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Heisman Trophy, one of the most legit awards IMO

Pitt79

Board of Trustee
Oct 3, 2005
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Heisman_Trophy_winners

I think lately, it has gotten kind of screwed up, I mean it was supposed to be "Best College Football Player", and now it is "Best College Football Offensive Skill Player on a highly ranked, contending Power 5 Team", but still, the thing that makes the award so legit, is "Best College Football Player" they still award the thing based on the performance for the current year with no concern for "pro potential", If you look at the list, the GREAT THING about it, that proves the award is legit, is that so many of the winners are TOTAL BUSTS in the NFL, to me that say's it was awarded for the right reasons, how you did in college right now and not what you might do later.
 
When Jason White won it lost all credibility
Yes and no.

I do remember a lot of voters picked White because they thought it was his last year, and that Fitz would have to return and thus get another chance. That's bad reasoning on its own made worse by the fact that neither happened.
That and the two local jackasses who didn't vote for Fitz
 
That 2003 season was really a breaking point with me and the Heisman Trophy. I don't lend it much legitimacy of all. It is a lot like any of the other individual awards in college football. Good for the kid who wins it, but I don't care either way because it's so rarely goes to the actual best player.

I mean, I get that it is a college award given to the best player for that particular season. However, shouldn't it occasionally go to a guy who then goes on to star in the NFL? That never really happens anymore. Instead it almost always goes to a guy who is a good player on a team with an exceptionally large fan base.

There have been plenty of other head scratchers in the history of that award but that 2003 season seemed really hard to believe.

I understand that Jason White had a great season statistically and that Oklahoma was a very strong team. However, all one had to do was watch the kid play and you could see that he was clearly a product of the famous Air Raid system.

He had a limited arm and no mobility whatsoever. He was a poor man's Bernie Kozar.

Yes, he put up tremendous statistics. However, so too did every other quarterback who played in that system. I could name some of those luminaries if you like but what would be the point? It is not exactly an impressive list. Basically, everyone who played quarterback for Hal Mumme or any of his disciples during that era put up enormous numbers. Most people have never heard of any of them because none of them were any good.

Baylor is still running that system and no matter who they plug-in, that guy looks like the next Dan Marino.

I guess I just expected the voters to do some actual work. I wanted to see actual analysis and evaluation, not empty headed rote numbers crunching. A seven-year-old boy Who has never actually watched a single game in his life can do that.

I mean the word is supposed to go to the best player, right? If it is purely statistically driven, then I don't need to hear any of those folks' analysis because they really aren't doing any analysis anyway.

I mean, all you had to do was watch Jason White play for 10 minutes then flip over and watch Larry Fitzgerald play for 10 minutes. That basically should have done it for most people because it was not a remotely difficult choice. You didn't exactly need Chuck Noll's legendary eye for talent to quickly understand who was the better football player. However, you did need to actually watch each of them play.

It is long forgotten now but one of the most ironic things about that 2003 season was that the primary criticism of Fitzgerald was that HE was the product of the system, not White. That seems strange in retrospect but it is absolutely true.

Just before the vote, a writer for the Detroit Free Press, I cannot remember his name, wrote an article that appeared in USA Today that was very scathing towards Fitzgerald. It questioned his competition as well as his system. The guy wrote that former Michigan state wide receiver Charles Rodgers – does anyone even remember that guy? – was better than Fitzgerald and should've been given any awards over him. The thinking was that Rodgers was similarly athletic and he played against better competition in the Big Ten. Case closed.

I was incredulous and asked the man if he had ever actually seen Fitzgerald play in an actual game, not just highlights? Because I was seeing that guy play every single week and every single week he did something - and usually multiple times in the same game - that made me jump out of my seat.

His response, and I will never forget this admission, was that he covered college football for a living and did not have the time to sit down on his couch and watch Fitzgerald play.

However, he was well aware of Pitt's pass happy system and the fact that the Big East stunk. In fact, I think he used the word "SUCKED" and he spelled it in all caps so that I understood exactly how highly regarded the Big East was in his eyes.

Basically, he was saying that no Big East player could possibly be that good. That came as a surprise to me given the number of first round draft choices that league had been regularly churning out at that point - many of whom went on to become NFL stars and a few of whom have already been inducted or will one day be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

That was the mentality then and I'm sure it is still the mentality today for so many voters. I am sorry but that is illegitimate by every reasonable measure. Anyone who lends that type of system any sort of credibility is an imbecile.

