Would you be happy with Dixon’s TCU results from Pitt?

[TIGER-PAUL]

yeah, history says Pitt's in trouble long term here.
Already pining for the golden era also a bad sign.
Most said Howland/Dixon turned Pitt bb into a real 'program'.
Right now its Heather and Jeff.
And so far its a debacle.
We shall see.

 

[Thee Jackie Treehorn]

What Pitt is now is a pathetic bottom feeder.

On what planet is a 45-45 conference record, barely making the tourney 3 of his last 5 years (sent packing after an horrible tourney showing) not a malaise.

Does the observation you make in your first sentence not have any influence whatsoever in changing the perspective of your second observation by adding some relevant historical context? I rarely comment on these Dixon threads because they're repetitive and dull and I like to delude myself with the fantasy that I have better things to do with my time, but it's just astonishing what slow learners Pitt fans can be. A "malaise" of a 60% success rate (or 40% failure rate, if you prefer) in making the NCAA Tournament is now a distant, almost hopeless aspiration as we pathetic bottom feeders occasionally nibble on a few discarded crumbs.

 

[DT_PITT]

Again, not at you, but what I'm curious about the idea that Dixon deserved 2 more years to do what? Get back to the NCAA tournament? that would have happened under Dixon in '17.. get back to the sweet 16? That was never good enough. Another 1 seed? An ACC title? A Final Four? What on earth does giving him 2 more years to do something mean? The man didn't forget to coach. You don't fire people based solely on recruiting class rankings.

The whole idea that "moving on" in 2016 should even have been contemplated at that time was absolutely asinine. You have a proven, championship winning coach in your stable that was still getting on the tournament regularly and was highly and universally respected throughout the college basketball community, and who wanted to stay at the university probably for the rest of his career. Do people still not know how rare that is? After decades of walking in the wilderness in football. After suffering through the 90s in hoops. Decades of next to nothing in every other sport. Look around at college hoops programs all across the landscape that struggle to have anywhere near the consistency of his last five years. If anything, you double down on getting a coach like that what he needs to succeed until he would prove that he couldn't. There is nothing in the track record or his competitive drive that would have suggested that fixing what was "not working" wouldn't have been the more likely outcome. Shoving him out at that time took a special kind of stupid. One can only hope, given the chance, Pitt isn't so stupid with the next proven coach in a bit of a comparative down cycle, but the university's historical track record doesn't give me the confidence that would be the more likely outcome.

For me, it would have been two years of not making the NCAA tournament before I would have considered making a change.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

For me, it would have been two years of not making the NCAA tournament before I would have considered making a change.

I said something similar back then but maybe I said 3 years, I dont remember exactly.

7 years (Dixon II) with only 3 NCAAT bids and only 1 win (over a Colorado team without Spencer Dinwiddie) might have been enough to make a move but of course it would have depended on his recruiting class coming in and players returning.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

I agree....Pitt fans are usually very slow learners and the Pitt administration is quite often very stupid. In the case of Dixon, they were morons in a lot of ways. Neither factor gives me much confidence that we'll do anything going forward but screw this up even more. And in the landscape of college sports now, even if we get a decent coach, he'll be gone in a few years.

 

[NTOP]

Nothing is wrong.

Capel proved you can recruit at Pitt. He just was a bad coach who couldn’t do the other things, most importantly maintain a roster.

Find a replacement who can both recruit at the Capel level and mold, control and maintain a roster.

Happy days will be here again.

I am always ready to throw my support behind any new hire And give the new guy a chance.

Capel's recruiting has been average at best, And he's yet to recruit a decent center. Hugley is a PF.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Capel's recruiting has been average at best, And he's yet to recruit a decent center. Hugley is a PF.

Average?

His 1st full class which is supposed to be one of your best was

Drumgoole
Coulibaly
Murphy
Champagnie

1 NBA guy but 3 mid-majors is a terrible class.

 

[pittchagg]

Capel's recruiting has been average at best, And he's yet to recruit a decent center. Hugley is a PF.

I mean, he’s a center. You can argue about where he slots in terms of how good he is amongst ACC centers, but he’s a center. I have no idea why people have been fighting the obvious with him for years.


Look at a guy like Gueye and Collier (who’s playing out of position) - they’re 4’s. Hugley’s skillset isn’t like that.

 

[gary2]

Capel's recruiting has been average at best, And he's yet to recruit a decent center. Hugley is a PF.

McGoweno, Johnson, Toney, Justin, Hugley, Coulibaly, Femi, Jeffress, Collier (last 2 highly rated but mistakes)

Horton, Nike, Burton, Gueye

He had Mintz

Some say he could have had Julian and Posh Alexander

I am guessing he passed on other gets while holding out for better

That level far exceeded ACC Dixon or Stallings. It would have brought a level of success if he could have managed and maintained his players.

