Heron's dad on what the kid is looking for....

[thebadby2]

someone may have posted this a couple weeks ago when it came out, but it gives some insight into what these high level guard and wing recruits are looking for, and what we apparently don't have for them:

How does one whittle down a list that, in the case of Heron, could be endless?

"We will look for a style of play that will allow him to play in multiple spots," his father said. "Mustapha definitely wants to go away, but not to a specific region or conference, but to a good coach and to a specific style of play."

Bryan described that as a "man-to-man system, high screen-and-roll stuff."

Basically a NBA style of offense, something like Duke runs at the college level.

http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2015/05/04/sports/hoopzone/875446.txt

 

[pittizit]

Forget Pitt

 

[KiwiJeff]

Forget Pitt

Broken record.

 

[mvk112]

That's exactly what Pitt is. High screen and roll system on offense (especially during Wannamaker/Patterson years) and man to man defense. If he's looking to play in multiple spots, he can be primary creator like Wannamaker was and play spots 1-3.

Not saying he's going to wind up at Pitt, but it's what he's looking for.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

That style does describe Pitt in many ways.

 

[Ski11585]

I dont believe his dad because we have been told on this message board that recruits dont care about style of play.

Well, he and Diallo are headed to SJU, right? Since Mullin brought that ISU guy and it's going to be an NBA offense. And Slice!

Wait...

 

[thebadby2]

That's exactly what Pitt is. High screen and roll system on offense (especially during Wannamaker/Patterson years) and man to man defense. If he's looking to play in multiple spots, he can be primary creator like Wannamaker was and play spots 1-3.

Not saying he's going to wind up at Pitt, but it's what he's looking for.

I think Heron Sr. Is talking about man to

That's exactly what Pitt is. High screen and roll system on offense (especially during Wannamaker/Patterson years) and man to man defense. If he's looking to play in multiple spots, he can be primary creator like Wannamaker was and play spots 1-3.

Not saying he's going to wind up at Pitt, but it's what he's looking for.

Pretty sure Mr. H is talking about man to man, motion type offense-not man D. I'm sure he couldn't give a $hit what kind of D the team runs. That motion O allows for a lot more scoring freedom for guards and wings. Think Duke or Michigan. We run a much more structured half court offense, and when we've had the right people, it's been an inside-out, high-low post system: when we haven't had the right people, we get what we had last year.

 

[mvk112]

I think Heron Sr. Is talking about man to

Pretty sure Mr. H is talking about man to man, motion type offense-not man D. I'm sure he couldn't give a $hit what kind of D the team runs. That motion O allows for a lot more scoring freedom for guards and wings. Think Duke or Michigan. We run a much more structured half court offense, and when we've had the right people, it's been an inside-out, high-low post system: when we haven't had the right people, we get what we had last year.

They haven't been an inside-out offense since Aaron Gray. Even when they had Blair, they didn't run the offense through him, it was through Fields and Young. The offensive system isn't the problem, it's been a guard/wing dominated offense the whole time under Jamie Dixon. From Krauser to Fields/Young to Gibbs/Wannamaker to Patterson. The offense runs through the best guard/wing, and the primary action is the high or wing pick and roll.

That was the main issue when the offense bogged down this year... the offense needed to run through Artis and Young, but it's designed to be an offense where the guards need to dominate the ball and run pick/roll action. Without the right players to run the offense, it was very limited, and depended on mid-range jumpers for the most part.

The offense, when it has the right players (and it often hasn't) is a NBA style half court offense. Spacing, pick/roll action, get open 3's for primary 3pt shooter (whether it was Ramon, Gibbs, Patterson, etc), and crash the boards.

 

[Jeffburgh]

That's exactly what Pitt is. High screen and roll system on offense (especially during Wannamaker/Patterson years) and man to man defense. If he's looking to play in multiple spots, he can be primary creator like Wannamaker was and play spots 1-3.

Not saying he's going to wind up at Pitt, but it's what he's looking for.

Its exactly what they did with Wannamaker. The offense ran through him once it got into the halfcourt set a lot of the time, he looked to penetrate because he was not a strong/confident outside shooter. As noted, this is also what they did a lot with Lamar, who was a strong/confident outside shooter.

I have referred to Heron as a more talented Wannamker all along.

