Why isn’t CFB more popular in the northeast?

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Paterno’s all-sports conference idea is and always has been incredibly overrated.

Let’s skip right past all the reasons why it never materialized and assume for the sake of a good discussion that he would have agreed to a true partnership type of arrangement — which he had no interest whatsoever in even entertaining. Also, let’s assume that Penn State hadn’t resigned overnight from the Eastern 8 just a few years prior, Robert Irsay style.

It STILL wouldn’t have mattered and we STILL would have ended up right about where we are now!

Paterno’s idea was to have the following schools in his conference:
Penn State
Pitt
Temple
West Virginia
Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
Army
Navy
Maryland (maybe)

That was his big idea. There was never any talk about UConn or Virginia Tech or Florida State or Miami or East Carolina or anyone like that. It was heavily regionalized and that wouldn’t have stood up as the rest of the college athletics landscape changed.

Well, we basically had that anyway in the Big East. We just replaced Penn State, the service academies and maybe Maryland with Miami, Virginia Tech and eventually Louisville, USF, and Cincinnati.

The same dynamic that ultimately claimed the Big East still would have happened to that all eastern sports league, it just would’ve happened without all the basketball success and probably much, much sooner.

Now, maybe if it was a real visionary, like his sycophants always like to pretend he was, and he proposed a league of all the major northern and southern Eastern independents, maybe that league would’ve withstood the changed. Again though, I highly doubt it.

Still, if he really saw where things were going, he would not have suggested that we include the academies. He would have suggested that we instead include the likes of South Carolina, Florida State, East Carolina, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

As for the OP‘s original question, the answer is the clearly professional sports. It’s different here than it is in the south.

There, the big day of the week is Saturday, here it is Sunday. It’s no more complicated than that. Here, for the most part, college athletics are seen as minor league sports. In other parts of the country, they are seen as the highest level of competition or at least the highest level of atmospherics.

Professional football in particular took a hold in this part of the world in the 30s and 40s and 50s. In the south, professional sports really didn’t start making their way down there until the 60s and 70s.

Michigan is different but those are two enormous state universities. That’s definitely an anomaly compared to pretty much anywhere else in the country.

When you see all those rabid Steelers fans in Denver or Dallas or Los Angeles for a game, if there were no Steelers in Pittsburgh, those people would be traveling for Pitt or Penn State games like Birminghamers, for example, might travel to Auburn or Alabama games.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Paterno’s all-sports conference idea is and always has been incredibly overrated.

Let’s skip right past all the reasons why it never materialized and assume for the sake of a good discussion that he would have agreed to a true partnership type of arrangement — which he had no interest whatsoever in even entertaining. Also, let’s assume that Penn State hadn’t resigned overnight from the Eastern 8 just a few years prior, Robert Irsay style.

It STILL wouldn’t have mattered and we STILL would have ended up right about where we are now!

Paterno’s idea was to have the following schools in his conference:
Penn State
Pitt
Temple
West Virginia
Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
Army
Navy
Maryland (maybe)

That was his big idea. There was never any talk about UConn or Virginia Tech or Florida State or Miami or East Carolina or anyone like that. It was heavily regionalized and that wouldn’t have stood up as the rest of the college athletics landscape changed.

Well, we basically had that anyway in the Big East. We just replaced Penn State, the service academies and maybe Maryland with Miami, Virginia Tech and eventually Louisville, USF, and Cincinnati.

The same dynamic that ultimately claimed the Big East still would have happened to that all eastern sports league, it just would’ve happened without all the basketball success and probably much, much sooner.

Now, maybe if it was a real visionary, like his sycophants always like to pretend he was, and he proposed a league of all the major northern and southern Eastern independents, maybe that league would’ve withstood the changed. Again though, I highly doubt it.

Still, if he really saw where things were going, he would not have suggested that we include the academies. He would have suggested that we instead include the likes of South Carolina, Florida State, East Carolina, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc.

Just think about this: The ten biggest eastern independents at the time were Boston College, Florida State, Miami, Notre Dame (I know I know), Penn State, Pitt, SCar, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, and WVU. That would’ve made for a heckuva conference.

At that point, they’d likely be the aggressors and poach the ACC in future years since they’d have no Miami, no FSU, and likely no Clemson if the SEC still wanted an SC school.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yeah, I definitely think that would have made more sense. Can you imagine those road trips?

