Would you be happy with Dixon’s TCU results from Pitt?

[pittjas]

Can we stop talking about Jamie for the 100000th time and even Stallings and instead figure out how to make Pitt basketball relevant again? I really couldn’t care less about either of those 2 anymore but it sure as hell would be nice to actually look forward to a Pitt basketball game in the near future.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Absolutely the wrong man at the wrong time and place.

I think place was the most determinant.

I don’t know about that. Any lower level school may have been ecstatic to get a guy like him. But any program where we were at the time (even tho it wasn’t at its peak) I wouldn’t discount the possibility of the same revolt (that presser aside). I’m strictly talking fan reaction.

 

[gary2]

I don’t know about that. Any lower level school may have been ecstatic to get a guy like him. But any program where we were at the time (even tho it wasn’t at its peak) I wouldn’t discount the possibility of the same revolt (that presser aside). I’m strictly talking fan reaction.

Have to disagree. Doubt there would have been overwhelming joy anywhere, but most would have fallen in line and given him a chance.

I hated our Haywood hire, but faced with the reality of it (thankfully short reality), I twisted myself into a pretzel talking about how it might work. (70 year old OC - OK, has to be good - He worked for Jackie)

 

[NTOP]

Everyone knew that Stallings was a horrible replacement from the get go. My heart skipped a beat when I saw his name on ESPN ticker. I was like WTF.

And what are you talking about with Slice. He came to Pitt with Howland. Are you saying that Dixon didn't want him on his staff?

Hmmmm...you don't recall SP INSISTING that Dixon take him back after he failed as a HC?? And he brought us a kid who never saw the floor (others will remember him) and then skipped to CalipariLand. Jamie didn't want him back....period. Then Gallagher fired SP after Chryst's goodbye interview and Barnes was hired probably because he was head of the NCAAT selection cabal. Utah State was not a hoops power. Barnes started messing with Dixon's control of things.....gee, interfering into a control freak's (Dixon) work made a bad bowl of soup. Then his agent pal brought him one of his clients to replace him while barnes was already trying to leave Pitt.
It never hurts to tell the whole story.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Hmmmm...you don't recall SP INSISTING that Dixon take him back after he failed as a HC?? And he brought us a kid who never saw the floor (others will remember him) and then skipped to CalipariLand. Jamie didn't want him back....period. Then Gallagher fired SP after Chryst's goodbye interview and Barnes was hired probably because he was head of the NCAAT selection cabal. Utah State was not a hoops power. Barnes started messing with Dixon's control of things.....gee, interfering into a control freak's (Dixon) work made a bad bowl of soup. Then his agent pal brought him one of his clients to replace him while barnes was already trying to leave Pitt.
It never hurts to tell the whole story.

Maybe cease didn't recall that SP was trying to get Slice back after his unsuccessful coaching stint. Then he was a disaster at Pitt the second time around. That made Dixon very unhappy with the Pitt administration.

 

[NTOP]

Maybe cease didn't recall that SP was trying to get Slice back after his unsuccessful coaching stint. Then he was a disaster at Pitt the second time around. That made Dixon very unhappy with the Pitt administration.

Slice was an interesting guy, but his recruiting was a bit overrated. Second time around was really a bad situation.

 

[TD_6082]

Stallings was in the way down. He most certainly did an admirable job at Vandy for a while. Not a bad coach. I think it was DT that said wrong man wrong time here.

His last team had 2 1st round picks (Baldwin and Jones) and Kornet who had a few stints in the NBA. Got in at large and they lost in the first 4 (I prefer play in). He may have already been checked out until the Pitt job fell into his lap.

Totally agree. I like Kevin Stallings from his time at Vandy, but it was a baffling hire that made zero sense.

Pitt knew what they were getting with Stallings. He had a long resume and track record when he came to Pitt. People that follow hoops should know the kind of guys he recruits and the way he operates at building a program. And I totally understand the outrage at the hire. He's a guy that's been around the block, long in the tooth so to speak and his resume is obviously not as impressive as Dixon's.

Here's what I don't get. The people that seemed to be the most outraged at the Stallings hire and bash him the most are the guys that seem to be totally fine with Dixon's last 5 years at Pitt. Stallings resume totally suggests that given time, he would give comparable results.

