Thought experiment. Nick Saban resigns from Bama and is announced as Pitt's head coach.

[#99HUGHgreen]

I do think DW did land some good players for sure. But, I do think his recruiting was overrated and incomplete just like every other coach we've had here since and before him. He struggled to recruit QB's, LB's, and OL. His DB's, DL, and RB's were very good.

You suggest that if Nick was coaching those same teams, his record would've been better. I agree. The Big East was a complete laughing stock and the ACC is most definitely a better conference.

The team that you reference that won 10 games under DW was also on the brink of only winning 7 or 8 as well.

You and I both believe Nick is a tremendous coach. I think he's got tremendous schemes and does a great job teaching. But, there are dozen's of guys who do just as good of teaching and implementing great systems all over the place. The difference is Nick's 4th string guard is a 5 star who is chomping at the bit to move up the depth chart to take another 5 star's job. Listen, I had this same conversation with Jeremy Pruitt when he landed one of my former players. I said what is the difference between have's and the have not's? He said the "haves' litter their roster with the elite of the elite knowing a good portion won't make it." The "have-not's are the ones who replace ordinary talent with ordinary talent." Pruitt said it best after his 1st year at Tennessee in that "I didn't forget how to coach defense when I came to Tennessee after leaving Bama, the difference is I had a race car in every garage." Jimmy Johnson said it best - "if I have to teach you how to change directions and run, I can't coach you." In other words, "I can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit."

You would be just a "little" surprised if a coach like Saban/Dabo/Meyer, etc would take a job like PITT? Seriously, I think the national consensus would be floored if they did.

Here's my final thought, if Saban or Dabo would never ever take a job like PITT why do you think top tier kids would come when they're being courted by the Clemson's, Ohio State's, Alabama's, etc.... The logic is the same.

1st, let’sremember what the title of this thread is:

Thought experiment. Nick Saban resigns from Bama and is announced as Pitt's head coach.

With the follow up post by the OP:

How much does he improve recruiting, if any? How much better does Pitt football become, if it improves at all?


It’s not asking, “would Nick Saban ever take the Pitt Job?”

Second, I am not so sure there are a dozen or so coaches (as you suggest) who do as good a job as Saban teaching and implementing schemes- but if there are, they certainly haven’t been doing it as long as him and certainly not with the same level of coaching talent that surrounds Nick.

When you get Nick Saban - you don’t just get one elite coach - you likely get an entire staff of coaches far better at everything (including recruiting) than we’ve ever seen at Pitt -since the late 70’s.

For that reason and for the fact that it’s easier to win in the ACC Coastal (especially not having to play Clemson every year) than it is to win in the SEC or Big Ten as well as some other P5 conferences.

This is a hypothetical situation. Still, it seems incredibly plausible that Nick Saban could win 10 or more games at Pitt pretty quickly... Just as I feel it is very plausible that there is a very talented (but lower profile) coach out there who would not only take the job at Pitt, but also prove winning 10 or more games is doable. The school just needs to start getting smarter about who they hire.

By the way, winning 1O games means you are likely losing at least a 3 game and 11 wins means you are losing 2. Look at Pitt’s schedule over the past 5 years and tell me Nick Saban couldn’t have won 10 and 11 games at least some of those seasons

 

[#99HUGHgreen]

Everywhere he has been at the college level, Saban has found a way to get it done. Pitt is no exception. And his self-deprecating "I may not be the smartest coach" is just his own cornball attempt to conceal the fact that he knows he's the smartest coach out there. he is a highly organized, type-A-plus, uber-competetive, win or die trying head coach.

Yes. That’s exactly the type of coach Pitt needs to go after. They are not going to get Saban but they can surely get someone who undersells and overdelivers. We have yet to hire the guy who is constantly pushing to improve himself and those around him. Someone who recognizes problems before they are costly - often before the season begins and fixes them... and someone who is so tuned in to details that he is bothered by the littlest of mistakes.

A big difference between Narduzzi and Saban:

With a coach like PN you often hear “If we just did these few things better we might have won.”

A coach like Saban rarely has to make those excuses because he and his staff are so anal about every detail of having their team well prepared. Would Saban have been so hands off if he were Pitt’s coach with this mess of an offense over the past few years?

 

[thebadby2]

true, but he wasn't so smart with the Dolphins, so I think there is something to him realizing that killing it on the recruiting trail and have the top-down support from the university are keys to his success moreso than coaching acumen.

Apples and oranges. Much of what works in college doesn't translate to the NFL. he isn't the first great college coach to lay an egg at the pro level.

he does have all those advantages--but he also combines that with his own top-line coaching ability--and that's how you end up with 6 NCs and 11 conference championships, and considered by most to be the greatest college football coach of all time.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Apples and oranges. Much of what works in college doesn't translate to the NFL. he isn't the first great college coach to lay an egg at the pro level.

List the specific things that lead to "much" that work in college football but don't work in the pros?

Defense -

Offense -

Special Teams -


The biggest difference is parity - pure and simple.