 

[thom67]

I think Heron Sr. Is talking about man to

Pretty sure Mr. H is talking about man to man, motion type offense-not man D. I'm sure he couldn't give a $hit what kind of D the team runs. That motion O allows for a lot more scoring freedom for guards and wings. Think Duke or Michigan. We run a much more structured half court offense, and when we've had the right people, it's been an inside-out, high-low post system: when we haven't had the right people, we get what we had last year.

Dixon runs basicly the same offense that Duke does. His problem is that he doesn't hav Duke's players. Some of you guys need to watch some basketball!

 

[OriginalEther]

What's funny about this from the naysayers is that, if Pitt doesn't run the type of offense he's looking for, then why in the hell did he commit to Pitt in the first place?

 

[thebadby2]

Its exactly what they did with Wannamaker. The offense ran through him once it got into the halfcourt set a lot of the time, he looked to penetrate because he was not a strong/confident outside shooter. As noted, this is also what they did a lot with Lamar, who was a strong/confident outside shooter.

I have referred to Heron as a more talented Wannamker all along.

Why don't you guys tell Mr. Heron that the Pitt offense is exactly what his son is looking for, because apparently he sees it differently. To read your two posts, we are doing the same thing philosophically as a Duke or Michigan. That isn't the case. We do not run a motion offense. Neither of those squads run their offense through one designated wing player as we have done with Lamar and Wanny. Both of those guys pretty much ran the offense from the high post spot. The ball would go into say Lamar at the high post, and he would (1) dump it down to the low post, (2) find the open shooter or cutter, (3) shoot the midrange shot if it;'s there, or (4) put the ball on the floor and drive it to the rim. Heron's dad said a "man to man" in the context of offense. That can mean a lot of different things--a 3 out 2 in like Duke, a 4 out like Michigan, etc. The sets we run are a lot less free flowing than that, not sure how that's even in dispute.

 

[thebadby2]

What's funny about this from the naysayers is that, if Pitt doesn't run the type of offense he's looking for, then why in the hell did he commit to Pitt in the first place?

Think maybe his dad's longtime close relationship with Slice might have had some small thing to do with that? He went to Pitt because Slice was there. Now that Slice is gone, Heron has de-committed and his dad is talking about looking for the right kind of offense for his son to play in, and describing something a bit different than what we do. Go figure. The way I read that article, I don't think the guy was just saying that to say it. More recently, those two teammates we are recruiting from Philly were talking about looking for a program with a particular type of offense, and the guard specifically referenced IU's 4-out offense. Kids want to go where they can score. Guards and wings like that motion offense. Why wouldn't they?

My only point in the first place is that it is starting to become apparent that some of the posters who have opined that recruits are basing their college choices on stye of offense were not barking up the wrong tree. I was not one of those posters, I didn't pay much mind to that argument. But we are getting some confirmation of that theory straight from the recruits' mouths, all of who happen to be perimeter scorers. Meanwhile, we can't land a scoring guard to save our lives. Pretty hard to dismiss those statements from the recruits as idle lip service from the players or negativity from the posters who are reporting it. It just might be that part of our recruiting struggles are because players don't like what JD does offensively at Pitt. Or you can just keep denying that we are having recruiting struggles in the first place, and keep telling yourselves that our offense is exactly what these guys are really looking for.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Sounds like the classic "which came first the chicken or the egg" argument to me--coupled with the typical B.S. from used car salesmen recruiters that distorts reality.

 

[OriginalEther]

Think maybe his dad's longtime close relationship with Slice might have had some small thing to do with that? He went to Pitt because Slice was there. Now that Slice is gone, Heron has de-committed and his dad is talking about looking for the right kind of offense for his son to play in, and describing something a bit different than what we do. Go figure. The way I read that article, I don't think the guy was just saying that to say it................. It just might be that part of our recruiting struggles are because players don't like what JD does offensively at Pitt. Or you can just keep denying that we are having recruiting struggles in the first place, and keep telling yourselves that our offense is exactly what these guys are really looking for.