Also, there are some great game day atmospheres in that group, including East Carolina, which is a really fun place to see a game and which really emerged as an eastern rising power before Virginia Tech emerged. ECU definitely would’ve been included in such an arrangement.

However, I cannot emphasize enough that literally nobody was talking that way back in 1981, whenever this idea was picking up steam.

Everyone pretends that Joe Paterno somehow knew what was coming and no one would listen to him. That is just not true. It’s just typical Penn State apocryphal bullshit.

 

[cease10]

That was his big idea. There was never any talk about UConn or Virginia Tech or Florida State or Miami or East Carolina or anyone like that. It was heavily regionalized and that wouldn’t have stood up as the rest of the college athletics landscape changed.

I for one never said that there was any talk about those schools being added to Paterno's initial conference idea. My point was that there were independent schools available at that time which could've made the conference very strong.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yeah, I hear you. My comments were not directed at anyone in particular. I was just making the point that Paterno’s proposed conference would have delivered us to pretty much the same point where we find ourselves anyway.

However, it is fun to imagine a league like this.

Atlantic-14 Conference
North
Boston College
Penn State
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple
West Virginia

South
Central Florida
East Carolina
Florida State
Louisville
Miami
South Carolina
Virginia Tech

However, the truth is that nothing like that was ever remotely in the cards.

 

[cease10]

The same dynamic that ultimately claimed the Big East still would have happened to that all eastern sports league, it just would’ve happened without all the basketball success and probably much, much sooner.

This is just silly to say that an all Sports Eastern Conference would have the same fate as the Big East. The Big East mainly failed because it was a splintered conference with non-Football playing schools making decisions for football playing schools. It was doomed to fail.

The proposed Eastern league would likely be equal to the ACC, if not better. The Eastern league could likely be the aggressor and end up poaching the ACC.

 

[HailToPitt725]

This is just silly to say that an all Sports Eastern Conference would have the same fate as the Big East. The Big East mainly failed because it was a splintered conference with non-Football playing schools making decisions for football playing schools. It was doomed to fail.

The proposed Eastern league would likely be equal to the ACC, if not better. The Eastern league could likely be the aggressor and end up poaching the ACC.

Since we’re on the subject of the Big East, I really wonder what would’ve happened if the football schools had the foresight to split off from the basketball schools in the 2000s and do their own thing, similar to the AAC. They could’ve gotten a head start on realignment and expanded to the point where their future would be secured. Could’ve called it the Metro Conference.

• North Division
Cincinnati
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple
UConn
West Virginia

• South Division
East Carolina
Houston
Memphis
SMU
South Florida
TCU
Tulane
UCF

I think that conference would’ve done well in the 2010s football-wise. Would’ve made for some fun road trips.

 

[cease10]

Since we’re on the subject of the Big East, I really wonder what would’ve happened if the football schools had the foresight to split off from the basketball schools in the 2000s and do their own thing, similar to the AAC. They could’ve gotten a head start on realignment and expanded to the point where their future would be secured. Could’ve called it the Metro Conference.

• North Division
Cincinnati
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple
UConn
West Virginia

• South Division
East Carolina
Houston
Memphis
SMU
South Florida
TCU
Tulane
UCF

I think that conference would’ve done well in the 2010s football-wise. Would’ve made for some fun road trips.

You can keep that Conference USA, I would want no part if that and would be begging the ACC or Big10 for entry.

 

[HailToPitt725]

You can keep that Conference USA, I would want no part if that and would be begging the ACC or Big10 for entry.

Agreed.

 

[cease10]

However, the truth is that nothing like that was ever remotely in the cards.

I recall coming across this article a few days ago, in which the former WVU AD says otherwise and seems to blame Pitt for not going along.

https://www.timeswv.com/sports/pate...cle_3b3345d1-d38c-5992-b471-a746f711036b.html

It was during the late 1980s that Paterno, already a veteran coach at Penn State, had a dream for eastern football. At the time, WVU and Pitt were both independent in football.

“What he wanted was Syracuse, Boston College, Penn State, West Virginia, Pittsburgh, South Carolina – which was independent then – and Florida State – also independent – to form one football conference,” Pastilong recalled.

“That would have been a powerful conference,” Pastilong said.

Pitt would not go along, however.

“Because of that, it never got off the ground,” Pastilong noted.

