IMO. He never did let Bylsma go, which most GM'S would have done after watching the post Flyers series press interviews by DB. Instead, Dan got to do even more damage to this team for not one, but two more years. That right there crushed this team's spirit and desire.

Personally, I liked Ray Shero and Dan Bylsma. They were likeable guys. I think that was part of the problem, they were good guys, and no one wants to see good guys fired. It is now obvious that at least Bylsma should have been fired after the Boston series, if not the year before. You know when he should have been fired, when Shero went out and stole Hall of Famer Jarome Iginla to play with Sid and/or Geno and Bylsma let Crosby dictate linemates and relegated a Hall of Fame to be LW to a 3rd line RW role. His off wing. Why didn't Shero jump all over Bylsma to play him where he was a superstar? The fact that Iginla was one of 10 wingers in the NHL to score over 30 goals the next year as a Bruin showed he still had a lot in the tank. My other problem with Bylsma was his reluctance to match lines and his refusal to protect Sid.

Certainly you can criticize a lot of management's decisions since Shero was fired (in particular hiring a head coach with no track record of holding players accountable). However, what ails this team is a strong lack of commitment. The Pens players are just too comfortable. Yes we are short some players, and some leaders for sure, but this teams problems would be solved fairly quickly with a strong experienced coach, and managment/ownership that has his back. It's often not easy to hire one of those guys, but get that sorted out (by the time Rutherford got down to interviews last year there were none left), and the talent is there to at least contend. I could also get into this organization's total 180 from signing the kind of physical, mean, tough players that won them a Cup, but I don't feel like writing anymore. The main thing is good coaching, and the discipline it would bring, however it would be nice to see this team actually adapting to the way the game is called and bring in some big physical guys. Not sure if Mario's ego will allow it after he got bitch-slapped by the hockey world back in 11.


This is difficult. I know they are committed to "the core". But you have to wonder about this, as the sport isn't about skill anymore. Not for the most part. So is it really necessary now to have both Sid and Geno? That being said...

Yes, I agree the Pens are just poorly constructed for today's game. Small, not physical, and Mario should not worry about being labled a hypocrite, as they say "when in Rome..."

And you are right....because of timing, coaching and GM candidates were gone (I really, really wanted Laviollette) and so Mario was limited.

My problem I don't think Johnston is the guy. I just don't see it. I would fire him now, go with Tocchet and Agnew then this offseason look at a Babcock or McClelland.

The other problem going forward is this year's UFA crop is horse crap.

This post was edited on 4/8 1:56 PM by CougarClaws

This post was edited on 4/8 2:10 PM by CougarClaws

 

[CougarClaws]

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Great stuff Cougar. Really great stuff I will add my own thoughts because I am a loudmouth and yes, I too played and not just that, I have been a long time fan, seeing Mario's first game, taking French in JR high because I thought French Canadian hockey players were cool.



Originally posted by CougarClaws:
OK - I am a former player, and an obsessed fan since 1981. I put money down on the Pens winning their first Cup before the playoffs started, and I lost a nice chunk of change when the best team we ever fielded got upset by the Islanders. Here's my take, it's a complicated issue with a complicated answer.

The issue isn't that complicated IMO, but the answer is extremely complicated.

First of all Recruits nailed it on the drafting. "I'll take ALL the puck moving defenseman is a failed model. And we could not ever seem to develop a forward. I do have to say though the 2012 draft with Pouliot, Matta, Sundqvist, Murray looks quite intriguing. I also like Wilson,Rust, & Harrington down in Wilkes-Barre. Too little too late though. I hated Shero's dislike of Eruo players - a huge amount of talent comes from there, and we didn't even invest in scouting it for many years.

Yeah....Maatta has turned out looking like he is going to be a star. Pouillot could be. But if you were planning to sign Letang long term, you had Martin, Despres, etc...in hand, and you desperately needed forwards, why would you not draft Filip Forsberg instead of Pouillot? And aside from the traded picks, when you are picking 4th rd and beyond, you draft Euros for skill and if you are drafting North American forwards, you draft big kids who can project as 3rd and 4th liners.

