The USA/Jamaica post-mortem

[Sean Miller Fan]

OK, so less than a month after the women win the World Cup, the men suffer their worst upset loss in program history and fail to make the Gold Cup final, being knocked out by a CONCACAF team (other than Mexico) for the first time ever. I don't like to compare the men's and women's team too much because the women have so much less competition since women don't play sports in most of the world, but still its funny that the women's program highest high and the men's team lowest low (arguably) came within a month of each other.

- First of all, for the people on this board that like soccer, do you think we should move these types of discussions over to the Locker Room Board? I was going to post this there first but it seemed like mostly political discussions. Should we start soccer discussions over there?

- Anyway, you cant post about USMNT team without asking the Jurgen Klinsmann question. Should he stay or should he go? I mean, granted, they did have a nice friendly win in Amsterdam then beat an uninspired German B-team, fresh off the beach, in Cologne, but other than that, this has been a pretty bad 12 months since the World Cup. Klinsmann is just all over the place with his team selections and decisions. I would say the "keep or fire" decision should be made after October 10. The USA will play Mexico (or Jamaica) in a 1 game playoff for a berth in the 2017 Confederations Cup. The next day, the USA U23s will have a play-in game in Sandy, Utah for a spot in the 2016 Olympics. Lose both of those games and I think Klinsmann is done (though even with a loss on Oct 10 in Utah, the U23s can still back into the Olympics by winning the 3rd place game on Oct 13 then beating Colombia in a 2 legged series).

- Klinsmann has alienated a lot of people by his bizarre team selections. He continually picks Stanford's Jordan Morris and while Morris has done well in his short time with the team, he's not some young wunderkind. In my opinion, he's not good enough to alienate seasoned professionals by his selection. Same goes for winger Miguel Ibarra, who plays in the 2nd Division NASL. Ibarra may be talented but not talented enough to make waves by taking a 2nd Division player over an MLS player.....and he's done nothing when he's been called upon. Actually these 2 guys didn't make the Gold Cup squad but have been 2 pet peeves of mine which has made me question Klinsmann's mental status and make me wonder if he's capable of leading this program.

- As for the Gold Cup, what a disaster. 2 1-goal wins over Honduras and Haiti, a draw with Panama and a loss to Jamaica. Easily the worst GC ever for the USA and remember Bob Bradley was fired largely for losing to Mexico in the GC Final. Klinsmann may have won the "B-team Gold Cup" in 2013 but when all the "A-teams" were there, his squad struggled mightily.

- I have to question the love affair he seems to have with Ventura Alvarado. It seems like any time he wins a recruiting battle with Mexico over Germany for a low-level dual national that the other nation had no plans for, he has to play him loads to show people how smart he is. Listen, Alvarado is not any good, not at all. I wanted to jump out of my chair when I saw him on the team sheet for the Jamaica game over Omar Gonzalez, who has been in many big games for both club and country. Alvarado was at least partly responsible for all but 1 goal given up in that Gold Cup and his blunder against Honduras was one of the worst examples of 1 on 1 defending, I've ever seen. How in the world can this guy continue to get called upon.

- For me, Gonzalez has to be the mainstay at 1 CB position. The other has to be either Besler, Cameron, or Brooks. The outside backs have to be Johnson and Yedlin. Quit with trying to be cute and putting Yedlin in midfield. Yea, he's pacey, but he's more dangerous as an outside back putting crosses into the box. Yedlin can become a world-class OB but is just an average midfielder. Part of Klinsmann's issues is he can't decide on a lineup. I hope you see a back 4 of Johnson, Gonzalez, Cameron, and Yedlin for the games that matter.

- In the midfield, much has been made of Bradley playing ouf of position in an advanced role but I cant disagree with Klinsmann on this mostly because I Don't know who else could play that position. I would go with Zardes and Bedoya on the wings and either Beckerman orJones as theDCM. Up top, you have Dempsey and either Altidore or Johansson. I can't believe he put ALan Gordon in the game against Jamaica. Yea, he's good in the air and is the all-time leader in MLS goals off the bench but he comes off the bench for a reason. Johansson was knocking at the door and is skilled enough to unlock the Jamaica D. He should have stayed on. If you wanted to bring in a striker, it should have been Wondolowski who is a goal poacher and is better all-around than Gordon.

Before the game, I wanted to throw things at the TV when I heard Alexi Lalas claiming that Guzan should be USA's #1 even when Howard returns from his International sabbatical. This isn't a Landon Donovan situation. Howard didn't take a break from soccer, he took a break from International duty while still playing at a high level in the Premier League. Howard is still one of the best keepers in the world. Guzanwasnt good enough to keep his job at Aston Villa. The Howard/Guzan debate isn't even one. If Howard isn't back in net as the #1 soon, that's a big problem. Guzan played poorly against Jamiaca, handling the ball outside his area (never called, but still have to be aware), not being in position on the Mattocks header, and not getting a hand on the Jamiaca free kick goal. TO be fair, that was a greatee kick and tde the US wall didn't jump but I think Howardmakes that save.