So, he didn't like the offensive scheme, but he would have put up with it because of Slice?
Doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Why don't you guys tell Mr. Heron that the Pitt offense is exactly what his son is looking for, because apparently he sees it differently. To read your two posts, we are doing the same thing philosophically as a Duke or Michigan. That isn't the case. We do not run a motion offense. Neither of those squads run their offense through one designated wing player as we have done with Lamar and Wanny. Both of those guys pretty much ran the offense from the high post spot. The ball would go into say Lamar at the high post, and he would (1) dump it down to the low post, (2) find the open shooter or cutter, (3) shoot the midrange shot if it;'s there, or (4) put the ball on the floor and drive it to the rim. Heron's dad said a "man to man" in the context of offense. That can mean a lot of different things--a 3 out 2 in like Duke, a 4 out like Michigan, etc. The sets we run are a lot less free flowing than that, not sure how that's even in dispute.

You are now veering away from what you originally posted.

Bryan described that as a "man-to-man system, high screen-and-roll stuff."

This is EXACTLY what they did with Wanny and Lamar.

They aren't running "motion" offenses in the NBA, they almost literally run the fricken high screen and roll every god darned play.

He committed to Pitt because of Slice, that point has been beaten to death - and part of what I am sure was promised is that he would be featured on the screen and roll like Wanny and Lamar.

He didn't decommit because of style, he decommitted because he is a big time recruit and their primary connection to the kid left, leaving him vulnerable to the other sharks in the recruiting game.

 

[mvk112]

Why don't you guys tell Mr. Heron that the Pitt offense is exactly what his son is looking for, because apparently he sees it differently. To read your two posts, we are doing the same thing philosophically as a Duke or Michigan. That isn't the case. We do not run a motion offense. Neither of those squads run their offense through one designated wing player as we have done with Lamar and Wanny. Both of those guys pretty much ran the offense from the high post spot. The ball would go into say Lamar at the high post, and he would (1) dump it down to the low post, (2) find the open shooter or cutter, (3) shoot the midrange shot if it;'s there, or (4) put the ball on the floor and drive it to the rim. Heron's dad said a "man to man" in the context of offense. That can mean a lot of different things--a 3 out 2 in like Duke, a 4 out like Michigan, etc. The sets we run are a lot less free flowing than that, not sure how that's even in dispute.

Pitt runs a "man-to-man, high screen and roll stuff" offense. They ran it with Krauser, they ran it with Fields, they ran it with Wannamaker, they ran it with Patterson. They tried to run it with Robinson and Wright, they just weren't good enough, and their best offense was mid-range stuff with Artis and dumping it into Young (or mid-range from Young).

Pitt won big time with this offense, which is a NBA style offense (spacing, high/wing pick and roll, open shooters), with Gibbs/Wannamaker/Brown/Nas/McGhee. If they had a real four man that could hit some outside shots, play some defense, and rebound (even at a Levon Kendall level), and a third guard better than Woodall, that team would've been almost a lock to make the Final Four. They were pretty darn good (especially offensively) as it was.

There isn't much difference between what Pitt runs and what the Houston Rockets run, other than the talent on the floor, of course. Mustapha Heron could've been the James Harden (Wannamaker) role. Of course, they'd need a couple three point shooters to spread the floor effectively like Jason Terry and Trevor Ariza (Gibbs/Gil Brown) do.

It's a pretty common philosophy, Pitt runs it, they just didn't have the players to be effective this year. Seemed to be the same case in 2012 as well... nobody to initiate the action.

 

[Ski11585]

Sore loser??? You're the "Recruits dont care about style of play" king.

For someone who is so often wrong, you sure keep up your confidence. It's admirable.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Pitt's offense is pretty much the definition of a motion offense. The beauty of the motion is that it can change based on personnel and really no two motion offenses will look alike. It's a lot of reading how the defense reacts to a pass/cut/drive and then making your next move or action based on what the defense has done. It's why, IMO, they tend to do better with upperclassmen running the show. The cuts and actions are second nature and the execution is too fast and sharp for defenses to adequately defend it.

That said, I don't believe his father for a second -- even if it would be somewhat comforting when it comes to Pitt's hopes.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

Everybody has a style of play that they prefer ,but a good coach plays to his talent strengths. If Jamie would recuirt the next Pistol Pete that kid would score 40 wearing a Pitt uniform.

 

[JS School]

Did Mr. Heron mention his salary requirements?

 

[KiwiJeff]

And while there are many things to consider as you mentioned, style of play seems to be getting mentioned more and more and is being cited more for recruits. This is why I'm saying its moved to right near the top of the list of what recruits are looking for. We are at a disadvantage in this area but so are a lot of teams who play slow like us.