I can totally respect the opinion of people that think Stallings sucks and was a terrible hire. However, saying he sucks and then carrying water for Jamie's last 5 years at Pitt, as well as what he's done at TCU... that's something I totally don't get.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Totally agree. I like Kevin Stallings from his time at Vandy, but it was a baffling hire that made zero sense.

Pitt knew what they were getting with Stallings. He had a long resume and track record when he came to Pitt. People that follow hoops should know the kind of guys he recruits and the way he operates at building a program. And I totally understand the outrage at the hire. He's a guy that's been around the block, long in the tooth so to speak and his resume is obviously not as impressive as Dixon's.

Here's what I don't get. The people that seemed to be the most outraged at the Stallings hire and bash him the most are the guys that seem to be totally fine with Dixon's last 5 years at Pitt. Stallings resume totally suggests that given time, he would give comparable results.

I can totally respect the opinion of people that think Stallings sucks and was a terrible hire. However, saying he sucks and then carrying water for Jamie's last 5 years at Pitt, as well as what he's done at TCU... that's something I totally don't get.

Well I know Dixon’s class when he left wasn’t very good. And of course that’s some hindsight. But we’ll never know if he could have turned it back to the good. I can see both sides of it.

 

[gary2]

Well I know Dixon’s class when he left wasn’t very good. And of course that’s some hindsight. But we’ll never know if he could have turned it back to the good. I can see both sides of it.

Any comment on my Haywood analogy In regard to potential other location reactions to a Stallings hire ?

 

[cease10]

Hmmmm...you don't recall SP INSISTING that Dixon take him back after he failed as a HC?? And he brought us a kid who never saw the floor (others will remember him) and then skipped to CalipariLand. Jamie didn't want him back....period. Then Gallagher fired SP after Chryst's goodbye interview and Barnes was hired probably because he was head of the NCAAT selection cabal. Utah State was not a hoops power. Barnes started messing with Dixon's control of things.....gee, interfering into a control freak's (Dixon) work made a bad bowl of soup. Then his agent pal brought him one of his clients to replace him while barnes was already trying to leave Pitt.
It never hurts to tell the whole story.

Ok, I didn't recall the second stint.

Just remember him at Manhattan, Kentucky, and St. Johns.

I know his recruiting was overrated, but I was fine with having some type of NY connection with him.

 

[NTOP]

Ok, I didn't recall the second stint.

Just remember him at Manhattan, Kentucky, and St. Johns.

I know his recruiting was overrated, but I was fine with having some type of NY connection with him.

He did well early on, got the Manhattan job and SP brought him back after that failed. He left on short notice to UK.

 

[DT_PITT]

What Pitt is now is a pathetic bottom feeder.

On what planet is a 45-45 conference record, barely making the tourney 3 of his last 5 years (sent packing after an horrible tourney showing) not a malaise.

Just different perspectives or definitions I suppose. But a four point loss (while attempting shot with 5 seconds to take the lead) as a 10 seed against a 7 seed is not a horrible showing.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Allow me to rephrase, because that statement doesn't quite sum up how I feel.

In no way do I think we should have WANTED to Dixon to move on. It is ridiculous to think a coach who went to 11 of 13 NCAA tournaments should be asked to move on. I fought that point against a larger contingent of the board the night Pitt lost to Wisconsin in the tournament.

Is it possible to suggest that Dixon's ability to be successful had fallen off? Well sure. Or maybe he would have picked things up and put them back where he once was with us previously. We can never know. But I've come to realize some things. 13 years is a long time for a coach, and yes, for some teams and coaches, a parting of the ways can help. Or in our case, it can also lead to disaster.

Another thing I've come realize is what a really good friend of Dixon told me one year after Jamie left. I remarked something along the lines of Dixon having moved into a good situation at TCU. His reply I will never forget: "Oh ... Jamie didn't want to leave Pittsburgh." So I've come to take that to mean that he just didn't want to work under Barnes and the new Chancellor.