- Lastly, somewhat unrelated, how do you pick Julian Green for the WC and leave Landon the Legend at home but then, a year later, in a less important tournament, you basically say that Green is not good enough to make a less important tourney roster. Then, not only thatbut you fail to cap-tie Gideon Zelalem who was probablgood enough to make the roster on his own merit. Zelalem could have made that roster over somebody and been thrown into the game at some point so that he could never play for anybody else. What a missed opportunity. Instead, Klinsmann has his "A" team guys playing in the Baltimore mid-afternoon 95 degree sweatbath for 90 minutes playing against a Cuba team, who lo a bunch of players who defected ad that are honestly not much better than Pitt. If you're wondering why the US attack was so limp, trying to chase the game against Jamaica, consider that most of those guys went 90 minutes in the sweltering heat a few days earlier for no reason. Klinsmann was gifted a bye to the semis but still elected to play at "A" team in that heat.

 

[paulbl99]

OK, so less than a month after the women win the World Cup, the men suffer their worst upset loss in program history and fail to make the Gold Cup final, being knocked out by a CONCACAF team (other than Mexico) for the first time ever. I don't like to compare the men's and women's team too much because the women have so much less competition since women don't play sports in most of the world, but still its funny that the women's program highest high and the men's team lowest low (arguably) came within a month of each other.

- First of all, for the people on this board that like soccer, do you think we should move these types of discussions over to the Locker Room Board? I was going to post this there first but it seemed like mostly political discussions. Should we start soccer discussions over there?

- Anyway, you cant post about USMNT team without asking the Jurgen Klinsmann question. Should he stay or should he go? I mean, granted, they did have a nice friendly win in Amsterdam then beat an uninspired German B-team, fresh off the beach, in Cologne, but other than that, this has been a pretty bad 12 months since the World Cup. Klinsmann is just all over the place with his team selections and decisions. I would say the "keep or fire" decision should be made after October 10. The USA will play Mexico (or Jamaica) in a 1 game playoff for a berth in the 2017 Confederations Cup. The next day, the USA U23s will have a play-in game in Sandy, Utah for a spot in the 2016 Olympics. Lose both of those games and I think Klinsmann is done (though even with a loss on Oct 10 in Utah, the U23s can still back into the Olympics by winning the 3rd place game on Oct 13 then beating Colombia in a 2 legged series).

- Klinsmann has alienated a lot of people by his bizarre team selections. He continually picks Stanford's Jordan Morris and while Morris has done well in his short time with the team, he's not some young wunderkind. In my opinion, he's not good enough to alienate seasoned professionals by his selection. Same goes for winger Miguel Ibarra, who plays in the 2nd Division NASL. Ibarra may be talented but not talented enough to make waves by taking a 2nd Division player over an MLS player.....and he's done nothing when he's been called upon. Actually these 2 guys didn't make the Gold Cup squad but have been 2 pet peeves of mine which has made me question Klinsmann's mental status and make me wonder if he's capable of leading this program.

- As for the Gold Cup, what a disaster. 2 1-goal wins over Honduras and Haiti, a draw with Panama and a loss to Jamaica. Easily the worst GC ever for the USA and remember Bob Bradley was fired largely for losing to Mexico in the GC Final. Klinsmann may have won the "B-team Gold Cup" in 2013 but when all the "A-teams" were there, his squad struggled mightily.

- I have to question the love affair he seems to have with Ventura Alvarado. It seems like any time he wins a recruiting battle with Mexico over Germany for a low-level dual national that the other nation had no plans for, he has to play him loads to show people how smart he is. Listen, Alvarado is not any good, not at all. I wanted to jump out of my chair when I saw him on the team sheet for the Jamaica game over Omar Gonzalez, who has been in many big games for both club and country. Alvarado was at least partly responsible for all but 1 goal given up in that Gold Cup and his blunder against Honduras was one of the worst examples of 1 on 1 defending, I've ever seen. How in the world can this guy continue to get called upon.

- For me, Gonzalez has to be the mainstay at 1 CB position. The other has to be either Besler, Cameron, or Brooks. The outside backs have to be Johnson and Yedlin. Quit with trying to be cute and putting Yedlin in midfield. Yea, he's pacey, but he's more dangerous as an outside back putting crosses into the box. Yedlin can become a world-class OB but is just an average midfielder. Part of Klinsmann's issues is he can't decide on a lineup. I hope you see a back 4 of Johnson, Gonzalez, Cameron, and Yedlin for the games that matter.

- In the midfield, much has been made of Bradley playing ouf of position in an advanced role but I cant disagree with Klinsmann on this mostly because I Don't know who else could play that position. I would go with Zardes and Bedoya on the wings and either Beckerman orJones as theDCM. Up top, you have Dempsey and either Altidore or Johansson. I can't believe he put ALan Gordon in the game against Jamaica. Yea, he's good in the air and is the all-time leader in MLS goals off the bench but he comes off the bench for a reason. Johansson was knocking at the door and is skilled enough to unlock the Jamaica D. He should have stayed on. If you wanted to bring in a striker, it should have been Wondolowski who is a goal poacher and is better all-around than Gordon.

Before the game, I wanted to throw things at the TV when I heard Alexi Lalas claiming that Guzan should be USA's #1 even when Howard returns from his International sabbatical. This isn't a Landon Donovan situation. Howard didn't take a break from soccer, he took a break from International duty while still playing at a high level in the Premier League. Howard is still one of the best keepers in the world. Guzanwasnt good enough to keep his job at Aston Villa. The Howard/Guzan debate isn't even one. If Howard isn't back in net as the #1 soon, that's a big problem. Guzan played poorly against Jamiaca, handling the ball outside his area (never called, but still have to be aware), not being in position on the Mattocks header, and not getting a hand on the Jamiaca free kick goal. TO be fair, that was a greatee kick and tde the US wall didn't jump but I think Howardmakes that save.

