David Hale on ACC recruiting

[joeydavid]

Read this a few weeks ago but don't think anyone post it here. Good read and perspective on ACC recruiting.

https://davidmhale.com/2019/05/10/your-recruiting-success-is-already-decided/

 

[PittCity]

no thanks.
ACC recruiting blah.
Clemson 1
Pitt middling.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

Read this a few weeks ago but don't think anyone post it here. Good read and perspective on ACC recruiting.

https://davidmhale.com/2019/05/10/your-recruiting-success-is-already-decided/

Come a long way since the P5 formed. For sure a lot further than anyone predicted.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I just wish there were something Pitt could do to improve its recruiting.

 

[ChazzMo]

Interesting read -

 

[Usuallyunusual]

I just wish there were something Pitt could do to improve its recruiting.

You means besides win more. Yeah probably not much. At this point recruits want to see Duzz's vision taking shape. I hope he breaks the 9 win barrier and finishes top 25. I have to believe that's how most are measuring success this year.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Unusual - I feel if we can win 8 in the season and maybe a bowl game we can take a jump in recruiting. Our OOC schedule is still 1 win too hard compared to competition.

You means besides win more. Yeah probably not much. At this point recruits want to see Duzz's vision taking shape. I hope he breaks the 9 win barrier and finishes top 25. I have to believe that's how most are measuring success this year.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

8 regular season wins this year means narduzzi has 3 eight win regular seasons out of 5, and another season where he won the coastal.

An 8 or more win regular season win and we are debating that narduzzi is our most successful coach since sherrill.

Now, let’s win 8 or more regular season games this year so we can have this debate.

 

[daminals76]

I just wish there were something Pitt could do to improve its recruiting.

Bring in more salesmen...

New WR coach Chris Beatty is a step in the right direction. Need more good recruiters.

 

[Jeffburgh]

"Decisions on the culture you want and the specific recruits you go after is probably more important than the ability to sell generic blue-chip recruits on the school."

This is the reality.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I just wish there were something Pitt could do to improve its recruiting.

Coaches interested in recruiting

 

[joeydavid]

"Decisions on the culture you want and the specific recruits you go after is probably more important than the ability to sell generic blue-chip recruits on the school."

This is the reality.

That's statement is exactly how you would describe schools like Wisconsin or a Northwestern- I believe it's what Narduzzi was trying to say when he was asked about recruiting 5* players back in February. He knows that lane he's in and seems to look for team first guys with the goal having the the sum of the parts over perform the individual rankings.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

That's statement is exactly how you would describe schools like Wisconsin or a Northwestern- I believe it's what Narduzzi was trying to say when he was asked about recruiting 5* players back in February. He knows that lane he's in and seems to look for team first guys with the goal having the the sum of the parts over perform the individual rankings.

It sounds more like a generic excuse when you cant land highly rated players. "We dont look at stars, we look at character." Well, those high character kids better win games because Miami, VT, and UNC are recruiting better players.

 

[Jeffburgh]

It sounds more like a generic excuse when you cant land highly rated players. "We dont look at stars, we look at character." Well, those high character kids better win games because Miami, VT, and UNC are recruiting better players.

As the article highlights, it is the situation for 95% of the D1 programs. Past the top dozen or so schools, everyone else is scrapping for a small fraction of the 4 & 5 stars and mid level 3 star types.
So, it is fit for the system, and who they are comfortable with.
The winners in that group are the guys who 1) truly have an edge in coaching and have good "systems" offensively and defensive, and with STs 2) something people just don't get, those who can create the normative system where all the players buy in, truly commit to doing what is best for the program, and are able to get the absolutely best of out the players.
Can't know until a coach has time to prove out one way or another.

 

[joeydavid]

It sounds more like a generic excuse when you cant land highly rated players. "We dont look at stars, we look at character." Well, those high character kids better win games because Miami, VT, and UNC are recruiting better players.

That would make sense if an individual who has no dog in this fight just didn't just statistically blow up that argument. Other than a handful of programs- you are not going to land a ton a 5* and 4* recruits.