We were “back“ around the time of the Duke game. The Hugley arrest started The end of that sentiment. The near season’s end transfers and the revelation of internal turmoil continued it. the Capel press conference on the transfers wearing a BLM sweatshirt and failing to invite half the media was pathetic. The Lyke ridiculous excuse mission was also pathetic. Covid, Covid, Covid. The Capel mansion tweet ended it for me, the epitome of clueless . He has no idea how to deal with the public. The lack of recruiting since these public utterances is the exclamation point

The opening double digit home loss to Citadel was treated as just another game.

And the same attitude exhibited there and the excuses continue.
.
There was the act of self destruction compounded by never ending excuse making regarding that self destruction.

It really needs to end.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

One of the problems with Capel is even when he can manage to get an average or above average recruit, they either back out of the commitment or they high tail out of here at their first opportunity. He can't coach them enough to want to stick around.

 

[FireballZ]

Again, not at you, but what I'm curious about the idea that Dixon deserved 2 more years to do what? Get back to the NCAA tournament? that would have happened under Dixon in '17.. get back to the sweet 16? That was never good enough. Another 1 seed? An ACC title? A Final Four? What on earth does giving him 2 more years to do something mean? The man didn't forget to coach. You don't fire people based solely on recruiting class rankings.

The whole idea that "moving on" in 2016 should even have been contemplated at that time was absolutely asinine. You have a proven, championship winning coach in your stable that was still getting on the tournament regularly and was highly and universally respected throughout the college basketball community, and who wanted to stay at the university probably for the rest of his career. Do people still not know how rare that is? After decades of walking in the wilderness in football. After suffering through the 90s in hoops. Decades of next to nothing in every other sport. Look around at college hoops programs all across the landscape that struggle to have anywhere near the consistency of his last five years. If anything, you double down on getting a coach like that what he needs to succeed until he would prove that he couldn't. There is nothing in the track record or his competitive drive that would have suggested that fixing what was "not working" wouldn't have been the more likely outcome. Shoving him out at that time took a special kind of stupid. One can only hope, given the chance, Pitt isn't so stupid with the next proven coach in a bit of a comparative down cycle, but the university's historical track record doesn't give me the confidence that would be the more likely outcome.

With all due respect, what is the evidence that he was "shoved out"? He flirted with other positions almost every offseason. It may be fair to say that they finally "let him walk" after one too many demands.

What would be stupid is if he asked for simple things like an increased budget for his assistant coaches, who by that point were quite poor or for upgrades to the facilities that have been recently made, and was told "no".

What was undoubtedly a special kind of stupid was to let a coach of his undeniably strong quality go without enforcing at least some sizeable portion of his buy-out.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

With all due respect, what is the evidence that he was "shoved out"? He flirted with other positions almost every offseason. It may be fair to say that they finally "let him walk" after one too many demands.

What would be stupid is if he asked for simple things like an increased budget for his assistant coaches, who by that point were quite poor or for upgrades to the facilities that have been recently made, and was told "no".

What was undoubtedly a special kind of stupid was to let a coach of his undeniably strong quality go without enforcing at least some sizeable portion of his buy-out.

The evidence has been reiterated in this thread and other places. It's all there to see. Dixon was pushed out and there's no debating that. I'm not going to reiterate it because it's already been done.

The question now becomes how do we change this toxic culture instilled by the 2 coaches that followed Dixon here and get back to at least respectable.

 

[gary2]

The evidence has been reiterated in this thread and other places. It's all there to see. Dixon was pushed out and there's no debating that. I'm not going to reiterate it because it's already been done.

The question now becomes how do we change this toxic culture instilled by the 2 coaches that followed Dixon here and get back to at least respectable.

First step - Hire a new Head Coach

 

[Seneca_Valley]

The evidence has been reiterated in this thread and other places. It's all there to see. Dixon was pushed out and there's no debating that. I'm not going to reiterate it because it's already been done.

The question now becomes how do we change this toxic culture instilled by the 2 coaches that followed Dixon here and get back to at least respectable.

You are so full of it. The only "evidence" I've seen in six years is message board chatter about a "big name booster" who was able to orchestrate it. Never been corroborated. The booster has never been identified. Nothing ever in print which is puzzling give the medias penchant for gotcha reporting. I can't begin to understand people who insist that Dixon was a saint in the proceedings is beyond me. He wanted out and Pitt obliged. Anything else reeks of conspiracy theory.