- Lastly, somewhat unrelated, how do you pick Julian Green for the WC and leave Landon the Legend at home but then, a year later, in a less important tournament, you basically say that Green is not good enough to make a less important tourney roster. Then, not only thatbut you fail to cap-tie Gideon Zelalem who was probablgood enough to make the roster on his own merit. Zelalem could have made that roster over somebody and been thrown into the game at some point so that he could never play for anybody else. What a missed opportunity. Instead, Klinsmann has his "A" team guys playing in the Baltimore mid-afternoon 95 degree sweatbath for 90 minutes playing against a Cuba team, who lo a bunch of players who defected ad that are honestly not much better than Pitt. If you're wondering why the US attack was so limp, trying to chase the game against Jamaica, consider that most of those guys went 90 minutes in the sweltering heat a few days earlier for no reason. Klinsmann was gifted a bye to the semis but still elected to play at "A" team in that heat.

Hey Man... come to Jamaica

You cannot be serious...But really easy to explain
Unlike the euro trash and third world countries our best athletes go into better alternatives.
Why ?

Because we have them !!!!!
Let the soccer revolution. Begin!

 

[Zaratoughda]

What you could have done... is post something in Locker Room or Olympic Sports and.... post an OT here directing those interested in soccer to look over there. You might even get with that... a forum mostly your own.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Klinsmann is a primadonna more interested in his Newport Beach lifestyle than running a training session. He doesn't know his players. He needs to go.

And as far as the two previous posts to this one, it's exactly what I don't get about some people and soccer. If you're not interested, don't read and don't respond. That's obviously what 100's of people on this board have done. But some people have such little man syndrome when it comes to the sport that they can't help themselves and have to take their digs. Just very bizarre.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

SMF, while I would agree with you that Klinsman's player selection can be borderline goofy at times, and I would also agree that Ventura Alvarado did not play well in the Gold Cup, if you can't figure out why Klinsman would play him and you honestly think that he is "not any good at all" then you just simply don't know what you are talking about. Alvarado is 22 years old and is a pretty regular starter for Club America. Perhaps you don't know this, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Club America is better than every single team in MLS. Not better than the crappy teams, or better than most teams, better than every single one of them. Someone who is good enough to be starting for Club America is good enough to start for every team in MLS.

You'd certainly like to hope that a head coach has a good enough feel for his team to understand when guys are playing well and when they aren't and make their lineup suggestions accordingly. But Alvarado is better than almost all the possible choices that the US has at center back already, and he has the potential to be much better than all of them. That's why Klinsman plays him.

I thought that Klinsman takes some sort of odd pleasure in playing guys out of position, but then you suggest a lineup with guys playing out of position all over the place. Geoff Cameron plays right back for Stoke. He basically never plays center back, unless guys get hurt. He should be the starting right back, and he should have been the starting right back for a long time now. Fabian Johnson, on the other hand, is a midfielder. He plays midfield for his club pretty much all the time. It's actually kind of funny when Klinsman plays him and Yedlin on the same side of the field, and then plays the midfielder as a defender and the defender as the midfielder. Because he's smarter than everyone else, don't ya know.

Oh, one more thing. Kyle Beckerman. Good god, not only should be not be the starter he should never, ever even make the team. He's fine against low level opponents and low level players. OK, but nothing more than that. He is completely lost against good teams and good players, and he absolutely cannot handle any opponent with even a modicum of speed. Wednesday night no one else wanted to say it, but during the half time show of the Jamaica game Warren Barton got it exactly right. Beckerman isn't good enough and doesn't have the pace to play against a team like Jamaica. And if you aren't good enough to play against Jamaica then why are you ever on the team?

And playing Beckerman pretty much forces you to play Bradley, possibly your best player, out of position. He's not an attacking midfielder, and I wonder how often we have to see him fail at that role before someone realizes it. He's your number six, not your number ten. Stop playing your best players out of position and see how that works out for the team.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

SMF, while I would agree with you that Klinsman's player selection can be borderline goofy at times, and I would also agree that Ventura Alvarado did not play well in the Gold Cup, if you can't figure out why Klinsman would play him and you honestly think that he is "not any good at all" then you just simply don't know what you are talking about. Alvarado is 22 years old and is a pretty regular starter for Club America. Perhaps you don't know this, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Club America is better than every single team in MLS. Not better than the crappy teams, or better than most teams, better than every single one of them. Someone who is good enough to be starting for Club America is good enough to start for every team in MLS.

You'd certainly like to hope that a head coach has a good enough feel for his team to understand when guys are playing well and when they aren't and make their lineup suggestions accordingly. But Alvarado is better than almost all the possible choices that the US has at center back already, and he has the potential to be much better than all of them. That's why Klinsman plays him.

I thought that Klinsman takes some sort of odd pleasure in playing guys out of position, but then you suggest a lineup with guys playing out of position all over the place. Geoff Cameron plays right back for Stoke. He basically never plays center back, unless guys get hurt. He should be the starting right back, and he should have been the starting right back for a long time now. Fabian Johnson, on the other hand, is a midfielder. He plays midfield for his club pretty much all the time. It's actually kind of funny when Klinsman plays him and Yedlin on the same side of the field, and then plays the midfielder as a defender and the defender as the midfielder. Because he's smarter than everyone else, don't ya know.

