The problem with the Pirates

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

It’s Nutting tying up cheap resources.....regardless what the wise-guy Saber geniuses tried to peddle here, Nutting doesn’t give a flying flip about fans or winning...

Big time attendance drop because the fan base has figured out his scam???
Doesn’t matter one iota he’ll field a team from The Wild Things if he has to to make his number.....

Not number of wins, the number of the many many very large in cash he puts in his back pocket.

That's just it. He has a formula. RevenueX-CostY=ProfitZ. As long as he stays within that formula, he could care less if the Pirates win 60 games or 100 games. Oh sure, he would prefer them to win, but not at the expense at deviating from this formula. X always has to be at some level higher than Y. As X shrinks then you shrink Y accordingly.

I know people will defend him and say "well isn't that how all business are run?" And my answer is no, not sports franchises. Sports franchises while not designed to lose money are judged completely different than the P&L statement. It is the W&L statement.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Can somehow Neal Huntingdon make this one trade?

Could he trade Felipe Vasquez for Felipe Rivero?

 

[pitt2533]

Can somehow Neal Huntingdon make this one trade?

Could he trade Felipe Vasquez for Felipe Rivero?

LOL.. I said the same thing..Felipe Vasquez needs to trade himself for Felipe Rivero.

 

[pittdan77]

It's pretty apparent at this point that you wouldn't know the facts if someone beat you over the head with them.

You didn't try using any facts so it doesn't look like it will be you.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I know people will defend him and say "well isn't that how all business are run?" And my answer is no, not sports franchises.

The Los Angeles Dodgers cut nearly $60 million from payroll from last season to this season. The Yankees cut close to $35 million. The fact of the matter is that every single baseball team, indeed, every single sports franchise, has a budget of some sort. And you know why that is? Because the people who own baseball teams understand that they are, at the end of the day, businesses.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You didn't try using any facts so it doesn't look like it will be you.

You're just proving my point.

 

[Delpanther]

The Los Angeles Dodgers cut nearly $60 million from payroll from last season to this season. The Yankees cut close to $35 million. The fact of the matter is that every single baseball team, indeed, every single sports franchise, has a budget of some sort. And you know why that is? Because the people who own baseball teams understand that they are, at the end of the day, businesses.

Quit bloviating....the Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox aren't counting their pennies like Nutting.

 

[88Pitt88]

The Los Angeles Dodgers cut nearly $60 million from payroll from last season to this season. The Yankees cut close to $35 million. The fact of the matter is that every single baseball team, indeed, every single sports franchise, has a budget of some sort. And you know why that is? Because the people who own baseball teams understand that they are, at the end of the day, businesses.

You do realize despite the Dodgers cutting 60 mill. from the payroll, they still pay out more money to players who are no longer under contract. I think they are paying out to players who no longer play for them almost exactly the amount of the Pirates entire payroll currently. If you are trying to tell me they are on a budget, then that is a very loose budget. Just like Del said, they are not pinching pennies like Nutsack, in fact teams like those are the anti-Nutsack. They spend in an effort to win. Unfortunately, they do not always spend that money wisely, unlike Nutsack, who simply does not spend. Expect him to spend even less next year because people are not showing up in big numbers for his $hit show.

Actually, I looked and see that the Dodgers are down to like 30 million in dead money this year. So they do not have near the amount of dead money out this year that they did the last two years. That said, these are poor examples of teams that work under the construct of a tight budget.

 

[paulbl99]

You do realize despite the Dodgers cutting 60 mill. from the payroll, they still pay out more money to players who are no longer under contract. I think they are paying out to players who no longer play for them almost exactly the amount of the Pirates entire payroll currently. If you are trying to tell me they are on a budget, then that is a very loose budget. Just like Del said, they are not pinching pennies like Nutsack, in fact teams like those are the anti-Nutsack. They spend in an effort to win. Unfortunately, they do not always spend that money wisely, unlike Nutsack, who simply does not spend. Expect him to spend even less next year because people are not showing up in big numbers for his $hit show.