 

[pittdan77]

Paterno’s all-sports conference idea is and always has been incredibly overrated.

Let’s skip right past all the reasons why it never materialized and assume for the sake of a good discussion that he would have agreed to a true partnership type of arrangement — which he had no interest whatsoever in even entertaining. Also, let’s assume that Penn State hadn’t resigned overnight from the Eastern 8 just a few years prior, Robert Irsay style.

It STILL wouldn’t have mattered and we STILL would have ended up right about where we are now!

Paterno’s idea was to have the following schools in his conference:
Penn State
Pitt
Temple
West Virginia
Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
Army
Navy
Maryland (maybe)

That was his big idea. There was never any talk about UConn or Virginia Tech or Florida State or Miami or East Carolina or anyone like that. It was heavily regionalized and that wouldn’t have stood up as the rest of the college athletics landscape changed.

Well, we basically had that anyway in the Big East. We just replaced Penn State, the service academies and maybe Maryland with Miami, Virginia Tech and eventually Louisville, USF, and Cincinnati.

The same dynamic that ultimately claimed the Big East still would have happened to that all eastern sports league, it just would’ve happened without all the basketball success and probably much, much sooner.

Now, maybe if it was a real visionary, like his sycophants always like to pretend he was, and he proposed a league of all the major northern and southern Eastern independents, maybe that league would’ve withstood the changed. Again though, I highly doubt it.

Still, if he really saw where things were going, he would not have suggested that we include the academies. He would have suggested that we instead include the likes of South Carolina, Florida State, East Carolina, Miami, Virginia Tech, etc.

I think it’s possible that if Paterno got his Eastern conference, they still jump to the B1G. There was a pretty serious thought at the time that PSU would absolutely dominate the B1G and be in the running for the NC every year.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

This is just silly to say that an all Sports Eastern Conference would have the same fate as the Big East. The Big East mainly failed because it was a splintered conference with non-Football playing schools making decisions for football playing schools. It was doomed to fail.

The proposed Eastern league would likely be equal to the ACC, if not better. The Eastern league could likely be the aggressor and end up poaching the ACC.

I guess I just disagree with your premise. Let’s play this out.

What would have kept Penn State in that league when/if the Big Ten had come calling in the late 80s or early 90s?

Nothing.

What would have kept South Carolina in that league when the SEC came calling around that same time?

The Big East ultimately failed for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was the changing dynamic around the sport that had nothing to do with inner dynamics of that league.

I just don’t think it ever would have been strong enough to withstand those dynamics no matter what happens.

 

[cease10]

I guess I just disagree with your premise. Let’s play this out.

What would have kept Penn State in that league when/if the Big Ten had come calling in the late 80s or early 90s?

Nothing.

What would have kept South Carolina in that league when the SEC came calling around that same time?

The Big East ultimately failed for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was the changing dynamic around the sport that had nothing to do with inner dynamics of that league.

I just don’t think it ever would have been strong enough to withstand those dynamics no matter what happens.

My thoughts are that the main reason that Paterno joined the BiG10 was to find a conference home. I believe that was the only conference home available and by the accounts that I read, the Big East (non football schools) kept denying them entry. There was no other place to go but the Big 10, when they offered.

Now with an all Eastern league, there's no reason for PSU to go to the Big10. They would be in a league with all their traditional rivals, plus a powerhouse of Florida St in the league.

Now, I can't speak for South Carolina. They would be better off in the SEC, but I'm not so sure if they would be so anxious to conference hop again in the 90s. Maybe later on, depending in the landscape.

 

[jtownknowitall]

The Big East only failed because its two best teams left for greener pastures. You could also argue that the Big East lasted as long as it did because Miami agreed to join in the first place.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I recall coming across this article a few days ago, in which the former WVU AD says otherwise and seems to blame Pitt for not going along.

https://www.timeswv.com/sports/pate...cle_3b3345d1-d38c-5992-b471-a746f711036b.html

It was during the late 1980s that Paterno, already a veteran coach at Penn State, had a dream for eastern football. At the time, WVU and Pitt were both independent in football.

“What he wanted was Syracuse, Boston College, Penn State, West Virginia, Pittsburgh, South Carolina – which was independent then – and Florida State – also independent – to form one football conference,” Pastilong recalled.

“That would have been a powerful conference,” Pastilong said.

Pitt would not go along, however.