Oh, one more thing. Kyle Beckerman. Good god, not only should be not be the starter he should never, ever even make the team. He's fine against low level opponents and low level players. OK, but nothing more than that. He is completely lost against good teams and good players, and he absolutely cannot handle any opponent with even a modicum of speed. Wednesday night no one else wanted to say it, but during the half time show of the Jamaica game Warren Barton got it exactly right. Beckerman isn't good enough and doesn't have the pace to play against a team like Jamaica. And if you aren't good enough to play against Jamaica then why are you ever on the team?

And playing Beckerman pretty much forces you to play Bradley, possibly your best player, out of position. He's not an attacking midfielder, and I wonder how often we have to see him fail at that role before someone realizes it. He's your number six, not your number ten. Stop playing your best players out of position and see how that works out for the team.

Im familiar with Club America and yes, they would win MLS.......but Alvarado just won a starting job late in the year so I wouldnt call him a "regular starter." Hes a young kid who may have a bright future but right now hes completely lost on the International level. No way hes better than Omar Gonzalez, who BTW would start on any Liga MX team. He's not a DP for nothing.

Klinsmann is playing Alvarado to prove to everybody how smart he is and to justify the "recruting battle" but that wasnt much of one. If he was good enough to play for Mexico, he would be. The other reason he's playing is because Klinsmann openly hates MLS so his inclusion is a big eff you to MLS. Maybe he'll be good in the future but right now he aint.

As for Cameron, IMO hes a CB that plays outside back at Stoke out of need. Same goea for Ream at Bolton. I love outside backs who can get up and down and create scoring chances like Yedlin and Johnson and I dont think Cameron can be that effective at outside back. Besides one big miscue, he had a pretty good WC. Rumor is Stoke wanted him to rest this summer which is why he wasnt in the GC. I HOPE thats true but even if it is, he'll probably be in Klinsmann's dog house. I think we need him and Gonzalez in the middle against Mexico on Oct 9, if for no other reason, there's nobody better.

Agree totally about Beckerman but the time has come to phase him out. The fact that he has to play such important minutes at this point is a problem. And Mix is NOT the answer. He's been found out. Everybody thought he was this up and coming European star........until he came to MLS and has done nothing.

 

[NTOP]

OK, so less than a month after the women win the World Cup, the men suffer their worst upset loss in program history and fail to make the Gold Cup final, being knocked out by a CONCACAF team (other than Mexico) for the first time ever. I don't like to compare the men's and women's team too much because the women have so much less competition since women don't play sports in most of the world, but still its funny that the women's program highest high and the men's team lowest low (arguably) came within a month of each other.

- First of all, for the people on this board that like soccer, do you think we should move these types of discussions over to the Locker Room Board? I was going to post this there first but it seemed like mostly political discussions. Should we start soccer discussions over there?

- Anyway, you cant post about USMNT team without asking the Jurgen Klinsmann question. Should he stay or should he go? I mean, granted, they did have a nice friendly win in Amsterdam then beat an uninspired German B-team, fresh off the beach, in Cologne, but other than that, this has been a pretty bad 12 months since the World Cup. Klinsmann is just all over the place with his team selections and decisions. I would say the "keep or fire" decision should be made after October 10. The USA will play Mexico (or Jamaica) in a 1 game playoff for a berth in the 2017 Confederations Cup. The next day, the USA U23s will have a play-in game in Sandy, Utah for a spot in the 2016 Olympics. Lose both of those games and I think Klinsmann is done (though even with a loss on Oct 10 in Utah, the U23s can still back into the Olympics by winning the 3rd place game on Oct 13 then beating Colombia in a 2 legged series).

- Klinsmann has alienated a lot of people by his bizarre team selections. He continually picks Stanford's Jordan Morris and while Morris has done well in his short time with the team, he's not some young wunderkind. In my opinion, he's not good enough to alienate seasoned professionals by his selection. Same goes for winger Miguel Ibarra, who plays in the 2nd Division NASL. Ibarra may be talented but not talented enough to make waves by taking a 2nd Division player over an MLS player.....and he's done nothing when he's been called upon. Actually these 2 guys didn't make the Gold Cup squad but have been 2 pet peeves of mine which has made me question Klinsmann's mental status and make me wonder if he's capable of leading this program.

- As for the Gold Cup, what a disaster. 2 1-goal wins over Honduras and Haiti, a draw with Panama and a loss to Jamaica. Easily the worst GC ever for the USA and remember Bob Bradley was fired largely for losing to Mexico in the GC Final. Klinsmann may have won the "B-team Gold Cup" in 2013 but when all the "A-teams" were there, his squad struggled mightily.

- I have to question the love affair he seems to have with Ventura Alvarado. It seems like any time he wins a recruiting battle with Mexico over Germany for a low-level dual national that the other nation had no plans for, he has to play him loads to show people how smart he is. Listen, Alvarado is not any good, not at all. I wanted to jump out of my chair when I saw him on the team sheet for the Jamaica game over Omar Gonzalez, who has been in many big games for both club and country. Alvarado was at least partly responsible for all but 1 goal given up in that Gold Cup and his blunder against Honduras was one of the worst examples of 1 on 1 defending, I've ever seen. How in the world can this guy continue to get called upon.

