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Consider the facts on PC

Apr 26, 2012
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Another thread about Narduzzi turned into a bashing of Chryst again. I'm glad Narduzzi is our new HC. I'm glad PC moved on, but just like the Pitt players, I don't fault him for taking the Wisky job. Zeise says he planned to stay at Pitt along time and would have only taken the Wisky job.


But I highly value what he did while he was here. The cupboard WAS mostly bare when he got here, and what was here included a lot of bad apples.This is sometimes disputed, so consider what Zeise stated in his blog interview two weeks ago, as reported by PittBlather:


When he was fired: "Wannstedt personally called every recruit and told them not to go to PITT, and literally told them to de-commit. He followed that by asking his remaining staff to call the players they recruited again and tell them the same thing."

Following that recruiting class disaster, we had the really bad class the next year when Graham left.


Zeise again from the Blather: Paul Chryst inherited two lame recruiting classes and a roster full of DW recruits who were now disillusioned and angry about the changes the coaching staffs went through with DW's firing and Graham's quitting. Faced with that, and the need to straighten things out by overhauling the program, Chryst 'ran off' 34 "bad apples and malcontents", mostly upper classmen, over his first two years as HC.

Zeise noted that Chryst's purge actually left PITT with less scholarship players on the roster than PSU had at the same time while they were in the midst of NCAA sanctioned recruiting limits. That is why a year later, in 2013, we had the youngest roster in D1 football.


So you are disappointed in 6-6 seasons under PC? Yeah, me too, but given the circumstances, it would've been ridiculous to expect anything more.

Zeise then goes on to explain that PC was a good recruiter, with personal knowledge due to his own son's recruitment. PC built and left Narduzzi a young, talented offense. Not nearly as much talent on D, but perhaps more than we suspect, since the defensive coaching staff was so inexperienced and weak, its hard to know what kind of raw talent they have.

In any event, so many are 'tired of they young team excuse', but while you might not like any excuse for not being successful, the overall and rebuilding of the team needed to happen, and most of it is now behind us, thanks to PC. He did what was needed and moved on, and we are better for his having been here. I also think we are better for his having now left, but for god's sake, let give him his due.


This post was edited on 2/20 4:11 PM by raleighpanther
 
I think we all had reason to expect better than 3 straight yeses of 6-6.

But I also think PC put out the dumpster fire and left a relatively solid foundation for the next guy.

The offense is ready to take a big step I think. The D is getting a complete overhaul that will improve it immediately. Still in need of some personnel, but schematically and results-wise it will be a lot better.
 
There wasnt a whole lot of talent on the 2011, 2012, and 2013 teams. The only two guys that played on all three of those teams that were drafted were Street and Donald. Savage palyed in 2013 and was drafted. Clemmings, Connor and Boyd contributed in 2013 and 2014 and will get drafted. Thats it.

Compare that to 2008-2010 teams when a total of 10 guys were drafted.
 
1. Pitt basically self sanctioned itself.
2. PC stopped the bleeding.
3. But PC was not a game changing hire.
4. PC tried to publicly handle his exit with class.
 
Chryst will have a hand in Pitt's success the next 2 years. While his staff recruited and coached poorly on the defensive side, minus wide receivers and back-up quarterback, the team was left well stocked with starters and quality depth on the offensive side of the ball. The talent, depth and experience on the offensive line, running back, tight end and a quality starting quarterback may offset transition pains resulting from a new offensive system.

Speaking of new systems, a recent hire on TribLive radio apparently went to grad at Arkansas and recently had a former colleague who's the football beat writer from Arkansas on about 3 weeks ago. The beat writer spoke very highly of Chaney, but added Chaney's system is not a simple one or is picked up very easily and that he wouldn't be surprised if Pitt experienced more inconsistency than expected. He also stated that by November or so, the inconsistency eventually be replaced with a very balanced offense that will be 55-45 (pass) or even 50-50 over the course of the season
 
And some completely insane people want Wanny as AD....

How ridiculous......
 
