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Wake Forest Game & Other Dribbles ...

DT_PITT

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** Right after the 2015-2016 and the Panthers first round loss to Wisconsin, Paul Zeise assessed that the only difference between that season when we finished 9-9 in the ACC and the previous one, when we finished 8-10 and in the NIT, was our basically only our double OT win over Wake Forest. In 14-15, we lost a close one in Winston Salem that started a four game skid that sunk our NCAA bid.

** I can only hope this year’s game proves to be once again so pivotal in the right direction.

** Much has changed since those days however. In those two Wake Forest games combined, the Panthers shot a total of 31 threes. In this one game alone, we blew that number out of the water.

** It was pretty obvious it was the Panthers game plan to hunt shots on the perimeter. And why not? Shots from out there are worth more.

** Wake wasn’t ignoring the three on offense either. I’m not sure I ever recall seeing a college game with 64 attempts from deep.

** Still, scoring 81 points against your foe is usually enough for a win regardless of where they come from. And with the way the Deacons were defending, they seemed all too willing to let us shoot the triple.

** In fact, if you are a Wake Forest fan you were probably pulling your hair out wondering why their guys allowed Greg Elliott to continually receive passes in the corner and shoot a wide open three. Or maybe they wondered why Wake defenders were always switching under screens allowing Hinson to be continually open beyond the arc.

** Sure, there was the stretch when Wake’s 1-3-1 with Andrew Carr’s 6-10 length up top rendered us almost useless as Burton was out of the game. But when Jamarius returned, he provided the Panthers with a way attack their zone.

** In fact, had he not returned, I’m guessing we don’t pull this when out. But thankfully he did and he enabled the Panthers to get the ball inside the 1-3-1 sending Wake back to man. It’s also worth noting that Burton had four assists in the game’s last eight minutes or so.

** I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me that Hinson didn’t take a single shot inside the arc. I guess I should also say that I think a balanced offense is a better offense. Accordingly, it's likely safe to say we aren’t going to hit a team record number of triples every time out, so I hope our Panthers will look to work inside when the time is right.

** Still, let's congratulate our Panthers for outscoring a team that can really score. Wake has the #27 offense in the nation according to Pomeroy and it’s easy to see why. They can score it many ways and hit some really difficult shots.

** And we did find a way to keep Wake to just one field goal in the last five minutes. Our guys deserve credit for really scrambling to defend when it was needed most.

** The Panthers defense would have been aided in the second half had they been able to defend a little better without fouling, even if a few of the fouls were a bit iffy.

** And while I’m on the subject of fouls, when did it become the rule that we every call is a charge instead of a block? Several times today for both teams, we watched charge calls that should have been block calls. In fact, the only offensive foul call that seemed on the money today was Jamarius’ push off in the second half. It’s been this way all year for both the Panthers and our opponents. At least it’s been consistent.

** I confess that perhaps this win doesn’t seem quite as glorious as maybe it should because we lost an early 15 point lead and a 10 point halftime lead. It was also very stressful when it looked many times in the final minutes like we wouldn’t pull this out.

** But we did. And that's pretty darn good!

** So now our Panthers are 7-3 in the ACC and maybe what’s a little more glorious is that this is the first time Coach Capel has garnered seven ACC wins in his 5 seasons here. There’s no doubt that’s a pretty low bar to pass, but pass it he did!

** Going forward, we need Capel and his Panthers to snag seven more ACC wins. If they can get there, maybe we can indeed look at this night as the tipping point on our way to an NCAA tournament matchup.

** Send It In Jerome and Hail to Pitt!
 
** Right after the 2015-2016 and the Panthers first round loss to Wisconsin, Paul Zeise assessed that the only difference between that season when we finished 9-9 in the ACC and the previous one, when we finished 8-10 and in the NIT, was our basically only our double OT win over Wake Forest. In 14-15, we lost a close one in Winston Salem that started a four game skid that sunk our NCAA bid.

** I can only hope this year’s game proves to be once again so pivotal in the right direction.

** Much has changed since those days however. In those two Wake Forest games combined, the Panthers shot a total of 31 threes. In this one game alone, we blew that number out of the water.