- For me, Gonzalez has to be the mainstay at 1 CB position. The other has to be either Besler, Cameron, or Brooks. The outside backs have to be Johnson and Yedlin. Quit with trying to be cute and putting Yedlin in midfield. Yea, he's pacey, but he's more dangerous as an outside back putting crosses into the box. Yedlin can become a world-class OB but is just an average midfielder. Part of Klinsmann's issues is he can't decide on a lineup. I hope you see a back 4 of Johnson, Gonzalez, Cameron, and Yedlin for the games that matter.

- In the midfield, much has been made of Bradley playing ouf of position in an advanced role but I cant disagree with Klinsmann on this mostly because I Don't know who else could play that position. I would go with Zardes and Bedoya on the wings and either Beckerman orJones as theDCM. Up top, you have Dempsey and either Altidore or Johansson. I can't believe he put ALan Gordon in the game against Jamaica. Yea, he's good in the air and is the all-time leader in MLS goals off the bench but he comes off the bench for a reason. Johansson was knocking at the door and is skilled enough to unlock the Jamaica D. He should have stayed on. If you wanted to bring in a striker, it should have been Wondolowski who is a goal poacher and is better all-around than Gordon.

Before the game, I wanted to throw things at the TV when I heard Alexi Lalas claiming that Guzan should be USA's #1 even when Howard returns from his International sabbatical. This isn't a Landon Donovan situation. Howard didn't take a break from soccer, he took a break from International duty while still playing at a high level in the Premier League. Howard is still one of the best keepers in the world. Guzanwasnt good enough to keep his job at Aston Villa. The Howard/Guzan debate isn't even one. If Howard isn't back in net as the #1 soon, that's a big problem. Guzan played poorly against Jamiaca, handling the ball outside his area (never called, but still have to be aware), not being in position on the Mattocks header, and not getting a hand on the Jamiaca free kick goal. TO be fair, that was a greatee kick and tde the US wall didn't jump but I think Howardmakes that save.

- Lastly, somewhat unrelated, how do you pick Julian Green for the WC and leave Landon the Legend at home but then, a year later, in a less important tournament, you basically say that Green is not good enough to make a less important tourney roster. Then, not only thatbut you fail to cap-tie Gideon Zelalem who was probablgood enough to make the roster on his own merit. Zelalem could have made that roster over somebody and been thrown into the game at some point so that he could never play for anybody else. What a missed opportunity. Instead, Klinsmann has his "A" team guys playing in the Baltimore mid-afternoon 95 degree sweatbath for 90 minutes playing against a Cuba team, who lo a bunch of players who defected ad that are honestly not much better than Pitt. If you're wondering why the US attack was so limp, trying to chase the game against Jamaica, consider that most of those guys went 90 minutes in the sweltering heat a few days earlier for no reason. Klinsmann was gifted a bye to the semis but still elected to play at "A" team in that heat.

Don't ruin the Locker Room. Olympic Sports board.....quiet over there, you can discuss Messi's marathon times and Hope Solo's gender I.D.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

If the women had the same options as men in this country with the high profile - and more importantly - high salary sports - the women's team would suck too. I'm not all that educated on soccer and I know this is no great revelation but it's unlikely the men's team will be a consistent factor because most of the best athletes will be playing baseball, basketball, football and even hockey. I have little doubt if our best athletes chose soccer we'd be a power but that's not likely in most if any of our lifetimes.

 

[NTOP]

If the women had the same options as men in this country with the high profile - and more importantly - high salary sports - the women's team would suck too. I'm not all that educated on soccer and I know this is no great revelation but it's unlikely the men's team will be a consistent factor because most of the best athletes will be playing baseball, basketball, football and even hockey. I have little doubt if our best athletes chose soccer we'd be a power but that's not likely in most if any of our lifetimes.

I think that we will be competitive, though....lots of kids play soccer longer than 30 years ago, when it was basically just another way for Moms to get out of the house a bit. Hey, I used to enjoy being with the other families when my kids were playing. It's more competitive, now. My oldest grandson is REALLY good, loves the game Only 11, but I'd expect him to stay involved. Doesn't much care about hoops, sadly.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I know this is no great revelation but it's unlikely the men's team will be a consistent factor because most of the best athletes will be playing baseball, basketball, football

This is true. However, it seems like the program has plateaued. Nobody expects that we should win the WC but we should be able to look like we belong on the field as Belgium who utterly dominated us despite pushing thim to extra time.......and be able to handle teams like Jamaica and Haiti rather easily.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Im familiar with Club America and yes, they would win MLS.......but Alvarado just won a starting job late in the year so I wouldnt call him a "regular starter." Hes a young kid who may have a bright future but right now hes completely lost on the International level. No way hes better than Omar Gonzalez, who BTW would start on any Liga MX team. He's not a DP for nothing.

In Club America's 23 games in the winter season and champions league games Alvarado started 15 of the 23 games. I'm not sure how that doesn't qualify as a regular starter.

As for Gonzalez, yes, he's a DP. He is also pretty generally regarded as having come no where close to living up to his contract (it certainly is still early though). Pretty much since the end of the World Cup last year the general consensus is that his play has been poor. He hasn't been good this year at all. I would have started him over Alvarado against Jamaica, because as I said, the coach needs to be in tune with who is playing well right now and who is not and Alvarado was not playing well. But that decision would be based entirely on how Alvardo was playing, not on how Gonzalez was playing. Because he hasn't put together any sort of stretch of good play for a long time now, for either club or country.