Oh, my reply was to you, but not at all directed at you. You seem more compromising with time; sorry, I still insist on calling stupid stupid. This is up there with one of the biggest mistakes in Pitt athletics history near forcing Jock Sutherland out and letting Sherrill walk. I didn't respect people that truly wanted Dixon gone after (or before) the Wisconsin game, and my opinion of people still arguing that a change was needed back then is even lower, if that is even possible. Continued obstinate refusal to accept the reality which unfolded exactly as forewarned is something that is hard to respect. They're largely the same types that thought Pitt was too good to accept an NIT bid. I know how things can snowball with negativity in college athletics and can make it impossible to pull out of a downward slope. I saw first hand how that unwound one of Pitt's prior more-successful-than-most head coaches. But this wasn't it; it was a move of ego and stupidity and, to be at all generous, a lack of any sense of the rhythms of programs and coaching regimes across the landscape.

To your point about 13 years tenure, that is only a long time for a coach because it is so rare in the current environment of major college athletics to perform well enough to last half that long. Retention and support of coaching talent is an area where Pitt has historically been a major failure and this is up there as a prime example.

And of course Dixon didn't want to work for Barnes. Barnes was a meddler that made his lack of support clear. Perhaps the #1 thing that anybody with options and experience will consider, most other things being fairly equal, is who their boss is and their working environment. Dixon had that support with Nordenberg's administration and then he retired. That's a big concern with any turnover, chancellor or AD, and both happened simultaneously. Hopefully Chancellor Gallagher learned his lesson about booster influence and the importance of hiring ADs that go to bat for their proven staff, not seek to undermine them. Luckily, in recent years Pitt does have some great coaching talent that has options to go elsewhere and the environment that Lyke has built is one seemingly of support and without much meddling, and it appears to be helping keep talent in place. Hopefully that continues, and one can hope it eventually works in favor of the hoops program too.

 

[DT_PITT]

Ok, I didn't recall the second stint.

Just remember him at Manhattan, Kentucky, and St. Johns.

I know his recruiting was overrated, but I was fine with having some type of NY connection with him.

The kid who never saw the floor was Tyronne Haughton ... and yes ... he was all Slice because Slice really wanted a shot blocker. But @NTOP is right. Steve Pederson mandated that Dixon bring back Slice and Dixon had to jettison Pat Sandle -- something he did not want to do.

 

[DT_PITT]

Hmmmm...you don't recall SP INSISTING that Dixon take him back after he failed as a HC?? And he brought us a kid who never saw the floor (others will remember him) and then skipped to CalipariLand. Jamie didn't want him back....period. Then Gallagher fired SP after Chryst's goodbye interview and Barnes was hired probably because he was head of the NCAAT selection cabal. Utah State was not a hoops power. Barnes started messing with Dixon's control of things.....gee, interfering into a control freak's (Dixon) work made a bad bowl of soup. Then his agent pal brought him one of his clients to replace him while barnes was already trying to leave Pitt.
It never hurts to tell the whole story.

... And that's pretty much the whole story too!

 

[NTOP]

Just different perspectives or definitions I suppose. But a four point loss (while attempting shot with 5 seconds to take the lead) as a 10 seed against a 7 seed is not a horrible showing.

Shhhhh, he's cherry-picking. His fingers are stained red.

 

[TD_6082]

The kid who never saw the floor was Tyronne Haughton ... and yes ... he was all Slice because Slice really wanted a shot blocker. But @NTOP is right. Steve Pederson mandated that Dixon bring back Slice and Dixon had to jettison Pat Sandle -- something he did not want to do.

You and NTOP have absolutely trashed Jamie Dixon today. A strong HC has to draw the line and stand up for his program sometimes. Dixon always appears to be weak and a bit of an appeaser to his administration.

Why on earth would he not call Barnes out and force a full buyout if he really wanted to stay in Pittsburgh. To agree to move on to TCU under those circumstances is weak. Really weak.

 

[Ski11585]

At the end of the day, my stance is pretty clear. I don’t know if it was time for Dixon to move on or not. But after 15+ years of great work for Pitt as an assistant and HC I think he deserved more patience from the university and from fans after his “downturn” making only 3 of 5 tournaments.

 

[TD_6082]

Just different perspectives or definitions I suppose. But a four point loss (while attempting shot with 5 seconds to take the lead) as a 10 seed against a 7 seed is not a horrible showing.

