Dakich: Organized AAU

[thebadby2]

Well first of all, THEY obviously think it's made their jobs harder. The fact that you don't realize that says a lot about how much you are invested in doing right by the millionaires instead of the players.

But in any event, it means that coaches have to do a better job working with and keeping the guys on their roster happy if they want to have them back. It means they can't bullshit a recruit and tell him about all the playing time he's going to get when he goes there when the coach knows that's BS and he's going to get backup minutes his first couple years at best.

I mean seriously you aren't this stupid, so for you to even suggest that this might not make coaches jobs harder defies belief. You know damn well it makes their job harder. Why the need to pretend otherwise?

I don’t agree with you. Your argument is based on simplistic generalizations about the character of the coaches. The better coaches of the better programs in the game-the Izzos, Jay Wrights, Mark Fews, etc—don’t BS their recruits or players about PT or that type of nonsense. I don’t think there is any question that they work hard to coach and teach their players. Keeping 18 year old kids “happy” is not part of teaching or coaching them. The players are supposed to be there in the first place to learn and get better, and the coach’s job is to teach them and make them better, to help them be the best they can be, not to coddle them, which works against those principles.

If anything, the portal rewards the lazy snake oil selling coaches out there, they can assemble a team from thin air without having to put in the work of building a program and establishing their credibility as coaches. If anything, the portal incentivizes the types of false promises about PT etc you’re attributing to the recruiting of HS players. For example, I’m willing to bet a Dan Oladapo wouldn’t have chosen Pitt as his transfer destination if he hadn’t been led to believe he would be playing a lot. On the other hand, I doubt Capel promised a Will Jeffress anything other than that he was wanted at Pitt and would have an opportunity to become a big part of Capel’s rebuild.

As for the NIL, that will make the jobs of coaches of top tier programs easier and give them a huge advantage over coaches at lower profile programs. Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Villanova, Michigan State, Michigan, UNC, UCLA, etc have billionaire basketball boosters that will be more than happy to write some big NIL checks to secure the best players. Those programs are already rich and will now get richer. Those coaches—the ones who are speaking out about how unhappy they are with the new developments—will now have it easier, if anything. What happens to the Gonzagas and the smaller market, lesser profile programs? I suppose you could say their coaches’ jobs are now harder, but I think the more appropriate way to characterize it is that the playing field is tilted even further against them than it already was. It’s been less fair than it was.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Because you are putting restrictions on what they can and cannot do based merely on your desire to be entertained. Why is what you want more important than what they want, when they are the ones doing the work?

But what you aren't getting, "the desire to be entertained", yes. That is the reason why they are getting money and scholarships. If no one cared, there would not be anything there. Or it would be like the rest of the world where universities may field club teams, but not defacto pro sports. If these kids want to just be about themselves, play golf or tennis. In your eyes now, winning means nothing, just getting paid does. And in that case, then the sport is damaged and ruin and not worth watching. Your "workers of the world rise up and unite" routine is flawed.

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

I don’t agree with you. Your argument is based on simplistic generalizations about the character of the coaches. The better coaches of the better programs in the game-the Izzos, Jay Wrights, Mark Fews, etc—don’t BS their recruits or players about PT or that type of nonsense. I don’t think there is any question that they work hard to coach and teach their players. Keeping 18 year old kids “happy” is not part of teaching or coaching them. The players are supposed to be there in the first place to learn and get better, and the coach’s job is to teach them and make them better, to help them be the best they can be, not to coddle them, which works against those principles.

If anything, the portal rewards the lazy snake oil selling coaches out there, they can assemble a team from thin air without having to put in the work of building a program and establishing their credibility as coaches. If anything, the portal incentivizes the types of false promises about PT etc you’re attributing to the recruiting of HS players. For example, I’m willing to bet a Dan Oladapo wouldn’t have chosen Pitt as his transfer destination if he hadn’t been led to believe he would be playing a lot. On the other hand, I doubt Capel promised a Will Jeffress anything other than that he was wanted at Pitt and would have an opportunity to become a big part of Capel’s rebuild.