** It was pretty obvious it was the Panthers game plan to hunt shots on the perimeter. And why not? Shots from out there are worth more.

** Wake was ignoring the three on offense either. I’m not sure I ever recall seeing a college game with 64 attempts from deep.

** Still, scoring 81 points against your foe is usually enough for a win regardless of where they come from. And with the way the Deacons were defending, they seemed all too willing to let us shoot the triple.

** In fact, if you are a Wake Forest fan you were probably pulling your hair out wondering why their guys allowed Greg Elliott to continually receive passes in the corner and shoot a wide open three. Or maybe they wondered why Wake defenders were always switching under screens allowing Hinson to be continually open beyond the arc.

** Sure, there was the stretch when Wake’s 1-3-1 with Andrew Carr’s 6-10 length up top rendered us almost useless as Burton was out of the game. But when Jamarius returned, he provided the Panthers with a way attack their zone.

** In fact, had he not returned, I’m guessing we don’t pull this when out. But thankfully he did and he enabled the Panthers to get the ball inside the 1-3-1 sending Wake back to man. It’s also worth noting that Burton had four assists in the game’s last eight minutes or so.

** I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me that Hinson didn’t take a single shot inside the arc. I guess I should also say that I think a balanced offense is a better offense. Accordingly, it's likely safe to say we aren’t going to hit a team record number of triples every time out, so I hope our Panthers will look to work inside when the time is right.

** Still, let's congratulate our Panthers for outscoring a team that can really score. Wake has the #27 offense in the nation according to Pomeroy and it’s easy to see why. They can score it many ways and hit some really difficult shots.

** And we did find a way to keep Wake to just one field goal in the last five minutes. Our guys deserve credit for really scrambling to defend when it was needed most.

** The Panthers defense would have been aided in the second half had they been able to defend a little better without fouling, even if a few of the fouls were a bit iffy.

** And while I’m on the subject of fouls, when did it become the rule that we every call is a charge instead of a block? Several times today for both teams, we watched charge calls that should have been block calls. In fact, the only offensive foul call that seemed on the money today was Jamarius’ push off in the second half. It’s been this way all year for both the Panthers and our opponents. At least it’s been consistent.

** I confess that perhaps this win doesn’t seem quite as glorious as maybe it should because we lost an early 15 point lead and a 10 point halftime lead. It was also very stressful when it looked many times in the final minutes like we wouldn’t pull this out.

** But we did. And that's pretty darn good!

** So now our Panthers are 7-3 in the ACC and maybe what’s a little more glorious is that this is the first time Coach Capel has garnered seven ACC wins in his 5 seasons here. There’s no doubt that’s a pretty low bar to pass, but pass it he did!

** Going forward, we need him Capel and his Panthers to snag seven more ACC wins. If they can get there, maybe we can indeed look at this night as the tipping point on our way to an NCAA tournament matchup.

** Send It In Jerome and Hail to Pitt!
There were many iffy calls, especially the one when Hildreth kind of stumbled out of control.

And you are right about the block/charge calls tonight as most were blatant blocks.
 
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There were many iffy calls, especially they one when Hildreth kind of stumbled out of control.

And you are right about the block/charge calls tonight as most were blatant blocks.
What I hate most about those block/charge 50/50 calls??? Don't know? Don't make a call. Let it go. Refs always have to default to blow the whistle. Just let it go. It is okay to have some contact in basketball.
 
** Right after the 2015-2016 and the Panthers first round loss to Wisconsin, Paul Zeise assessed that the only difference between that season when we finished 9-9 in the ACC and the previous one, when we finished 8-10 and in the NIT, was our basically only our double OT win over Wake Forest. In 14-15, we lost a close one in Winston Salem that started a four game skid that sunk our NCAA bid.

** I can only hope this year’s game proves to be once again so pivotal in the right direction.

** Much has changed since those days however. In those two Wake Forest games combined, the Panthers shot a total of 31 threes. In this one game alone, we blew that number out of the water.

