Can any local journalist get a non-ACC source? I refuse to believe that snapping the ball before the officials are ready is just a do-over. As I have said, if this is the case, teams should just snap the ball while the defense is substituting so they can stop the clock late in the game. Why would you wait for the defense to jog guys in and out when time is of the essence. Snap the ball and get the free timeout and do-over.
We still need further clarification on the 5th Down
- Thread starter Sean Miller Fan
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I don't know how much more you need clarified, it's the offense's responsibility to not snap the ball until the ball is made ready for play after a substitution. There needs to be 2 criteria for a ball to be ready for play, the ready signal is given and the center judge is in position to officiate. It's spelled out in the rulebook and even has an example.
Ball Ready for Play—ARTICLE 4
Approved Ruling 4-1-4
I. Snapper A1 snaps the ball before the ball is made ready for play A2 muffs the snap and B1 recovers the ball
RULING: Dead-ball foul, Team A delay of game Penalty—Five yards from the succeeding spot, Team A’s ball The ball does not become alive, and all action should be stopped immediately by the game officials.
So either the center judge ****ed up and didn't leave fast enough, which is hard to believe as you can see the Pitt player still running off the field less than 4 seconds before it's snapped. Or the referee ****ed up on the ruling.
That being said the same thing happened in the Jacksonville State v. MTSU game 3 weeks ago and the offense got a first down, they were forced to do a do-over, and they lost a fumble on the do-over play.
Edit: wait, has the site always censored swearing?
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It was a terrible decision by the refs, and sounds like the ACC is doubling down on stupid. But... 1. it wouldn't have mattered and 2. we are a northern team in a southern conference protecting certain schools.
From the replays, it looks like the center judge moved out of the way to allow UVA to snap -- it's not like they snapped the ball in defiance of him. If that's the case, then center judge must have simply messed up and should not have moved out of the way. My guess is that in those situations, the refs give a do-over instead of calling the penalty since it was the ref's fault, not the team's fault. It was certainly a huge advantage to the offense so that they could call a different play.
I was watching it play out live at the game. The TV replay is hard to see as the camera stayed on the UVA coach for 10 seconds or more while the teams were changing personnel.
The Center ref typically stands and physically blocks the way of the offense from being able to snap the ball. Once the defense has substituted and players have gotten off the field, the head ref will signal the Center ref to move out. On that play, the Center ref started backing out as it was time, but the head ref was asking him to stay longer than he typically would.
This put the Center ref in a bit of limbo, with him behind the QC and no longer blocking the snap, but still standing there right in the middle of the offensive backfield. The UVA QB had no idea he was there so they snapped the ball when they were ready.
So the offense didn't intentionally snap the ball illegally to get a 5 yard penalty. It sucks it played out how it did, but I think that the head ref would have said do over either way.
We know they didn't intentionally snap it illegally. But they snapped it early and that's a penalty. Refs are supposed to get into position. They do that quickly often.
Snapping early is not a penalty. You can snap as early in the snap count as you want, provided the ball has been deemed ready to play. Snapping before "the ball is ready to play" is a penalty. It looked like the ball was made ready to play so they snapped it. The problem was that the center judge was wrong in marking the ball ready for play, which means the offense gets a re-do.
I am waiting to see the replay, but I don't remember the center judge moving more than a step. If I'm remembering correctly he positioned himself about a yard behind the center because UVA had run out of shotgun all game and that's where many center judges stands to stop play when a team is running out of shotgun. Then he took a step back to see the referee past the offensive line while they were going to line up. Pitt's player physically gets off the field 1-2 seconds before the ball is snapped, so it's not like the center judge just hung around forever.
But just getting out of the way of the snap isn't the only part that makes a ball ready for play, the ball is still dead until the center judge gets back into position. It's on the offense to be aware of that, intention of their actions doesn't matter. No one intentionally decides to false start, but when they do it's a penalty.
The only way to snap a ball before it's ready is if it is made ready, so then the rule would be useless.
The rule isn't useless. There definitely could be situations where with the clock ticking away at the end of a half and the offense wants to run a spike really quick, a center tries to snap the ball before the ball is made ready.
Also, I admit the new substitution rules didn't exist when I played, but isn't there a whistle for ready to play? Once that whistle sounds, the center can snap it. If the whistle was inadvertent or wrong, I don't think it would be appropriate to penalize the offense for delay of game, but a re-do could be proper.
The more concerning issue is the ACC wouldn't say that the refs screwed up. From their pov, it helped Virginia (and that dbag DB and his ugly mom in the stands) and so they are ok with it.
This.
So if the ball was marked ready to play by accident and the ref was not fully in position, the crew should have huddled and let the play stand because the ref did not effect the play at all. This type of thing has never happened in the history of football.
I have been watching football for over 60 years and never saw a do over. The line judges were in position and both of them marked the ball short. There was no need for a do over and who would have even known anything was amiss except for the ref who decided to impose his will for no reason.
Sometimes you just have to use common sense. Lets say they let that play stand, would the UVA coaches and fans be up in arms because the center ref was to close to the UVa backfield and wasn't in proper position?