If you say so.

Hey, have you heard about the SUN BOWL in 2008 in which Pitt only lost by a mere field goal?

 

[DT_PITT]

You and NTOP have absolutely trashed Jamie Dixon today. A strong HC has to draw the line and stand up for his program sometimes. Dixon always appears to be weak and a bit of an appeaser to his administration.

Why on earth would he not call Barnes out and force a full buyout if he really wanted to stay in Pittsburgh. To agree to move on to TCU under those circumstances is weak. Really weak.

You've turned things around and what you are saying doesn't quite make sense. What do you mean would would he not call Barnes out and force a full buyout?

I was told that Dixon didn't want to leave Pittsburgh--sure. But he obviously didn't want to work under Barnes even more. Lowering the buyout plain and simply showed that Barnes wanted to let him go. And this I know is true, because on Sunday night of that weekend, Dixon called his staff on the phone and told them he was staying, and the next day he was announced as TCU's coach because the buyout had been lowered.

If Barnes wanted Dixon to remain as his head coach, then he would have been.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The kid who never saw the floor was Tyronne Haughton ... and yes ... he was all Slice because Slice really wanted a shot blocker. But @NTOP is right. Steve Pederson mandated that Dixon bring back Slice and Dixon had to jettison Pat Sandle -- something he did not want to do.

Haughton was terrible. Only averaded 2-3 PPG at the D2 he transferred to but Slice got him on really short notice after being hired and having been in the G-league for a few years. Cant blame that on Slice. A HC is supposed to recruit too

 

[DT_PITT]

At the end of the day, my stance is pretty clear. I don’t know if it was time for Dixon to move on or not. But after 15+ years of great work for Pitt as an assistant and HC I think he deserved more patience from the university and from fans after his “downturn” making only 3 of 5 tournaments.

I'd agree with this.

 

[DT_PITT]

Haughton was terrible. Only averaded 2-3 PPG at the D2 he transferred to but Slice got him on really short notice after being hired and having been in the G-league for a few years. Cant blame that on Slice. A HC is supposed to recruit too

Haughton was terrible. How can you not blame this on Slice? He pushed for Haughton because he was a shot blocker. Jamie wasn't sold but he gave Slice the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Haughton was terrible. How can you not blame this on Slice? He pushed for Haughton because he was a shot blocker. Jamie wasn't sold but he gave Slice the benefit of the doubt.

He signed him a few weeks after getting the job and not having been "recruiting" for a few years. Sure, it was bad signing but it wasnt like Dixon had some 4 star lined up and Slice talked him out of it. Jamie simply couldn't recruit at the end. It was getting really really bad. That said, I'd take him back in a heartbeat because he is a billion times better than Stallings, Capel, and the MM lottery ticket these guys long for.

 

[DT_PITT]

If you say so.

Hey, have you heard about the SUN BOWL in 2008 in which Pitt only lost by a mere field goal?

It was a game when BOTH teams played a slow pace and played with a defensive posture. Wisconsin's tempo that year was #344 -- 8th slowest in college hoops. Pitt's tempo ranking was #303. I get it slow paced games obviously are not your cup of tea, and I surely wish Dixon had played Luther more. But plain and simply, it wasn't a horrible showing.

 

[DT_PITT]

He signed him a few weeks after getting the job and not having been "recruiting" for a few years. Sure, it was bad signing but it wasnt like Dixon had some 4 star lined up and Slice talked him out of it. Jamie simply couldn't recruit at the end. It was getting really really bad. That said, I'd take him back in a heartbeat because he is a billion times better than Stallings, Capel, and the MM lottery ticket these guys long for.

I completely agree that Dixon was really struggling to get guys to come here, especially during his last two years.

 

[NTOP]

You and NTOP have absolutely trashed Jamie Dixon today. A strong HC has to draw the line and stand up for his program sometimes. Dixon always appears to be weak and a bit of an appeaser to his administration.

Why on earth would he not call Barnes out and force a full buyout if he really wanted to stay in Pittsburgh. To agree to move on to TCU under those circumstances is weak. Really weak.

