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Google Diversity Cluster F*ck

Toddy_Too_Hotty

All American
Aug 12, 2001
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I think this should be a good thread for the board. Google has been attempting to increase diversity for a long time. They are at the end of a few lawsuits concerning how they have gone about increasing it.

This opinion pieced discusses two of them. I thought it would make for an interesting thread topic because the article is fairly balanced discussing how one lawsuit is doomed, but the either may show how badly Google has gone about this. It doesn't get into politics at all, so we can all rely on you to do that. ENJOY!!!

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...organic&utm_source=linkedin&utm_medium=social


134
March 7, 2018, 2:32 PM EST
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The company can embrace diversity without pushing away men.

Photographer: Michael Short/Bloomberg
On the face of it, the idea that Google is discriminating against white men is laugh-out-loud funny. In 2016, according to the company’s most recent diversity report, Google was 69 percent male and 56 percent white. Some 53 percent of the engineering positions were held by white men. Leadership was 75 percent male and 68 percent white. Meanwhile two percent of Google employees were black, and four percent Latino. Although Google has long insisted that it wants to be a more diverse company, these numbers would suggest that it hasn’t had much success.



And yet in the last few months, Google has been hit with several lawsuits claiming the company discriminates against white males. 1 And here’s the strangest part: There is a good chance Google is going to lose one of them.



This all began -- or more accurately, this all burst into the open -- last August when a 10 page screed against short-sighted diversity efforts, written by James Damore, a Google coder, was leaked to the tech website Gizmodo. The memo, which had been posted on an internal Google network, proposed that women could be underrepresented at the company not because hiring managers had a bias against them but because women themselves had less interest in the sort of work that Google does. Among the traits he attributed to women -- and claimed were the reasons they aren't as likely to want to go into coding -- were “neuroticism,” “higher agreeableness” and “a stronger interest in people rather than things.”


Not surprisingly, Damore was soon fired. In January he filed suit, claiming that Google discriminated against white men who held conservative views. Although Damore is being represented by a high-powered lawyer who promotes conservative causes, he has little hope of winning. The National Labor Relations Board has already rejected his claim that his firing was an act of retaliation. Besides, one would be hard-pressed to think of a company that wouldn’t fire an employee who wrote a memo like Damore’s. It’s completely inappropriate.



Still, his memo and its aftermath unleashed something inside Google. Google women have long noted pay disparities -- the subject of a lawsuit against the company last year -- and the lack of leadership roles. They also began complaining more loudly about the attitudes of some of the software engineers they worked with, which, they said, echoed Damore’s views about female coders. “We know when we work with dudes like that,” wrote Cate Huston, a former Google engineer on the website Medium. “We know when we find their comments on our performance review. We know.”

A number of male coders, meanwhile, made it clear that they believe Damore has been punished for speaking an obvious, if politically awkward, truth. In their view, Google’s efforts to create a more diverse workforce have meant that more qualified men -- both white and Asian -- have been passed over for less qualified women and minorities. Last week, Bloomberg broke the news of a lawsuit filed in January by Arne Wilberg, a former Google and YouTube recruiter who says he was fired because he refused to go along with the company’s practices discriminating against white and Asian men.

In his complaint, Wilberg alleges that in its desperation to increase the number of minorities and women at the company, Google told recruiters for certain jobs to consider candidates only “from our underrepresented groups.” He says that recruiters were given quotas, that they were told to cancel interviews with white and Asian male job candidates, and to “purge” applications that weren’t women or minorities. When he complained about these practices to Google’s human resources department, the recruiters reacted by deleting emails that referenced its quota system.

Far more than Damore’s lawsuit, Wilberg’s is a real problem for Google. You might think that a company can hire whomever it wants, but that’s not quite true. On the one hand, “companies that are government contractors, like Google, are obligated to seek out, recruit and bring in women and minorities,” said Gary Siniscalco, a veteran employment lawyer at Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe.

On the other hand, there are rules limiting how companies can go about creating that diversity. They can set flexible goals, they can give minority candidates second looks, they can go out of their way to seek out women and minorities. But they can’t impose quotas. Siniscalco sent me the regulations, which include this paragraph:

Placement goals may not be rigid and inflexible quotas, which must be met, nor are they to be considered as either a ceiling or a floor for employment of particular groups. Quotas are expressly forbidden.

So if Wilberg has the evidence to back up his complaint, it does appear likely that Google has violated the law by excluding white and Asian men from certain job searches (setting a "ceiling" of zero…). Even without federal regulations, quotas have become such a dirty word -- with the Supreme Court consistently outlawing them in university diversity cases -- that a jury might well find for Wilberg.

