Bucs Worth 900M

[9nationalchampionships]

I have followed to Bucs for my whole life and all I am trying to say in this post is that they are so close to really being good and have the money to spend.

3 players could do it….

#2 starter - lefty
IB
RF

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

Originally posted by Pittbaseball11:
The payroll truthers are dead wrong on this topic, and have been for years.



This post was edited on 3/26 2:06 PM by Pittbaseball11

No. They haven't been wrong for years. They are wrong now. Some of the stunts they did in prior years were absolutely ridiculous and almost worthy of a Major League sequel they were so bad and cheap. The Pirates were largely the worst owned franchise in sports for about 15 of the last 20+ years.

I will give Bob Nutting credit. He has done mostly good by the baseball team. How many teams have been to the post season the past two years? How many franchises have been to the postseason the past 2 years and still have one of the top 5-6 farm systems in baseball? That's pretty select company.

But back then, the ridiculous drafts, the giving away Schmidt and Ramirex, the lack of development in Latin America, the drafting of Bryan Bullington #1 overall, etc.....those aren't mirages.

They've been wrong that payroll is the issue or that payroll was what needed to increase to turn things around.

The Pirates' management before Nutting/Huntington/Coonelly was incompetent, there's no doubt there, but I define that as different than payroll.

People associated losing because of incompetence with losing because of a lack of payroll, when really they just had no idea how to rebuild a team and probably put more money into the major league team than they should have. They should've tanked -- and tanked hard -- but instead would try to finish in like 10th-to-last place every year.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Originally posted by 9nationalchampionships:


I have followed to Bucs for my whole life and all I am trying to say in this post is that they are so close to really being good and have the money to spend.

3 players could do it….

#2 starter - lefty
IB
RF

But if you look at the list I posted, you'd see that the #1 LHP who was even somewhat realistic was Francisco Liriano --- if he doesn't fill the #2 starter role, no other lefty would have.

The best 1B available was Adam LaRoche.....who is nothing more than a platoon bat at this point.

The #1 OF who could handle PNC's OF is -- maybe -- Melky Cabrera? If not him, you're looking at Nick Markakis. If Polanco comes even close his potential this year, are those guys even upgrades?

Believe me, I follow free agency, the minors, whatever pretty closely and these things people want just aren't out there.


This post was edited on 3/26 7:19 PM by Pittbaseball11

 

[paulbl99]

I would expect the Pirate payroll to be 27th or 28th lowest in baseball by then with win totals in the low 80s-- although perhaps some of the young arms will flourish right away....before of course they make it too hard for the by then 50 very large profit to be encumbered.

But don't forget about Fireworks and BOBBLEHEAD s...yinzers just can't get enough and keeps the cash flowing

 

[brdst11]

I don't get the RF thing. Last year, people were clamoring for Polanco. He came up, struggled a bit (not unexpected for a young player) and now people want to replace him with some mediocre free agent or retread, just because that guy would cost more?

And, oh ya, when the Bucs offered him a long term contract worth $50 million or more which he turned down, the Bucs were called cheap for not offering him more. Now the guy who was considered too good for a $50 million deal is not good enough to play RF? I'm trying to come up with some logic here, other than people complain about everything.

The best solution for the Bucs in RF is to allow Polanco to play every day. Their best option at 1B is Alvarez and they signed the best lefty starter not named Jon Lester.

The Bucs are in the best shape they've been in years. Enjoy it.

 

[brdst11]

The "fireworks and bobbleheads" thing is a tired meme. Bucs attendance in the past few years has gone up, as have ticket prices. Why? Because the team is good, not because they have more bobbleheads and fireworks.

 

[paulbl99]

Originally posted by brdst11:

I don't get the RF thing. Last year, people were clamoring for Polanco. He came up, struggled a bit (not unexpected for a young player) and now people want to replace him with some mediocre free agent or retread, just because that guy would cost more?

And, oh ya, when the Bucs offered him a long term contract worth $50 million or more which he turned down, the Bucs were called cheap for not offering him more. Now the guy who was considered too good for a $50 million deal is not good enough to play RF? I'm trying to come up with some logic here, other than people complain about everything.

The best solution for the Bucs in RF is to allow Polanco to play every day. Their best option at 1B is Alvarez and they signed the best lefty starter not named Jon Lester.

The Bucs are in the best shape they've been in years. Enjoy it.

You are right about Polanco because they boxed themselves in with no other options and now it is put him out there and pray.
You are right about Pedro because they are left with no options but to put him out there and pray...then pray some more

As for the best shape in years...not according to some who I would put more confidence in than you when it comes to that prediction.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Originally posted by paulbl99:

As for the best shape in years...not according to some who I would put more confidence in than you when it comes to that prediction.