I'm guessing that you have little contact with living people. Why put up when his immediate boss wants him out?? Make it look like Dixon wanted out (after putting up with SP & Barnes). You can't polish a turd. He deserved better, but Gallagher kissed the other Gallagher's butt. Barnes waived the buyout to get his little "side hustle". If not, TCU would give up & he'd have an unhappy HC to deal with. Dixon saw the writing on the wall and walked away. He wasn't going to put up with that crap for 7 years.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

It was a game when BOTH teams played a slow pace and played with a defensive posture. Wisconsin's tempo that year was #344 -- 8th slowest in college hoops. Pitt's tempo ranking was #303. I get it that slow paced games obviously are not your cup of tea, and wish Dixon had played Luther more. But plain and simply, it wasn't a horrible showing.

Its almost impossible to blow a 12 point lead in a game played at that tempo. After scoring 8 points in the first 15 minutes, Wisconsin outscored us 39-23 in the final 25 minutes. They scored on like every possession.

 

[TD_6082]

I'm guessing that you have little contact with living people. Why put up when his immediate boss wants him out?? Make it look like Dixon wanted out (after putting up with SP & Barnes). You can't polish a turd. He deserved better, but Gallagher kissed the other Gallagher's butt. Barnes waived the buyout to get his little "side hustle". If not, TCU would give up & he'd have an unhappy HC to deal with. Dixon saw the writing on the wall and walked away. He wasn't going to put up with that crap for 7 years.

Dixon isn't very good at politicking is he?

 

[DT_PITT]

Its almost impossible to blow a 12 point lead in a game played at that tempo. After scoring 8 points in the first 15 minutes, Wisconsin outscored us 39-23 in the final 25 minutes. They scored on like every possession.

After we went up 12, Wisconsin scored on 18 of 37 possessions, or 1.05 PPP. That number, while not terrible is not what you want in an NCAA game. Overall, Wisconsin had 56 possessions -- a really slow game.

 

[gary2]

Have to disagree. Doubt there would have been overwhelming joy anywhere, but most would have fallen in line and given him a chance.

I hated our Haywood hire, but faced with the reality of it (thankfully short reality), I twisted myself into a pretzel talking about how it might work. (70 year old OC - OK, has to be good - He worked for Jackie)

Does anyone remember me defending Haywood’s choice of the senior citizen coordinator?

That is what a real fan does for a new coach - Give him a chance

Morris Watts - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[B_Man]

People can poo poo the TCU results under Dixon...but, unlike Pitt which had been to 13 NCAA Tournaments in 15 years...TCU wasn't even a winning program in the MWC or C-USA in that time...and hadn't been a winning program since Billy Tubbs in the WAC, and even then it was just 1 NCAA and 1 NIT in 7 years. So, even an overall record of .500 or better in 5 of 6 years (losing season in COVID season) at a program that had 4 overall winning seasons in 15 prior is respectable.

Yes, the Wisconsin loss was painful. Especially the way we were in a meatgrinder down the stretch...and, the move to the ACC definitely had Pitt in a extended feeling out process (still 112 wins in those last 5 years for Dixon was one of the more successful runs of Pitt basketball outside of the Howland/early Dixon run). Longevity at a school usually has that type of period...would Dixon had adjusted and adapted? We don't know...looks like he did a little in his early stages at TCU...and, then there was a wondering if he could...maybe he found something again this year.

Although after we lost to Wisconsin...knowing we would return a line-up of Young, Artis, Jeter, Cam Johnson, Luther and Chris Jones there was hope we weren't entering a total abyss. Yes, PG was needed to replace RObinson...but, maybe Dixon could have developed WIlson and Kithcart...yes, more was needed after as recruiting stalled out...but, who knows.

Anyway...we are now where we are...and, it stinks. But...again...new day and age, rosters can turn completely over. Just an odd way to watch and root for college sports in hoops. Not sure this landscape is going to really ever favor Pitt

 

[DT_PITT]

People can poo poo the TCU results under Dixon...but, unlike Pitt which had been to 13 NCAA Tournaments in 15 years...TCU wasn't even a winning program in the MWC or C-USA in that time...and hadn't been a winning program since Billy Tubbs in the WAC, and even then it was just 1 NCAA and 1 NIT in 7 years. So, even an overall record of .500 or better in 5 of 6 years (losing season in COVID season) at a program that had 4 overall winning seasons in 15 prior is respectable.