Maatta was a great pick for sure, but I am exceedingly concerned for his future. Major surgery on the same shoulder twice in one year has ruined a number of careers. Worse yet - they killed his thyroid to get the cancer which means he is on thyroid med the rest of his life. Those med are notoriously hard to get right, and then your body changes a little and you are back to square one, exhaustion often being a big issue. Few pro players have been successful with this problem. You could see it when he came back - before the shoulder went again. He was off his game and played fair at best hockey. As a result, I have lowered his expected ceiling from a potential #1 D to a #4. I was at the Coalsack for the draft. A few months before, both McGuire & McKenzie had mentioned how the Pens had fallen in love with Pouliot while keeping tabs on Joe Morrow, so I new what was coming. I was still crossing fingers they would take Forseburg, and you could literally hear the air going out of the building when they announced the pick. Your drafting philosophy is top shelf. My Handle on Hockey's Future is "Gallatin" BTW...


a bigger problem with the youngsters though is development. Honestly I love what we do in WBS with the kids, but when they come up to Pittsburgh there is no plan of development, and actually much worse - no patience. Young players require patience, and management's commitment to building there confidence. Usually only star players make much of an impact in there first 120 or so NHL games. Also - youngsters often need "protected" from the Craig Adams' of the world afraid of losing their jobs. This has mos def been a problem on the Pens. You have to build these kids up, something the organization never was committed to in the Pens "win-now no matter what environment."

Afriggingmen! Beau Bennett is ruined (IMO) because he was so jerked around. Despres would make a give away and be scratched for 5 games, Engelland would make a give away and be put out there the next shift. This year is a bit different because of injuries but in year's past, my god, you knew you were in the playoffs, why the Pens did not feel compelled to give some of these younger guys like Bennett, Despres more roles and experience just never made sense.
Bylsma had such a hard on for guys like himself who grinded their way to an NHL paycheck. At least that's a valid theory for his behavior. I have not given up on Bennett, he's playing a grinders game as ordered right now, while 15lbs under his normal playing weight due to all those crazy injuries the poor kid had. Look for him to show up in camp ready to impress a new staff, at 210lbs. This is one of the worst decisions management has made recently IMO. Even when he's not scoring Beau compliments Geno's game so well it makes "God Mode Malkin" a common sight. And let's not get too far down the whole of discussing the Pen's Asst GM's giving up on a 23 year old version of the hardest thing to find in this game; a big fast physical PMD...

Second of all Dam Bylsma was a disaster as a Coach. He hated youth and skill, was a poor bench coach, inflexible to change, arrogant, did not believe in protecting the front of our net, and did not demand his players go to the net on offense. Worst of all though is he allowed the "Country Club" atmosphere of the mid-90's to return, with a lot of help from Shero, and probably Mario. In Big League sports it is rare that players can be successful policing themselves. Allowing this environment to persist for half a decade makes it hugely difficult to change.

This is true. Unfortunately. I am surprised Mario let this go on. This is why I wanted so bad to get a player like Ryan Kesler. Kesler is a bastard, he is an in your face type of teammate, no nonsense. Isn't it ironic that obvious with their pursuit of him, that Shero and company saw the need for a leader like this, but still didn't do anything else to address this "country club"?
It would have just been wasted on these teams given the coaching situating IMO, and the cost in players and prospects would have guaranteed no help on the wing for 87 & 71.

After the Cup win (RS did a lot of things right early on) Shero became friends with his players. He hung out with them, partied with them, he loved them. Other than Gologoski - he never traded a roster player in-season, a telling thing IMO. It's the biggest reason Ray had to go IMO. He never did let Bylsma go, which most GM'S would have done after watching the post Flyers series press interviews by DB. Instead, Dan got to do even more damage to this team for not one, but two more years. That right there crushed this team's spirit and desire.

Personally, I liked Ray Shero and Dan Bylsma. They were likeable guys. I think that was part of the problem, they were good guys, and no one wants to see good guys fired. It is now obvious that at least Bylsma should have been fired after the Boston series, if not the year before. You know when he should have been fired, when Shero went out and stole Hall of Famer Jarome Iginla to play with Sid and/or Geno and Bylsma let Crosby dictate linemates and relegated a Hall of Fame to be LW to a 3rd line RW role. His off wing. Why didn't Shero jump all over Bylsma to play him where he was a superstar? The fact that Iginla was one of 10 wingers in the NHL to score over 30 goals the next year as a Bruin showed he still had a lot in the tank. My other problem with Bylsma was his reluctance to match lines and his refusal to protect Sid.
I was a big fan of Bylsma until I watched the post Flyers series interviews. Honestly I have never seen a Coach in any sport look that bad and not get canned. I never really gave up on Sheri as I focused all that frustration on the obvious problem DB was. And Sid while a great player, the dude is a zero as a leader. Notice lately Geno and Letang are finally trying to fill that void - a big positive sign if we can score a good coach.