 

[NTOP]

I mean, he’s a center. You can argue about where he slots in terms of how good he is amongst ACC centers, but he’s a center. I have no idea why people have been fighting the obvious with him for years.


Look at a guy like Gueye and Collier (who’s playing out of position) - they’re 4’s. Hugley’s skillset isn’t like that.

But he loves to chuck up jump shots way out of his range. Doesn't get a lot of blocks, mostly below the rim.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

You are so full of it. The only "evidence" I've seen in six years is message board chatter about a "big name booster" who was able to orchestrate it. Never been corroborated. The booster has never been identified. Nothing ever in print which is puzzling give the medias penchant for gotcha reporting. I can't begin to understand people who insist that Dixon was a saint in the proceedings is beyond me. He wanted out and Pitt obliged. Anything else reeks of conspiracy theory.

Then you're ignorant of facts. The booster has been identified. Dixon said he wanted to stay in Pittsburgh. That is a fact. The Pitt administration and that certain booster did their best to get him out and make it impossible for him to stay while working for a jackass. Like I said, the evidence and facts have been reiterated numerous times and have been in this thread and other places. No conspiracy. If you don't know Dixon, his exact circumstances, and what happened, it would be better if you not comment.

 

[Seneca_Valley]

Then you're ignorant of facts. The booster has been identified. Dixon said he wanted to stay in Pittsburgh. That is a fact. The Pitt administration and that certain booster did their best to get him out and make it impossible for him to stay while working for a jackass. Like I said, the evidence and facts have been reiterated numerous times and have been in this thread and other places. No conspiracy. If you don't know Dixon, his exact circumstances, and what happened, it would be better if you not comment.

Nothing in your reply constitutes a fact. Where, pray tell, has the booster been identified? Certainly not on this message board.

Unless you got something better than "I heard from a friend who heard it from a friend", I would strongly advise you to follow your own advice.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Nothing in your reply constitutes a fact. Where, pray tell, has the booster been identified? Certainly not on this message board.

Unless you got something better than "I heard from a friend who heard it from a friend", I would strongly advise you to follow your own advice.

If a fact is truth about events, than it is a fact, and what happened has been widely known for years in nearly any circle with the slightest connections and has been corroborated by multiple sources. If you are looking for published investigation, you're going to have to wait for the memoirs to be published because it isn't going to come out anywhere in print. The primary booster who was in the ear of Barnes is still a top (very important), high profile booster for the athletic department and easily identifiable to anyone that has read this thread and anyone that noticed any of the more high profile corporate sponsorships of Pitt athletics.

 

[DT_PITT]

If a fact is truth about events, than it is a fact, and what happened has been widely known for years in nearly any circle with the slightest connections and has been corroborated by multiple sources. If you are looking for published investigation, you're going to have to wait for the memoirs to be published because it isn't going to come out anywhere in print. The primary booster who was in the ear of Barnes is still a top (very important), high profile booster for the athletic department and easily identifiable to anyone that has read this thread and has just noticed any of the more high profile corporate sponsorships of Pitt athletics.

The booster was about as public with his intentions as he could be as well.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Nothing in your reply constitutes a fact. Where, pray tell, has the booster been identified? Certainly not on this message board.

Unless you got something better than "I heard from a friend who heard it from a friend", I would strongly advise you to follow your own advice.

He's been identified in this thread. I won't disclose his name for obvious reasons. If you go to Pitt home games, you'd know who he is just by looking at the promotion/advertising ribbons around The Pete. And the facts have been corroborated by more than a few people. 'Nuf said.

So I have a lot more than "I heard it from a friend". Just open your eyes and use your head.

 

[WillFerrell]

And remember this barf piece in the Trib:

The good ole' June breakfast.

These guys give Pitt athletics (financial) boost

 

[TD_6082]

Does the observation you make in your first sentence not have any influence whatsoever in changing the perspective of your second observation by adding some relevant historical context? I rarely comment on these Dixon threads because they're repetitive and dull and I like to delude myself with the fantasy that I have better things to do with my time, but it's just astonishing what slow learners Pitt fans can be. A "malaise" of a 60% success rate (or 40% failure rate, if you prefer) in making the NCAA Tournament is now a distant, almost hopeless aspiration as we pathetic bottom feeders occasionally nibble on a few discarded crumbs.

Does the observation you make in your first sentence not have any influence whatsoever in changing the perspective of your second observation by adding some relevant historical context?