“Because of that, it never got off the ground,” Pastilong noted.

I just think Pastilong is full of shit.

Let me put it this way, if that scenario was being considered, it was never publicly discussed. What was probably discussed was a Northeast only conference that included the likes of Temple, Rutgers and the military academies.

I can source a lot of articles from that period on that proposed grouping that I’d be happy to share.

However, I do not recall a single article discussing and all Eastern independent alignment. That was just not the way things worked in the early 80s. There was no talk whatsoever of controlling the East Coast or anything like that. That all came later with the advent of cable television.

To further my point, just look at the old Southwest Conference, which was also powerful at that time. Those were all Texas schools, plus Arkansas. That is how conferences were designed in those days.

Now, there was a proposal made years later that would have merged the Big East all sports schools with the Metro League schools. However, the BE schools were never interested in that arrangement. I think that was a more exciting idea for schools like Louisville, Cincinnati and Memphis than it was for schools like Pitt, Boston College and Syracuse.

My final reason for skepticism is just common sense. If the idea was so good and would’ve been sustainable, why would it all depend on Pitt’s participation? That doesn’t make sense.

I mean they made Big East football work without Penn State, which is a much bigger fish. Why would Pitt have to be the linchpin for a league involving Penn State, West Virginia, Florida State, Miami, South Carolina, Syracuse, etc.? The whole thing sounds like BS to me.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

My thoughts are that the main reason that Paterno joined the BiG10 was to find a conference home. I believe that was the only conference home available and by the accounts that I read, the Big East (non football schools) kept denying them entry. There was no other place to go but the Big 10, when they offered.

Now with an all Eastern league, there's no reason for PSU to go to the Big10. They would be in a league with all their traditional rivals, plus a powerhouse of Florida St in the league.

Now, I can't speak for South Carolina. They would be better off in the SEC, but I'm not so sure if they would be so anxious to conference hop again in the 90s. Maybe later on, depending in the landscape.

That’s not exactly what happened though. The timeline is the key to understanding what happened and why.

The Penn State sycophants love to tell this fairytale about how they were snubbed by the other eastern schools and later the Big East for years and years for no apparent reason and they were forced into the Big Ten because they were left with no other choice.

That’s little more than a huge, steaming pile of bullshit.

Everyone had known since the mid-60s that Penn State was the king fish of CFB in the Northeast.

Literally everyone.

Why do you think they freaked out so bad when Pitt won the national championship in 1976? Because they looked at it like we had stolen their destiny from them.

You must understand that Penn State had been so close for so long and had yet to break through. That would come in ‘82 after they robbed Nebraska in Happy Valley, but that’s a story for a different day. Then, in the early 70s, Johnny Majors just waltzes right in and four short years later, Pitt is the national champion.

That went over like a fart in church among the Nittany Nation.

By the late 70s, the two schools had no love or trust for each other whatsoever.

Moreover, nobody else trusted Penn State either. That’s because Paterno was never shy about reminding his neighbors who had the hammer in the relationship. There are plenty of articles about that too.

A key turning point came in the late 70s when Penn State resigned from the Eastern 8 at the league meetings in a middle of the night press release. It was all over a rules change dispute.

Paterno, who was their official AD at the time, was never shy about throwing his weight around and he didn’t really care who it pissed off in the process.

THAT’S why their neighbors kept shunning them, not some inability to recognize that they were much larger and powerful than everyone else, or even a resentment of that power. It was because they simply couldn’t stand Paterno or trust Penn State.

Forget Pitt, why didn’t Syracuse or Boston College want to leave the Big East for Paterno’s conference? In fact, they were so opposed to it that they specifically recruited Pitt to take Penn State’s place.

 

[ameoba defense]

Lot's of interesting points, but the bottom line is that once the Ivys, and Army and Navy stopped being factors, it just left too few schools, with only Pitt, PSU, WVU, and Syracuse really having the history, and fan support to be considered major players. When the Ivys, Army, and Navy were big dogs, college football was huge in the east. As they faded away, large sections of the east no longer had teams to root for. The NFL filled the void.

 

[cease10]

You said all of that just to reinforce my point that the Big East is the one that turned down PSU, and their only conference option was the BIG 10 since the Eastern league was a no go.

That’s not exactly what happened though. The timeline is the key to understanding what happened and why.