Certainly you can criticize a lot of management's decisions since Shero was fired (in particular hiring a head coach with no track record of holding players accountable). However, what ails this team is a strong lack of commitment. The Pens players are just too comfortable. Yes we are short some players, and some leaders for sure, but this teams problems would be solved fairly quickly with a strong experienced coach, and managment/ownership that has his back. It's often not easy to hire one of those guys, but get that sorted out (by the time Rutherford got down to interviews last year there were none left), and the talent is there to at least contend. I could also get into this organization's total 180 from signing the kind of physical, mean, tough players that won them a Cup, but I don't feel like writing anymore. The main thing is good coaching, and the discipline it would bring, however it would be nice to see this team actually adapting to the way the game is called and bring in some big physical guys. Not sure if Mario's ego will allow it after he got bitch-slapped by the hockey world back in 11.


This is difficult. I know they are committed to "the core". But you have to wonder about this, as the sport isn't about skill anymore. Not for the most part. So is it really necessary now to have both Sid and Geno? That being said...

Yes, I agree the Pens are just poorly constructed for today's game. Small, not physical, and Mario should not worry about being labled a hypocrite, as they say "when in Rome..."

And you are right....because of timing, coaching and GM candidates were gone (I really, really wanted Laviollette) and so Mario was limited.

My problem I don't think Johnston is the guy. I just don't see it. I would fire him now, go with Tocchet and Agnew then this offseason look at a Babcock or McClelland.

The other problem going forward is this year's UFA crop is horse crap.
You can't trade Sid as he is the Face of the team and holds all the cards with a no movement clause. Montreal would never give up enough to justify the trade for us. 4 moderately big and moderately physical forwards would not be hard to get for the bottom six and would solve a lot if issues if we got a good coach. Lavi was my top choice as well. We agree on a lot of things hockeywise Recruits. In December I thought Johnston could succeed. After the Trade Deadline when we came out with nothing against Colorado I knew he was finished. And Tocchett is part of the problem IMO, I would role the dice today on that guy in WBS who doesn't tolerate passengers, and always has his team ready to play hard physical defensive hockey myself. But we will stick with Johnston and miss the playoffs with no protected 1st instead
This post was edited on 4/8 1:56 PM by CougarClaws
This post was edited on 4/8 2:10 PM by CougarClaws

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I disagree with a lot of this stuff. I think the whole country club atmosphere thing is just hogwash. What does it mean? How are they different than any other team? I don't think anyone of us can answer any of those questions.

Also, why would Sidney Crosby not want to play with Jarome Iginla? That makes no sense. You mean to tell me that the guy that he recorded arguably his greatest moment in hockey with, he did not want him? That doesn't make any sense.

The reason Pittsburgh acquired Iginla was to play him on the left side of either Crosby or Malkin. However, when he got here, it quickly became clear that he needed to play on the right side. The problem with that was that Neal was only effective on the right side and he is a better goal score than Iginla at this stage in their respective careers; and on the top line they had Dupuis on the right side.

Now, a lot of people saw that as a no-brainer. Iginla is definitely a better player than Dupuis. The problem there was a line of Kunitz/Crosby/Dupuis was the top scoring line in the NHL at the time of the trade. No coach in his right mind would break up the most productive line in the NHL just to make way for an over the hill former superstar.

The problem there was that it made no sense to trade for Iginla in the first place. He simply did not fit our stretch pass heavy system. We did not need another winger. What we needed was a defenseman who was better than Douglas Murray.

I will always see Sheto as a significantly worse GM then Bylsma was a poor coach. Everyone likes to stick it to Disco Dan but when you really look at it, he has some credibility. He was winning divisions with injury depleted lineups. Shero made a lot of moves that got a lot of hype but ultimately yielded very few significant results.

Shero inherited all of his best players and he failed to develop anyone behind them. He did a terrible job and he should've been fired years before he was.

I don't think the organization was impatient with Bennett or Despres. Rather, I think those guys are/were simply not good enough. However, because the rest of our organization is so bereft of young talent, fans put all of their eggs in those guys' respective baskets.