He and I went back-and-forth through email (it was 2003 after all) a solid 10–15 times and he would not budge. As we went back-and-forth, and as I was (politely) kicking his ass with facts, he became frustrated with the discourse. He then went so far as to guarantee me that Larry Fitzgerald would be a bust in the NFL.

I wrote back to him that he had just disqualified himself from serious consideration as a football analyst because that was the dumbest opinion I had ever read in my life - especially given the fact that the man making that guarantee had already conceded that he had not actually seen the guy play.

He never responded and history has proven one of us correct. I will leave you to guess who that might be.

My point is the award should go to the best college football player – not the guy who is the best player on one of the best teams. More importantly, these days it tends to go to a guy who is the best player on one of the most popular teams. I just can't get with that.
 
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Any award for "Best College Football Player" that could go to Jason freaking White over Larry Fitzgerald in 2003 is a bogus award.

Not really, the award has nothing to do with what they may or may not do as a pro, White threw for 3846 yards and 40 TDs with only 10 ints, so he's a legit winner, it doesn't matter than he could never even make an NFL practice squad, it has nothing to do with the NFL or even ability, it just has to do with performance, only for that one year, only in college football, potential should never factor in.
 
IMO, the Heisman is probably one of the least reputable awards given. Sure a lot of great players win it, but it's supposed to go "college footballs most outstanding player", which is a pretty vague description. the unfortunate thing is that, as the OP said, if you not the offensive star of a highly ranked power 5 team, then you could be the greatest college football player ever an not even be considered. This year, IMO, Keenan Reynolds should have walked away with the award. He may not be the best pro prospect, but as far as being "college footballs most outstanding player", there wasn't anybody else even close.
 
My point is the award should go to the best college football player – not the guy who is the best player on one of the best teams. More importantly, these days it tends to go to a guy who is the best player on one of the most popular teams. I just can't get with that.

I agree with this part of it, however, it should have nothing to do with how they might project to the NFL or anything to do with "potential"... If you have the best year, your team kicks ass, you pile up huge numbers, and every NFL scout agrees you are slow and weak and have a weak arm and that you will be a bust and not even drafted. You are still deserving of this award. It doesn't even have anything to do with who has the most talent, just who delivered in this one year.
 
This year, IMO, Keenan Reynolds should have walked away with the award. He may not be the best pro prospect, but as far as being "college footballs most outstanding player", there wasn't anybody else even close.

That's true, the weakness though is that it now only goes to P5 players. But Keenan Reynolds is the type of guy who deserves it, someone that no NFL team wants as a QB, but can play QB in a college "system".

My point is, that often it does go to someone with no NFL future, which to me makes it more legit, clearly because they aren't basing it on what might happen in the future.
 
This year for example, does anyone really believe that Derek Henry is the best player in all of college football?

Hell no, he isn't!

He was the third best player in New York!

He just happens to be the best running back Alabama currently has and he benefits greatly from playing behind probably the best OL in college football – just as Mark Ingram and Trent Richardson did before him.

Don't get me wrong, Henry is a good football player. He is a big lumbering runner who can really punish would be tacklers. However, he has no wiggle and no shake.

I honestly believe that Pitt's own James Conner is a VERY comparable talent and I don't think he is the best player in college football either. Alas, James plays for Pitt, while Derek plays for Bama. That's the biggest difference between the two as far as I can tell.

System guys, nothing more. Hell, TJ Yeldon and Eddie Lacy were the best running backs of that entire bunch but they had to split carries, so they did not get quite the same level of attention. However, they are getting that attention in the NFL because they deserve it.
 
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However, you know a QB with the numbers Jason White put up while playing for a team that is contending for a National Title is going to win that award every time over a WR.

If the tables were reversed and Pitt was contending for a National Title with a QB that had 41 TDs and 6 Ints, versus a WR playing in the Belk Bowl, you know the majority of Pitt fans would be pissed if the award was given to the WR. (even if the QB is a product of the system and the WR is NFL HOF caliber)
This is true, however my problem is that Jason White did not lead the country in most categories at his position. In fact not even the Big 12.

Same season, '03, B.J. Symons of Texas Tech - had 22 INT, but 52 TD passes, 5833 yards, led the country in completions, attempts, passing yards, passing TD, total yards, and total TD, and the Big 12 in completion percentage. Those INTs were second most in NCAA so not saying he should've won the Heisman.