No. Everyone’s eyes were on the ball and ref had no impact on the play. If it had been a normal formation then UVA would have to wait to snap it because he would have been in the way. Common sense always clashes with inflexible policies and the policy wins when humans aren’t able to apply context.
Let's look at this again ........
- The referee said at the time that the play in question was negated because "the official was not in position on the play".
- For the ball to be "ready for play", it is a requirement, by the NCAA rules, that the officials must be in a position to officiate.
- Therefore, since the official was not in position to officiate as the referee explained to the crowd, the ball was NOT, by definition, ready for play and was thus still a dead ball when snapped.
- Even the ACC's explanation of the play started with, "Prior to completion of the substitution process, the ball was IMPROPERLY snapped before the officials were in position to officiate ..............".
- The penalty for snapping the ball before it is ready for play, by rule book, is a 5 yard dead ball foul penalty.
- So, it seems that the play does not count since it was a dead ball, there should have been a 5 yard penalty against UVA to make it 4th and 6, they likely try a FG (or possibly still go for it), and we have 6 minutes instead of 2 to win the game.
- There was no inadvertent whistle or the referee would have stated such in his explanation ....... there is no referee whistle just because of the substitution rule ...... the referee blows his whistle to get the ball ready for play anytime the play clock is reset to 25 seconds to restart it or when there is a stoppage of play and the 40 second clock stops to restart it and the game clock ...... there otherwise is no whistle to signify ready for play during substitutions .... in fact, the play before the controversial play was a 3rd and 2 and Virginia ran the ball for a one yard gain, the game clock and play clock continued to run and in fact the play clock was at 11 seconds and running when the ball was snapped on the controversial play ...... no whistle was required by the referee in that situation even with the substitutions.
- The full explanation by the ACC was "Prior to completion of the substitution process, the ball was improperly snapped before the official was in position to officiate. There is no foul, the play clock is set to 25 seconds and the clock starts on the ready for play signal" ........ this seems incongruent with the rule book and I think further explanation by the ACC or an outside sources are needed to make clear about the rule and to explain how what I said above is not correct (why no penalty against UVA).
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It’s amazing how you can read something without seeing the poster’s name, get to the end of it, and know who it is without seeing their name. This had goalieman all over it. Well done.
As a teenager I put dog shit in his mailbox and arranged his Christmas deer lawn decorations to hump on his front lawn, does that count?
I was thinking something along these lines. Pitt isnt going to get further clarification from the ACC. But you would think one of the folks who covers the team would reach out to a rules expert to get their thoughts and write an article on it. I do not believe that the rule states that the team gets a do-over. I am sorry, but that is incorrect. It should have been a 5 yard penalty.
Might as well just let it go. They ain't gonna do anything....not even an apology. On to Clempson!
I watched Packer go off on his show last night that it didn't change anything because we still had a chance to come down and score. But last I checked, the approach to needing a FG vs needing a TD isn't the same.
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It changed everything. More time and you only have to call plays for the end goal of gaining, what 35-40 yards for a realistic FG attempt.
I'm still in disbelief Colandrea completed that 3rd & 15 pass.
Narduzzi allowed 2:30 of clock to wind down to the 2 min warning without a timeout .
It’s entirely on him .
But at least he went home with 2 timeouts and a loss!
Why ?
Was giving up all that clock to only have less than 1:50 to score a TD to win was a better strategy ?
I think the extra TO there is much more important than 30 seconds. 1:50 is plenty of time to go 75 yds and get a TD. Especially with a backup QB in the game.
And for the record, calling a timeout after Virginia's 3rd down play was so clearly and obviously the right thing to do that it's no wonder that the time management expert Narduzi failed to do it. Just look at the way the rest of the game played out, time-wise, and you can see why.
If they call the time out there, when Pitt threw the interception it still wouldn't have been the two minute warning. Virginia runs a play and you call your last timeout. They run another play and it gets to the two minute warning. So when you stop them on 3rd down (stop laughing, it's a hypothetical!), there's around 1:55 on the clock, meaning that Virginia is punting at around 1:15 and you are getting the ball back with another chance to win the game with around 1:05 left on the clock.
Not calling a timeout there was a huge clock management blunder.
If they call the time out there, when Pitt threw the interception it still wouldn't have been the two minute warning. Virginia runs a play and you call your last timeout. They run another play and it gets to the two minute warning. So when you stop them on 3rd down (stop laughing, it's a hypothetical!), there's around 1:55 on the clock, meaning that Virginia is punting at around 1:15 and you are getting the ball back with another chance to win the game with around 1:05 left on the clock.
Not calling a timeout there was a huge clock management blunder.
No logical thinking coach is going, "Well, let's think about our situation if we turn it over in the next 30 seconds when we get the ball and use our TOs accordingly." Saving a TO for a change of possession contingency plan with less than 3 minutes left is bat shit crazy.
You want the extra TO so running the ball, either on a draw or later near the goal line is an option. 75 yds with a 1:50 left in a tempo offense - Time shouldn't be a factor. Burning a TO would have been dumb.