Personally, I see both of them as marginal NHL prospects and I think they would've been marginal prospects regardless of who was coaching/developing them.

 

[CougarClaws]

Recruits - Saw Mario's first game, first shift, first shot,first goal on a little rinky-dink 17 inch TV. So amazing! Tell me you weren't actually in the Gardens for that one or I will be so jelous...

 

[CougarClaws]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
I disagree with a lot of this stuff. I think the whole country club atmosphere thing is just hogwash. What does it mean? How are they different than any other team? I don't think anyone of us can answer any of those questions.

Also, why would Sidney Crosby not want to play with Jarome Iginla? That makes no sense. You mean to tell me that the guy that he recorded arguably his greatest moment in hockey with, he did not want him? That doesn't make any sense.

The reason Pittsburgh acquired Iginla was to play him on the left side of either Crosby or Malkin. However, when he got here, it quickly became clear that he needed to play on the right side. The problem with that was that Neal was only effective on the right side and he is a better goal score than Iginla at this stage in their respective careers; and on the top line they had Dupuis on the right side.

Now, a lot of people saw that as a no-brainer. Iginla is definitely a better player than Dupuis. The problem there was a line of Kunitz/Crosby/Dupuis was the top scoring line in the NHL at the time of the trade. No coach in his right mind would break up the most productive line in the NHL just to make way for an over the hill former superstar.

The problem there was that it made no sense to trade for Iginla in the first place. He simply did not fit our stretch pass heavy system. We did not need another winger. What we needed was a defenseman who was better than Douglas Murray.

I will always see Sheto as a significantly worse GM then Bylsma was a poor coach. Everyone likes to stick it to Disco Dan but when you really look at it, he has some credibility. He was winning divisions with injury depleted lineups. Shero made a lot of moves that got a lot of hype but ultimately yielded very few significant results.

Shero inherited all of his best players and he failed to develop anyone behind them. He did a terrible job and he should've been fired years before he was.

I don't think the organization was impatient with Bennett or Despres. Rather, I think those guys are/were simply not good enough. However, because the rest of our organization is so bereft of young talent, fans put all of their eggs in those guys' respective baskets.

Personally, I see both of them as marginal NHL prospects and I think they would've been marginal prospects regardless of who was coaching/developing them.

Ah the good Doctor chimes in. I will say while you seem to know more than I on football matters Von Yinzer - Recruits and I are just way ahead of you in hockey. There is a whole nother level to the game I didn't even get myself until I hit my 40's, no shame in not seeing the subtleties of the game when you are not gonzo for the sport.

That said the "Country Club" is a euphemism for when previously successful veteran players get treated as if they matter much much more than the coaches, who then cannot hold them to a standard of performance necessary to win Championships. Think back to when Stevens and Mario got GM Patrick to ban Coach Scotty Bowman from practices because he was too hard on the players. Is it any wonder we lost in the 2nd round instead of winning a 3rd Cup in a row with the undisputed best head coach the game has ever known. And 8 future Hall of Famers on the team...

Recently - you can look at how lazy aging unproductive vets way past their prime such as say - Chris Kunitz get all the ice-time over higher performing players this season as a symptom of the disease with our current team. Kunitz did not come into camp in the kind of shape management expected, has lost his desire, hands, and legs, yet often gets more ice-time than the 2nd best player in the League. And then the PR engine of the Pens (best in the state for sports BTW) breaks the story a few months back that he has been suffering from anemia. Please... You don't play a guy more minutes a night than Malkin when he has anemia, which BTW doesn't take 4 months to not-improve with today's medicine.

Yes folks I have to insist that unfortunately - the "Country Club" has done just fine under a rookie coach afraid of his veterans. At least he will be gone soon. And All-Talk Tocchett with him...

 

[CougarClaws]

And Von Yinzer - to answer a hockey question - Iggy got dropped off Sid's line for several reasons. 1st Dupuis while lacking the skill to compliment Crosby and Kunitz in tighter playoff hockey against good defensive teams in the 2nd Dead-Puck Era is the most popular and hardest working player on the team.

2nd - I went to Iginla's first game at the Coalsack, as I did Mario's 1st, Coffey's 1st, Barrasso's 1st, Mullen's 1st, Tocchet's 1st, Zubov's 1st, Malkin's 1st, Guerin's 1st at the Igloo. Iggy didn't "have it" in the physical effort based board work department right from the start as a Pen. While he fit right in with much of the team that year in this area of the game, you can't play with the most talented grinder ever and not win more than 30% of your board battles. No way they are moving Geno's BFF who scores half a goal per game to his off wing to accommodate the new Hall-of-Famer, not this "Country Club" thank you.