Point is though that Fitz was breaking numerous NCAA receiving records, White did not lead his conference in most passing categories. The Tech QB was absolutely a product of the system and you're absolutely right about why White won it. But I think that is wrong. Give it to the guy who is undoubtedly the most outstanding player in the country... which was Fitz by a country mile that season.
 
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They will see it in the NFL.

My whole point is that this doesn't matter, it's just about what happened in college football this year. And nothing to do with who will be better at the next level. And nothing to do with who their team mates are, NFL or MLB or NBA or NHL MVP never goes to a great player kicking ass on a mediocre team either. It's almost always someone who benefits from a better surrounding cast, so Jason White, being in a system, on a contending team, is a legit way to be MVP. like in any sport.
 
Anyone here familiar with the Campbell award??

Formerly known as the Dratty Award, it is the "Academic Heisman" .....given to an exceptional student playing major college football.

Named after William Campbell....who played at Columbia and was from West Homestead. Many of you likely played football at Campbell Filed in Homestead / Munhall and never knew who it was named after.

BTW.....Mr Campbell lived up to his namesake trophy. After graduation from Columbia, Mr Campbell went on to found a little company called Intuit............
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Heisman_Trophy_winners

I think lately, it has gotten kind of screwed up, I mean it was supposed to be "Best College Football Player", and now it is "Best College Football Offensive Skill Player on a highly ranked, contending Power 5 Team", but still, the thing that makes the award so legit, is "Best College Football Player" they still award the thing based on the performance for the current year with no concern for "pro potential", If you look at the list, the GREAT THING about it, that proves the award is legit, is that so many of the winners are TOTAL BUSTS in the NFL, to me that say's it was awarded for the right reasons, how you did in college right now and not what you might do later.
The award loses credibility when ESPN and CBS are giving the award to a SEC player the 1st week of the season and when that player falters in a game they give it to another SEC player. Did anyone notice the numbers McCaffery put up?
 
One thing to keep in mind, just like "Being Champion has nothing to do with being Best Team", likewise, "best College Football player does not mean best athlete, or best NFL potential".
 
I agree with everyone's post the Heisman has definitely lost it's luster. If ESPN wouldn't be talking about it so much I really think it would go away. ESPN starts talking about it September I remember the LSU/Syracuse and the two announcers kept stating that Leonard Fournette was going to win it and in the end he wasn't even invited. Voting should take place at season end.
 
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I do think Henry will do well in the NFL. But I also think Conner, god willing, will also do very well in the NFL
 
They had an article on Scout where they talked to some of the Heisman voters to see what criteria they used to vote. One of the voters specifically said that they look at the team's record to see how the player's contributions helped them win. That sounds good on the surface, but that also makes it more a a team achievement award rather than the best indivisual player award. This is a big part of what I see as a problem with the Heisman voters.

UPDATE, Here is the actual quote: In my view it is key to look at more than just individual stats. I put a lot of weight on team success and how important each candidate is to that success. Also, how a guy performs in big games, and in clutch situations in those big games.

That quote pretty much eliminates anyone on a lesser team.
 
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Archie Griffin over Tony Dorsett, Ricky Bell or Chuck Muncie in pre-ESPN 1975 suggests there was a problem even before the Worldwide Leader's non-stop shilling.
 
I agree with this part of it, however, it should have nothing to do with how they might project to the NFL or anything to do with "potential"... If you have the best year, your team kicks ass, you pile up huge numbers, and every NFL scout agrees you are slow and weak and have a weak arm and that you will be a bust and not even drafted. You are still deserving of this award. It doesn't even have anything to do with who has the most talent, just who delivered in this one year.

Right, but if it's truly going to the best player, which is how it is marketed, shouldn't that occasionally translate to the NFL too - even if just by happenstance? The fact that it never seems to happen should answer your question about the award's legitimacy.

To just lazily base it on stats is a terrible disservice to the game because that is incredibly deceiving. So many stats are directly attributable to the offensive system your team/league employs. It is not remotely an apples-to-apples comparison. Incidentally, that's also why I pay no attention whatsoever to national rankings of total offense or defense. They just aren't really honest evals of what is actually happening out there and are therefore a useless measuring tool.