As for the NIL, that will make the jobs of coaches of top tier programs easier and give them a huge advantage over coaches at lower profile programs. Duke, Kansas, Arizona, Villanova, Michigan State, Michigan, UNC, UCLA, etc have billionaire basketball boosters that will be more than happy to write some big NIL checks to secure the best players. Those programs are already rich and will now get richer. Those coaches—the ones who are speaking out about how unhappy they are with the new developments—will now have it easier, if anything. What happens to the Gonzagas and the smaller market, lesser profile programs? I suppose you could say their coaches’ jobs are now harder, but I think the more appropriate way to characterize it is that the playing field is tilted even further against them than it already was. It’s been less fair than it was.

Of course that is correct.
No rule changes as dramatic as NIL or the the transfer portal are permitted to happen if the top level programs don’t think they can benefit more the lower level programs.
It isn’t to suggest the lower level programs can’t also see some benefit from it. But not more than the top levels, not by design anyway.

If it turns out that enough of the top level schools (and their coaches) complain, it’ll signal that more changes have occurred that weren’t to their benefit than was expected. They lost more quality depth than good players they were able to poach. Or more of the lower tier schools start to leverage NIL more than was anticipated. If so, you’ll see modifications to the rules that ‘correct’ those ‘errors’. None will be in the best interests of the athletes, just like these rules were not designed to be.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

But what you aren't getting, "the desire to be entertained", yes. That is the reason why they are getting money and scholarships. If no one cared, there would not be anything there. Or it would be like the rest of the world where universities may field club teams, but not defacto pro sports. If these kids want to just be about themselves, play golf or tennis. In your eyes now, winning means nothing, just getting paid does. And in that case, then the sport is damaged and ruin and not worth watching. Your "workers of the world rise up and unite" routine is flawed.

Well first of all, nothing that I have ever said or implied translates to "winning means nothing, just getting paid does". You just basically made that up out of whole cloth.

And secondly, so you admit that your desire to be entertained is more important than doing what is right. I congratulate you for at least having the balls to admit that your whole position is based on what makes you happy rather than on doing what is right.

I mean it's a completely contradictory position for someone who admits that they just changed jobs for more money to make, but at least you are willing to own up to your inconsistencies, unlike some of the other people here.

Look, I'm not saying, I have never said, that allowing kids to transfer has or will make the game (games) better. It might not. It probably won't. But that doesn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do. Allowing baseball players to become free agents didn't make the game (overall) better, but it absolutely is the right thing.

It's the players that are responsible for the millions that the schools bring in. It's not the coaches. Coaches come and go, the money hasn't left. It's not the schools. There are plenty of sports that make money hand over fist that have nothing to do with schools. It's the players. Without players there is no game. Without games there is no money. Tom Izzo makes millions because of the players, not the other way around.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Well first of all, nothing that I have ever said or implied translates to "winning means nothing, just getting paid does". You just basically made that up out of whole cloth.

And secondly, so you admit that your desire to be entertained is more important than doing what is right. I congratulate you for at least having the balls to admit that your whole position is based on what makes you happy rather than on doing what is right.

I mean it's a completely contradictory position for someone who admits that they just changed jobs for more money to make, but at least you are willing to own up to your inconsistencies, unlike some of the other people here.

Look, I'm not saying, I have never said, that allowing kids to transfer has or will make the game (games) better. It might not. It probably won't. But that doesn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do. Allowing baseball players to become free agents didn't make the game (overall) better, but it absolutely is the right thing.

It's the players that are responsible for the millions that the schools bring in. It's not the coaches. Coaches come and go, the money hasn't left. It's not the schools. There are plenty of sports that make money hand over fist that have nothing to do with schools. It's the players. Without players there is no game. Without games there is no money. Tom Izzo makes millions because of the players, not the other way around.