Honestly the biggest failure of the Iggy trade were the NHL scouts, and Bylsma for taking his cannon off the top power play so that Kunitz could get that ice-time. Iggy simply did not deserve to play with Sid, and the Country Club did the rest. If Neal would have committed to chasing down pucks in the corners and doing the dirty-work, that line could have succeeded. But he didn't, and Geno ended up having to play with no puck-retrievers, and it's obvious as day that's the best way to shut him down during 2nd Dead-Puck-Era playoff games against good teams.

And yes when that Orpik slapshot hit Sid in the Mouth a minute eighteen into the first Period of Iggy's first game the sound of it taking out his front teeth was the worst thing I ever experienced at a live game. Possibly Mario Faubert snapping his femur in half in an ice rut back in 81 comes close...

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I'll take your word for it on the knowledge thing. You are clearly an expert whereas I am still learning. As I have said a million times, I'm not an expert on any of this stuff - especially things I couldn't possibly know about like locker room culture. That is why I come here - to learn from the masters.

What specifically makes Pittsburgh's locker room a country club? Also, how would you know that? Further, what are other country clubs around the league? Is Chicago's locker room a country club? What about the Rangers' locker room? Is that a country club? Is LA's country club atmosphere why they are very likely going to miss the playoffs? If so, why didn't it harm them last year when they were winning the Stanley Cup?

Back in the early 90s, did Badger Bob run a country club in 1991 or did it only sprout up after he died? Further, I have long heard (off the record of course) that Scotty Bowman was battling depression at that time and often failed to show up to practices because he couldn't get out of bed. Is that all part of the country club atmosphere or is my hearsay less valid than yours?

As for locker room presence and power, of course Sidney Crosby has more pull within the organization than Johnston or Bylsma. The guy is the BEST HOCKEY PLAYER IN THE WORLD! Are you telling me that Alexander Ovechkin doesn't have more power than Barry Trotz or any of the 25 Caps coaches before him? John Tavares doesn't have as much power as Jack Capuano within the Islanders' organization? Henrik Lundqvist doesn't have more power than Alain Vigneault? I find that exceedingly difficult to believe.

To use a cross-sport parallel, are you telling me that LeBron James - the best basketball player in the world - doesn't have more power than Dave Blatt? Magic Johnson openly had Paul Westphal fired because he didn't like him personally. That was way back in the early 80s. It has worked like that ever since in every major sport. It is very naive to presume otherwise.

I think the term country club atmosphere is just some vague bullshitt people say without really stopping to think about it in any meaningful way. I don;t think Pittsburgh is appreciably different than most other teams in that regard.

What I think does separate Pittsburgh from some of the others mentioned is we have again amassed near the top of the league in most man-games lost.

So you call it a country club but I would call it a triage unit. That is the problem, not the rest of this voodoo, hocus pocus bullshitt.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

As for Kunitz, I agree that he has not looked great for over a year now. I'm worried that he may be done.

However, let's be real for a second and ask who exactly would you play over him?

Nick Spaling? They tried that and it did not work - hasn't scored in 20 some games.

Craig Adams? Only if you want a shot blocker to play on the top line.

Beau Bennett? Please. He sucks.

Steve Downey? Only if you want to be shorthanded the whole time. He has some talent but he is a complete imbecile who cannot be trusted.

Those are the options. Which of those studs deserves Kunitz's role on the top line?

Pittsburgh. Has. Zero. Depth.

It is almost unbelievable to me that all these hockey experts who somehow understand the subtleties of the sport can't even spot that seemingly obvious reality that even a schlub like me can see.

 

[CougarClaws]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
I'll take your word for it on the knowledge thing. You are clearly an expert whereas I am still learning. As I have said a million times, I'm not an expert on any of this stuff - especially things I couldn't possibly know about like locker room culture. That is why I come here - to learn from the masters.
I need to clarify I also am not a hockey expert. Yes I know more than most on these boards, but I am blessed to have found and learned much from real experts in person, and other Internet relms. That said, I still have much to learn to be a "Master" as you put it?