Saban has stacked the deck for 2 decades while at LSU and Bama when it comes to talent.

In the NFL you can't do that.

 

[thebadby2]

List the specific things that lead to "much" that work in college football but don't work in the pros?

Defense -

Offense -

Special Teams -


The biggest difference is parity - pure and simple.

Saban has stacked the deck for 2 decades while at LSU and Bama when it comes to talent.

In the NFL you can't do that.

For starters, how about managing and motivating 55 entitled multimillionaires versus a bunch of kids that are looking for your teaching and guidance.

What's your explanation for what Saban did at Toledo and MSU? Stacked deck again? I don' think so.

He certainly has built a monster at Bama and along with Clemson and OSU has vacuumed up the lions share of the best talent in the country, for sure. But to credit his success to just having the best roster is an oversimplification. BAMA is a prime example of what happens when you combine great coaching with great players.

By the way, he was only in Miami for two years, and inherited a crappy 4-12 team that got Wanny fired mid-season. he left on his own steam, pissing off the Dolphins and their fans to this day. What makes you think he wouldn;t have had success had he stuck around a couple more years? Drew Brees failing his Dolphins physical and the Fins ending up with Joey Harrington and Cleo Lemon at QB instead helped him make the decision to go back to the college ranks, along with an unprecedented salary and comp package from Bama that was supposedly negotiated during the middle of the 2006 Dolphins season. I have no doubt Saban would have re-tooled that roster and made them a playoff team in pretty short order if he'd have stuck around.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

For starters, how about managing and motivating 55 entitled multimillionaires versus a bunch of kids that are looking for your teaching and guidance.

What's your explanation for what Saban did at Toledo and MSU? Stacked deck again? I don' think so.

He certainly has built a monster at Bama and along with Clemson and OSU has vacuumed up the lions share of the best talent in the country, for sure. But to credit his success to just having the best roster is an oversimplification. BAMA is a prime example of what happens when you combine great coaching with great players.

By the way, he was only in Miami for two years, and inherited a crappy 4-12 team that got Wanny fired mid-season. he left on his own steam, pissing off the Dolphins and their fans to this day. What makes you think he wouldn;t have had success had he stuck around a couple more years? Drew Brees failing his Dolphins physical and the Fins ending up with Joey Harrington and Cleo Lemon at QB instead helped him make the decision to go back to the college ranks, along with an unprecedented salary and comp package from Bama that was supposedly negotiated during the middle of the 2006 Dolphins season. I have no doubt Saban would have re-tooled that roster and made them a playoff team in pretty short order if he'd have stuck around.

Okay. I was just looking for specifics as to what is makes coaching in the pros compared to college so different. The absolute biggest difference is parity, not motivation.

But, my explanation as to why Nick had success at MSU and Toledo? He's an extremely good coach. But, his resume at MSU and Pat's at PITT are pretty similar - are they not?

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

Okay. I was just looking for specifics as to what is makes coaching in the pros compared to college so different. The absolute biggest difference is parity, not motivation.

But, my explanation as to why Nick had success at MSU and Toledo? He's an extremely good coach. But, his resume at MSU and Pat's at PITT are pretty similar - are they not?

Their resumes are nothing alike because there is a huge difference between being a coordinator and the head coach.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Their resumes are nothing alike because there is a huge difference between being a coordinator and the head coach.

Really?

Saban's record at MSU was
34-24-1 (overall)
23-16-1 (league)
5th place x2
6th place x2
2nd place tie x1
0-3 in bowl games

Duzz's record at PITT is
39-33 (overall)
26-19 (league)
he's never finished lower than 4th in the conference
1-3 bowl games

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

Really?

Saban's record at MSU was
34-24-1 (overall)
23-16-1 (league)
5th place x2
6th place x2
2nd place tie x1
0-3 in bowl games

Duzz's record at PITT is
39-33 (overall)
26-19 (league)
he's never finished lower than 4th in the conference
1-3 bowl games

1) Saban went 9-2 at Toledo. Prior success.
2) Saban had to overcome sanctions at MSU. No sanctions at Pitt.
3) Saban was 9-2 in year 5. Pat has never come close to that winning % in a single season at Pitt.
4) Saban was younger than Narduzzi.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

1) Saban went 9-2 at Toledo. Prior success.
2) Saban had to overcome sanctions at MSU. No sanctions at Pitt.
3) Saban was 9-2 in year 5. Pat has never come close to that winning % in a single season at Pitt.
4) Saban was younger than Narduzzi.

Bro, you're stretching big time.

The numbers are almost identical...

Saban was younger? C'mon... Pat was 49 and Nick was 44 when they took over those jobs.

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

Bro, you're stretching big time.

The numbers are almost identical...

Saban was younger? C'mon... Pat was 49 and Nick was 44 when they took over those jobs.