This potentially absurd result -- that the courts could find that male-dominated Google has discriminated against men -- is a problem entirely of Google’s own making. Companies all over the country, in every sector, undertake diversity efforts, but most of them know how to do it without ever explicitly resorting to quotas, or refusing to interview white men for particular jobs.

More than that, they know how to articulate the importance of diversity to an enterprise. In my profession, journalism, media companies want a diverse workforce in part because they’ll get better, richer stories if people from varied backgrounds and perspectives are reporting and writing those stories. The companies articulate that rationale, and employees understand it. To an unusual degree, the tech industry has failed to make the case for a diverse workforce. Instead, they have allowed its software engineers to hijack the concept of a qualified employee—i.e. someone who think and acts and looks just like them.

It has to pain Google’s founders, Sergey Brin and Larry Page, to see so many of their employees resisting diversity. As my Bloomberg colleague Emily Chang points out in her recent book “Brotopia,” 2 they began the company with the dream that women would be as much a part of Google as men and would hold important leadership positions. Indeed, in its early years, three women -- Susan Wojcicki, Marissa Mayer and Sheryl Sandberg -- were instrumental to the company’s success.

But a combination of rapid growth and business problems caused the founders to take their eye off the ball. Like too many other tech companies, Google allowed a culture to flourish that drove women away. It could have created outreach programs that encouraged women in college to take up engineering and coding to help widen the universe of applications -- but it didn’t. And when Brin and Page finally did pick up the diversity banner, they left it to human resources to spread the word, instead of having every leader in the company pushing it forward. All of that needs to start happening.

The "don't be evil" culture that once made Google such an attractive place to work has fractured. Brin and Page’s most important job right now is to put it back together.
 
The problem here is you can either have diversity or you can hire the most qualified. Sadly, you can’t have both. It’s one or the other.

Pick your poison.
 
The James Damore situation, IMO, is being bent and politicized to an inordinate degree. He wasn't fired because he spoke out against diversity, he was fired because he made a series of inaccurate, stereotypical generalizations that made it impossible for any female employee at Google to work with him ever again.

The better conversation starting point is that white chick who sued the University of Texas.
 
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What’s ironic is the group that is most screwed in this diversity push is Asian males. Yet they seem to be the only ones not screaming racism.

In NYC, they are. They're super discriminated against relative to admittance to the city's magnet schools, and they're fighting against it pretty hard.

I don't feel like sourcing it specifically, but I believe I read that if all admissions were done solely by test scores and test scores only, Asians would take something like 80% of the open slots.

This won't surprise anybody, but I'm for diversity, if only due to the added advantage of having different perspectives and approaches to problem solving. Of course, everyone talks about the issue in a very binary way, where you're either for it and your company hires unqualified minorities by the truckload or you're not and it's a lily-white squash club. The truth in every single situation is in the middle; you hire for diversity to the specific extent that the marginal drop-off in quality, if any, is precisely equal to the amount you personally feel that you gain for having those different perspectives in the room.
 
In what field?
Seems a stereotype without basis or specifics
in the engineering field, specific to this topic.. go to an engineering school, you'll see a lot of Asians, it's not a stereotype.. take a walk on cmu's campus and look around..
 
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In NYC, they are. They're super discriminated against relative to admittance to the city's magnet schools, and they're fighting against it pretty hard.

I don't feel like sourcing it specifically, but I believe I read that if all admissions were done solely by test scores and test scores only, Asians would take something like 80% of the open slots.

This won't surprise anybody, but I'm for diversity, if only due to the added advantage of having different perspectives and approaches to problem solving. Of course, everyone talks about the issue in a very binary way, where you're either for it and your company hires unqualified minorities by the truckload or you're not and it's a lily-white squash club. The truth in every single situation is in the middle; you hire for diversity to the specific extent that the marginal drop-off in quality, if any, is precisely equal to the amount you personally feel that you gain for having those different perspectives in the room.
Some roles would be better off with a diversity of opinion and experience. That doesn't necessarily equate to gender, color, or any other demographic, though.

Other roles - and coding may be one of them - do not benefit from diversity, but would be better based on qualifications.
 
Some roles would be better off with a diversity of opinion and experience. That doesn't necessarily equate to gender, color, or any other demographic, though.

Other roles - and coding may be one of them - do not benefit from diversity, but would be better based on qualifications.
That's why I just shake my head when I see people say stuff like "I'm for diversity, if only due to the added advantage of having different perspectives and approaches to problem solving."

He's basically saying that you can have people from different racial makeups live in the U.S. and fail to demonstrate sufficient problem solving in school to distinguish themselves, but he still believes there's is something about their race or culture that could lead them to perform better than those who have demonstrated performance in the past. All based on some bigoted view that people of other races and cultures have something that you can't get from white Europeans. Maybe if these people came from cultures with a history of technical achievement, that might be warranted.