So weird that the Wannstedt story of calling recruits just came out recently and not back in 2010. Not sure I believe it, but if it happened, I still think it was a mistake firing him after what transpired the following four seasons.

I just hope Narduzzi is the real deal. I've had enough of 6-7 records.
 
His childish antics in all forms of media.....

Make it very easy to believe....looks at all the public bashing coming from him...

Everyone is tired of 6-7 wins...that doesn't change the circumstances which make it painfully obvious as to why they kept happening...

The OP paints the picture quite clearly...to the point where Id have to ask anyone who expected more to lay out some data as to why?
 
I get what you are saying, but no way he should have lost to Youngstown State (in year 1) and Akron (in year 3). Neither of those teams were good - Akron actually had a losing record.

You can forgive a lot of things considering what PC inherited, but those two losses, and by double digits each, are unforgivable.
 
Left, I heard that story right after Graham was hired, except it was Cignetti who was calling recruits, after it was obvious he was not getting the job. Wanny could have had the assistants do it, but it was clear that they were sabotaging the class.

You have heard people over the years respond unfavorably when Cignetti's name is brought up about returning to Pitt at some point. Likely will never happen, because of this reason, if true. It wasn't that he told recruits to go to another school, but to stay away from Pitt before he even had another opportunity.
 
Zap, From my vantage point on both games..

YSU, PITT's sideline was really bad... The locker room and game suspension carried over.
Akron, their sideline was fired up, PITT over looked them.. On the Coaches !
 
Originally posted by pittzap:
Left, I heard that story right after Graham was hired, except it was Cignetti who was calling recruits, after it was obvious he was not getting the job. Wanny could have had the assistants do it, but it was clear that they were sabotaging the class.

You have heard people over the years respond unfavorably when Cignetti's name is brought up about returning to Pitt at some point. Likely will never happen, because of this reason, if true. It wasn't that he told recruits to go to another school, but to stay away from Pitt before he even had another opportunity.
Wannstedt also publicly stated in 2011 - before Graham left - that he was texting and keeping in touch with the team.
Think it's any surprise so many of them wouldn't buy into Graham's system?


Regarding Youngstown State and Akron, one can still defend the YSU loss, given the circumstances. Akron is the one that is completely indefensible, no matter how one tries to spin it.



This post was edited on 2/20 5:21 PM by OriginalEther
 
i agree with you almost 100% raleigh except for one thing:

it wasn't ridiculous to expect more than 3 straight 6-6 regular season records, because in each season, and particularly in 2014, there were multiple games pitt simply should not have lost based on what transpired in the game until an epic and truly inexcusable mistake or (again, truly inexcusable) prolonged meltdown ended up losing it.

it isn't that pitt wasn't good enough to win more than 6 games. all those close losses... truly a remarkable amount the last 3 years. it would have been hard even for a pitt fan to say beforehand that pitt was going to lose so many tight contests in so many different mind-numbing ways. it's that pitt knows how to lose better than it knows how to win.

PC really didn't make any progress in getting pitt to forget how to lose and remember how to win. even a little progress there would have turned some of these 35-34s to Houston and 24-21s to Navy and 40-35s to UNC etc. into victories.
 
Three years, 500 record. That's the bottom line. Everything else is noise.

Cruzer
 
cruzer said it, he turned a 6 and 6 program into a 6 and 6 program.. Any compliments are nothing but meaningless clichés... For every position he build depth (O-line) he left two more ridiculously thin (D end, CBs).. He is the perfect definition of average, from his record to his personality.. He's to average to hate, I really just feel "nothing" towards him.. At least Graham had a personality that evoked strong emotions (mostly hatred of course), This clown is too boring to even hate..
This post was edited on 2/20 7:39 PM by Pghfan
 
Blues, I agree, some of those losses were really bad and shouldn't have happened. We should've won 7 games a year not 6, and we could've won 8. But I wasn't defending him as a game coach, not at all. Others here are also saying 6 wins was only 6 wins, and they are right if you are evaluating his ability to produce wins.