Actually, I looked and see that the Dodgers are down to like 30 million in dead money this year. So they do not have near the amount of dead money out this year that they did the last two years. That said, these are poor examples of teams that work under the construct of a tight budget.

Lmao werent they paying 80 /90 million to 3 players not even on their team.

And again with the freaking Dodgers and Yankees

Nobody gives a S about them that’s not what’s going on here in Pgh

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Los Angeles Dodgers cut nearly $60 million from payroll from last season to this season. The Yankees cut close to $35 million. The fact of the matter is that every single baseball team, indeed, every single sports franchise, has a budget of some sort. And you know why that is? Because the people who own baseball teams understand that they are, at the end of the day, businesses.

Joe, a) their payrolls were like $300 million and they weren't winning. b) they weren't winning and finally got rid of some dead money.

Why would you even argue this? Sure every business has a budget, but sports teams are different. Look, I could care less if the Pirates drop payroll down to $60 million in years when they want to rebuild and go with all young players. But when you are at 98 wins, and your payroll is still like 27th, attendance is at record levels, doesn't it make sense then to add some payroll (ie good player) to try and get over the top? I think that is what people are mostly pissed at. Most people understand there are contention windows, and when you are in one, you do what it takes within your means to go for it. And the Pirates didn't and haven't and won't. Care to refute?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Quit bloviating....the Dodgers, Yankees and Red Sox aren't counting their pennies like Nutting.

And yet both the Dodgers and the Yankees made a concentrated effort this past off season to reduce payroll by a significant amount, far, far more than the Pirates did. Because, apparently unlike you, the people who own those teams understand that at the end of the day they are businesses.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

these are poor examples of teams that work under the construct of a tight budget.

Who said anything at all about a tight budget? Certainly not me. But they are operating under a budget. And both teams decided that their budgets for this season would be significantly smaller than their budgets for last year.

The notion that some people here have that the Pirates are a sports franchise and therefore they don't or shouldn't operate with a budget like every other business in the world is silly. As are the people who continue to say dumb things like that.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Joe, a) their payrolls were like $300 million and they weren't winning. b) they weren't winning and finally got rid of some dead money.

Why would you even argue this? Sure every business has a budget, but sports teams are different. Look, I could care less if the Pirates drop payroll down to $60 million in years when they want to rebuild and go with all young players. But when you are at 98 wins, and your payroll is still like 27th, attendance is at record levels, doesn't it make sense then to add some payroll (ie good player) to try and get over the top? I think that is what people are mostly pissed at. Most people understand there are contention windows, and when you are in one, you do what it takes within your means to go for it. And the Pirates didn't and haven't and won't. Care to refute?

I agree with you on just about all of this. The Pirates blew their chance. But the notion that most people understand contention windows and things like that is laughable for anyone who reads this board, because there are people here who clearly understand no such thing. Look at all the people bitching about them reducing payroll this year. Anyone who thought that the Pirates were a realistic contender this year is delusional. And yet people still bitch because they cut payroll. If people understand contention windows then they would know that the Pirates could have added $10 or $20 million to last year's payroll and it was almost certainly not going to make them a contender. But still they bitch. Because the idea that people understand these things is ridiculous.

If the Pirates had not traded Cole and McCutchen this off season, which is where a lot of this angst comes from, the Pirates would have a much higher payroll than the do now. And they'd have a guy who is having a break out season in Cole who would surely help (even if he wasn't having a break out year) and a mediocre center fielder. They wouldn't have Corey Dickerson. They would have David Freese playing third full time rather than Colin Moran. Their payroll would be what, $20 million more than it is now, and they would be no better a baseball team than they are now. Would that make people happy? Would that be proof that they were "trying to win"? If the record was the same and their chance to make the playoffs and win the championship were the same but the payroll was $20-25 million more would that be better?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I agree with you on just about all of this. The Pirates blew their chance. But the notion that most people understand contention windows and things like that is laughable for anyone who reads this board, because there are people here who clearly understand no such thing. Look at all the people bitching about them reducing payroll this year. Anyone who thought that the Pirates were a realistic contender this year is delusional. And yet people still bitch because they cut payroll. If people understand contention windows then they would know that the Pirates could have added $10 or $20 million to last year's payroll and it was almost certainly not going to make them a contender. But still they bitch. Because the idea that people understand these things is ridiculous.