What specifically makes Pittsburgh's locker room a country club? Also, how would you know that? Further, what are other country clubs around the league? Is Chicago's locker room a country club? What about the Rangers' locker room? Is that a country club? Is LA's country club atmosphere why they are very likely going to miss the playoffs? If so, why didn't it harm them last year when they were winning the Stanley Cup?

I believe I laid out good reasons for my "Country Club" assertions. That said - Chicago has one of the best, most experienced, and most demanding coaches ever in Quinnville. Look him up on Wikipedia. He is way ahead of guys like Babcock IMO. LA has one of the most demanding task-masters currently coaching hockey. Think Thierren but with much better communication skills. Even that guy is not likely to last 2 more seasons in LA as he is too hard on his players to last more than a half dozen seasons before they tune him out, as they have been already this season. Good chance LA misses the playoffs after winning the Cup 2 of the last 3 Cups. Unfortunately Championship hockey sucks to watch and to play these days, unless you win. Even then it gets old fast. The Rangers actually lost in the finals last year. But their Coach was in his first season with the Rags, is a proven winner that can get the most out of his players, and would have the Penguins playing their hart's out right now if he was our coach rather than laying down every night when they are playing shorthanded. Back before the team lost faith in Bylsma, he could get a similar performance from the Pens when's guys were injured. But his system and bench management was for shit.

This last paragraph of yours alone invalidates any serious opinion you may have about hockey going forward in my book Von Yinzer. I appreciate the upbeat attitude, it's something I am able to emulate usually with my teams as you may recall from my seemingly endless rants against Pitt fans too traumatized to see anything positive. But you know not what you are talking about with hockey. This team suffers from a long-term lack of commitment due to past success, 6 years of bad coaching, and poor management. It's only our regular season star power that has kept this boat afloat the last 5 seasons. Any good team (and some bad teams) we have come up against in the playoffs has schooled us since DB fully installed his "system" after the Cup win.

BTW. I am pretty tuned into the team. I know months before you when a player like Maatta or Comeau is very seriously injured. I know simply from watching every game when a team has tuned out there Coach. Johnston lost this team in November, almost got them back in February, and lost them for good just after the trade deadline. They don't believe in him, and there are no consequences to the veteran core for doing so. Except for Sid. Sid came around sometime in early March after floating through half the season, and is finally playing consistently hard again. He does not have the ability to lead other players to similar efforts though. And he never lost Malkin. The rest of the team? They don't care enough to try their best for a bumbling idiot who consistently rewards veteran failure, and penalizes the youngsters instead. It's another recipe for disaster, from another bad coach.

Back in the early 90s, did Badger Bob run a country club in 1991 or did it only sprout up after he died? Further, I have long heard (off the record of course) that Scotty Bowman was battling depression at that time and often failed to show up to practices because he couldn't get out of bed. Is that all part of the country club atmosphere or is my hearsay less valid than yours?

As for locker room presence and power, of course Sidney Crosby has more pull within the organization than Johnston or Bylsma. The guy is the BEST HOCKEY PLAYER IN THE WORLD! Are you telling me that Alexander Ovechkin doesn't have more power than Barry Trotz or any of the 25 Caps coaches before him? John Tavares doesn't have as much power as Jack Capuano within the Islanders' organization? Henrik Lundqvist doesn't have more power than Alain Vigneault? I find that exceedingly difficult to believe.

To use a cross-sport parallel, are you telling me that LeBron James - the best basketball player in the world - doesn't have more power than Dave Blatt? Magic Johnson openly had Paul Westphal fired because he didn't like him personally. That was way back in the early 80s. It has worked like that ever since in every major sport. It is very naive to presume otherwise.

I think the term country club atmosphere is just some vague bullshitt people say without really stopping to think about it in any meaningful way. I don;t think Pittsburgh is appreciably different than most other teams in that regard.

What I think does separate Pittsburgh from some of the others mentioned is we have again amassed near the top of the league in most man-games lost.

So you call it a country club but I would call it a triage unit. That is the problem, not the rest of this voodoo, hocus pocus bullshitt.

 

[CougarClaws]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
As for Kunitz, I agree that he has not looked great for over a year now. I'm worried that he may be done.

However, let's be real for a second and ask who exactly would you play over him?

Nick Spaling? They tried that and it did not work - hasn't scored in 20 some games.

Craig Adams? Only if you want a shot blocker to play on the top line.