 

[pittdan77]

The problem that is emerging with Narduzzi is that he ends up with anywhere from 4 to 6 true projects in his classes. At least 20% of the players he's bringing in probably aren't ever going to help him. That's the finer point everyone misses. You start to avoid the overreach on kids that really need to develop and bring in kids that can actually compete for positions, you suddenly don't have position groups that scare you to death every season and you still will have enough roster turnover that you can still shop the transfer market.

The best graph showed the statistical trend lines. Syracuse is trending upwards (and it shows) and UNC is trending downward at about the same rate. Will be interesting to watch.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

You mean the team we slapped 52 on last year? haha

If other Coastal schools can land 4-5 four stars every year, why does Pitt struggle to even land 1. Va Tech alone averaged 8 over the past 2 years. Cant Pitt strive for just half that?

 

[Pittski]

I just wish there were something Pitt could do to improve its recruiting.

At this point we have to hope the style of play and continuity of staff creates strides which result in better performances. I think we’re going to have a more attractive product to market moving forward but I’m also shopping at the Whipple, Bates, Beatty & Borbs kool aid stand.

 

[joeydavid]

If other Coastal schools can land 4-5 four stars every year, why does Pitt struggle to even land 1. Va Tech alone averaged 8 over the past 2 years. Cant Pitt strive for just half that?

The WPIAL isn't VA in terms of talent and Pitt hasn't had the stability of a V-tech. If you look at the 11 year trends both Pitt and Vtech agree on the same rising plane; the only difference is vtech started at higher level.

 

[ThePanthers]

Pitt should be recruiting on the same level as UNC, VT, NC State, etc. We should not be recruiting on the level of Rutgers, Syracuse, BC, Wake, Duke, etc. Period.

Per Hales data, we are on the same level as NC State, VT, UNC, etc.

 

[ThePanthers]

So what is Narduzzi's excuse on why he can only recruit two 4 stars over the past 2 years. Other schools in the division are getting 4 stars.
NC at 9
Ga Tech at 5
Virginia at 4
Duke at 2

Pitt is being left behind by every division school but Duke

Yet we have the following records against those teams:

UNC 0-4
GT 3-1
UVA 4-0
Duke 4-0

11-5 since Narduzzi came.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Pitt should be recruiting on the same level as UNC, VT, NC State, etc. We should not be recruiting on the level of Rutgers, Syracuse, BC, Wake, Duke, etc. Period.

Dude, read the article:

"What you’ll see is essentially three tiers.

The gold, purple and green lines represent FSU, Clemson and Miami, respectively. Those three programs are recruiting at an entirely different level than the rest of the conference both historically and — especially — currently. This also really lays bare how good Dabo has been since that first title team in 2015, with three straight classes (and soon to be four) ahead of FSU’s.

The next tier — the middlings as we’ll call them — include Virginia Tech, North Carolina and NC State, with Louisville, Pitt and (surprisingly) Duke hanging around the fringes.

Then there are the bottom dwellers. Syracuse, Wake Forest, BC, Georgia Tech and Virginia holding fairly steady (save a year or two under Mike London at UVA) in this group.

 

[DiehardPanther]

So what is Narduzzi's excuse on why he can only recruit two 4 stars over the past 2 years. Other schools in the division are getting 4 stars.
NC at 9
Ga Tech at 5
Virginia at 4
Duke at 2

Pitt is being left behind by every division school but Duke

What is Narduzzi’s record against GT, UVA, and Duke?

 

[DiehardPanther]

And 1-3 against miami and 2-2 against va tech
His below average recruiting will be Pitt's undoing
Pitt is being left behind

You act as though Pitt was some juggernaut before Narduzzi got here. What was our record from 1991-99? 2000-2014?

 

[ThePanthers]

You act as though Pitt was some juggernaut before Narduzzi got here. What was our record from 1991-99? 2000-2014?

He just joined the ignore list.

