XC

[CMUandPitt]

Very happy at the progress the soccer and v-ball teams have made, but XC is still pretty embarrassing.

Men 11th at conference, Women 14th.

For context - and I know these things are very apples-to-oranges based on course and weather - but CMU's average at their conference meet at Schenley was fifteen seconds faster, and would have easily beat Pitt in a dual.

I'm sure it's simply a matter of resources; does anyone know if there's any plans to give those teams full complements of scholarships?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Very happy at the progress the soccer and v-ball teams have made, but XC is still pretty embarrassing.

Men 11th at conference, Women 14th.

For context - and I know these things are very apples-to-oranges based on course and weather - but CMU's average at their conference meet at Schenley was fifteen seconds faster, and would have easily beat Pitt in a dual.

I'm sure it's simply a matter of resources; does anyone know if there's any plans to give those teams full complements of scholarships?

In all due respect, who cares. Its not even a spectator sport.

 

[DiehardPanther]

Very happy at the progress the soccer and v-ball teams have made, but XC is still pretty embarrassing.

Men 11th at conference, Women 14th.

For context - and I know these things are very apples-to-oranges based on course and weather - but CMU's average at their conference meet at Schenley was fifteen seconds faster, and would have easily beat Pitt in a dual.

I'm sure it's simply a matter of resources; does anyone know if there's any plans to give those teams full complements of scholarships?

If you want to make a difference, then I suggest donating for this sport specifically. I’m sure they’d appreciate it.

 

[CMUandPitt]

In all due respect, who cares. Its not even a spectator sport.

Sure, but that's not really what I'm arguing. HL seemed to indicate that she's interested in improving success across all of the sports and..it's not happening in at least one of them.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

For context - and I know these things are very apples-to-oranges based on course and weather - but CMU's average at their conference meet at Schenley was fifteen seconds faster, and would have easily beat Pitt in a dual.

Of course it's an apples to oranges comparison. Too bad there wasn't some event where Pitt and CMU both competed and we could see how the teams actually fared when running the same course on the same day.

Oh, wait, there was such an event. Both schools ran at the Lehigh meet. Pitt finished 13th. CMU finished 22nd. Pitt's runners came in 22, 36, 73, 98 and 161. CMU's runners came in 89, 115, 122, 138 and 155. The interesting thing is that they actually had two men's races, the big school race and the small school race and CMU decided to "race up" in the big school meet. Are the CMU men a top D3 cross country team?

On the other hand, the Pitt women came in 20th in the "big school" division and the CMU women came in 22nd in the "little school" division.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Sure, but that's not really what I'm arguing. HL seemed to indicate that she's interested in improving success across all of the sports and..it's not happening in at least one of them.

Of course she said that, but non-spectator, non-TV, no-interest sports like XC and T&F have to (and should) receive the least amount of financial support.

 

[ThePanthers]

Sure, but that's not really what I'm arguing. HL seemed to indicate that she's interested in improving success across all of the sports and..it's not happening in at least one of them.

There's a difference between attempting to improve and improving. Some take much longer. Didn't XC just have their first home meet in like 25 years?

 

[Chanceman]

There's a difference between attempting to improve and improving. Some take much longer. Didn't XC just have their first home meet in like 25 years?

They said that but it is not accurate. It's been a long while, but less than 25 years. I was at that meet and it was very spectator friendly as they ran laps around an old steel facility. Schenley park was used back in the day.

 

[CrazyPaco]

There's a difference between attempting to improve and improving. Some take much longer. Didn't XC just have their first home meet in like 25 years?

Home meets in XC are fairly irrelevant. Besides that, Pitt has been going to meets hosted at Schenley Park (Duquesne Duals or CMU hosted invites) forever. Schenley is the true home course, obviously.

Besides that, the Carrie Furness course was just a criterion circuit. It can hardly be considered a home course because 1) it is located in Swissvale 2) it was not even close to a full 6K (women) or 8K (men). I heard one feedback from a participating coach at this new criterion course and it was "not impressed". Now, that is in its first year, but they're not off to a flying start as far as building an event. Frankly, although you see more criterion circuits being run early in the season, most runners hate a looping courses like that. They'll never hold a significant meet there. It is too small of a course and there are too many better competing events to take teams to.

