Tuesday 5/19/20 Pitt Basketball Poll!!

[PittPoker]

You know I've debated this with a few friends over the years and most like me feel that yes, Pitt would have.

Now let me be clear, I took Dixon for granted until he left and I saw how low our program sunk to. I didn't appreciate how good a coach he was and I have admitted that here. (Growth I tell ya for me, growth lol).

That being said, obv why myself and lots of others were getting frustrated with Jamie is his lack of tournament success, lots of too early exits.

So getting back to whether if Howland built his legacy here and stayed as long as Jamie, what would have happened? I say yes, I think we not only get to a Final Four but perhaps even win a championship. I think Howland has a knack for not getting his team to play scared and stiff during key games.

So although now I miss Jamie a lot(but still optimistic Capel will get us back to prominence), Howland here instead of Jamie imo gets us at least a couple Final Fours, perhaps a National Championship and a few more sweet 16's. Do I know that for sure? Of course not but what I saw of him at UCLA and the players he was starting to bring in at Pitt before he left, I am pretty confident we definitely make at least 1 Final Four.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Doubt it would have made a difference one way or another. As much bad luck as anything that Dixon missed the one time to Nova. Can't see that proposing Howland staying would have changed anything.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Doubt it would have made a difference one way or another. As much bad luck as anything that Dixon missed the one time to Nova. Can't see that proposing Howland saying would have changed anything.

I also believe that 2011 if Gilbert brown hits a free throw or Nas doesn’t foul and we beat Butler that team has a good shot of making the final 4.

But Pitt is gonna Pitt.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I said yes for two reasons
1. Wonder if he would have been a little better of a recruiter
2. Dixon was so damn close (e.g. Scottie Reynolds) that if you give Dixon a time machine and it is all run back again, we do probably make one.

Neither is a knock on Dixon, our most successful modern era coach by a wide margin.

 

[Bethlehemjohn]

I say yes. I think Ben was a little more relaxed than Jamie and believe that would have translated to our players not being as tight too. He did take UCLA twice too, so we know he had it in him.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I say yes. I think Ben was a little more relaxed than Jamie and believe that would have translated to our players not being as tight too. He did take UCLA twice too, so we know he had it in him.

Three times though obviously the level of recruiting there was a whole other level. A lot of those NBA guys he got were from Cali.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Ben had the difference maker - better eye contact

 

[Ski11585]

No. Ben benefitted from that talent bump at UCLA.

 

[pierre93]

I also believe that 2011 if Gilbert brown hits a free throw or Nas doesn’t foul and we beat Butler that team has a good shot of making the final 4.

But Pitt is gonna Pitt.

Oh great another Pitt is going to Pitt how original again.

 

[pierre93]

You know I've debated this with a few friends over the years and most like me feel that yes, Pitt would have.

Now let me be clear, I took Dixon for granted until he left and I saw how low our program sunk to. I didn't appreciate how good a coach he was and I have admitted that here. (Growth I tell ya for me, growth lol).

That being said, obv why myself and lots of others were getting frustrated with Jamie is his lack of tournament success, lots of too early exits.

So getting back to whether if Howland built his legacy here and stayed as long as Jamie, what would have happened? I say yes, I think we not only get to a Final Four but perhaps even win a championship. I think Howland has a knack for not getting his team to play scared and stiff during key games.

So although now I miss Jamie a lot(but still optimistic Capel will get us back to prominence), Howland here instead of Jamie imo gets us at least a couple Final Fours, perhaps a National Championship and a few more sweet 16's. Do I know that for sure? Of course not but what I saw of him at UCLA and the players he was starting to bring in at Pitt before he left, I am pretty confident we definitely make at least 1 Final Four.

How many times have we had discussions about Capel? He is legit Poker its gonna be fine. Jamie was a class act on and off the court. I remember the times he'd drive himself to our company's events that supported disadvantaged kids. I'm still in contact with him but he has said we're in good hands now. He also sends autographed 8x10 pics of himself in a TCU polo but signs them H2P forever!

 

[DT_PITT]

You know I've debated this with a few friends over the years and most like me feel that yes, Pitt would have.

Now let me be clear, I took Dixon for granted until he left and I saw how low our program sunk to. I didn't appreciate how good a coach he was and I have admitted that here. (Growth I tell ya for me, growth lol).

That being said, obv why myself and lots of others were getting frustrated with Jamie is his lack of tournament success, lots of too early exits.

So getting back to whether if Howland built his legacy here and stayed as long as Jamie, what would have happened? I say yes, I think we not only get to a Final Four but perhaps even win a championship. I think Howland has a knack for not getting his team to play scared and stiff during key games.

So although now I miss Jamie a lot(but still optimistic Capel will get us back to prominence), Howland here instead of Jamie imo gets us at least a couple Final Fours, perhaps a National Championship and a few more sweet 16's. Do I know that for sure? Of course not but what I saw of him at UCLA and the players he was starting to bring in at Pitt before he left, I am pretty confident we definitely make at least 1 Final Four.

I also believe that 2011 if Gilbert brown hits a free throw or Nas doesn’t foul and we beat Butler that team has a good shot of making the final 4.

But Pitt is gonna Pitt.

Interesting poll topic Poker. I'm not sure how I'd vote. I think Ben Howland is an excellent coach. How he turned things around here was amazing. I'd like to think that he probably would have made a Final Four had he stuck around 11 more years. But what divides me on the question is something I know to be true. It was rumored that Howland had said something along the lines of the notion that he couldn't think success could be sustained here. I discussed this notion with somehow who knew Howland well, and he basically said that Howland more or less once said to him something along these lines.