To flip the shoe on the other foot, if we went just by stats, I would have to conclude that the entire Big 12 conference doesn't have a single quality defensive player or coach because the scores of those games are so high relative to the national average. Well, we know that's untrue. It's a style thing. There are tons of great defensive players and coaches in that league. However, the style of the game there really stresses scoring lots and lots of points and that makes those defenses look worse than they actually are.

So, why can't people seem to reason that out? The defensive stats look so bad for the same reason that the offensive stats look so good. Neither is indicative of actual performance relative to their peers.
 
To me, the first overall pick in the NFL draft is MUCH more prestigious than the Heisman Trophy winner.
 
My point is the award should go to the best college football player – not the guy who is the best player on one of the best teams.

But Jason White isn't an example of that. The fact of the matter is that not only was Jason White not the best player in college football that season, he wasn't even the best player on his own team. Or even the second or third best. Might not have been in the top five. But he was the quarterback, and so he is the one that people who think that quarterbacks are obviously the best players on their team latched on to.

The notion that the original poster thinks that the Heisman is a legitimate award for the best player in college football reaffirms what everyone should have already known about his knowledge of the game.
 
I don't know what you mean by lately but AD won every award he was eligible for as a defensive player just a couple of years ago. He wasn't even invited to NY for the ceremony. The Heisman goes to the most famous offensive skill player on the most successful marquee team in the country. It's always been that way and it always will.
 
To me, the first overall pick in the NFL draft is MUCH more prestigious than the Heisman Trophy winner.

It's more lucrative, not more prestigious. Tim Tebow was an all time great, one of the best, kick ass COLLEGE QBs EVER, deserved the "BEST PLAYER" Heisman award big time. The fact that he never translated to pro football doesn't diminish his status as a COLLEGE great.
 
Do you still have his email address? Maybe in the next few years when Fitz is in the top 5 or higher all time receiving yards, touchdowns, etc, you can ask him how someone so bad, who played on such a bad team, in a bad conference, could do so well in the NFL. Maybe ask him if his election into the NFL Hall of Fame is a joke too.

That 2003 season was really a breaking point with me and the Heisman Trophy. I don't lend it much legitimacy of all. It is a lot like any of the other individual awards in college football. Good for the kid who wins it, but I don't care either way because it's so rarely goes to the actual best player.

I mean, I get that it is a college award given to the best player for that particular season. However, shouldn't it occasionally go to a guy who then goes on to star in the NFL? That never really happens anymore. Instead it almost always goes to a guy who is a good player on a team with an exceptionally large fan base.

There have been plenty of other head scratchers in the history of that award but that 2003 season seemed really hard to believe.

I understand that Jason White had a great season statistically and that Oklahoma was a very strong team. However, all one had to do was watch the kid play and you could see that he was clearly a product of the famous Air Raid system.

He had a limited arm and no mobility whatsoever. He was a poor man's Bernie Kozar.

Yes, he put up tremendous statistics. However, so too did every other quarterback who played in that system. I could name some of those luminaries if you like but what would be the point? It is not exactly an impressive list. Basically, everyone who played quarterback for Hal Mumme or any of his disciples during that era put up enormous numbers. Most people have never heard of any of them because none of them were any good.

Baylor is still running that system and no matter who they plug-in, that guy looks like the next Dan Marino.

I guess I just expected the voters to do some actual work. I wanted to see actual analysis and evaluation, not empty headed rote numbers crunching. A seven-year-old boy Who has never actually watched a single game in his life can do that.

I mean the word is supposed to go to the best player, right? If it is purely statistically driven, then I don't need to hear any of those folks' analysis because they really aren't doing any analysis anyway.

I mean, all you had to do was watch Jason White play for 10 minutes then flip over and watch Larry Fitzgerald play for 10 minutes. That basically should have done it for most people because it was not a remotely difficult choice. You didn't exactly need Chuck Noll's legendary eye for talent to quickly understand who was the better football player. However, you did need to actually watch each of them play.

It is long forgotten now but one of the most ironic things about that 2003 season was that the primary criticism of Fitzgerald was that HE was the product of the system, not White. That seems strange in retrospect but it is absolutely true.

Just before the vote, a writer for the Detroit Free Press, I cannot remember his name, wrote an article that appeared in USA Today that was very scathing towards Fitzgerald. It questioned his competition as well as his system. The guy wrote that former Michigan state wide receiver Charles Rodgers – does anyone even remember that guy? – was better than Fitzgerald and should've been given any awards over him. The thinking was that Rodgers was similarly athletic and he played against better competition in the Big Ten. Case closed.