What kills Pitt more than a "home" course, because clearly they could run in Schenley or even Frick if they wanted, is a lack of an outdoor and indoor track facility. Distance is an all-year discipline. Few that are serious about the sport are going to end up at Pitt until that is rectified. Whatever Pitt accomplishes in XC and T&F, without those basic facilities, is gravy.

As far as scholarships, XC and Track get a combined 12.6 for men and 18 for women. As far as I know Pitt is now fully funded. However, it is really up to the coaches how to distribute those scholarships across events (sprints, distance, throws, jumps, multis) so it depends on their priorities and philosophies.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Of course she said that, but non-spectator, non-TV, no-interest sports like XC and T&F have to (and should) receive the least amount of financial support.

You'd be surprised how much interest there is in T&F. That's not surprising thinking for people that have never been to big meets. The Millrose Games, Boston Games, Prefontaine Classic, USATF Championships are all broadcast live on NBC each year (not SN, there's a whole slew of other T&F broadcast live on SN like Penn Relays and Drake Relays). Major Indoor and outdoor conference championship meets are always broadcast. And it is way bigger in Europe.

For boys, T&F also has the highest participation rate if any sport outside of football. XC is sixth behind soccer. For girls, T&F is #1 and XC is sixth. What T&F, at least collegiately, has done very poorly is promote itself and has failed to craft meets in a way that generate interest among casual college sports fans (poor team scoring format, poor order of events, poor pacing of events, death of dual meets, etc).

XC, you can't really broadcast that because of the nature of the courses. But you also can't have a real T&F program without XC. It is also a very cheap sport.

 

[Chanceman]

The absence of an outdoor track is a killer. When I ran cross-country, I had never seen a criterium course and I'd hate to have run one. When I did some bike racing after graduation from college, I saw no problem riding in them.

I've run on the indoor track at the Fitzgerald Field House for training but have never seen a meet there.

 

[CrazyPaco]

The absence of an outdoor track is a killer. When I ran cross-country, I had never seen a criterium course and I'd hate to have run one. When I did some bike racing after graduation from college, I saw no problem riding in them.

I've run on the indoor track at the Fitzgerald Field House for training but have never seen a meet there.

There's been a general trend in XC to participate in fewer and fewer meets. Early season meets are often populated with "b" teams. There aren't many criterion races, but a few have been popping up in the early season. Bucknell had one last year.

Pitt's track situation will be rectified eventually. It's on the drawing board with the rest of Victory Heights. Of course, a track has been on the drawing board for 20 years so I'm not holding my breath.

Back in the 80s meets were held in the Fitz...high school and college.

 

[ThePanthers]

Home meets in XC are fairly irrelevant. Besides that, Pitt has been going to meets hosted at Schenley Park (Duquesne Duals or CMU hosted invites) forever. Schenley is the true home course, obviously.

Besides that, the Carrie Furness course was just a criterion circuit. It can hardly be considered a home course because 1) it is located in Swissvale 2) it was not even close to a full 6K (women) or 8K (men). I heard one feedback from a participating coach at this new criterion course and it was "not impressed". Now, that is in its first year, but they're not off to a flying start as far as building an event. Frankly, although you see more criterion circuits being run early in the season, most runners hate a looping courses like that. They'll never hold a significant meet there. It is too small of a course and there are too many better competing events to take teams to.

What kills Pitt more than a "home" course, because clearly they could run in Schenley or even Frick if they wanted, is a lack of an outdoor and indoor track facility. Distance is an all-year discipline. Few that are serious about the sport are going to end up at Pitt until that is rectified. Whatever Pitt accomplishes in XC and T&F, without those basic facilities, is gravy.

As far as scholarships, XC and Track get a combined 12.6 for men and 18 for women. As far as I know Pitt is now fully funded. However, it is really up to the coaches how to distribute those scholarships across events (sprints, distance, throws, jumps, multis) so it depends on their priorities and philosophies.

Thanks. I'll be honest, I dont know much about xc so the input is helpful. Hopefully the victory heights initiative, if it can raise the funding, will help.

 

[CMUandPitt]

You'd be surprised how much interest there is in T&F. That's not surprising thinking for people that have never been to big meets. The Millrose Games, Boston Games, Prefontaine Classic, USATF Championships are all broadcast live on NBC each year (not SN, there's a whole slew of other T&F broadcast live on SN like Penn Relays and Drake Relays). Major Indoor and outdoor conference championship meets are always broadcast. And it is way bigger in Europe.