Your free agency argument isnt a good one because that was a court case won by the players so like it or not, there's nothing that could have been done and I agree with free agency by the way. I would also agree with basketball free agency if the players were paid as they should be and were given contracts. If a player is given a 2 year contract out of HS, then yea, they should be able to "transfer" for free after Year 2.

What I don't like is we are continuing to pretend these kids are student-athletes and we are giving them pro free agency privileges while its pretty damn bad for their academic career and socially to be transferring every year. And as I've said a million times, the paying customers dont like it and will stop paying to some extent over time. College basketball has substitutes....the NBA. MLB does not.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Your free agency argument isnt a good one because that was a court case won by the players so like it or not, there's nothing that could have been done and I agree with free agency by the way. I would also agree with basketball free agency if the players were paid as they should be and were given contracts. If a player is given a 2 year contract out of HS, then yea, they should be able to "transfer" for free after Year 2.

What I don't like is we are continuing to pretend these kids are student-athletes and we are giving them pro free agency privileges while its pretty damn bad for their academic career and socially to be transferring every year. And as I've said a million times, the paying customers dont like it and will stop paying to some extent over time. College basketball has substitutes....the NBA. MLB does not.

So they’re not student athletes but you’re concerned about their academic careers? Ok.

Their academic and social lives will be just fine. Kids come and go en masse from every school in the country and do just fine.

A total load of nonsense.

You aware how much job hopping there is in “the real world” these days?

They’ll be just fine if they transfer every year.

And lastly please stop pretending you care about anything other than the entertainment value the players provide you.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

So they’re not student athletes but you’re concerned about their academic careers? Ok.

Their academic and social lives will be just fine. Kids come and go en masse from every school in the country and do just fine.

A total load of nonsense.

You aware how much job hopping there is in “the real world” these days?

They’ll be just fine if they transfer every year.

And lastly please stop pretending you care about anything other than the entertainment value the players provide you.

I am a paying customer so of course my entertainment is my main concern. I think all would agree though that a college kid attending 3-4 schools isn't ideal for their education. Not that I care much about their education, but the NCAA pretends to care

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Your free agency argument isnt a good one because that was a court case won by the players so like it or not, there's nothing that could have been done and I agree with free agency by the way.

Not surprisingly for one of your arguments, that is simply factually incorrect. First of all, there isn't "true" free agency in any sport, certainly not any American professional sports, because not all players are afforded the right. They have to meet certain conditions before they are allowed to be free agents.

But why is that, you would ask if you had any real desire to understand? Because free agency is NOT granted by the courts, free agency is a collectively bargained system between the players' union and the team owners. Free agency in baseball is set up the way it is because that is what the players and the owners agreed to, not because that's what the court said they had to do. Free agency in football is different, because their players and owners agree to something different. Basketball, different. Hockey, different. Soccer, different (and much more restrictive). Not because some court said so. Because that's what the players and the owners agreed to.

 

[upj87]

What is BS is people who think that the entertainment value that they get out of something is more important that doing what is right.

You would NEVER go to work for an employer who made you sign a contract that told you that if you didn't like your job, too bad, you weren't allowed to quit and take a job somewhere else. Why do you think that college athletes should be held to a higher standard than you would ever hold yourself to?

And I've asked this before and no one has ever given an answer, so I'll ask again. If allowing basketball players and football players to transfer without having to sit out a year is going to destroy basketball and football, why hasn't it destroyed all the other sports that have had that exact rule for a long, long time? If one free transfer kills basketball, why hasn't it already killed wrestling and volleyball and soccer and baseball and all the rest? Are soccer coaches simply better equipped to handle this than basketball coaches? Is there something inherently different about people who coach wrestling rather than football that enables them to hold their teams together better?

Or is it just that all those other coaches have figured out what they need to do to keep their teams together and they get on with it, rather than complain that allowing the players the same freedom that they have is just too hard?

all well an beautiful but quite meaningless when the sport at the college level is destroyed at some point..