My point was to acknowledge what he did to help a program that had been all but destroyed by many actions, and build it for the future. As I said, I'm glad he is gone, because I too was losing confidence in his ability to actually produce wins, although as others noted, he was handicapped by a very low budget for hiring assistant coaches, and that was not on him, it was on the administration.
 
The program was hemorrhaging and he put a stop to that. Whatever his other shortcomings, that was an achievement in itself, perhaps program saving in nature. That being said, I think that Coach Narduzzi gives us a better chance to get the program to where we want it to be than Coach Chryst did.
 
"probably program saving." Does this mean that there would have been no Pitt football without Coach Chryst?
When do we start casting the statue?

Just one of many mediocre coaches strewn throughout Pitt's long football history.
 
Well then at what point do we begin the introspection process and consider that perhaps our issues run deeper then whoever is leading it at any given time because it is a poorly supported, mediocre program?

Nope, find a workable solutions is hard. Finding convenient scapegoats is significantly easier so we will stick with that approach.
 
Recruited well overall on offense, particularly offensive line, and you have to give him credit for seeing the potential in Conner. Recruited poorly on defense. Sub-par game day coach. Nice guy. We're far better off with the new staff.

You know, everyone mentions YSU and Akron, but the game that sticks out for me, in terms of PC's game day coaching, was the Syracuse game in '13. He was bailed out at the last split second by a timeout called by someone on the sideline who saw Syracuse about to pull off a game winning fake field goal play. Chryst was clueless on the sideline. For me, that summed up his head coaching ineptitude.
 
I still strongly believe that for the past 30 years, we've been just one good hire away from having a strong program. That's it. One good hire. No excuses about the endemic failures amd lack of commitment of the university toward football, no more "we don't have the talent" etc. One really good HC that knew how to build a program wouldve erased all that crap. Good coaches get the job done. it takes some foresight and a little roll of the dice to find the next Treessel, Meyer, Chip or Brian Kelly from the lower ranks, but it isn't rocket science-you look for a sustained track record of success and championships and you have your guy.

I can only think of one hire since Sherrill that I felt could get it done in that entire time frame-and he happens to be the most hated coach in Pitt history, Graham. He knew what he was doing, he was a proven highly successful HC at a lower level, and if he had stuck around, we'd be having a completely different conversation right now.

But he didn't, and here we are. I think very highly of Narduzzi as I have close ties to MSU and have always rooted for the Spartans. But head coach is a different animal. At least with Duzzi I'm somewhat excited amd optimistic, as opposed to how I felt when PC was hired, which was pretty much a "whatever" moment for me.
 
Bingo-and or wasn't like we had a difficult schedule in each of those years-quite the opposite.

With those schedules 8-9 wins were there for the taking. But when you lose to Akron, fumble 6 times in the 1st quarter agImst GT, fail to make offers e amd defemwove adjustments against Iowa, etc, you get what we got out of Chryst all three years.
 
The number of wins is beside the point. Yes, 6-6 sucks. And he is gone. Good. No one, and I mean no one, is wishing he'd stayed. He was not a great game day motivator, and not a good game day coach. He really did us a favor by taking the Wisky job now.

He should've won a few more games than he did, but realistically, the ceiling on wins was not that high. The point of this post was to counter the simple minded view heard over and over here, which is that he sucked because he didn't win more and the fact that the program was a train wreck when he took over is totally dismissed as a meaningless excuse. What Chryst did well was to stabilize the program and set the table for a better coaching staff. Now the ceiling on wins will go higher.

Badby, your statement that a good coach is all that was needed for success, and that admin support was not a factor, is directly countered by the fact that your savior coach Graham left precisely because he didn't have admin support. You need admin support to get and retain a good coach. Only now do we have it. Narduzzi has a good staff because the admin has given him the money to hire one. Graham didn't have that, and neither did Chryst.
 
I won't bash or celebrate HCPC. The truth is it remains to be seen what he left for HCPN on both sides of the ball.