If Cameron is in Klinsman's dog house, that would be nothing new. Other than probably Tim Howard there is no US player who is a regular starter at a higher level team in a higher level league than Cameron. Yet Klinsman rarely calls him in. As to his best position, he's playing right back almost exclusively for a long time for Stoke. You might think that isn't his best position, but the fact that Stoke signed him to a long term contract specifically to play right back tells you that Stoke disagrees with you. They've had plenty of opportunities to move him to center back over the last few years, and yet other than as an injury fill in he never plays there for them.

But that's OK, because Jurgen Klinsman doesn't think his best position is center back or right back. He thinks his best position is as a defensive midfielder (and has said so several times in the past). A position that he pretty much never plays any where except when he's with the US. Because Klinsman knows better than the coaches who see these guys play every day for ten months where people ought to be playing. He's just that much smarter than everyone else.

 

[DT_PITT]

OK, so less than a month after the women win the World Cup, the men suffer their worst upset loss in program history and fail to make the Gold Cup final, being knocked out by a CONCACAF team (other than Mexico) for the first time ever. I don't like to compare the men's and women's team too much because the women have so much less competition since women don't play sports in most of the world, but still its funny that the women's program highest high and the men's team lowest low (arguably) came within a month of each other.

- First of all, for the people on this board that like soccer, do you think we should move these types of discussions over to the Locker Room Board? I was going to post this there first but it seemed like mostly political discussions. Should we start soccer discussions over there?

- Anyway, you cant post about USMNT team without asking the Jurgen Klinsmann question. Should he stay or should he go? I mean, granted, they did have a nice friendly win in Amsterdam then beat an uninspired German B-team, fresh off the beach, in Cologne, but other than that, this has been a pretty bad 12 months since the World Cup. Klinsmann is just all over the place with his team selections and decisions. I would say the "keep or fire" decision should be made after October 10. The USA will play Mexico (or Jamaica) in a 1 game playoff for a berth in the 2017 Confederations Cup. The next day, the USA U23s will have a play-in game in Sandy, Utah for a spot in the 2016 Olympics. Lose both of those games and I think Klinsmann is done (though even with a loss on Oct 10 in Utah, the U23s can still back into the Olympics by winning the 3rd place game on Oct 13 then beating Colombia in a 2 legged series).

- Klinsmann has alienated a lot of people by his bizarre team selections. He continually picks Stanford's Jordan Morris and while Morris has done well in his short time with the team, he's not some young wunderkind. In my opinion, he's not good enough to alienate seasoned professionals by his selection. Same goes for winger Miguel Ibarra, who plays in the 2nd Division NASL. Ibarra may be talented but not talented enough to make waves by taking a 2nd Division player over an MLS player.....and he's done nothing when he's been called upon. Actually these 2 guys didn't make the Gold Cup squad but have been 2 pet peeves of mine which has made me question Klinsmann's mental status and make me wonder if he's capable of leading this program.

- As for the Gold Cup, what a disaster. 2 1-goal wins over Honduras and Haiti, a draw with Panama and a loss to Jamaica. Easily the worst GC ever for the USA and remember Bob Bradley was fired largely for losing to Mexico in the GC Final. Klinsmann may have won the "B-team Gold Cup" in 2013 but when all the "A-teams" were there, his squad struggled mightily.

- I have to question the love affair he seems to have with Ventura Alvarado. It seems like any time he wins a recruiting battle with Mexico over Germany for a low-level dual national that the other nation had no plans for, he has to play him loads to show people how smart he is. Listen, Alvarado is not any good, not at all. I wanted to jump out of my chair when I saw him on the team sheet for the Jamaica game over Omar Gonzalez, who has been in many big games for both club and country. Alvarado was at least partly responsible for all but 1 goal given up in that Gold Cup and his blunder against Honduras was one of the worst examples of 1 on 1 defending, I've ever seen. How in the world can this guy continue to get called upon.

- For me, Gonzalez has to be the mainstay at 1 CB position. The other has to be either Besler, Cameron, or Brooks. The outside backs have to be Johnson and Yedlin. Quit with trying to be cute and putting Yedlin in midfield. Yea, he's pacey, but he's more dangerous as an outside back putting crosses into the box. Yedlin can become a world-class OB but is just an average midfielder. Part of Klinsmann's issues is he can't decide on a lineup. I hope you see a back 4 of Johnson, Gonzalez, Cameron, and Yedlin for the games that matter.

- In the midfield, much has been made of Bradley playing ouf of position in an advanced role but I cant disagree with Klinsmann on this mostly because I Don't know who else could play that position. I would go with Zardes and Bedoya on the wings and either Beckerman orJones as theDCM. Up top, you have Dempsey and either Altidore or Johansson. I can't believe he put ALan Gordon in the game against Jamaica. Yea, he's good in the air and is the all-time leader in MLS goals off the bench but he comes off the bench for a reason. Johansson was knocking at the door and is skilled enough to unlock the Jamaica D. He should have stayed on. If you wanted to bring in a striker, it should have been Wondolowski who is a goal poacher and is better all-around than Gordon.

Before the game, I wanted to throw things at the TV when I heard Alexi Lalas claiming that Guzan should be USA's #1 even when Howard returns from his International sabbatical. This isn't a Landon Donovan situation. Howard didn't take a break from soccer, he took a break from International duty while still playing at a high level in the Premier League. Howard is still one of the best keepers in the world. Guzanwasnt good enough to keep his job at Aston Villa. The Howard/Guzan debate isn't even one. If Howard isn't back in net as the #1 soon, that's a big problem. Guzan played poorly against Jamiaca, handling the ball outside his area (never called, but still have to be aware), not being in position on the Mattocks header, and not getting a hand on the Jamiaca free kick goal. TO be fair, that was a greatee kick and tde the US wall didn't jump but I think Howardmakes that save.

