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The NCAA and the Freeh Report's failure was a "rush to judgment" as the Nitters like to claim. But for the wrong results. I believe with the Gran Jury Investigation, the Freeh Report, and obvious dotted i's and crossed t's that there was such a "gotcha" moment with Penn State and Paterno, that they went to Penn State with a "accept this or else" mentality and Penn State (Erickson) and the BOT at the time knew it and accepted their punishment and Paterno's removal.

What they didn't or failed to understand that this bucolic community and vast alumni was so insulated from reality that it essentially IS a cult. They didn't figure on the push back. They didn't figure that this school would hire a coach (James Franklin) that USC wouldn't touch. It was almost an F U. What they thought they were nailing Penn State football for, "the culture of football" was thrown back in their face and they ran and hid. The Freeh Report was flawed, but just because it was so obvious that they didn't dig deeper and longer.

The NCAA and Louis Freeh should have interviewed Paterno. Look at JoePa's GJ testimony, and other depositions, they weren't exactly admissions of innocence, there was definite guilt and shame. No one pressed him. No one really pressed outside of those existing victims "how big was this?" "who all knew?". Those would be powerful questions. Why? Because again, the NCAA figured wow, this is bad enough, and PSU initially cried "UNCLE" at the first levy of sanctions.

No one thought they needed further investigation, further punishment, the damage done, Jerry is in jail, then Joe died. The 3 stooges have been hiding behind what constitutes as "justice" in this country, no doubt if those 3 guys were poor black men, they would be in jail. Now, with these new allegations, does this shine more light onto the 3 stooges and their trials? There are a lot more questions. And in perfect timing, Jerry wants a new trial, and the Joebots are clamoring for their cult leader to be officially recognized. All in the same week. Unbelievable.
 
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I agree that the ncaa back off too soon. ups admitted guilt and the ncaa didn't want to drag all the kids
through the process. In hindsight the ncaa should have had a full blown investigation into the lack of institutional control exerted at ups. The investigation still might have been ongoing! That is where the ncaa made the mistake.

At least by now the Cleary Report on ups would have been published.
 
They need some real journalists aka "Spotlight" on this...look into everything...more people more manpower...oh and how about they figure out what happened with the missing DA Gricar? Cause right now nothing and I mean nothing seems "far fetched"....
 
They need some real journalists aka "Spotlight" on this...look into everything...more people more manpower...oh and how about they figure out what happened with the missing DA Gricar? Cause right now nothing and I mean nothing seems "far fetched"....


Hopefully the producers of Serial are looking for a big story. This one is perfect for that format. You'd have to think that with the success of Serial, The Jinx and Making a Murderer, that someone has this story on their radar screen.
 
Freeh was hired (and paid by PSU) to protect the university in many ways, which is why certain people were not interviewed and other normal investigatory processes not followed. At the end of the day the goal was to admit the low level stuff, negotiate with the NCAA, and try to move on while other past transgressions were swept under the rug. Get back to football ASAP.
 
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Freeh was hired (and paid by PSU) to protect the university in many ways, which is why certain people were not interviewed and other normal investigatory processes not followed. At the end of the day the goal was to admit the low level stuff, negotiate with the NCAA, and try to move on while other past transgressions were swept under the rug. Get back to football ASAP.

That's true. And again, considering how damaging and heinous this all was, none of them including those then in charge at PSU even thought that there would be this kind of backlash and vitriol to everyone but JoePa and Jerry Sandusky.

The fact is, the "reality" that they held onto for 40 years was all a façade.
 
PSU fans are not going to like us anymore if we keep talking about sandusky/paterno matters. we won't their friends. they'll block us from getting into the big 10. they'll stop playing us in football. they'll make fun of us on the internet-and we'll be sad. we'll have to go home and eat dirt.
 
I agree with you entirely, Rivals.

I would only add that this was not the NCAA versus Penn State. Rather, this was the NCAA and Penn State working as business partners.

For some reason the NCAA felt a tremendous amount of pressure to assert its authority here by punishing Penn State for the atrocities that occurred under Paterno's watch. However, the NCAA also knew that Penn State is one of the most profitable programs in the country and it serves no practical business purpose for the greater good to punish one of its primary breadwinners.

And that's not even getting into the complications it would cause the Big Ten – major college athletics' most important conference.

I think in the NCAA's eyes this compromise solution would allow both sides to save face – mostly. They would hammer Penn State and in time, Penn State would be welcomed back into the fold - tail between its legs but ahead of schedule.