Yes, the Wisconsin loss was painful. Especially the way we were in a meatgrinder down the stretch...and, the move to the ACC definitely had Pitt in a extended feeling out process (still 112 wins in those last 5 years for Dixon was one of the more successful runs of Pitt basketball outside of the Howland/early Dixon run). Longevity at a school usually has that type of period...would Dixon had adjusted and adapted? We don't know...looks like he did a little in his early stages at TCU...and, then there was a wondering if he could...maybe he found something again this year.

Although after we lost to Wisconsin...knowing we would return a line-up of Young, Artis, Jeter, Cam Johnson, Luther and Chris Jones there was hope we weren't entering a total abyss. Yes, PG was needed to replace RObinson...but, maybe Dixon could have developed WIlson and Kithcart...yes, more was needed after as recruiting stalled out...but, who knows.

Anyway...we are now where we are...and, it stinks. But...again...new day and age, rosters can turn completely over. Just an odd way to watch and root for college sports in hoops. Not sure this landscape is going to really ever favor Pitt

What doesn't stink is having you contribute to any thread. Hope you are well. Don't be a stranger.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

It was a game when BOTH teams played a slow pace and played with a defensive posture. Wisconsin's tempo that year was #344 -- 8th slowest in college hoops. Pitt's tempo ranking was #303. I get it slow paced games obviously are not your cup of tea, and I surely wish Dixon had played Luther more. But plain and simply, it wasn't a horrible showi

Sorry , that was the worst played game I ever saw and yes not playing Luther was unexplainable.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

I was a big Jamie fan , but not admitting the decline in the program his last 5 seasons is looking through rose colored glasses . He was constantly scrambling to fill his roster with second rate grad transfers . Saying that , he should’ve been given at least two more seasons ,he earned that level of respect .

Kithcart and Wilson weren’t the answer at pg .

The actual Pete attendance was decreasing too !

 

[DT_PITT]

Sorry , that was the worst played game I ever saw and yes not playing Luther was unexplainable.

I was not one bit happy about Luther not playing also. Screaming at Jamie, I was. Funny thing is, to this day, you have to wonder where we'd be now if Mike Young doesn't crash into James making him miss that runner in the lane.

 

[gary2]

At this point, Jamiehaving a nice season.He might have needed it.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Lots of good points and a good discussion. The fact is that Dixon wanted to stay at Pitt but didn't like his new boss. He felt he could work through it at Pitt, but his boss thought otherwise (prompted by the idiot truckster). He knew he could do better, especially at the stage of his career he was at. When that certain birdbrain booster and his buddy Barnes decided to make it difficult for him to stay, he was effectively pushed out. They pushed him out, as outlined above. Fortunately for him, he ended up in a situation that is 100 times better than anything we've had at Pitt since he left.

I have a lot of other thoughts about this, but I don't think it would help the situation. This program is beyond being mediocre and in the dumpster. The trash hauler is loading it up and is ready to take it to the garbage dump, unless something is done soon to avert that.

 

[DT_PITT]

I was a big Jamie fan , but not admitting the decline in the program his last 5 seasons is looking through rose colored glasses . He was constantly scrambling to fill his roster with second rate grad transfers . Saying that , he should’ve been given at least two more seasons ,he earned that level of respect .

Kithcart and Wilson weren’t the answer at pg .

The actual Pete attendance was decreasing too !

I think everyone clearly acknowledged that the program over the last 5 years under Dixon was indeed a decline from the heights it had been previously. I know that I did. But to me, that didn't mean those last five years were as bad as some suggested. Nor were they a reason move on from a coach, and I would agree at least two more years were in order.

I wonder what would have happed with Kithcart and Wilson. It was surely proven in time they weren't the answer. But Damon was kinda OK in his first year as James' backup. And we didn't yet know what we didn't have in Kithcart. I wonder if Dixon would have gone with either or tried to grab a grad transfer too. Just another thing on the pile of things we'll never know I guess.

The only I do know for sure is that I'd give plenty just to be on the bubble again,

 

[NTOP]

Dixon isn't very good at politicking is he?

Doesn't need to be. His bosses are snakes.