Beau Bennett? Please. He sucks.

Steve Downey? Only if you want to be shorthanded the whole time. He has some talent but he is a complete imbecile who cannot be trusted.

Those are the options. Which of those studs deserves Kunitz's role on the top line?

Pittsburgh. Has. Zero. Depth.

It is almost unbelievable to me that all these hockey experts who somehow understand the subtleties of the sport can't even spot that seemingly obvious reality that even a schlub like me can see.

Oh man I am a glutton tonight. Probably has something to do with my first beer night of the Spring.

Bennett is the poster-child for what's wrong with this team, and how much we lack in truly knowledgeable fans. As I mentioned before in this thread, young players take more than 100 games to figure things out and start hitting their potential. Unless they are serious stars at least. Bennett has no even played 80 games in the League, and has been horribly mismanaged by 2 different staffs.

First he is not a grinder, but a highly skilled player who needs to play with other highly skilled players to reach his potential. And he is playing at least 15lbs under his normal playing weight due to those freak injuries the last two years.

Secondly look up Malkin's advanced stats when they played those 9 games together in February/March. They were through the roof! Geno was in God-Mode every game he played with Bennett because Beau got him the puck consistently in space. That's what Geno needs from his linemates, that's what Bennett needs from his linemates. Bennett is a playmaking top 6 winger or bust, it's just what he is.

Thirdly, so the Coaches break them up and send Bennett to the 4th line to play with Adams & Lapierre. He's an offensively gifted guy, new to the League, already shit all over by Dan Bylsma and Craig Adams in his previous stints on the team. He's basically still a rookie with weak confidence playing at least 15lbs of muscle under his normal playing weight do to injuries. Yes he sucks playing with grinders! He's not supposed to be playing with our lowest skilled guys - that's a complete waste of his talent and confidence! This is so frustrating that most fans don't see below the surface!

Fourth, every single time the guy plays a good game he gets benched in the 3rd period. Once again a total crush on his confidence. If the coaches don't believe in him when he actually plays well with crap for linemates, well I would sucks too - and so would you!

Bennett is THE classic example of our organizations total inability to develop young talent. Get a good coach in here, put him with Geno who he has insane chemistry with, and watch Malkin go off for 50+ goals again. Yes Bennett will be lucky to score 20 goals, but he will get a ton of assists, and more importantly, help maximize the production of the 2nd best player in the world.

End of frustrated rant.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by CougarClaws:
Recruits - Saw Mario's first game, first shift, first shot,first goal on a little rinky-dink 17 inch TV. So amazing! Tell me you weren't actually in the Gardens for that one or I will be so jelous...

No. I saw his first game at home, when he beat up Guy Lupul of the Canucks. I did sit next to his mom and dad during the 1990 All Star game though!

Funny story about his 1st game at the Garden. I was young and entrusted in trying to get us teenagers some beer to watch the game. So I knew someone who was 21 and we went to go give him money to buy us a case. When I came back with the beer, the game started and was like 5 minutes into it...and I asked "is there any score?" And they were laughing and said "Pens 1-0, Lemieux's first shift he steps on the ice, steals the puck from Ray Bourque and scores on a break away." I am like/....."yeah right.....you could come up with something more believable". It took til the intermission and highlights before I was convinced.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
As for Kunitz, I agree that he has not looked great for over a year now. I'm worried that he may be done.

However, let's be real for a second and ask who exactly would you play over him?

Nick Spaling? They tried that and it did not work - hasn't scored in 20 some games.

Craig Adams? Only if you want a shot blocker to play on the top line.

Beau Bennett? Please. He sucks.

Steve Downey? Only if you want to be shorthanded the whole time. He has some talent but he is a complete imbecile who cannot be trusted.

Those are the options. Which of those studs deserves Kunitz's role on the top line?

Pittsburgh. Has. Zero. Depth.

It is almost unbelievable to me that all these hockey experts who somehow understand the subtleties of the sport can't even spot that seemingly obvious reality that even a schlub like me can see.

Hence, why I said the problems aren't complicated, the answers are. Problem with guys like Kunitz, high energy guys who rely on 100% max effort and skating, is they don't fade away. They burn out. And he is burnt out.