The Penn State sycophants love to tell this fairytale about how they were snubbed by the other eastern schools and later the Big East for years and years for no apparent reason and they were forced into the Big Ten because they were left with no other choice.

That’s little more than a huge, steaming pile of bullshit.

Everyone had known since the mid-60s that Penn State was the king fish of CFB in the Northeast.

Literally everyone.

Why do you think they freaked out so bad when Pitt won the national championship in 1976? Because they looked at it like we had stolen their destiny from them.

You must understand that Penn State had been so close for so long and had yet to break through. That would come in ‘82 after they robbed Nebraska in Happy Valley, but that’s a story for a different day. Then, in the early 70s, Johnny Majors just waltzes right in and four short years later, Pitt is the national champion.

That went over like a fart in church among the Nittany Nation.

By the late 70s, the two schools had no love or trust for each other whatsoever.

Moreover, nobody else trusted Penn State either. That’s because Paterno was never shy about reminding his neighbors who had the hammer in the relationship. There are plenty of articles about that too.

A key turning point came in the late 70s when Penn State resigned from the Eastern 8 at the league meetings in a middle of the night press release. It was all over a rules change dispute.

Paterno, who was their official AD at the time, was never shy about throwing his weight around and he didn’t really care who it pissed off in the process.

THAT’S why their neighbors kept shunning them, not some inability to recognize that they were much larger and powerful than everyone else, or even a resentment of that power. It was because they simply couldn’t stand Paterno or trust Penn State.

Forget Pitt, why didn’t Syracuse or Boston College want to leave the Big East for Paterno’s conference? In fact, they were so opposed to it that they specifically recruited Pitt to take Penn State’s place.

 

[cease10]

Also, this is two different time periods. Paterno's initial proposal for the Eastern league was in the early 80s, without the Southern schools being involved.

The second proposal that Pastilong speaks on is in the late 80s, and then includes the southern independent schools.

That’s not exactly what happened though. The timeline is the key to understanding what happened and why.

The Penn State sycophants love to tell this fairytale about how they were snubbed by the other eastern schools and later the Big East for years and years for no apparent reason and they were forced into the Big Ten because they were left with no other choice.

That’s little more than a huge, steaming pile of bullshit.

Everyone had known since the mid-60s that Penn State was the king fish of CFB in the Northeast.

Literally everyone.

Why do you think they freaked out so bad when Pitt won the national championship in 1976? Because they looked at it like we had stolen their destiny from them.

You must understand that Penn State had been so close for so long and had yet to break through. That would come in ‘82 after they robbed Nebraska in Happy Valley, but that’s a story for a different day. Then, in the early 70s, Johnny Majors just waltzes right in and four short years later, Pitt is the national champion.

That went over like a fart in church among the Nittany Nation.

By the late 70s, the two schools had no love or trust for each other whatsoever.

Moreover, nobody else trusted Penn State either. That’s because Paterno was never shy about reminding his neighbors who had the hammer in the relationship. There are plenty of articles about that too.

A key turning point came in the late 70s when Penn State resigned from the Eastern 8 at the league meetings in a middle of the night press release. It was all over a rules change dispute.

Paterno, who was their official AD at the time, was never shy about throwing his weight around and he didn’t really care who it pissed off in the process.

THAT’S why their neighbors kept shunning them, not some inability to recognize that they were much larger and powerful than everyone else, or even a resentment of that power. It was because they simply couldn’t stand Paterno or trust Penn State.

Forget Pitt, why didn’t Syracuse or Boston College want to leave the Big East for Paterno’s conference? In fact, they were so opposed to it that they specifically recruited Pitt to take Penn State’s place.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

You said all of that just to reinforce my point that the Big East is the one that turned down PSU, and their only conference option was the BIG 10 since the Eastern league was a no go.

I’m trying to provide context and nuance. Trust was a major issue and it would’ve been an issue no matter what else happened. That’s why it didn’t happen.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Also, this is two different time periods. Paterno's initial proposal for the Eastern league was in the early 80s, without the Southern schools being involved.

The second proposal that Pastilong speaks on is in the late 80s, and then includes the southern independent schools.

By the late 80s it was done. They were going to the Big Ten pretty much no matter what.

 

[levance2]

As for the OP‘s original question, the answer is the clearly professional sports. It’s different here than it is in the south.