I was incredulous and asked the man if he had ever actually seen Fitzgerald play in an actual game, not just highlights? Because I was seeing that guy play every single week and every single week he did something - and usually multiple times in the same game - that made me jump out of my seat.

His response, and I will never forget this admission, was that he covered college football for a living and did not have the time to sit down on his couch and watch Fitzgerald play.

However, he was well aware of Pitt's pass happy system and the fact that the Big East stunk. In fact, I think he used the word "SUCKED" and he spelled it in all caps so that I understood exactly how highly regarded the Big East was in his eyes.

Basically, he was saying that no Big East player could possibly be that good. That came as a surprise to me given the number of first round draft choices that league had been regularly churning out at that point - many of whom went on to become NFL stars and a few of whom have already been inducted or will one day be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

That was the mentality then and I'm sure it is still the mentality today for so many voters. I am sorry but that is illegitimate by every reasonable measure. Anyone who lends that type of system any sort of credibility is an imbecile.

He and I went back-and-forth through email (it was 2003 after all) a solid 10–15 times and he would not budge. As we went back-and-forth, and as I was (politely) kicking his ass with facts, he became frustrated with the discourse. He then went so far as to guarantee me that Larry Fitzgerald would be a bust in the NFL.

I wrote back to him that he had just disqualified himself from serious consideration as a football analyst because that was the dumbest opinion I had ever read in my life - especially given the fact that the man making that guarantee had already conceded that he had not actually seen the guy play.

He never responded and history has proven one of us correct. I will leave you to guess who that might be.

My point is the award should go to the best college football player – not the guy who is the best player on one of the best teams. More importantly, these days it tends to go to a guy who is the best player on one of the most popular teams. I just can't get with that.
 
It's more lucrative, not more prestigious. Tim Tebow was an all time great, one of the best, kick ass COLLEGE QBs EVER, deserved the "BEST PLAYER" Heisman award big time. The fact that he never translated to pro football doesn't diminish his status as a COLLEGE great.

System guy, nothing more.

I'm sorry but you cannot be considered one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time if you can't even throw the football. You just can't.

Good player, great kid.

Overrated player.
 
It has always been "best skill guy on best team" type of voting. I mean, in the spirit of the Heisman, this year I would think the Navy QB most exemplifies what a Heisman would be.

And you have "loaded years" versus really weak years. For example, 1996 when Danny Wuerffel won over Troy Davis, Jake Plummer and Orlando Pace.

But it always about the big name on the big school. Always. in 2000 Chris Weinke of FSU beat out Josh Huepel of Oklahoma. Number's 3 and 4 from that year and these two weren't close was LaDanian Thomlinson and Drew Brees.

We all talk about the Fitz slight, but I am shocked Pat White never was in the top 5 his Jr and Sr years.

But when you look back over the years, it was almost always a top skill guy from a top name brand type of team,

However, the Heisman to me, and I am guessing a lot of people, has gone the way of the title of Heavyweight Champion of the World nowadays.
 
System guy, nothing more.

I'm sorry but you cannot be considered one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time if you can't even throw the football. You just can't.

Good player, great kid.

Overrated player.

Disagree with this one. Tim could throw it okay for the college game. The timing and throwing into tight windows isn't quite as important as in the NFL game. What made him great in college is his ability to run the football, especially in short yardage situations. Time and time again, in short yardage situations, everyone knew Tim was running it and he was hardly ever denied. He was far better than Chris Leak or Jeff Driskel. He was more than just a system guy.
 
In the year Tebow won his Heisman, he completed 67% of his passes, 3286 yards with 32 TDs and 6 INTs, and had 23 rushing TDs with 895 yards rushing. You have to be a little more than a system guy to put up those types of numbers.
 
Right, but if it's truly going to the best player, which is how it is marketed, shouldn't that occasionally translate to the NFL too - even if just by happenstance? The fact that it never seems to happen should answer your question about the award's legitimacy.

.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but you are too hyperbolic with it never translating to NFL success.

Carson Palmer and Cam Newton are both MVP candidates this year.

Reggie Bush is a solid pro with a long career. Winston and Mariota both have potential and are too early to tell (though Winston looks legit). Ricky Williams, Eddie George, Charles Woodson all in the mid 90's. Sure, there are plenty of busts, but you can't act like every guy in the last 20 years is a bust.
 
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