And he has been. Yes, I can understand comments about Bennett, but the last couple of games when he was not skating with Spaling and Adams, he looked like he had a pulse. Again, this is way after the problem, but Bennett should have gotten top 6 minutes at some point. Not for a shift or 2, but for a few games. This is the second coach who hasn't really given him a shot. And of course injuries again haven't helped but in this goal suck streak, they still trotted out 14 for every shift on a top 6 win, every PP.

And it is not like I am saying Bennett is the next coming of Jari Kurri, but he is the ONLY skilled winger right now on the roster other than Hornquist and Perron. Yes, thanks Ray Shero, the lack of depth is here. Shero was fired, but Mario had to rubber stamp the contracts he gave Kunitz and Dupuis. Add to it Scuderi and hey, "the gangs all here", I am surprised they didn't trade Pouillot to bring back Max Talbot., we heard the Staal rumors... Hence, "the country club" arrangement is that they tried to put back the 2009 club in 2014 and 2015.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by CougarClaws:

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
As for Kunitz, I agree that he has not looked great for over a year now. I'm worried that he may be done.

However, let's be real for a second and ask who exactly would you play over him?

Nick Spaling? They tried that and it did not work - hasn't scored in 20 some games.

Craig Adams? Only if you want a shot blocker to play on the top line.

Beau Bennett? Please. He sucks.

Steve Downey? Only if you want to be shorthanded the whole time. He has some talent but he is a complete imbecile who cannot be trusted.

Those are the options. Which of those studs deserves Kunitz's role on the top line?

Pittsburgh. Has. Zero. Depth.

It is almost unbelievable to me that all these hockey experts who somehow understand the subtleties of the sport can't even spot that seemingly obvious reality that even a schlub like me can see.

Oh man I am a glutton tonight. Probably has something to do with my first beer night of the Spring.

Bennett is the poster-child for what's wrong with this team, and how much we lack in truly knowledgeable fans. As I mentioned before in this thread, young players take more than 100 games to figure things out and start hitting their potential. Unless they are serious stars at least. Bennett has no even played 80 games in the League, and has been horribly mismanaged by 2 different staffs.

First he is not a grinder, but a highly skilled player who needs to play with other highly skilled players to reach his potential. And he is playing at least 15lbs under his normal playing weight due to those freak injuries the last two years.

Secondly look up Malkin's advanced stats when they played those 9 games together in February/March. They were through the roof! Geno was in God-Mode every game he played with Bennett because Beau got him the puck consistently in space. That's what Geno needs from his linemates, that's what Bennett needs from his linemates. Bennett is a playmaking top 6 winger or bust, it's just what he is.

Thirdly, so the Coaches break them up and send Bennett to the 4th line to play with Adams & Lapierre. He's an offensively gifted guy, new to the League, already shit all over by Dan Bylsma and Craig Adams in his previous stints on the team. He's basically still a rookie with weak confidence playing at least 15lbs of muscle under his normal playing weight do to injuries. Yes he sucks playing with grinders! He's not supposed to be playing with our lowest skilled guys - that's a complete waste of his talent and confidence! This is so frustrating that most fans don't see below the surface!

Fourth, every single time the guy plays a good game he gets benched in the 3rd period. Once again a total crush on his confidence. If the coaches don't believe in him when he actually plays well with crap for linemates, well I would sucks too - and so would you!

Bennett is THE classic example of our organizations total inability to develop young talent. Get a good coach in here, put him with Geno who he has insane chemistry with, and watch Malkin go off for 50+ goals again. Yes Bennett will be lucky to score 20 goals, but he will get a ton of assists, and more importantly, help maximize the production of the 2nd best player in the world.

End of frustrated rant.

Exactly. Again, not saying Bennett is Bossy, but if you are going to play him 5-6 minutes a night with Adams and Spaling, you might as well bench him and play Bobby Farnham. He is not a grinder. He actually has hands and hockey IQ (at least on the offensive end) and some creativity.

Again, 2 staffs have completely mishandled him. Completely.

One reason I thought Bylsma was fired and bringing in a new staff is they would treat the regular season as a chance to experiment and develop some young players. Well that is a lie. I know 87 probably would flip out, but why not try those two together for a game. Bennett at least has the hands and IQ to play with him and Hornquist.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I have never been so pessimistic with the Pens going into the playoffs in years, many of years.

That being said, these maybe the first playoff games since the 2009 Stanley Cup finals or even the 2008 playoffs where the overwhelming pressure is not on Sid and Geno and the Pens.

Will be interesting how this dynamic may affect them.