Who?

ESPN has them 5th in their future power rankings and Baseball Prospectus puts them at 4th.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

If the Pirates....

are stuck with putting Polanco out there and letting him play what does that say about every other team in the major leagues that is planning on starting a young guy at any position on the field, seeing as to how Polanco is one of the top prospects in all of baseball? If the Pirates were dumb enough to give up on Polanco because he struggled for a couple months when he first came to the majors there are 29 other teams in baseball that would be happy to take him off the Pirates hands. And every single one of them would find a role for Polanco at the major league level, every single one of them. If you think that the Pirates are reduced to praying because they are planning on starting one of the best prospect in baseball in right field then you've completely gone off the deep end. Your complete lack of logic makes my brain hurt.

In any event, you have been provided with a link of the possible free agents that the Pirates could have signed. So instead of just bitching and moaning give us the list of the guys who were available that the Pirates should have signed. It should be easy for you. So let's hear it. I have a feeling that I know why you haven't named any names yet, but show us all that we are wrong and tell us who the Pirate should have spent all that money on this off season.

 

[SteelManiac55]

The troll is strong with this one.

Dude's life must be totally insufferable. I couldn't even imagine...

 

[paulbl99]

Re: If the Pirates....

When did I say give up on Polanco....Pretty effed up to just make up something.
But you fit the mold of these other arrogant know it alls so no surprise.

Everybody on the list of free agents is always too old or this stat is not right and so forth...
But yet they get signed...by baseball people who know a hell of a lot more about baseball than the self proclaimed experts on this board.

And I will support the Pirates as always...why does thinking that more financial resources could be put into this team have to flip you people out...it is hilarious.

This post was edited on 3/26 9:02 PM by paulbl99

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I mean, if anybody has watched former GMs and players, the myth that playing and being inside the game gives special knowledge just isn't true. How often did we have to hear Dusty Baker throw out outright fallacies in interviews? There's a reason guys who write for Fangraphs and (especially) Baseball Prospectus are constantly being hired into Major League front offices, and it's because the game is changing and the stats and economics matter more than they ever have.

And, in fairness to many of these "nerd" sites and know-it-all, a large amount of these contracts were derided at the time and nearly all of them will be proven correct.

I've yet to see a team not live to regret a mega-deal given to a free agent in the post-steroid era. The team who probably did best with it was Detroit with Prince Fielder, and that's only because they dumped him before he inevitably broke down.

 

[paulbl99]

So salaries will scale back or the rate of growth will see a noticeable slow down?
People paying out the big money will be replaced and the numbers guys will make this happen?

Free agents will someday find it hard to get the type of money being paid now?.
Player Agents will give away years from young guys so teams Can lock them up beyond arbitration??

Pirates should be in great position..

Ok


I'll watch for that to happen...maybe next year?
Any time frame??

 

[Pittbaseball11]

They're anticipating a slowdown of growths, with most megadeals coming in the form of Stanton and Trout deals. Lock up a homegrown guy for years when he's still young, as you'll recoup most or all of the value due to having the player through his prime.

Free agency will be further diminished. Obviously there's a sucker born every minute, but the bidding for many of these players even now has really cooled down.

I've always maintained that as long as the Pirates are offering arbitration to their best pitchers and older position players and extending their best homegrown hitting talent who won't be controlled through their prime, then payroll isn't an issue. This is the way teams are beginning to operate, which is why that list I posted of the Top 55 Free Agents is extremely diluted.

This post was edited on 3/26 9:53 PM by Pittbaseball11

 

[UPitt129]

Originally posted by 9nationalchampionships:


I have followed to Bucs for my whole life and all I am trying to say in this post is that they are so close to really being good and have the money to spend.

3 players could do it….

#2 starter - lefty
IB
RF

And that is probably 35 million additional in payroll, right now, for what MAY be upgrades, especially when looking at the RF and 1B situation. James Loney ring a bell? I would have taken Travis Ishikawa all year at 1 million over 3 years and 9 million a year of Loney.

What you also are not taking into account is that if you sign the type of impact guys you want, you are singing them for 3-4 years at least. So you not only add 35 million in payroll this year but the next 3-4 years. Then guess what? When it comes time to try to sign Cole, Alvarez, Walker, Harrison, or even McCutchen, the team no longer has the available payroll to do that.

And btw, the Pirates may have actually signed the best lefty starter on the market this year, other than Lester of course.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

This is the....

perfect response. "I have no idea what so ever who it would have been worth it to sign, but damn it, they should have signed someone. Anyone. Whether they were any good or not. Just because."