On offense we know we have;
A good O-Line.2 good TE's1 excellent RB, a good blocking FB and some 3 or 4 talented younger backs.1 excellent WR. Every other WR is a TOTAL question mark and have yet to produce even behind poor starting WR's.1 Game manager QB and 3 unknowns at this point.
On defense we have;

One DE (Blair) that can get to the QB at least 5 times per season. Render is a decent player, hard worker. The rest?Grigsby, Bam, are athletic. Wirginis, Davis, Folston, Green are hopefuls and the rest are freshman or not that good.Mitchell, Webb, Amara solid safties.Does L Pitts show up? Titus? Lil Avonte? Hope so, they're going to be on an island. Hard living w/ out a pass rush.
My point is, the "play makers" have yet to stand up and mature at Pitt. Everyone touted HCPC's guys as needing a few seasons, but being honest, many need a lower division of competition. HCPN has his work cut out because the cupboards aren't as full as we like to think they are and when Holtz, Conner and Boyd bounce it's going to seem a lot more empty.

Pitt has bodies on campus. What those kids do between now and September will determine our success. There are too many guys that haven't stepped up. It seems they crossed a finish line when they got a D-1 scholarship. If we're going to be good the promise of those kids needs to become a reality. It's their team now.
 
Raleigh-what kind of a budget did Kelly work with at CMU or Cinci? Did Urban Meyer have a huge assistant coach payroll at BGSU or Utah? How about Tressel before he got to OSU?

The best HCs don't need a superstar staff-because they run the whole show. You either have it or you don't.

If Graham had stayed,regardless of the lack of support from on high, he would've succeeded here. You could give Chryst a blank check and 10 years, it wouldn't have been much better.
 
Originally posted by raleighpanther:

Another thread about Narduzzi turned into a bashing of Chryst again. I'm glad Narduzzi is our new HC. I'm glad PC moved on, but just like the Pitt players, I don't fault him for taking the Wisky job. Zeise says he planned to stay at Pitt along time and would have only taken the Wisky job.


But I highly value what he did while he was here. The cupboard WAS mostly bare when he got here, and what was here included a lot of bad apples.This is sometimes disputed, so consider what Zeise stated in his blog interview two weeks ago, as reported by PittBlather:


When he was fired: "Wannstedt personally called every recruit and told them not to go to PITT, and literally told them to de-commit. He followed that by asking his remaining staff to call the players they recruited again and tell them the same thing."

Following that recruiting class disaster, we had the really bad class the next year when Graham left.


Zeise again from the Blather: Paul Chryst inherited two lame recruiting classes and a roster full of DW recruits who were now disillusioned and angry about the changes the coaching staffs went through with DW's firing and Graham's quitting. Faced with that, and the need to straighten things out by overhauling the program, Chryst 'ran off' 34 "bad apples and malcontents", mostly upper classmen, over his first two years as HC.

Zeise noted that Chryst's purge actually left PITT with less scholarship players on the roster than PSU had at the same time while they were in the midst of NCAA sanctioned recruiting limits. That is why a year later, in 2013, we had the youngest roster in D1 football.


So you are disappointed in 6-6 seasons under PC? Yeah, me too, but given the circumstances, it would've been ridiculous to expect anything more.

Zeise then goes on to explain that PC was a good recruiter, with personal knowledge due to his own son's recruitment. PC built and left Narduzzi a young, talented offense. Not nearly as much talent on D, but perhaps more than we suspect, since the defensive coaching staff was so inexperienced and weak, its hard to know what kind of raw talent they have.

In any event, so many are 'tired of they young team excuse', but while you might not like any excuse for not being successful, the overall and rebuilding of the team needed to happen, and most of it is now behind us, thanks to PC. He did what was needed and moved on, and we are better for his having been here. I also think we are better for his having now left, but for god's sake, let give him his due.


This post was edited on 2/20 4:11 PM by raleighpanther
All of this is meaningless.....your glorifying mediocrity! That mindset will get PITT nowhere...
 