** It was pretty obvious it was the Panthers game plan to hunt shots on the perimeter. And why not? Shots from out there are worth more.

** Wake was ignoring the three on offense either. I’m not sure I ever recall seeing a college game with 64 attempts from deep.

** Still, scoring 81 points against your foe is usually enough for a win regardless of where they come from. And with the way the Deacons were defending, they seemed all too willing to let us shoot the triple.

** In fact, if you are a Wake Forest fan you were probably pulling your hair out wondering why their guys allowed Greg Elliott to continually receive passes in the corner and shoot a wide open three. Or maybe they wondered why Wake defenders were always switching under screens allowing Hinson to be continually open beyond the arc.

** Sure, there was the stretch when Wake’s 1-3-1 with Andrew Carr’s 6-10 length up top rendered us almost useless as Burton was out of the game. But when Jamarius returned, he provided the Panthers with a way attack their zone.

** In fact, had he not returned, I’m guessing we don’t pull this when out. But thankfully he did and he enabled the Panthers to get the ball inside the 1-3-1 sending Wake back to man. It’s also worth noting that Burton had four assists in the game’s last eight minutes or so.

** I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me that Hinson didn’t take a single shot inside the arc. I guess I should also say that I think a balanced offense is a better offense. Accordingly, it's likely safe to say we aren’t going to hit a team record number of triples every time out, so I hope our Panthers will look to work inside when the time is right.

** Still, let's congratulate our Panthers for outscoring a team that can really score. Wake has the #27 offense in the nation according to Pomeroy and it’s easy to see why. They can score it many ways and hit some really difficult shots.

** And we did find a way to keep Wake to just one field goal in the last five minutes. Our guys deserve credit for really scrambling to defend when it was needed most.

** The Panthers defense would have been aided in the second half had they been able to defend a little better without fouling, even if a few of the fouls were a bit iffy.

** And while I’m on the subject of fouls, when did it become the rule that we every call is a charge instead of a block? Several times today for both teams, we watched charge calls that should have been block calls. In fact, the only offensive foul call that seemed on the money today was Jamarius’ push off in the second half. It’s been this way all year for both the Panthers and our opponents. At least it’s been consistent.

** I confess that perhaps this win doesn’t seem quite as glorious as maybe it should because we lost an early 15 point lead and a 10 point halftime lead. It was also very stressful when it looked many times in the final minutes like we wouldn’t pull this out.

** But we did. And that's pretty darn good!

** So now our Panthers are 7-3 in the ACC and maybe what’s a little more glorious is that this is the first time Coach Capel has garnered seven ACC wins in his 5 seasons here. There’s no doubt that’s a pretty low bar to pass, but pass it he did!

** Going forward, we need him Capel and his Panthers to snag seven more ACC wins. If they can get there, maybe we can indeed look at this night as the tipping point on our way to an NCAA tournament matchup.

** Send It In Jerome and Hail to Pitt!
I went to the game and met my dad there and he said can you believe we won by 2 and could’ve lost while making 18 3’s? We stink.

I thought about it on the way home and I thought the exact opposite. We’ve had games where we made 4-5 3’s and won and now 18 3’s and won.

Basically, when Burton plays, this team is going to do what it has to do to win the game. And I’m cool with that as I’m sure most are. This team will go as far as Burton will take them as he is the clear best player and most important piece. With 9 assists tonight even with the time missed, it’s clear he’s the straw that stirs the drink.

I can’t help but think this was the biggest stretch of the game though… we desperately needed a bucket, Burton missed a 4 footer, Wake thought they had the rebound secured and started off and it fell into Fede2x hands for an easy layup. Wake forest then missed 2 1 on 1 front ends in the next minute or so and dug themselves deep.

I told Fede2x that was the biggest bucket of the game after, I was being nice since it was his only bucket, but upon going over the game again I think it may have really been. As much as 3’s hurt, when you get an easy bucket that should’ve been going the other way it deflated the hell out of you.