 

[lilspainishflea]

Narduzzi is 28-24 but 20-12 in conference. So he's dominating the ACC but is 8-12 against PSU (1-3), ND (0-2), Oklahoma State (0-2), Iowa, Central Florida, Navy (Bowl), Northwestern (Bowl), and Stanford (Bowl). Replace Oklahoma State and Central Florida with patsies and he's 31-21 with a 9-4 season and and 8-6 season. So it's clear that some of our issues are perception due to over-scheduling.

Let's be real. Narduzzi is kind of a Rorschach test. When you look at him, everyone sees something different:

- Do you see winning the Coastal outright or losing to UNC and Stanford?
- Do you see the record against ACC teams or his overall record?
- Do you see his defensive inflexibility or the awesome creativity of the 2016 team?
- Do you see the recruiting rankings or what he's done with those recruits?

Personally, I have been up and down and up on Narduzzi. I've loved the wins against better teams and avoiding losses against worse teams. I've hated watching us get shredded on defense and waste a promising team playing an inflexible defensive scheme in 2016. I loved his attitude against Penn State, Clemson, and Notre Dame and hated players taking dives against Central Florida. I was very down on the defense but am now up on them and feel like they may have turned a corner last year. I also think that Whipple will unlock the offense (it does have some weapons) and Beatty will bring in some new, good players. I've liked the guys from the South they've gotten the last few years. I'm hoping that some of those changes lead to progress in 2019 and beyond.

 

[lilspainishflea]

If you think Pitt can succeed by recruiting at Narduzzi's level, you are mistaken. You will see no final rankings and you will never experience a 10 win season unless the stars align. If you are satisfied with 5-9 win seasons, then Narduzzi is your guy. If you aim higher, then Narduzzi needs to recruit more talent. Its not debatable.

A fifth of the top 25 are 8 or 9 win teams so those teams aren't necessarily bad. Would anyone here be mad if we were an 8 or 9 win team and consistently won the ACC Coastal? I wouldn't be.

 

[Ghost of Pitt Stadium]

A fifth of the top 25 are 8 or 9 win teams so those teams aren't necessarily bad. Would anyone here be mad if we were an 8 or 9 win team and consistently won the ACC Coastal? I wouldn't be.

Stanford finished with 9 wins last year and were on the outside looking in. But yes 9-10 wins should in most years get a school ranked in the top 25...thats what recruits see. When was the last time that happened in Pitt's case? You have to go back to Wanny.

I dont see how Pitt can consistently win the Coastal when no school has ever done it. Every school sans Virginia has won it at least once.

I'd like Pitt to be a consistent 9-10 game winner. To me that means an easier OOC and better recruiting. So Pitt isnt far off but it hasnt been able to get over that hump and I have my doubts it ever will under Narduzzi.

 

[SUPERTODD]

Narduzzi is 28-24 but 20-12 in conference. So he's dominating the ACC but is 8-12 against PSU (1-3), ND (0-2), Oklahoma State (0-2), Iowa, Central Florida, Navy (Bowl), Northwestern (Bowl), and Stanford (Bowl). Replace Oklahoma State and Central Florida with patsies and he's 31-21 with a 9-4 season and and 8-6 season. So it's clear that some of our issues are perception due to over-scheduling.

Let's be real. Narduzzi is kind of a Rorschach test. When you look at him, everyone sees something different:

- Do you see winning the Coastal outright or losing to UNC and Stanford?
- Do you see the record against ACC teams or his overall record?
- Do you see his defensive inflexibility or the awesome creativity of the 2016 team?
- Do you see the recruiting rankings or what he's done with those recruits?

Personally, I have been up and down and up on Narduzzi. I've loved the wins against better teams and avoiding losses against worse teams. I've hated watching us get shredded on defense and waste a promising team playing an inflexible defensive scheme in 2016. I loved his attitude against Penn State, Clemson, and Notre Dame and hated players taking dives against Central Florida. I was very down on the defense but am now up on them and feel like they may have turned a corner last year. I also think that Whipple will unlock the offense (it does have some weapons) and Beatty will bring in some new, good players. I've liked the guys from the South they've gotten the last few years. I'm hoping that some of those changes lead to progress in 2019 and beyond.