If the Pirates had not traded Cole and McCutchen this off season, which is where a lot of this angst comes from, the Pirates would have a much higher payroll than the do now. And they'd have a guy who is having a break out season in Cole who would surely help (even if he wasn't having a break out year) and a mediocre center fielder. They wouldn't have Corey Dickerson. They would have David Freese playing third full time rather than Colin Moran. Their payroll would be what, $20 million more than it is now, and they would be no better a baseball team than they are now. Would that make people happy? Would that be proof that they were "trying to win"? If the record was the same and their chance to make the playoffs and win the championship were the same but the payroll was $20-25 million more would that be better?

My problem is the Pirates aren't being honest with not only the fans, but themselves. It is OK to rebuild and retool Hell, if they were going to essentially blow it up after the 98 win season in 2015, they should have traded Cutch right then and there. Cole, I agree there was zero chance he was going to resign here so I had no problem in trading him. I just thought they went for more major league ready players rather than the best package of prospects.

When I said "everyone understand contention windows" I was wrong you were right. Hell, the Pirates themselves don't understand this, or are just lying so much that they bought into their own lies. The damage in my eyes was the now infamous "bridge season" which was so BS and so wrong that after that 20 year stretch you don't win 1 WC game in 3 years and decide "okay, that's it, I am good". You make the Polanco and Glasnow for Chris Sale trade. You resign Happ. You add a bat. And you go battle the Cubs and Cards and see what happens. That is what KC and Cleveland did. The Pirates? It's like they said "nah, I'm good".

I think alot of the reaction to "Cutch" being gone is alot like the Fleury delusion. Only Fleury unlike Cutch is still a great player. Cutch would be the 5th best OF on this team now, and that is with Polanco. It was just the frustration of the previous year's all coming out and that was the tipping point.

 

[Delpanther]

And yet both the Dodgers and the Yankees made a concentrated effort this past off season to reduce payroll by a significant amount, far, far more than the Pirates did. Because, apparently unlike you, the people who own those teams understand that at the end of the day they are businesses.

What they did at the end of the day was done in the best interests of winning...unlike what that bum Nutting does and has done....You're bloviating.

 

[88Pitt88]

Joe, a) their payrolls were like $300 million and they weren't winning. b) they weren't winning and finally got rid of some dead money.

Why would you even argue this? Sure every business has a budget, but sports teams are different. Look, I could care less if the Pirates drop payroll down to $60 million in years when they want to rebuild and go with all young players. But when you are at 98 wins, and your payroll is still like 27th, attendance is at record levels, doesn't it make sense then to add some payroll (ie good player) to try and get over the top? I think that is what people are mostly pissed at. Most people understand there are contention windows, and when you are in one, you do what it takes within your means to go for it. And the Pirates didn't and haven't and won't. Care to refute?

I think you speak for most of us RECRUITS. That is it exactly. When you have a great chance to win something, spend the extra dough. Show you want to win and are committed when the time is right. It is the lack of committment to winning that bothers Pirate fans and is keeping them from the ballpark this year.

 

[paulbl99]

I think you speak for most of us RECRUITS. That is it exactly. When you have a great chance to win something, spend the extra dough. Show you want to win and are committed when the time is right. It is the lack of committment to winning that bothers Pirate fans and is keeping them from the ballpark this year.