Not at all. A lot of schools fire coaches that barely qualify for the NCAA tourney 3 out of 5 years. (and make an expected early exit) They don't sink to a bottom feeder level. In Pitt's case, they followed up with a uninspiring retread hire that is a program builder - a guy that recruits players that are developed and aren't counted on for significant contribution until they are upperclassman. They fire that coach after 2 years and follow up with another coach that might not have a very good recruiting philosophy fit. (and isn't the best at managing a team)

Pitt's own incompetence is the reason they are in this rut. It's not like the last 5 years of Dixon's tenure were anything special that I would desperately want to hang on to. This is hoops, not football. It's really not near as hard to get back to that level as Pitt is making it. It may seem like a hopeless aspiration to get back to that level, but it's certainly not.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The booster was about as public with his intentions as he could be as well.

I can't imagine how far a Pitt fan would have to have his head buried in the sand to not know who the booster is and what he was all about.

 

[Seneca_Valley]

I can't imagine how far a Pitt fan would have to have his head buried in the sand to not know who the booster is and what he was all about.

Actually, Joe I did know. I have never seen anything, however, for public consumption other than message board chatter. I wonder, how did all the local beat reporters miss the boat. I guess they had their collective heads in the sand too.

Since your snarky reply was meant for me, by all means please educate. Maybe you tell me what steps were taken by said whale and administration to force Dixon out. If said whale wanted Dixon out and had such leverage, why didn't Barnes just fire him.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Actually, Joe I did know. I have never seen anything, however, for public consumption other than message board chatter. I wonder, how did all the local beat reporters miss the boat. I guess they had their collective heads in the sand too.

Since your snarky reply was meant for me, by all means please educate. Maybe you tell me what steps were taken by said whale and administration to force Dixon out. If said whale wanted Dixon out and had such leverage, why didn't Barnes just fire him.

While there have been no direct articles on it, there absolutely have been writers in this town, including the PG's current Pitt basketball beat writer, who have done the same sort of things that people in this thread have about this booster and his name. The fact that you have missed it doesn't mean it isn't true.

And secondly, why on earth would you fire someone and have to pay them off if you can get someone else to hire them instead? How dumb would you have to be to think that something like that was a smart idea?

If you don't understand what Pitt not forcing TCU/Dixon to pay any buyout money means then maybe you would think that firing someone and paying them off was a better idea than letting someone else hire him and not paying any money at all.

 

[TD_6082]

You know, I know Narduzzi broke through this year, but I also know you were a big Pat fan even before this, and it is astounding you could be OK with Pat's record his first 6 years but think Dixon sucked his last 5.

I never said Dixon sucked his last 5 years. Nor have I ever said Dixon should have been pushed out.
It was pretty obvious that both programs were trending in opposite directions though. The basketball program was stale and it was obvious that things were going to get worse before it got better. Had Pitt just left Jamie alone for a couple of more seasons, we wouldn't be having these type debates today. Pretty much everyone would have been on board with a change. (that's my opinion)

And let's be honest about Jamie's last 5 years at Pitt. Unless you are at a program that has a history of absolute garbage, that level just doesn't cut it for very long anywhere. Every year, coaches get ran from programs because their high water mark over a 3 or 4 year span is barely making the NCAA tourney and lose in the first couple of rounds. That isn't unique to Pitt. Tom Crean actually went to 3 NCAA tourneys, 2 Sweet 16s, and won 2 Big Ten regular season titles in his last 5 years at IU.

And just dealing in reality, Pitt football most likely isn't going to stay at the top of the ACC pecking order forever. When they slip back into that 7 or 8 win level for a couple of years, Narduzzi will be viewed as expendable and a booster will probably reach out and oust him too. That's the way things work in college athletics.

 

[Ski11585]

I can't imagine how far a Pitt fan would have to have his head buried in the sand to not know who the booster is and what he was all about.

We’ll. Some of us maybe weren’t that far removed from college that we’d be well keyed in to the ins and outs of Pitt boosters.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

You are so full of it. The only "evidence" I've seen in six years is message board chatter about a "big name booster" who was able to orchestrate it. Never been corroborated. The booster has never been identified. Nothing ever in print which is puzzling give the medias penchant for gotcha reporting. I can't begin to understand people who insist that Dixon was a saint in the proceedings is beyond me. He wanted out and Pitt obliged. Anything else reeks of conspiracy theory.

And some people can just never never never never never admit they were wrong.

Play all the revisionist history you want, but a large portion of the fanbase either flat out wanted Dixon gone, or was not at all upset he left. In retrospect it looks like one of the most idiotic positions a fanbase has ever taken.

And no, this is not like pushing out Dave Wannstedt and would not have been like pushing out Narduzzi before this year or even like if you pushed out Narduzzi if they go 6-6 the next 3 years. You pushed out one of the most successful coaches in the history of arguably the greatest basketball league of all time. THat is insanity.