So "baseball people" decided these guys were good signs and they obviously must be right because they are "baseball people", but the "baseball people" who work for the Pirates decided that they either weren't worth the price or didn't fit with where the Pirates are and those "baseball people" obviously must be wrong. Got it. Makes absolutely no sense, but got it.

The issue isn't whether or not the Pirates COULD be spending more on the team. The issue is whether or not there was anyone who could help the Pirates had they decided to spend the money on them and that the Pirates could have signed. The reason that you refuse to look at the free agent list and offer suggestions shows one of two things. Either you looked at the list and realize that there really isn't anyone there who would make any sort of real difference for the Pirates. Or you didn't bother to look at the list because you have no idea if anyone who is on it would make any real difference or not, so why bother.

It's the easiest thing in the world to say that they should have done something, anything. But if you want people to take you seriously and give your argument more than laughing consideration then you need to specify what the things are that you think they should have been done. It doesn't take any knowledge or understanding to yell for the Pirates to do something while not having any idea what it is that you actually want them to do. If all it takes is to increase payroll the Pirates could call the Phillies tomorrow and offer a bag of batting practice ball for Ryan Howard. The Phillies would agree (because even they aren't that dumb). The payroll would skyrocket. The Pirates chances of winning (assuming they were dumb enough to follow up the trade with actually playing Howard) would drop. Probably rather significantly. But that would be something to "fix" the first base problem and it would involve spending a lot of money, so I guess that would meet with your approval.

What is actually hilarious is people who have no idea what they are talking about, and who actually admit that they have no idea what should have been done, but will argue all day long that dammit, they should have done something. Gotta keep up the appearances, I guess.

 

[UPitt129]

Re: If the Pirates....

Originally posted by paulbl99:
When did I say give up on Polanco....Pretty effed up to just make up something.
But you fit the mold of these other arrogant know it alls so no surprise.

Everybody on the list of free agents is always too old or this stat is not right and so forth...
But yet they get signed...by baseball people who know a hell of a lot more about baseball than the self proclaimed experts on this board.

And I will support the Pirates as always...why does thinking that more financial resources could be put into this team have to flip you people out...it is hilarious.

This post was edited on 3/26 9:02 PM by paulbl99

If you don't want to give up on Polanco, why would you want to sign an FA to replace him?

 

[UPitt129]

Re: This is the....

Originally posted by Joe the Panther Fan:
perfect response. "I have no idea what so ever who it would have been worth it to sign, but damn it, they should have signed someone. Anyone. Whether they were any good or not. Just because."

So "baseball people" decided these guys were good signs and they obviously must be right because they are "baseball people", but the "baseball people" who work for the Pirates decided that they either weren't worth the price or didn't fit with where the Pirates are and those "baseball people" obviously must be wrong. Got it. Makes absolutely no sense, but got it.

The issue isn't whether or not the Pirates COULD be spending more on the team. The issue is whether or not there was anyone who could help the Pirates had they decided to spend the money on them and that the Pirates could have signed. The reason that you refuse to look at the free agent list and offer suggestions shows one of two things. Either you looked at the list and realize that there really isn't anyone there who would make any sort of real difference for the Pirates. Or you didn't bother to look at the list because you have no idea if anyone who is on it would make any real difference or not, so why bother.

It's the easiest thing in the world to say that they should have done something, anything. But if you want people to take you seriously and give your argument more than laughing consideration then you need to specify what the things are that you think they should have been done. It doesn't take any knowledge or understanding to yell for the Pirates to do something while not having any idea what it is that you actually want them to do. If all it takes is to increase payroll the Pirates could call the Phillies tomorrow and offer a bag of batting practice ball for Ryan Howard. The Phillies would agree (because even they aren't that dumb). The payroll would skyrocket. The Pirates chances of winning (assuming they were dumb enough to follow up the trade with actually playing Howard) would drop. Probably rather significantly. But that would be something to "fix" the first base problem and it would involve spending a lot of money, so I guess that would meet with your approval.

What is actually hilarious is people who have no idea what they are talking about, and who actually admit that they have no idea what should have been done, but will argue all day long that dammit, they should have done something. Gotta keep up the appearances, I guess.

A lot of these folks had gone in a long time ago that the Pirates would never win with Nutting as owner, that the team would always dump it's best players, and that Huntington was an idiot that now they are in full melt down mode to try and save some sort of face.

The simple fact seems to be that many so called fans of the Pirates think that the magic answer is increase payroll. No matter what payroll is, if you simply add 30 million to it, you will win. If the Pirates spent 110 million and lost in the NLDS, people would say it needed to be at 140 million. Those people will never be satisfied.

The Pirates have done just about everything right in the last 5 years, and it has culminated in them being set up as a franchise, that should, hopefully, be abled to compete for the foreseeable future. Some people are just too stupid to see that.