That's not to say that you wouldn't hire a Tongan to work at your tattoo shop or an Islander to cook at you Caribbean restaurant. But for disciplines unrelated to culture, there is no benefit provided by diversity when not tied to qualifications.

Back in the sixties we were told by libs that the problem was that whites would not hire qualified blacks based solely on their race. Now libs are arguing to hire people based solely on race. Reverse racism.
 
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That's why I just shake my head when I see people say stuff like "I'm for diversity, if only due to the added advantage of having different perspectives and approaches to problem solving."

He's basically saying that you can have people from different racial makeups live in the U.S. and fail to demonstrate sufficient problem solving in school to distinguish themselves, but he still believes there's is something about their race or culture that could lead them to perform better than those who have demonstrated performance in the past. All based on some bigoted view that people of other races and cultures have something that you can't get from white Europeans. Maybe if these people came from cultures with a history of technical achievement, that might be warranted.

That's not to say that you wouldn't hire a Tongan to work at your tattoo shop or an Islander to cook at you Caribbean restaurant. But for disciplines unrelated to culture, there is no benefit provided by diversity when not tied to qualifications.

Back in the sixties we were told by libs that the problem was that whites would not hire qualified blacks based solely on their race. Now libs are arguing to hire people based solely on race. Reverse racism.
Diveeeeeerrrrsity.

Leftist bunk.
 
I think RACIAL diversity can legitimetly bring benefits in marketing and sales type roles.

I think it adds nothing to STEM majors. Diversity of thinking and problem solving is a benefit here.
Exactly. Ethnic diversity adds little to no value to a ethnically homogeneous population.
 
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Exactly. Ethnic diversity adds little to no value to a ethnically homogeneous population.

Horseshit. That's complete garbage.

Either none of you actually work in modern STEM, or you work at a place which requires no high-level problem solving or creativity.

This isn't a situation where you're an automaton and you take business requirements out. Leave that shit for the Ukraine or India or wherever you outsource infantry-level development. Anything that actually requires product management or business analysis benefits from having people who can bring different solutions and perspectives to the table.

I actually don't even know why I'm even having this conversation. I'm debating technology team building with a bunch of 60 year olds who probably think IBM is still a leading company.
 
How about racial diversity quotas in professional sports? To be parallel Two population demographics?

How about athletic scholarships meet the same demographics as the student population? See libs, hear how that sounds? Kind of silly huh?
 
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That's why I just shake my head when I see people say stuff like "I'm for diversity, if only due to the added advantage of having different perspectives and approaches to problem solving."

He's basically saying that you can have people from different racial makeups live in the U.S. and fail to demonstrate sufficient problem solving in school to distinguish themselves, but he still believes there's is something about their race or culture that could lead them to perform better than those who have demonstrated performance in the past. All based on some bigoted view that people of other races and cultures have something that you can't get from white Europeans. Maybe if these people came from cultures with a history of technical achievement, that might be warranted.

That's not to say that you wouldn't hire a Tongan to work at your tattoo shop or an Islander to cook at you Caribbean restaurant. But for disciplines unrelated to culture, there is no benefit provided by diversity when not tied to qualifications.

Back in the sixties we were told by libs that the problem was that whites would not hire qualified blacks based solely on their race. Now libs are arguing to hire people based solely on race. Reverse racism.

Yeah, reverse racism, yeah, us white people have it so hard.

****ing idiots, all of you. Christ.

That is absolutely not what I said at all, so it doesn't surprise me that you immediately took the victim complex route, probably because your life sucks and you blame minorities and women for it.

What I said was, in any situation where the marginal difference between two candidates is minimal in terms of talent and/or intelligence, then you hire towards the one who brings different perspectives to the table. Sometimes that means someone who comes from a university who teaches different methodologies. Sometimes that means a woman. Sometimes that means someone who comes from a place of great domain expertise. Sometimes it means the exact opposite.

All you heard was reverse racism. GEE I WONDER WHY THAT IS
 
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Horseshit. That's complete garbage.

Either none of you actually work in modern STEM, or you work at a place which requires no high-level problem solving or creativity.

This isn't a situation where you're an automaton and you take business requirements out. Leave that shit for the Ukraine or India or wherever you outsource infantry-level development. Anything that actually requires product management or business analysis benefits from having people who can bring different solutions and perspectives to the table.

I actually don't even know why I'm even having this conversation. I'm debating technology team building with a bunch of 60 year olds who probably think IBM is still a leading company.
I love the irony in this post. You preach diversity of perspectives then choose to demean 60 year olds. You do know that we actually bring more years of life experience to the table, right? And some have us were very successful in the very fields you discuss.
 