That’s all any of us have ever asked for here but the Saber Geniuses always came up w their analytics as to why Nutting need not bother.....or theY bring up the friggin Dodgers and Yankees as if they’re one flipping iota relevant......

I like this team , even though that bum Nutting wouldn’t spend a dime to give the staff the arm or bullpen guy which could have them in this division hunt all the way.
Nutting is a POS

 

[bwh05]

That’s all any of us have ever asked for here but the Saber Geniuses always came up w their analytics as to why Nutting need not bother.....or theY bring up the friggin Dodgers and Yankees as if they’re one flipping iota relevant......

I like this team , even though that bum Nutting wouldn’t spend a dime to give the staff the arm or bullpen guy which could have them in this division hunt all the way.
Nutting is a POS

They’re actually not that bad. If they’d tried to add some pieces in the off season they may have been able to capitalize on the hot start. Too cheap to be good.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

What they did at the end of the day was done in the best interests of winning

This is all we need to know about your understanding of the game. What the Dodgers and the Yankees did was in no way, shape or form about winning now, which is what you always demand of the Pirates. It was done with the thought that if they needed to sacrifice this season to get better in the future that was OK. Something that you have consistently excoriated the Pirates for doing. It was done because both teams didn't want to pay the luxury tax any more, they wanted to cut payroll enough to reset their luxury tax status back to zero. If they needed to take a step back this year that was OK if they accomplished their ultimate goal. Why did they want to do that? Because they didn't want to spend that much money anymore.

The Dodgers won 104 games last year, the most in all of baseball. But they didn't win the championship. Their response to that was to cut payroll by a large amount. When the Pirates do the same thing with a 75 win team you bitch and say that's a sign that they don't want to win. When the Dodgers do it you say that they are doing what is in the best interests of winning. The fact that you can't see that's a huge double standard is a large part of the reason why people are laughing at you, not with you.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I just thought they went for more major league ready players rather than the best package of prospects.

They've done that too many times in the past. They would rather get guys who are ready now (or who will be very shortly) than guys who have a chance to be a lot better but will take longer to get here. Sometimes that can be the right decision, but more often than not it isn't. But they don't want to take the chance that the high ceiling guys will flame out and they end up with nothing, or close to nothing.

 

[Jakey_John]

A big problem right now is that we could step on the mound and produce the same results as the bullpen. Further, Nutting has no desire to change that.

We went from Watson and Melancon to Rich Rodriguez (not THAT Rich Rod, hopefully) and Rivero er Vasquez who seemed to drop his command when he dropped his original surname. That’s not going to get it done.

 

[FreeportPanther]

If Kang continues his convalescence and gets himself into playing shape, similar to the player he was before his meltdown, they will have two competent 3rd basemen, one from the right side, one from the left. Platoon? Who knows.
One thing, it makes Freese available for trade bait.
Similarly, they have 4 ML ready outfielders who need to play. More intrigue, which one do you offer as trade bait?
These moves wouldn't be the typical salary dumps, but strategic trades to offer something of value to get something of value.
Probably need another consistent starter, and a reliable arm in the pen.
Madden went off on Rodriguez, but his salary and production to date makes him unmovable.

This team battles, they are a likeable bunch.

BTW, the closer situation is typical Pirates luck, or lack thereof. Last year, this guy was lights out, one of the best, if not the best closer in baseball. 100 mph fastball, almost Chapman like.
SO the Pirates do the right thing, sign him long term, invest the $$$ to lock him up, and what happens? He regresses! Didn't see that one coming, and it has hurt them in these late inning gut wrenching implosions.

Hopefully he can figure it out, or get well because he's a big cog in this season being successful.

 

[paulbl99]

If Kang continues his convalescence and gets himself into playing shape, similar to the player he was before his meltdown, they will have two competent 3rd basemen, one from the right side, one from the left. Platoon? Who knows.
One thing, it makes Freese available for trade bait.
Similarly, they have 4 ML ready outfielders who need to play. More intrigue, which one do you offer as trade bait?
These moves wouldn't be the typical salary dumps, but strategic trades to offer something of value to get something of value.
Probably need another consistent starter, and a reliable arm in the pen.
Madden went off on Rodriguez, but his salary and production to date makes him unmovable.