As much as I love Coach Forbes, and I have dating back to his days helping Bruce Pearl cheat, I was curious why he didn’t put Monsato back in the game. They needed his outside shooting to pair with Applebee’s drive as that’s when they were at their best and typically are. I may have to make some inquiries today as to what went on there.
 
There were many iffy calls, especially the one when Hildreth kind of stumbled out of control.

And you are right about the block/charge calls tonight as most were blatant blocks.
An increase in charge vs block calls seems to be a consistent trend all season, not just this game. I’m likely in the minority in liking this new trend. Previously, I hated how offensive players got rewarded for out of control drives to the bucket.

As far as yesterday’s game goes, there was only one which I thought should have definitely been called the other way, a charge called on a WF player that instead should have been a block by Cummings.
 
Watching the last two games it is apparent the teams are trying to shut down the passing lanes when somebody is driving to the basket because they know our guards are not strong enough to drive in and actually score.

I think we will see more of this going forward and teams will dare us to make the three. We did that last night but we do need our guards to drive with more purpose to the basket
In my opinion
 
Curiously, the final margin was just about right numerically. The odds were Pitt by 3 and Sagarin's computer had Pitt by about 0.5 neutral site and about 3 points with home court advantage. So winning by 2 only missed it by a point.
 
Watching the last two games it is apparent the teams are trying to shut down the passing lanes when somebody is driving to the basket because they know our guards are not strong enough to drive in and actually score.

I think we will see more of this going forward and teams will dare us to make the three. We did that last night but we do need our guards to drive with more purpose to the basket
In my opinion
Burton isn’t strong enough to drive in and actually score? Can’t say I’ve felt as confident watching a Pitt game and seeing him drive to the basket as I have any other Pitt player in a long time.
 
Those last two minutes were almost comical. So many “dumb” decisions by coaches and players.
 
There were many iffy calls, especially the one when Hildreth kind of stumbled out of control.

And you are right about the block/charge calls tonight as most were blatant blocks.
The Nelly drawn charge was pretty blatantly a block. Nelly moving up and to the side as the guy (can’t remember player) did a euro to skirt or avoid the charge and the basket went in, I believe. A pretty pivotal part of the game. It’s my most hated play in college basketball. It’s past time to adopt NBA like rules for college hoops in this respect.
 
Watching the last two games it is apparent the teams are trying to shut down the passing lanes when somebody is driving to the basket because they know our guards are not strong enough to drive in and actually score.

I think we will see more of this going forward and teams will dare us to make the three. We did that last night but we do need our guards to drive with more purpose to the basket
In my opinion
This is maybe the most insane thing I’ve read
Burton maybe the best driving guard and finishing we’ve had that I can remember .
He is also very effective in posting up smaller guards
 
There were many iffy calls, especially the one when Hildreth kind of stumbled out of control.

And you are right about the block/charge calls tonight as most were blatant blocks.

They HAVE to start calling flopping. Hildreth's was about as bad a flop as you could ever see. But then Cummings flopped the possession after. I didnt think the refs were very good.
 
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Maybe I miss it because I'm not as active on the BB board as the FB board, but one thing that doesn't seem to be talked about is that this team is also playing w/o 3 guys who were supposed to be key contributors this year with Johnson, Hughley, and Jeffress. So the current guys are playing longer minutes and I'm sure fatigue is a factor when they get in lulls.
 
The Nelly drawn charge was pretty blatantly a block. Nelly moving up and to the side as the guy (can’t remember player) did a euro to skirt or avoid the charge and the basket went in, I believe. A pretty pivotal part of the game. It’s my most hated play in college basketball. It’s past time to adopt NBA like rules for college hoops in this respect.

Nobody wants to see people flopping all over the place. Everyone makes fun of soccer for this but NCAA Basketball is 10 times worse. I watch both, I know. Its not even remotely close. They need to do something about this. Part of the reason teams shoot so many 3s is because if you drive to the basket, you have a good chance of picking up a charge because there's always someone there waiting to get run over.
 