You would NEVER go to work for an employer who made you sign a contract that told you that if you didn't like your job, too bad, you weren't allowed to quit and take a job somewhere else....College students are not employees and oddly enough would OFTEN attend a university for free for the contractual arrangement you mention valued at 6 figures...

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

all well an beautiful but quite meaningless when the sport at the college level is destroyed....

And to be fair, this is only what, the tenth or eleventh thing in history that was going to destroy college sports?

And yet here we are.

 

[USN_Panther]

And to be fair, this is only what, the tenth or eleventh thing in history that was going to destroy college sports?

And yet here we are.

Maybe not destroyed, but changed greatly.
If the fans stop watching the money reduces.
I do think that trading and dropping 18-19 year olds would be interesting.
Think of how bad it would suck to get traded to WVU. "But WVU doesn't have my major. I'm studying accounting."
"It's alright. WVU has counting. They even have an alphabet department."

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

"It's alright. WVU has counting. They even have an alphabet department."

"If they take off their shoes many of them can even count to 20!"

 

[USN_Panther]

"If they take off their shoes many of them can even count to 20!"

Some can get to 22.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Some can get to 22.

If they include their teeth!

 

[upj87]

And to be fair, this is only what, the tenth or eleventh thing in history that was going to destroy college sports?

And yet here we are.

ok, hows about you give us some examples of anything comparable to unrestricted constant player movement?

kids have no loyalty to a school so why should a fan? not interested in watching mercenaries..

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

ok, hows about you give us some examples of anything comparable to unrestricted constant player movement?

Well the easy one is when Oklahoma and Georgia won their lawsuit against the NCAA that allowed the schools to control their own television rights and televise as many games as they wanted. The NCAA was absolutely sure that that would destroy the sport, because if people could watch games on television why would they ever go to the stadium? And if people stopped going to the stadiums how would the sport ever survive?

And in any event, we will have to see how it plays out, but the current transfer rule as written DOES NOT allow for unrestricted constant movement.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

ok, hows about you give us some examples of anything comparable to unrestricted constant player movement?

kids have no loyalty to a school so why should a fan? not interested in watching mercenaries..

You aren't interested in watching organized AAU ball with teams changing every year? You must be the only one.

 

[BTisinDC]

If they include their teeth!

Slow down there, teeth are for subtracting.

 

[levance2]

You aren't interested in watching organized AAU ball with teams changing every year? You must be the only one.

If interest wanes, the schools will bring in less revenue and the "big time college sports" will become less big. Schools will become schools again and players who want to be quasi-pros will play in the G-League.

Right now, the NCAA wants to push "student athletes" while being an unpaid minor league, and those two objectives are in conflict.

College sports are going to end up like boxing or horse racing as forgotten pastimes.

 

[BPKY]

Has anyone discussed NIL in the absence of the portal? Or vice versa. Seems like it's the combination that creates big problems.

 

[PeetWeet2]

Customers pay the bills for all sports teams. And most of the customers don't like the fact that their best players can become free agents and leave their teams for nothing when they are out of contract. So therefore there should no longer be free agency in sports, right, because most fans don't really like it. And most fans don't like it when players sign big multi-million dollar contracts either, so we need to stop that from happening too.

I mean who cares about those people, and hey, really, why are we even bothering to call them people, who cares about what the property wants, right? When they go to college they become nothing more than marionettes to dance on the strings for our entertainment, right? Who gives a damn if we do what's right by the puppets, as long as they keep dancing for our entertainment.

In fairness, movement restrictions are common for athletes. The difference between “pro” and the NCAA is that the “pro” groups agreements have been collectively bargained in order to give up some employment rights for other benefits.

 

[Ski11585]

How much if the whining in this thread is due to the fact that Pitt hoops sucks? Nobody seems to complain about transfers for football where Pitt is clearly benefitting. If hoops turned it around tomorrow and was a top 25 team landing big transfers nobody would complain a bit.