This team battles, they are a likeable bunch.

BTW, the closer situation is typical Pirates luck, or lack thereof. Last year, this guy was lights out, one of the best, if not the best closer in baseball. 100 mph fastball, almost Chapman like.
SO the Pirates do the right thing, sign him long term, invest the $$$ to lock him up, and what happens? He regresses! Didn't see that one coming, and it has hurt them in these late inning gut wrenching implosions.

Hopefully he can figure it out, or get well because he's a big cog in this season being successful.

Kang hit a granny yesterday....
He’s back lol.

Like the team , can’t stand Nutting.

 

[pittdan77]

You're just proving my point.

LOL

 

[FreeportPanther]

Kang hit a granny yesterday....
He’s back lol.

Like the team , can’t stand Nutting.

Saw that, Wish it was in Saint Louis rather than Bradenton!
The guy can play if he can stay away from the sauce and hookers.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

They've done that too many times in the past. They would rather get guys who are ready now (or who will be very shortly) than guys who have a chance to be a lot better but will take longer to get here. Sometimes that can be the right decision, but more often than not it isn't. But they don't want to take the chance that the high ceiling guys will flame out and they end up with nothing, or close to nothing.

I know and it is hard to criticize the Cole trade right now, because the guys they did get are performing well. It's just dangerous, of course as I posted ad nauseum, the Pirates could have likely gotten Sale or Archer or even part of a package for Stanton with Glasnow and Polanco, and they were high end prospects that now 3 years later, you have to question their ceilings.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Saw that, Wish it was in Saint Louis rather than Bradenton!
The guy can play if he can stay away from the sauce and hookers.

Here's my advice to Kang.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Here's my advice to Kang.

Maybe the Pirates should hire his mother as his translator.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Pirates pitchers are getting really good at giving up grand slams this year. Kingham just put them down 4-0 after 4 batters.

Fading fast.......

 

[Jakey_John]

You forgot to mention the error on the potential double play the pitch before.

 

[FreeportPanther]

You forgot to mention the error on the potential double play the pitch before.

Didn't see it...flipping back and forth from the Memorial to the game. What happened?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Pirates pitchers are getting really good at giving up grand slams this year. Kingham just put them down 4-0 after 4 batters.

Fading fast.......

How perfect was it that Mark Madden wrote a column today eviscerating the Pirates and SRod for starting him, who is statistically by far their worst player, 40% of the time, and he goes and boots a sure DP ground ball then the next guy hits a grand slam. Just perfect timing.

Here's another thing, people whined and bitched about the Cole and Cutch trades, where I thought the worst moves were extending Coonnelly, Huntingdon and especially Hurdle.

 

[FreeportPanther]

How perfect was it that Mark Madden wrote a column today eviscerating the Pirates and SRod for starting him, who is statistically by far their worst player, 40% of the time, and he goes and boots a sure DP ground ball then the next guy hits a grand slam. Just perfect timing.

Here's another thing, people whined and bitched about the Cole and Cutch trades, where I thought the worst moves were extending Coonnelly, Huntingdon and especially Hurdle.

Don't even know what Coonelly does, and Hurdle, meh....but Huntington has done OK, especially if you buy the premise that he operates under Nutting's penny pinching thumb.

Why are you so down on him?

 

[Delpanther]

This is all we need to know about your understanding of the game. What the Dodgers and the Yankees did was in no way, shape or form about winning now, which is what you always demand of the Pirates. It was done with the thought that if they needed to sacrifice this season to get better in the future that was OK. Something that you have consistently excoriated the Pirates for doing. It was done because both teams didn't want to pay the luxury tax any more, they wanted to cut payroll enough to reset their luxury tax status back to zero. If they needed to take a step back this year that was OK if they accomplished their ultimate goal. Why did they want to do that? Because they didn't want to spend that much money anymore.