Nobody wants to see people flopping all over the place. Everyone makes fun of soccer for this but NCAA Basketball is 10 times worse. I watch both, I know. Its not even remotely close. They need to do something about this. Part of the reason teams shoot so many 3s is because if you drive to the basket, you have a good chance of picking up a charge because there's always someone there waiting to get run over.

a small step is implementing defensive 3 seconds.
 
Maybe I miss it because I'm not as active on the BB board as the FB board, but one thing that doesn't seem to be talked about is that this team is also playing w/o 3 guys who were supposed to be key contributors this year with Johnson, Hughley, and Jeffress. So the current guys are playing longer minutes and I'm sure fatigue is a factor when they get in lulls.
Hugley stinks, Jeffress is a good defensive piece and Johnson was found money. But yes the fatigue is partly a factor but they have enough good depth that it shouldn’t be. But since Burton is the best creator/finder of his own shots, his knee and stamina are of the utmost importance down the stretch right now.
 
It felt like Wake lost it more than we won it, but I'll take the 7-3 and not being blown out a single time in the ACC big-picture perspective in spite of this team's frustrations. We're kind of like Duke football this year: Clearly flawed and probably benefitting from a down conference, but we refreshingly do not suck for a welcomed change.
 
The Nelly drawn charge was pretty blatantly a block. Nelly moving up and to the side as the guy (can’t remember player) did a euro to skirt or avoid the charge and the basket went in, I believe. A pretty pivotal part of the game. It’s my most hated play in college basketball. It’s past time to adopt NBA like rules for college hoops in this respect.

Agreed but after all of the horse**** calls that have gone against us in recent games - FSU and Duke especially - it felt nice to get that one.

Refs called a makeup reach on a rebound on the next possession. Wasn't a 3 point play but they did try to balance the scales.
 
Hugley stinks, Jeffress is a good defensive piece and Johnson was found money. But yes the fatigue is partly a factor but they have enough good depth that it shouldn’t be. But since Burton is the best creator/finder of his own shots, his knee and stamina are of the utmost importance down the stretch right now.
Maybe Santos plays a bigger role. While not an offensive threat, would his defense been a benefit in the second half last night? Don’t recall seeing him out there that much. Also with the comments about going up big and then having it dwindled down, frustrating yes, but I think honestly regression towards the mean for an average team and the same for better or equals teams to catch up. I think last night they avoided the huge scoreless doubt and hit some big shots when wake got close enough to not let it slip fully away like against FSU. Thankful they pulled it out and keep hope alive. We are not a preseason top 25 team. I am enjoying the fun and excitement again.
 
Agreed but after all of the horse**** calls that have gone against us in recent games - FSU and Duke especially - it felt nice to get that one.

Refs called a makeup reach on a rebound on the next possession. Wasn't a 3 point play but they did try to balance the scales.
The refs have been fine all year. They miss some but haven’t cost us one way or the other. I’m fine with the refs being bad if they’re consistently bad both ways. Just be consistent.
 
There were many iffy calls, especially the one when Hildreth kind of stumbled out of control.
I don't think that was iffy at all. It was flat out wrong. Hildreth saw Fede running beside him, veered into him, then acted like he got hit by a truck. And I seldom complain about the refs. It was karma that he missed the foul shots.

I was concerned about him having the ball in his hands, but in the end Appleby didn't eat good in our neighborhood.
 
I don't think that was iffy at all. It was flat out wrong. Hildreth saw Fede running beside him, veered into him, then acted like he got hit by a truck. And I seldom complain about the refs. It was karma that he missed the foul shots.

I was concerned about him having the ball in his hands, but in the end Appleby didn't eat good in our neighborhood.
Reminded me of when mcgowan would slow down to allow a guy to run up his back . Real jag move
 
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Happy about the win, but...

It is a little frustrating when our "men" play like freshmen. Every game we hear about the maturity of this team, and then we witness some of the dumbest basketball plays. How many time must we watch someone throw an alley oop attempt to Fedi that goes 6 feet over his head out of bounds??? I think I saw at least two last night (Cummings and Hinson for sure).

I get it...we are greatly exceeding expectations, but I see plenty of opportunity to clean some things up and to stop the number of wasted possessions.
 