There, the big day of the week is Saturday, here it is Sunday. It’s no more complicated than that. Here, for the most part, college athletics are seen as minor league sports. In other parts of the country, they are seen as the highest level of competition or at least the highest level of atmospherics.

Professional football in particular took a hold in this part of the world in the 30s and 40s and 50s. In the south, professional sports really didn’t start making their way down there until the 60s and 70s.

I think this is an oversimplification. Consider that the Steelers played in Pitt Stadium until 1970. College football was far more popular than the NFL, and had the Steelers not turned things around so starkly in the 70s, things could look different here.

Part of the problem of the NE schools is that Pitt, Syracuse, and BC are all aligned to a single city. Pittsburghers aren't rooting for the Cavs just because Cleveland is nearest to us. Even pro teams like the Rockies or Marlins launched trying to align with an entire state because it makes a difference. Even with success, Miami is usually the black sheep in Florida compared to UF or FSU. The Braves sort of buck that trend, but that might be Ted Turner's doing. That sets us apart from a Michigan or MSU.

Another part of the historical analysis is that in the era that college football was king, very few people were college graduates. Anyone in western PA would've been a Pitt fan. Anyone in the south was rooting for their state school. Once college degrees became more common place, plenty of would-be Pitt fans are now graduates of some D2 or D3 school AND are watching the NFL.

As someone else said, the bigger cities tend to be more like melting pots, and I personally work with alums from UM, VT, NCSt, etc. In a college town like State College or Columbia, SC or Columbus, OH, you probably grow to root on the local team anyway, just as most Pittsburgh transplants end up rooting for the Steelers or Penguins. In that regard, I think Pitt has themselves to blame for being nothing but mediocre for decades.

One of the simplest factors is the size of the institution. Most of the NE unis aren't all that large, especially Pitt. Even a southern school like Wake Forest is going to struggle when you don't have many alums. Syracuse has some pretty notable alumni but overall is even smaller than Pitt. Alabama has 33,000 undergrads, twice as many as Syracuse. Wake Forest has 8,500.

 

[ameoba defense]

There was one last chance to make some moves. In the late 90s, there was talk that FSU, and GT were very unhappy with the level of football in the ACC, and that if the BE football schools were ready to leave the hoops schools behind, they might be interested in forming a new league. Unfortunately, some of the BE schools couldn't stomach the thought of leaving Georgetown and company behind. Thus, when Miami couldn't basically get FSU to come to us, the ACC woke up, saw the threat, and got Miami to come to them. Had the BE football schools been willing to break away, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened. Would Maryland have joined FSU, and GT in the new league? What about Clemson, or would the SEC have just picked them off? Would the ACC have fallen apart, or would they have battled the new league to add some of the remaining indys like Louisville? We'll never know.

 

[Dan1911]

Pro football and baseball are huge. Hockey and pro and college hoops are big.

 

[HailToPitt725]

There was one last chance to make some moves. In the late 90s, there was talk that FSU, and GT were very unhappy with the level of football in the ACC, and that if the BE football schools were ready to leave the hoops schools behind, they might be interested in forming a new league. Unfortunately, some of the BE schools couldn't stomach the thought of leaving Georgetown and company behind. Thus, when Miami couldn't basically get FSU to come to us, the ACC woke up, saw the threat, and got Miami to come to them. Had the BE football schools been willing to break away, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened. Would Maryland have joined FSU, and GT in the new league? What about Clemson, or would the SEC have just picked them off? Would the ACC have fallen apart, or would they have battled the new league to add some of the remaining indys like Louisville? We'll never know.

Interesting. Just imagine for a second that the top eastern independents got together and formed a conference in the 80s. Boston College, FSU, Miami, Notre Dame (I know), Penn State, Pitt, SCar, Cuse, VT, and WVU.

Now imagine they add Georgia Tech, who had just recently won a national championship. Perhaps they poach one of the NC schools to get into that market, or maybe Maryland like you mentioned, to get to 12. That’s probably the toughest conference in the country. What could’ve been...

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Correction. Detroit won at least 2 NFL championships in the 50s. Never in the Super Bowl era.

Hence, "in my lifetime"......

 

[wbrpanther]

Hence, "in my lifetime"......

My sincere apologies. I forgot what a young whippersnapper you are.

 

[ameoba defense]

Hence, "in my lifetime"......

The poster was wrong on one point though. He said Detroit never made a conference championship. Detroit played in the NFC Championship against Washington in 1991.