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Horseshit. That's complete garbage.

Either none of you actually work in modern STEM, or you work at a place which requires no high-level problem solving or creativity.

This isn't a situation where you're an automaton and you take business requirements out. Leave that shit for the Ukraine or India or wherever you outsource infantry-level development. Anything that actually requires product management or business analysis benefits from having people who can bring different solutions and perspectives to the table.

I actually don't even know why I'm even having this conversation. I'm debating technology team building with a bunch of 60 year olds who probably think IBM is still a leading company.

Chinese companies and Japanese companies have no problem competing in STEM related business, correct?

How diverse are their companies? If I go to an engineering firm in China, or a tech company in China, are their employees diverse, or are they all mostly Chinese?
 
I love the irony in this post. You preach diversity of perspectives then choose to demean 60 year olds. You do know that we actually bring more years of life experience to the table, right? And some have us were very successful in the very fields you discuss.

He's the biggest racist on this board...he never makes a post without a disparaging comment towards whites.
 
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Chinese companies and Japanese companies have no problem competing in STEM related business, correct?

How diverse or their companies? If I go to an engineering firm in China, or a tech company in China, are their employees diverse, or at they all mostly Chinese?
If you go to china, you’ll be given an extremely short work visa and trust me, you’ll sure as hell want to be out of there before that work visa is up.
 
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If you go to china, you’ll be given an extremely short work visa and trust me, you’ll sure as hell want to be out of there before that work visa is up.

Are their engineering firms filled with black women? Are their tech firms filled equally with black men?

What about their universities, are they diverse faculty?
 
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Are their engineering firms filled with black women? Are their tech firms filled equally with black men?

What about their universities, are they diverse faculty?
What do you think? If you can prove value to them, you’ll be granted a short window. They don’t want outsiders. I’ve talked to some engineers who’ve worked in Chiba with 48-72 hour visas. Hell, I’ve had to deal with getting oil field workers in Canada, that was a pain in ass dealing with their labour market.
 
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What do you think? If you can prove value to them, you’ll be granted a short window. They don’t want outsiders. I’ve talked to some engineers who’ve worked in Chiba with 48-72 hour visas. Hell, I’ve had to deal with getting oil field workers in Canada, that was a pain in ass dealing with their labour market.

My point is that companies can function and be competitive, and often times dominant without any diversity.

The notion that diversity is necessary is a liberal figment.
 
Yeah, reverse racism, yeah, us white people have it so hard.

****ing idiots, all of you. Christ.

That is absolutely not what I said at all, so it doesn't surprise me that you immediately took the victim complex route, probably because your life sucks and you blame minorities and women for it.

What I said was, in any situation where the marginal difference between two candidates is minimal in terms of talent and/or intelligence, then you hire towards the one who brings different perspectives to the table. Sometimes that means someone who comes from a university who teaches different methodologies. Sometimes that means a woman. Sometimes that means someone who comes from a place of great domain expertise. Sometimes it means the exact opposite.

All you heard was reverse racism. GEE I WONDER WHY THAT IS
That's what you say now. It's not what you said before. This thread was about racial and gender diversity, not diversity of educational background/methodologies or diversity of experience. Those types of differences would fall under qualifications.

"your company hires unqualified minorities by the truckload or you're not and it's a lily-white squash club." Show me the word "methodologies"

But hey, I'm more than willing to let you pick up the goal posts and plant them somewhere else. Souf shouldn't be the only lib permitted.

So, I'll give you another chance. Tell us all why a white male can't come from a university who teaches different methodologies. For once in your posting history try and provide an example to back up your point rather than flame and flee. Or just admit that racial or gender diversity is meaningless. I can't wait for your next salvo of pretzel logic.

Reverse racism means libs want diversity because they don't think it's fair the white males get jobs. Bigotry is heinous unless, of course, it's liberal bigotry. And I never said white people had it bad. I said the "we need diversity" meme was racist and idiotic. And you keep proving it.
 
What do you think? If you can prove value to them, you’ll be granted a short window. They don’t want outsiders. I’ve talked to some engineers who’ve worked in Chiba with 48-72 hour visas. Hell, I’ve had to deal with getting oil field workers in Canada, that was a pain in ass dealing with their labour market.
I work for a global company. We have a few sites in China. They have no problem taking employees from the USA and the EU. As long as they have the expertise and get the job done, they can come. No one goes for less than 6 months and it is usually 2-3 years.
 
I work for a global company. We have a few sites in China. They have no problem taking employees from the USA and the EU. As long as they have the expertise and get the job done, they can come. No one goes for less than 6 months and it is usually 2-3 years.
They let USA in... to steal YOUR technology
 
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