For boys, T&F also has the highest participation rate if any sport outside of football. XC is sixth behind soccer. For girls, T&F is #1 and XC is sixth. What T&F, at least collegiately, has done very poorly is promote itself and has failed to craft meets in a way that generate interest among casual college sports fans (poor team scoring format, poor order of events, poor pacing of events, death of dual meets, etc).

XC, you can't really broadcast that because of the nature of the courses. But you also can't have a real T&F program without XC. It is also a very cheap sport.

Thanks Pac, and obviously I agree. When I was there - and this was 2005 - Pitt used to have some practices down at Gesling, as did Duquesne.

Isn't there a track in Schenley though? I don't know the rules for how that works, but it seems crazy that they wouldn't take advantage of that if they could.

 

[CrazyPaco]

Thanks Pac, and obviously I agree. When I was there - and this was 2005 - Pitt used to have some practices down at Gesling, as did Duquesne.

Isn't there a track in Schenley though? I don't know the rules for how that works, but it seems crazy that they wouldn't take advantage of that if they could.

Yes, there is a track in Schenley up by the ice skating rink. I don't know what type of shape it is in or what type of facilities it has attached to it. The city owns it, and I don't know how control of its schedule works either. Gesling is obviously easier for the team to get to and probably in better shape to use.

I remember some vague talk about Pitt trying to work with the city to upgrade the track and Schenley for use as its home track, but couldn't pull it off something agreeable. Everything in Schenley has to be available for public use and Pitt would obviously need priority use.

 

[pittchagg]

The track at Schenley is fine. It's on par with a decent track that you'd see at a larger WPIAL high school. It's in okay shape, but it obviously gets a huge amount of use. There aren't any real support facilities to speak of, the bathrooms are rarely open, there aren't any concessions, and there isn't any fencing so it's wide-open.

But it's absolutely, 100% not a track facility for an ACC team, or really any college team - Gesling Stadium at CMU is superior in pretty much every area, and even that would be the worst track facility in the ACC. It would need to undergo extensive upgrades, and would basically need to be reconstructed to actually become a college track facility. And, considering the maintenance backlog in the city parks, I don't think the city would be too eager to pony up a few million dollars to build a college-level track for Pitt when the current setup works just fine for the average city resident who jogs a mile or two on the track a few times a week.

So Pitt might as well save the money that it'd need to spend anyway at Schenley and build their own track where the dome is now.

 

[Chanceman]

I was at the Schenley track yesterday. There were three port-a-johns and an open bathroom but it is not suitable for Pitt.

 

[mike412]

Very happy at the progress the soccer and v-ball teams have made, but XC is still pretty embarrassing.

Men 11th at conference, Women 14th.

For context - and I know these things are very apples-to-oranges based on course and weather - but CMU's average at their conference meet at Schenley was fifteen seconds faster, and would have easily beat Pitt in a dual.

I'm sure it's simply a matter of resources; does anyone know if there's any plans to give those teams full complements of scholarships?

The fallacy with your analysis is that times depend on courses. A hilly course will cause times to be higher. As another poster pointed out, when they both ran on the same course, Pitt had better results than CMU.

I agree we should try to become competitive in all sports. But I would prefer Lyke focus on getting us competitive in other sports before she devotes a minute to XC.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

In all due respect, who cares. Its not even a spectator sport.

No one busts their asses like those runners. I respect the heck out of them. They deserve a ton of credit. If someone wants to throw scholarships at them, so be it. They deserve it.

My daughter is an athlete at a southern school with top notch athletic facilities. They host track and XC events there. She said that watching the XC event was one of the hardest things to watch ever...as runners were vomiting and $hitting themselves. She’s not one to exaggerate...so I’m guessing it’s not much of a spectator sport.

 

[CMUandPitt]

No one busts their asses like those runners. I respect the heck out of them. They deserve a ton of credit. If someone wants to throw scholarships at them, so be it. They deserve it.

My daughter is an athlete at a southern school with top notch athletic facilities. They host track and XC events there. She said that watching the XC event was one of the hardest things to watch ever...as runners were vomiting and $hitting themselves. She’s not one to exaggerate...so I’m guessing it’s not much of a spectator sport.

You should see the track at the end of a steeplechase. 15 runners, 15 pools of vomit. Guaranteed.

I was a 4/8 guy and I thought I had it bad until I saw that. It was like a war zone.