I always hear, "This place seems like family to me" and "I really liked the campus". Going of what kids say isn't very meaningful. I think you've said before we shouldn't always take what kids say at face value, like when Steven Adams left. Have you changed position on that? Now we believe them all the time?

Like I said above, I do think style matters for a lot of kids. Never said it wasn't in spite of you calling me the king of whatever. Pitt is probably at a disadvantage for many reasons.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I always hear, "This place seems like family to me" and "I really liked the campus". Going of what kids say isn't very meaningful. I think you've said before we shouldn't always take what kids say at face value, like when Steven Adams left. Have you changed position on that? Now we believe them all the time?

Like I said above, I do think style matters for a lot of kids. Never said it wasn't in spite of your trolling attempt of calling me the king of whatever. Pitt is probably at a disadvantage for many reasons.

Those quotes were also said by Heron when he committed.
He stayed committed for a year after Slice left Pitt.

Just like Rowan- he is getting whispered into his ear to be wined and dined. And that's fine...both are quality players who won't be left without a scholarship or roster spot where ever they decide to go. I'd like both to chose Pitt, but.. when the blue-blood programs are in the mix- that's a tough sell for Pitt.

 

[Ski11585]

And while there are many things to consider as you mentioned, style of play seems to be getting mentioned more and more and is being cited more for recruits. This is why I'm saying its moved to right near the top of the list of what recruits are looking for. We are at a disadvantage in this area but so are a lot of teams who play slow like us.

Has style of play really been mentioned that much more often? Style of play didn't help SJU or ISU land Diallo like you thought they would. And it isn't going to end up helping them land Heron. A ton of factors play a role in recruiting and style of play is just one part of it.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Those quotes were also said by Heron when he committed.
He stayed committed for a year after Slice left Pitt.

Just like Rowan- he is getting whispered into his ear to be wined and dined. And that's fine...both are quality players who won't be left without a scholarship or roster spot where ever they decide to go. I'd like both to chose Pitt, but.. when the blue-blood programs are in the mix- that's a tough sell for Pitt.

It is Souf, but my god, you have to win an occasional battle against "the blue bloods". Again, I never seen a fanbase so accepting of its lot in life. I don't quite understand that. And please, don't do what you guys usually do and try and flip the extreme, no one is saying Pitt has to recruit like Kentucky, but my god, other mid level programs can land a player against the blue bloods, all of a sudden Pitt can't.

 

[Ski11585]

It is Souf, but my god, you have to win an occasional battle against "the blue bloods". Again, I never seen a fanbase so accepting of its lot in life. I don't quite understand that. And please, don't do what you guys usually do and try and flip the extreme, no one is saying Pitt has to recruit like Kentucky, but my god, other mid level programs can land a player against the blue bloods, all of a sudden Pitt can't.

Pitt has won big recruiting battles. Granted they aren't as frequent as we'd all like. But fans always find reasons to dismiss those wins.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

It is Souf, but my god, you have to win an occasional battle against "the blue bloods". Again, I never seen a fanbase so accepting of its lot in life. I don't quite understand that. And please, don't do what you guys usually do and try and flip the extreme, no one is saying Pitt has to recruit like Kentucky, but my god, other mid level programs can land a player against the blue bloods, all of a sudden Pitt can't.

Some we have won, didn't work out either.
Dante, jj Moore, and khem most NNotably.

It's all a roll off the dice.

 

[Scruffy the Panther]

We beat out Florida for Young, and we also beat out Duke whenever Trey Zeigler was transferring. And sure I see what you mean about Pitt fans being so accepting of our fate...if you ignore the other half of Pitt fans who don't think like that.

 

[oldpantherfan]

Are some of you really pitt fan s? No matter what is said by whom, there are many here who always seem to find a way to put negative spin on it for pitt. Pitt chances are just as ood as anybody lses until he signs or says otherwise. Please stop with all that" he's gone". If dixon got herron and 5 other top five players some of you would say he is eithe rhe cause nobody wanted them or overated because he came to pitt. Dix was a good recruit (and so was wilson) til they signed no many say dix can't play. he's over weight, blah, blah and even find fult with wilson. Please go to PSU if thats all you (ever) have to say).