I quoted Bballinsider because I think there's another point. First, I wish I could agree with his notion about the Butler game, but I simply cannot.

To this day, I have no problem expressing my respect for Dixon's abilities as a college basketball coach. And I will say now what I said often then, especially during his last four years -- his bad "years" when he made the NCAA tournament 3 of his last four 4 -- that many likely didn't realize that making the tournament was something to be appreciated more than many Pitt fans did at that time.

Yet, I must also state there is absolutely no doubt that Dixon, for whatever reason, just did not coach a team well in the NCAA tournament. The evidence is simple. His win percentage against Big East teams was 63.8% but his win percentage against Big East caliber teams in the NCAA tournament (1-13 seeds) is 39%. Toss out the 2 wins against a 12 and 13 seeds (iffy Big East caliber teams) and it's down to 31%.

I bring up Dixon's NCAA record because of Howland. As much as I lament Dixon's poor NCAA tournament record, without question in my mind, the worst loss during the entire 2002-2016 period was Howland's 2002 loss to #10 seed Kent State. Sure, Dixon lost to #13 seed Bradley, but that just doesn't compare to the Kent loss by any means -- mostly because the 2002 team was better and the game meant so much more.

So I'm inclined to think that Howland would have made a final four. But there are also reasons to think he wouldn't.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Interesting poll topic Poker. I'm not sure how I'd vote. I think Ben Howland is an excellent coach. How he turned things around here was amazing. I'd like to think that he probably would have made a Final Four had he stuck around 11 more years. But what divides me on the question is something I know to be true. It was rumored that Howland had said something along the lines of the notion that he couldn't think success could be sustained here. I discussed this notion with somehow who knew Howland well, and he basically said that Howland more or less once said to him something along these lines.

I quoted Bballinsider because I think there's another point. First, I wish I could agree with his notion about the Butler game, but I simply cannot.

To this day, I have no problem expressing my respect for Dixon's abilities as a college basketball coach. And I will say now what I said often then, especially during his last four years -- that even his bad "years" when he made the NCAA tournament 3 of his last four 4 -- that we likely realize that making the tournament was something to be appreciated more than many Pitt fans did at that time.

Yet, I must also state there is absolutely no doubt that Dixon, for whatever reason, just did not coach a team well in the NCAA tournament. The evidence is simple. His win percentage against Big East teams was something like 63.8% (forget the actual number) but his win percentage against Big East caliber teams in the NCAA tournament (1-13 seeds) is 39%. Toss out the 2 wins against a 12 and 13 seeds (iffy Big East caliber teams) and it's down to 31%.

I bring up Dixon's NCAA record because of Howland. As much as I lament Dixon's poor NCAA tournament record, without question in my mind, the worst loss during the entire 2002-2016 period was Howland's 2002 loss to #10 seed Kent State. Sure, Dixon lost to #13 seed Bradley, but that just doesn't compare to the Kent loss by any means -- mostly because the 2002 team was better and the game meant so much more.

So I'm inclined to think that Howland would have made a final four. But there are also reasons to think he wouldn't.

lol your post is confusing me. I simply was trying to say if Gilbert makes the FT it’s not a far leap to think we make a similar run to Butler who lost in the title game.

Whether people want to admit it or not, a LOT of the NCAA tournament is luck. And Gilbert Brown missing a game winning FT and Nas Robinson fouling for no damn reason was simply UNLUCKY. There’s no coaching that could’ve been done about those two things. Jamie and other coaches always preach time and score but there’s simply no way you could predict Nas would lose his mind like that and foul.

I also know Jamie was told by Ben that was winning at Pitt was unsustainable. So if Ben didn’t think he could win here, I doubt he would’ve made a final four.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

lol your post is confusing me. I simply was trying to say if Gilbert makes the FT it’s not a far leap to think we make a similar run to Butler who lost in the title game.

Whether people want to admit it or not, a LOT of the NCAA tournament is luck. And Gilbert Brown missing a game winning FT and Nas Robinson fouling for no damn reason was simply UNLUCKY. There’s no coaching that could’ve been done about those two things. Jamie and other coaches always preach time and score but there’s simply no way you could predict Nas would lose his mind like that and foul.

I also know Jamie was told by Ben that was winning at Pitt was unsustainable. So if Ben didn’t think he could win here, I doubt he would’ve made a final four.

IMHO, you are 100% correct about this one for the reasons given.

 

[DT_PITT]

lol your post is confusing me. I simply was trying to say if Gilbert makes the FT it’s not a far leap to think we make a similar run to Butler who lost in the title game.

Whether people want to admit it or not, a LOT of the NCAA tournament is luck. And Gilbert Brown missing a game winning FT and Nas Robinson fouling for no damn reason was simply UNLUCKY. There’s no coaching that could’ve been done about those two things. Jamie and other coaches always preach time and score but there’s simply no way you could predict Nas would lose his mind like that and foul.

I also know Jamie was told by Ben that was winning at Pitt was unsustainable. So if Ben didn’t think he could win here, I doubt he would’ve made a final four.

It's not a far leap at all.

But the better evidence suggests that we would have lost in the next round or two after Butler simply because we didn't ever play well in the NCAA tournament, or at least not at the level we did in the regular season.