I presented facts. There is no stretching of the truth. If Saban didn’t have to deal with sanctions at MSU, then his numbers would have been a lot better. Do you think Narduzzi would be the greatest college coach of all time if he was at Alabama? You are the one trying to compare Saban and Narduzzi. That classifies as stretching big time.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

I presented facts. There is no stretching of the truth. If Saban didn’t have to deal with sanctions at MSU, then his numbers would have been a lot better. Do you think Narduzzi would be the greatest college coach of all time if he was at Alabama? You are the one trying to compare Saban and Narduzzi. That classifies as stretching big time.

You presented "facts" that still don't dismay the "fact" that they're w/l record is very similar.

I don't think Saban is the "greatest college coach of all time".

I do think if Duzz, along with 99% of all coaches would be BETTER than they are at their current situation, if they were coaching at Bama.

The only comparison I was making was Saban's time at MSU compared to Duzz's time at Pitt.

 

[cashisking884]

I do think DW did land some good players for sure. But, I do think his recruiting was overrated and incomplete just like every other coach we've had here since and before him. He struggled to recruit QB's, LB's, and OL. His DB's, DL, and RB's were very good.

You suggest that if Nick was coaching those same teams, his record would've been better. I agree. The Big East was a complete laughing stock and the ACC is most definitely a better conference.

The team that you reference that won 10 games under DW was also on the brink of only winning 7 or 8 as well.

You and I both believe Nick is a tremendous coach. I think he's got tremendous schemes and does a great job teaching. But, there are dozen's of guys who do just as good of teaching and implementing great systems all over the place. The difference is Nick's 4th string guard is a 5 star who is chomping at the bit to move up the depth chart to take another 5 star's job. Listen, I had this same conversation with Jeremy Pruitt when he landed one of my former players. I said what is the difference between have's and the have not's? He said the "haves' litter their roster with the elite of the elite knowing a good portion won't make it." The "have-not's are the ones who replace ordinary talent with ordinary talent." Pruitt said it best after his 1st year at Tennessee in that "I didn't forget how to coach defense when I came to Tennessee after leaving Bama, the difference is I had a race car in every garage." Jimmy Johnson said it best - "if I have to teach you how to change directions and run, I can't coach you." In other words, "I can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit."

You would be just a "little" surprised if a coach like Saban/Dabo/Meyer, etc would take a job like PITT? Seriously, I think the national consensus would be floored if they did.

Here's my final thought, if Saban or Dabo would never ever take a job like PITT why do you think top tier kids would come when they're being courted by the Clemson's, Ohio State's, Alabama's, etc.... The logic is the same.

I don’t think many people believe Saban would recruit as well at Pitt as he does at Bama or did at LSU.
I do think Saban would recruit as well at Pitt as Pitt is capable of recruiting. And I do think Saban would have Pitt playing as well as Pitt is capable of playing.

Narduzzi is lacking for both.

 

[thebadby2]

Okay. I was just looking for specifics as to what is makes coaching in the pros compared to college so different. The absolute biggest difference is parity, not motivation.

But, my explanation as to why Nick had success at MSU and Toledo? He's an extremely good coach. But, his resume at MSU and Pat's at PITT are pretty similar - are they not?

Saban inherited a bare cupboard, undisciplined, demoralized mess of a team in year 1 of major NCAA sanctions including the loss of 9 football scholarships. Try recruiting around that little obstacle. Despite the sanctions he landed a strong class with several future NFL players including future All-Yinzer first teamer Plexiglass Burress in his first full recruiting cycle. By year 4 they were 9-2 beating ND, Michigan, OSU, PSU. Right after the PSU win Saban resigned and announced he was headed to LSU. MSU then beat Florida in the Citrus Bowl.

here's a list of people nationwide who would agree with you on comparing the Dooz favorably to Nick Saban:

 

[thebadby2]

I don’t think many people believe Saban would recruit as well at Pitt as he does at Bama or did at LSU.
I do think Saban would recruit as well at Pitt as Pitt is capable of recruiting. And I do think Saban would have Pitt playing as well as Pitt is capable of playing.

Narduzzi is lacking for both.

Can't sum it up any better than that.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Saban inherited a bare cupboard, undisciplined, demoralized mess of a team in year 1 of major NCAA sanctions including the loss of 9 football scholarships. Try recruiting around that little obstacle.

Bare cupboard? I'm not saying it was the 1995 Nebraska squad, but "bare?" Stop exaggerating.

Tony Banks - 2nd round pick
Mushin Muhammad - 2nd round pick
Flozell Adams - 1st round pick
Derrick Mason - 4th round pick
Ike Reese - 5th round pick
Dimitrious Underwood - 1st round pick
Nigea Carter - 6th round pick
Scott Shaw - 5th round pick

I'm not saying that is some plethora of unforgettable talent, but it pretty much looks like a typical PITT run over a 4-5 year cycle in the past 30 years....

BTW, losing 9 scholarships over a 5 year period is not that big of a deal.

Miami lost 31 scholarships after Erickson and Butch Davis went 51-20 w/ one losing season while in the process created one of the most talented teams we've ever seen.