The post was spot on until the last few sentences. Not sure how a guy is supposed to “unlock the offense” with no one to block. Narduzzi’s best teams have had offensive lines which could maul people in the run game when they had to at the end of the game. And they generally have had to run, run, run because the passing attack has, other than one year, never been close to an equal in terms of the production.

Whipple will improve the offense, but the offensive line looks to be about to take a major step back. Pickett is a decent QB in a balanced offense. This will not be a balanced offense. Having “weapons” is great, but more of a luxury. The O line has been the hallmark of good Naruzzi teams. I just don’t see how this will be even average one.

 

[DiehardPanther]

The post was spot on until the last few sentences. Not sure how a guy is supposed to “unlock the offense” with no one to block. Narduzzi’s best teams have had offensive lines which could maul people in the run game when they had to at the end of the game. And they generally have had to run, run, run because the passing attack has, other than one year, never been close to an equal in terms of the production.

Whipple will improve the offense, but the offensive line looks to be about to take a major step back. Pickett is a decent QB in a balanced offense. This will not be a balanced offense. Having “weapons” is great, but more of a luxury. The O line has been the hallmark of good Naruzzi teams. I just don’t see how this will be even average one.

Most people were saying the same thing about the OL last year. We shall see.

 

[pittdan77]

So what is Narduzzi's excuse on why he can only recruit two 4 stars over the past 2 years. Other schools in the division are getting 4 stars.
NC at 9
Ga Tech at 5
Virginia at 4
Duke at 2

Pitt is being left behind by every division school but Duke

It's a lot more complicated than just saying Pitt needs more 4-stars. It's not like they've made superstars out of the highly rated 3's and 4's they've brought in, either.

 

[joeydavid]

The post was spot on until the last few sentences. Not sure how a guy is supposed to “unlock the offense” with no one to block. Narduzzi’s best teams have had offensive lines which could maul people in the run game when they had to at the end of the game. And they generally have had to run, run, run because the passing attack has, other than one year, never been close to an equal in terms of the production.

Whipple will improve the offense, but the offensive line looks to be about to take a major step back. Pickett is a decent QB in a balanced offense. This will not be a balanced offense. Having “weapons” is great, but more of a luxury. The O line has been the hallmark of good Naruzzi teams. I just don’t see how this will be even average one.

Last year's oline consisted of a walkon, a MAC player, 2 journeymen who didn't start until their 5th year and a guard playing tackle.

The raw talent level will be improved this season.

 

[Ghost of Pitt Stadium]

It's a lot more complicated than just saying Pitt needs more 4-stars. It's not like they've made superstars out of the highly rated 3's and 4's they've brought in, either.

Recruiting is just one variable but it is a very important one.
I cant figure out Narduzzi's strategy.
His recruiting has gotten worse over the years
I dont see the degree of development needed in players
But whatever it is, it seems to be good enough for 8 wins
But I dont see Narduzzi breaking the 10 win ceiling either
So good teams but never exceptional

 

[pittdan77]

Recruiting is just one variable but it is a very important one.
I cant figure out Narduzzi's strategy.
His recruiting has gotten worse over the years
I dont see the degree of development needed in players
But whatever it is, it seems to be good enough for 8 wins
But I dont see Narduzzi breaking the 10 win ceiling either
So good teams but never exceptional

I'll be the first to tell you that recruiting is a problem. But Pitt really has done well enough to win the Coastal every couple of years. It's just that the Coastal is really bad and you can win it without any passing game.

 

[McKee Place]

As I've posted, I like Narduzzi as a coach and consider recruiting problems to be institutional and not due to deficiencies with him or his staff.

He has been able to keep the head above water W-L wise even with recruiting receding. He's been able to scratch together wins... so far. But eventually the drop in the average ratings won't be able to be written off as mathematical error. It'll have real (real bad) meaning in terms of players who are just a little worse year in and out.