- Lastly, somewhat unrelated, how do you pick Julian Green for the WC and leave Landon the Legend at home but then, a year later, in a less important tournament, you basically say that Green is not good enough to make a less important tourney roster. Then, not only thatbut you fail to cap-tie Gideon Zelalem who was probablgood enough to make the roster on his own merit. Zelalem could have made that roster over somebody and been thrown into the game at some point so that he could never play for anybody else. What a missed opportunity. Instead, Klinsmann has his "A" team guys playing in the Baltimore mid-afternoon 95 degree sweatbath for 90 minutes playing against a Cuba team, who lo a bunch of players who defected ad that are honestly not much better than Pitt. If you're wondering why the US attack was so limp, trying to chase the game against Jamaica, consider that most of those guys went 90 minutes in the sweltering heat a few days earlier for no reason. Klinsmann was gifted a bye to the semis but still elected to play at "A" team in that heat.

SMF -- to answer your question about whether this should be moved to the Locker Room board ..

Count me among those who have no interest in soccer whatsoever. Having said this, as a frequent hoops board poster, I take no issue whatsoever whether you post it on this board, Locker Room or any other. If I don't wish to read it, I simply won't click on it, simple as that.

And even though I have no interest in soccer, I'll even say that I do click on the soccer threads from time to time, just to get a flavor as to what folks are saying about it.

With this, here's my question ... why not post soccer threads on the Pitt football boards that have so many more posters and so much more activity than this one? If your intent is to get some good soccer conversation going (among Pitt fans), don't you think it would be more successful where more people are reading?

 

[IamHeisenberg]

Who would you want if you let JK go? I am mixed on him. Would expect more in some situations but shocked at how well we have done, at times, in others.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Who would you want if you let JK go? I am mixed on him. Would expect more in some situations but shocked at how well we have done, at times, in others.

In Club America's 23 games in the winter season and champions league games Alvarado started 15 of the 23 games. I'm not sure how that doesn't qualify as a regular starter.

As for Gonzalez, yes, he's a DP. He is also pretty generally regarded as having come no where close to living up to his contract (it certainly is still early though). Pretty much since the end of the World Cup last year the general consensus is that his play has been poor. He hasn't been good this year at all. I would have started him over Alvarado against Jamaica, because as I said, the coach needs to be in tune with who is playing well right now and who is not and Alvarado was not playing well. But that decision would be based entirely on how Alvardo was playing, not on how Gonzalez was playing. Because he hasn't put together any sort of stretch of good play for a long time now, for either club or country.

If Cameron is in Klinsman's dog house, that would be nothing new. Other than probably Tim Howard there is no US player who is a regular starter at a higher level team in a higher level league than Cameron. Yet Klinsman rarely calls him in. As to his best position, he's playing right back almost exclusively for a long time for Stoke. You might think that isn't his best position, but the fact that Stoke signed him to a long term contract specifically to play right back tells you that Stoke disagrees with you. They've had plenty of opportunities to move him to center back over the last few years, and yet other than as an injury fill in he never plays there for them.

But that's OK, because Jurgen Klinsman doesn't think his best position is center back or right back. He thinks his best position is as a defensive midfielder (and has said so several times in the past). A position that he pretty much never plays any where except when he's with the US. Because Klinsman knows better than the coaches who see these guys play every day for ten months where people ought to be playing. He's just that much smarter than everyone else.

Looking at the USA team, I see 2 glaring problems:

1. Lack of quality at CB
2. No true #10

The fact that we are discussing USMNT center backs on a college bball board tells you all you need to do. We simply dont have the quality there. Klinsmann even tried Jermaine Jones there earlier this year, partly because his legs are getting a little old for all the running that MF's have to do. However, that experiment did not go well.

We have 4 true center backs (Gonzalez, Brooks, Alvarado, Besler) but none of them are very good. Gonzalez makes the most money and because of that SHOULD be the best, you'd think. Alvarado plays for the best team. Brooks plays in the best league but at one of the lesser sides, and Besler is consistently medicore. Then you throw in guys like Cameron and Ream, who I think are more needed at CB for us because I think we are somewhat OK with Johnson, Yedlin, and Chandler at the outside backs.

I think we all agree that Bradley is best playing in a reserved role, but then the question becomes who's the #10? If not Bradley, then who? Bradley as the #10 reminds me of Mike Young at the 5 last season. We all complained that Young was not a C but he was playing there out of necessity. I cant think of who else I would put there besides Bradley. Can you think of anybody? Dempsey is too greedy and nobody else has the quality you need (Zusi, Diskerud, Green, etc). The guy that I think has that potential but is too young right now is Rubio Rubin, though me mostly plays as a striker. He seems creative enough and good enough on the ball but has that striker's greedy mentality.

I'm not overly concerned with the wing backs or the forwards. I think we're OK there. We're never going to be world class but we have guys at those positions who are good enough.

I'm taking the rest of this post to the Locker Room Board to discuss who you think should start against Mexico.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Those guys are freaks. If they selected soccer in elementary school and stayed with it, yes they would probably be better. These guys are freaks that just happened to select the sports in which they play. They couldn't walk onto a soccer field now and succeed but I have no doubts that they would be great soccer players if that's the route that they selected early on.