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Happy about the win, but...

It is a little frustrating when our "men" play like freshmen. Every game we hear about the maturity of this team, and then we witness some of the dumbest basketball plays. How many time must we watch someone throw an alley oop attempt to Fedi that goes 6 feet over his head out of bounds??? I think I saw at least two last night (Cummings and Hinson for sure).

I get it...we are greatly exceeding expectations, but I see plenty of opportunity the clean some thing up and to stop the number of wasted possessions.

Or as the clock is ticking down toward the end of the game, we waste a possession with a shot clock violation. Just a plain, dumb move that veteran teams don't make. If we're that mature of a team, we had no business doing that.
 
Going forward, we need Capel and his Panthers to snag seven more ACC wins.
Seven more wins? Really DT? That's a very tall order with only 10 more games and half of them away.

But have to agree with your concern about not enough shorter range scoring. I assume this will change.
 
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I worry more about fatigue setting in, but their schedule in retrospect was front loaded. A tourney team should be able to win @ND/FSU and at home against BC/GT/UL. That gets them to 12. They need at least one of @VT/UNC/Miami or home against Cuse/Miami for 13. Ideally they win one of the road ones for a quad 1 win. Little room for error, but they have a path.
 
Seven more wins? Really DT? That's a very tall order with only 10 more games and half of them away.

But have to agree with your concern about not enough shorter range scoring. I assume this will change.

I think 7 more wins won't be easy at all, but doable assuming no injuries and we have some luck along the way. This, of course, includes at least 1 or more wins in the ACCT. And that will probably get us in the NCAAT field. If we don't get to 7 more, NIT is within reach. If anyone would have said at the beginning of the year that we would be an NIT team this year, let alone an NCAAT team, we all would have bought that ticket.
 
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I think 7 more wins won't be easy at all, but doable assuming no injuries and we have some luck along the way. This, of course, includes at least 1 or more wins in the ACCT.
If you're including the ACCT, that could make a difference. Then you have more than 10 games and the tournament games would be on a neutral court.
 
Seven more wins? Really DT? That's a very tall order with only 10 more games and half of them away.

But have to agree with your concern about not enough shorter range scoring. I assume this will change.
I was not saying it was not a tall order. I am saying that’s what is needed to assure a spot in the tournament.
 
Curiously, the final margin was just about right numerically. The odds were Pitt by 3 and Sagarin's computer had Pitt by about 0.5 neutral site and about 3 points with home court advantage. So winning by 2 only missed it by a point.
I looked on VEGAS ODDS? And the had us by 2.
 
I was not saying it was not a tall order. I am saying that’s what is needed to assure a spot in the tournament.
That should assure a spot in the tournament, but I hope it won't take that many wins since it is such a tall order. But if we include wins in the ACC Tournament, it might not be as tall an order.
 
That should assure a spot in the tournament, but I hope it won't take that many wins since it is such a tall order. But if we include wins in the ACC Tournament, it might not be as tall an order.
I hear you … time will tell!
 
@DT_PITT

You said:

"** Going forward, we need Capel and his Panthers to snag seven more ACC wins. If they can get there, maybe we can indeed look at this night as the tipping point on our way to an NCAA tournament matchup"
======================

I'm assuming that the remaining seven ACC wins includes the ACC tournament as well, yes?
 
@DT_PITT

You said:

"** Going forward, we need Capel and his Panthers to snag seven more ACC wins. If they can get there, maybe we can indeed look at this night as the tipping point on our way to an NCAA tournament matchup"
======================

I'm assuming that the remaining seven ACC wins includes the ACC tournament as well, yes?
I’m actually not necessarily saying that. I don’t think 13-7 and a win in the ACC tournament gets us in for sure. That seems extremely bubbly to me.

The problem with adding a win in the ACC tournament to get us in, it depends on who that win would be against. A win against a low level team there doesn’t help all that much.

What I feel confident in saying is that 14-6 in the ACC makes me feel sure we are in regardless of the ACC tournament.
 
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