 

[FireballZ]

Got to live the J’apostles. I won’t use the racist connotation. Saint Jamie.

What has he won one tournament game in a decade+? They are generally of the geriatric variety…

 

[DT_PITT]

Got to live the J’apostles. I won’t use the racist connotation. Saint Jamie.

What has he won one tournament game in a decade+? They are generally of the geriatric variety…

I don't understand this comment. The majority of the conversation has acknowledged that Dixon is far from perfect as a coach. And actually, the conversation is more about whether his more "adequate" results should be accepted more than they were previously.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Got to live the J’apostles. I won’t use the racist connotation. Saint Jamie.

What has he won one tournament game in a decade+? They are generally of the geriatric variety…

Are you on drugs or just drunk? You really need to try and either sober up or write using English words. Or maybe just not post. Your posts make no sense.

 

[gary2]

Have to disagree. Doubt there would have been overwhelming joy anywhere, but most would have fallen in line and given him a chance.

I hated our Haywood hire, but faced with the reality of it (thankfully short reality), I twisted myself into a pretzel talking about how it might work. (70 year old OC - OK, has to be good - He worked for Jackie)

The difference here was he introductory press conference.

That press conference gave air to the narrative that a large percentage of the fanbase wanted to embrace.

That would have happened nowhere else. Few schools had the same devotion to their Head Cloach and animosity towards their AD that did exist here.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

The difference here was he introductory press conference.

That press conference gave air to the narrative that a large percentage of the fanbase wanted to embrace.

That would have happened nowhere else. Few schools had the same devotion to their Head Cloach and animosity towards their AD that did exist here.

lol. Give me a break. I despised the hire, but the press conference actually made me feel somewhat bad for him.

the fanbase knew it was a turd of a hire, press conference or not.

 

[gary2]

lol. Give me a break. I despised the hire, but the press conference actually made me feel somewhat bad for him.

the fanbase knew it was a turd of a hire, press conference or not.

Unlike you, I gave/give all new coaches a chance.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

lol. Give me a break. I despised the hire, but the press conference actually made me feel somewhat bad for him.

the fanbase knew it was a turd of a hire, press conference or not.

No way it was a “splash “ hire !

 

[Fsgolfdr]

Unlike you, I gave/give all new coaches a chance.

Fan and media reaction at the initial news conference had nothing to do with anything that happened to the bb program .

I‘ll give you that it was a bad look, especially after the national scorn the program got in letting JD go . Winning cures all that . Make the tournament and actually win a game he’d had been universally accepted .

Ps ..Your ( or mine ) support or non support also has nothing to do with to what happens on the court .

 

[gary2]

Fan and media reaction at the initial news conference had nothing to do with anything that happened to the bb program .

I‘ll give you that it was a bad look, especially after the national scorn the program got in letting JD go . Winning cures all that . Make the tournament and actually win a game he’d had been universally accepted .

Ps ..Your ( or mine ) support or non support also has nothing to do with to what happens on the court .

My point was a Stallings hire would have been better accepted anywhere else.

Fans would have not been happy, but most would have fallen in line and given him a chance.
that is what I did with the terrible Mike Haywood hire. That is what I have always done for any Pitt hire in any sport.

You did give him a chance. In general, you seem a lot more tolerant and forgiving than most fans.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

My point was a Stallings hire would have been better accepted anywhere else.

Fans would have not been happy, but most would have fallen in line and given him a chance.
that is what I did with the terrible Mike Haywood hire. That is what I have always done for any Pitt hire in any sport.

You did give him a chance. In general, you seem a lot more tolerant and forgiving than most fans.

At a lessor program yes , but not at any of the top programs in the country .

I wanted him to succeed as I want JC to succeed and whomever follows JC .

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Fan and media reaction at the initial news conference had nothing to do with anything that happened to the bb program .

I‘ll give you that it was a bad look, especially after the national scorn the program got in letting JD go . Winning cures all that . Make the tournament and actually win a game he’d had been universally accepted .

Ps ..Your ( or mine ) support or non support also has nothing to do with to what happens on the court .

I actually do think it had something to do with it. Stallings's wife didn't move to Pittsburgh and it was rumored that she was irate after that presser. I am not sure Stallings gave 100% after that. May have had the mentality of "these idiot fans dont deserve me, I'll take my bag of gold and be outta here in a few years."

 

[gary2]

At a lessor program yes , but not at any of the top programs in the country .

I wanted him to succeed as I want JC to succeed and whomever follows JC .

Top programs generally keep their coaches. They are not firing them or forcing them out,