 

[Pitt79]

Those guys are freaks. If they selected soccer in elementary school and stayed with it, yes they would probably be better. These guys are freaks that just happened to select the sports in which they play. They couldn't walk onto a soccer field now and succeed but I have no doubts that they would be great soccer players if that's the route that they selected early on.

I don't buy that. Just like I don't believe Messi would have been a great basketball or baseball player if he'd chosen the game as a kid, I don't believe LeBron would be better than Messi if he played only soccer since he was a kid. It's just not that black and white as you make it. Some of you seem to think that soccer is some lesser sport that anybody who's great in the big 3 American sports would have easily mastered it and be better than anybody playing it today and I just don't buy it. You say "these guys are freaks" so are you saying that nobody in Europe is such a "freak" that they would dominate a big 3 American sport if they played as kids? I mean they chose soccer 1st, because it's #1 where they came from.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I don't buy that. Just like I don't believe Messi would have been a great basketball or baseball player if he'd chosen the game as a kid, I don't believe LeBron would be better than Messi if he played only soccer since he was a kid. It's just not that black and white as you make it. Some of you seem to think that soccer is some lesser sport that anybody who's great in the big 3 American sports would have easily mastered it and be better than anybody playing it today and I just don't buy it. You say "these guys are freaks" so are you saying that nobody in Europe is such a "freak" that they would dominate a big 3 American sport if they played as kids? I mean they chose soccer 1st, because it's #1 where they came from.

The best athletes in the world could all have excelled in other sports if they played them early on. Perhaps they picked their best sport but I'm positive that these guys, if given different circumstances growing up could have had fairly equal success in other sports. Now, height would be the one hinderance. Messi's height would have prevented him from excelling in football or basketball but a freak like LeBron would have been one of the best goal-poachers anyone's ever seen.

 

[Pitt79]

The best athletes in the world could all have excelled in other sports if they played them early on. ...LeBron would have been one of the best goal-poachers anyone's ever seen.

There's no way to prove it one way or the other, I just don't buy it. It's not a sure thing that LeBron could translate his athletic ability to soccer. People have this idea that LeBron would kick ass as an NFL WR, maybe? Maybe not? Maybe he makes a team as a 4th or 5th WR, no guarantee he'd be a star. Jordan tried to play baseball, he did a credible job in the low minors, and maybe if he dedicated himself to baseball from childhood he might of made the MLs, maybe? But that doesn't mean he'd be a star, maybe he'd be a reserve OF on a team's bench?

 

[Pitt79]

Did anybody see the Barcelona/Sevilla UEFA Super Cup game last night? What a game Barca won 5-4 in OT after leading 4-1, and underdog Sevilla fought back to tie, even soccer haters would have found this game compelling. Messi scored 2 goals on free kicks and had an assist on the game winner. Clearly convinced me that if LeBron had played soccer all his life he probably wouldn't be great. A lot of the stuff Messi does to dominate, has nothing to do with being the strongest or fastest or jumping the highest.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

people think that guys like Lebron can walk off the basketball court and onto a soccer pitch and be star immediately. My point was that Lebron (or Crosby) would be great at soccer only if he chose soccer at a young age. They have world class athleticism matched by the intangibles(drive). Their skill sets may not lend them to be a Messi, but perhaps they would be a tim Howard, Drogba, or a Gerard.

 

[Pitt79]

people think that guys like Lebron can walk off the basketball court and onto a soccer pitch and be star immediately. My point was that Lebron (or Crosby) would be great at soccer only if he chose soccer at a young age. They have world class athleticism matched by the intangibles(drive). Their skill sets may not lend them to be a Messi, but perhaps they would be a tim Howard, Drogba, or a Gerard.

Or maybe some non-descript guy playing for the Pittsburgh Riverhounds? I just personally don't think just because you're great in one sport, you will be great in any other? How many Bo Jacksons or Dion Sanders have there really been, who have performed at a high level in multiple major league sports? Not many.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Oscar wouldn't be stepping onto an NBA court...ever. Aaron Gray wouldn't be playing in the EPL. Ever. But the elite of the elite, someone like Lebron, would excel at whatever he wanted. If he committed to soccer at the age of 9, we'd have our US National Center back...or a better answer than Jozy up top.

 

[Pitt79]

OK, I'd have to see it to believe it. So there's no way to prove it either way.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Oscar wouldn't be stepping onto an NBA court...ever. Aaron Gray wouldn't be playing in the EPL. Ever. But the elite of the elite, someone like Lebron, would excel at whatever he wanted. If he committed to soccer at the age of 9, we'd have our US National Center back...or a better answer than Jozy up top.

Body frames matter in sports, so no, Aaron Gray (or Tim Duncan or Shaq) could never play in the EPL just like Messi could never play in the NBA. At an early age, they would have realized this and trained for a different sport.

But, be sure, athleticism translates. If Sidney Crosby or LeBron or Steph Curry or Tyler Boyd or James Conner grew up in Barcelona and trained in soccer their entire lives, they would be world-class soccer players. They have the athleticism for the game. Just the same, Cristiano Ronaldo would be a star NFL player if he grew up in Penn Hills, same with guys like Drogba, Pique, Kompany, etc. Some guys like Lampard, Gerrard, Pirlo, Rooney would have been star MLB players.