Even if things stay the same with our opponents we'll eventually not be able to pull enough wins out of our tails to win the division or even qualify for bowls. As if the Coastal (at 7-5) or an occasional Pinstripe Bowl were even enough to grow fans or even keep the same level of interest (they aren't...the standards are higher in our region). But we eventually won't even be able to achieve that. Eventually you just can't win games with players not as good as your opponents. As much as i like Duz, he's not a miracle worker.

 

[lilspainishflea]

As I've posted, I like Narduzzi as a coach and consider recruiting problems to be institutional and not due to deficiencies with him or his staff.

He has been able to keep the head above water W-L wise even with recruiting receding. He's been able to scratch together wins... so far. But eventually the drop in the average ratings won't be able to be written off as mathematical error. It'll have real (real bad) meaning in terms of players who are just a little worse year in and out.

Even if things stay the same with our opponents we'll eventually not be able to pull enough wins out of our tails to win the division or even qualify for bowls. As if the Coastal (at 7-5) or an occasional Pinstripe Bowl were even enough to grow fans or even keep the same level of interest (they aren't...the standards are higher in our region). But we eventually won't even be able to achieve that. Eventually you just can't win games with players not as good as your opponents. As much as i like Duz, he's not a miracle worker.

We've been fairly fortunate to be in the ACC, especially the Coastal because 1) GT ran an idiosyncratic system that Narduzzi had been able to handle; 2) UVA isn't institutionally obsessed with football; and 3) our crossover game is Syracuse, a P-5 team that suffers from a lot of the same regional, funding, and demographic issues that we do. I think going 5-1 against Duke and 0-6 against UNC is basically a wash.

I'm ok with Narduzzi so far. I think there's stuff to be encouraged about and I hope that his defensive rigidness is over. Recruiting has not slipped that much even from a Wanny high (high 20s/low 30s with a high 40s class to mid 30s/high 30s with a high 40s class) and I think will eventually take care of itself. We can't stand still. GT is coming. VT and Miami will figure it out eventually. We need to fill the space in the vacuum now while we can.

 

[SUPERTODD]

Last year's oline consisted of a walkon, a MAC player, 2 journeymen who didn't start until their 5th year and a guard playing tackle.

The raw talent level will be improved this season.

Teams returning one starter on the OL do not improve. And there hasn’t really been an increase in talent on the OL in terms of recruiting. The kids Narduzzi is pulling in from Florida etc are almost all at the skill positions.

 

[pittdan77]

And there hasn’t really been an increase in talent on the OL in terms of recruiting.

Recruiting hasn't been stellar. So they seem to be looking for guys that have some athleticism and big frames with an eye towards development on the secondary market. There are a couple of other qualities with the approach the kids take that I've noticed but those are coaching preferences, I think. Honestly, Pitt does pretty well with the decent local kids who play OL. There just haven't been many and they've had to take some guys that weren't exactly what they wanted.

I think it's okay to stop reveling in the fact that Morrisey is a walk-on. He's earned his stripes. Houy and Hargrove should make that next step. Drake? I don't know. But they had a DL-man move over in the spring, they needed to move a guard out to tackle for depth, and they went to the transfer market, yet again. Drexel, who sits behind Morrisey on the depth chart, was a low rated guy that needed a ton of work. We have no idea how that's going. If Morrisey goes down again, does he move up or do they do musical chairs again? Coaching has been a problem, too. Peterson wasn't really developing these guys and couldn't teach pass pro, and it showed.

Borbely did a nice job with that he had to work with last year. He walked into a mess and made it work. Most of the ACC, save Miami and Clemson, aren't exactly throwing world class defensive lines at Pitt so that doesn't hurt and you have had a steady parade of draft worthy RB's. On paper, Whipple's scheme should help. That assumes a lot at QB. I guess we'll see.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Teams returning one starter on the OL do not improve. And there hasn’t really been an increase in talent on the OL in terms of recruiting. The kids Narduzzi is pulling in from Florida etc are almost all at the skill positions.

There hadn’t been an increase in talent at any position-
That’s the alarming thing