The Dodgers won 104 games last year, the most in all of baseball. But they didn't win the championship. Their response to that was to cut payroll by a large amount. When the Pirates do the same thing with a 75 win team you bitch and say that's a sign that they don't want to win. When the Dodgers do it you say that they are doing what is in the best interests of winning. The fact that you can't see that's a huge double standard is a large part of the reason why people are laughing at you, not with you.

Comparing the Dodger's and Yankees' strategy to that of the Pirates...you're clueless as usual.....all you need to know about what a bum Nutting is to look at who's is the 6th highest paid player on the team...Sean Rodriguez, a stiff who shouldn't even be in the majors yet get major time with Nutting's sorry crew. Keep bloviating....

 

[FreeportPanther]

Wacha's dealing today. NO hitter through 7. Pitch count getting up there.....
In today's sabermetric obsessed game, will he get pulled when he goes over 100?

 

[FreeportPanther]

No-no through 8 now. 105 pitches. He won't get pulled. LOL

 

[mike 301]

That was painfull to watch .. Kinda sad . But I am sure nutting could give a shit .

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Don't even know what Coonelly does, and Hurdle, meh....but Huntington has done OK, especially if you buy the premise that he operates under Nutting's penny pinching thumb.

Why are you so down on him?

Why? Because really the drafting and development has been bad. Meadows now, and Bell, but who has come up through the system as Huntingdon draftee/signees? Marte was the previous regime. So was Cutch. Cole was a no brainer #1 overall pick. Taillon was a #2 overall pick as was Alvarez. Mercer I believe was the previous regime. Think of Meadows, we were incredibly lucky, we drafted Appel and he went back in the draft and we got his slot which was Meadows. Appel is out of baseball.

Huntington's trades have been okay for the most part, he has done well there. Well with a few exceptions, Jon Niese I am looking at you.

Coonelly, I don't what he does either. Except says stupid arrogant things that pisses off the fanbase.

Hurdle. Liked him, but he has run his course. Same idiotic baseball plays being made by the same people Trotting Vasquez out there 3 days in a row after he just had some arm issues. Playing SRod 2 out of every 5 games. Sitting the white hot Meadows the other night. Those are just some stuff, but I think Hurdle's message is now falling on deaf ears.

I think for the Pirates to do what they want to do, they have to do a great job drafting and developing. But it is really not that good, I think someone had a stat last year that the Pirates had like the lowest WAR or something for homegrown players.

 

[Delpanther]

Don't even know what Coonelly does, and Hurdle, meh....but Huntington has done OK, especially if you buy the premise that he operates under Nutting's penny pinching thumb.

Why are you so down on him?

Huntington....GM of a team whose viability depends on quality drafts and his drafting hasn't been worth a $hit and as Recruits said, the player development has been horrid. The Pirates are one of the worst fielding and base running teams in BB.....Kerplunko still plays RF and runs the bases like a little leaguer......Huntington and the guy with the second fattest head in Pittsburgh, Clint "Buffoon" Hurdle, keep their jobs for one reason....they don't mind working for an owner who doesn't care about winning. Raise that jolly roger and have another kielbasa at the empty ball yard.

 

[mike 301]

Huntington....GM of a team whose viability depends on quality drafts and his drafting hasn't been worth a $hit and as Recruits said, the player development has been horrid. The Pirates are one of the worst fielding and base running teams in BB.....Kerplunko still plays RF and runs the bases like a little leaguer......Huntington and the guy with the second fattest head in Pittsburgh, Clint "Buffoon" Hurdle, keep their jobs for one reason....they don't mind working for an owner who doesn't care about winning. Raise that jolly roger and have another kielbasa at the empty ball yard.

Might as well not include Hurdle . He is a yes man just glad to be sober .