Originally posted by thebadby2:
I still strongly believe that for the past 30 years, we've been just one good hire away from having a strong program. That's it. One good hire. No excuses about the endemic failures amd lack of commitment of the university toward football, no more "we don't have the talent" etc. One really good HC that knew how to build a program wouldve erased all that crap. Good coaches get the job done. it takes some foresight and a little roll of the dice to find the next Treessel, Meyer, Chip or Brian Kelly from the lower ranks, but it isn't rocket science-you look for a sustained track record of success and championships and you have your guy.

I can only think of one hire since Sherrill that I felt could get it done in that entire time frame-and he happens to be the most hated coach in Pitt history, Graham. He knew what he was doing, he was a proven highly successful HC at a lower level, and if he had stuck around, we'd be having a completely different conversation right now.

But he didn't, and here we are. I think very highly of Narduzzi as I have close ties to MSU and have always rooted for the Spartans. But head coach is a different animal. At least with Duzzi I'm somewhat excited amd optimistic, as opposed to how I felt when PC was hired, which was pretty much a "whatever" moment for me.
The problem with the coach-as-lottery-ticket theory is that even in the rare instance when you do happen across one, they are usually gone as quickly as they came and you end up right back at square one...unless you get lucky and lightning strikes twice. Pitt needs to build this program from the ground up, not the other way around.
 
Badby, regarding your comment, "The best HCs don't need a superstar staff-because they run the whole show. You either have it or you don't",[/I] I have to ask:
Were you happy like the rest of us when Narduzzi hired Chaney, a very experienced OC from an SEC team, to run the offense? Or hired Conklin, a highly sought after and highly regarded defensive mind as DC, and then a whole team of assistants who are aggressive recruiters and thought to be good coaches?

Or would you have been just as happy if House were rehired as DC, with a bunch of high school coaches to back him up? Based on your view, House and company would be just fine, since all that matters is the head coach.
 
How do you achieve that successful rebuild without ending up with a guy that everyone else starts to want, because of the rebuild job he did? You can't. And hiring a guy based on the expectation that he's going to stay at Pitt for 10-20 years is completely unrealistic. We just aren't that kind of program.

IMO the key is to get a few good years out of the guy and then hire from within--those kinds of head coaches typically have longtime, loyal coordinators that followed them up through the ranks. Keeps continuity. Is it a bit of a crapshoot that the next guy can maintain what his prior boss built? To some extent, yes, but it's still better than losing one coach/staff and replacing them with someone who has a whole new set of playbooks and philosophies.
 
I'll be very honest here--I have my concerns about Narduzzi's staff--for one main reason--they have never worked together before. Chaney is well thought of--but name the last good team he has OCd--it was Purdue, over 10 years ago, running a spread offense for Joe Tiller. The fact that we got him from a SEC job that he was fired from is of no consequence IMO. Who cares what conference the guys coached in--the question is can he coach? Conklin is more or less a straw man who is here to run Narduzzi's defense--not his own--and as for his "bright young defensive mind", did you see that article I posted a couple of weeks ago, that describes how Conklin called Narduzzi and asked him for his playbook a couple of years ago when the FIU defense was a dumpster fire? He's a protege of Narduzzi, but make absolutely no mistake about it, this will be Narduzzi's defense and he will have his hands all over it--that;s why he's here. The entire coaching staff is getting to know each other, they all come from very different backgrounds, the only guys that have worked together before are Harley and Conklin, and Harley is just 2 years out from being a grad ass.

As for the recruiting prowess of these coaches, that's an unknown as well. As far as i can tell, none of these coaches have a track record of bringing in top talent. Narduzzi has a track record of finding underrated talent and developing it into star talent, but he doesn't have a laundry list of 4 and 5 star players to his recruiting resume. I don't believe anyone on the staff has that type of resume. Time will tell, and there is reason for optimism because it does seem that Narduzzi is going to really emphasize amping up the recruiting around here. Nonetheless, some posters need a reality check. This is an unproven HC with an unfamiliar staff. And Pitt is a tough sell to the better recruits out there.

The bottom line is, we don't really know what we have right now, except for the optimism that comes from yet another fresh start.
 
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