So, I definitely agree that the NCAA went to Penn State's leadership and gave them with what amounted to a take it or leave it offer. However, I think they did so with at least the tacit understanding that if Penn State took its medicine now, in time, after this all blew over, the NCAA would restore their scholarships.

That is why Penn State's leadership was so quick to accept that offer and why did has always been so adamant in pointing out that the protestations of Lubrano and some of their other nuts has nothing to do with their official position as a university.

Of course we all know they are using these goofballs as a shield but that's how it goes.

I definitely agree that neither Penn State nor the NCAA anticipated just how crazy the Penn State intelligentsia would prove to be. I have said this before and I will say it again: the strangest thing about the Penn State fan base - and what is driving this entire deal - is that for some bizarre reason they have collectively opted to tie the perceived integrity of their former head football coach to their own personal integrity. Therefore, any criticism of Paterno - no matter how well founded - is on some level a personal insult to them.

I cannot tell you how incredibly strange a phenomenon that is but that is the central issue here.

That phenomenon - and the bizarre response it spawned in the wake of that school's child rape scandal - has been the fly in this entire ointment.

Had those people simply kept their mouths shut, as they should have, this all would've blown over by now. Also, the general public would be far more forgiving of Penn State as an institution and it's fan base as a collective as they would see them as victims in a terrible story.

However, humility is just not a part of the Penn State package and they cannot fathom a world in which they are not the moral compass, much less the story's villains. As a result they are going to get hammered…again - and they completely deserve it.

This story is going to get very ugly again and that is primarily because their fans will continue to be defiant and insular and completely clueless as to how they are perceived on the national level.

This is the situation that has long called for contrition, not open defiance and scorn for whoever fails to see what an honorable human being Joe Paterno always was and how he couldn't possibly be guilty of the things of which he is accused.
 
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I agree with you entirely, Rivals.

I would only add that this was not the NCAA versus Penn State. Rather, this was the NCAA and Penn State working as business partners.

For some reason the NCAA felt a tremendous amount of pressure to assert its authority here by punishing Penn State for the atrocities that occurred under Paterno's watch. However, the NCAA also knew that Penn State is one of the most profitable programs in the country and it serves no practical business purpose for the greater good to punish one of its primary breadwinners.

And that's not even getting into the complications it would cause the Big Ten – major college athletics' most important conference.

I think in the NCAA's eyes this compromise solution would allow both sides to save face – mostly. They would hammer Penn State and in time, Penn State would be welcomed back into the fold - tail between its legs but ahead of schedule.

So, I definitely agree that the NCAA went to Penn State's leadership and gave them with what amounted to a take it or leave it offer. However, I think they did so with at least the tacit understanding that if Penn State took its medicine now, in time, after this all blew over, the NCAA would restore their scholarships.

That is why Penn State's leadership was so quick to accept that offer and why did has always been so adamant in pointing out that the protestations of Lubrano and some of their other nuts has nothing to do with their official position as a university.

Of course we all know they are using these goofballs as a shield but that's how it goes.

I definitely agree that neither Penn State nor the NCAA anticipated just how crazy the Penn State intelligentsia would prove to be. I have said this before and I will say it again: the strangest thing about the Penn State fan base - and what is driving this entire deal - is that for some bizarre reason they have collectively opted to tie the perceived integrity of their former head football coach to their own personal integrity. Therefore, any criticism of Paterno - no matter how well founded - is on some level a personal insult to them.

I cannot tell you how incredibly strange a phenomenon that is but that is the central issue here.

That phenomenon - and the bizarre response it spawned in the wake of that school's child rape scandal - has been the fly in this entire ointment.

Had those people simply kept their mouths shut, as they should have, this all would've blown over by now. Also, the general public would be far more forgiving of Penn State as an institution and it's fan base as a collective as they would see them as victims in a terrible story.

However, humility is just not a part of the Penn State package and they cannot fathom a world in which they are not the moral compass, much less the story's villains. As a result they are going to get hammered…again - and they completely deserve it.

This story is going to get very ugly again and that is primarily because their fans will continue to be defiant and insular and completely clueless as to how they are perceived on the national level.

This is the situation that has long called for contrition, not open defiance and scorn for whoever fails to see what an honorable human being Joe Paterno always was and how he couldn't possibly be guilty of the things of which he is accused.

That's just it. The NCAA and others figured the nature and extent of this whole thing, would bring embarrassment which would yield contrition and humility. It didn't. It yielded defiance. It backfired. And it was too late and would look like it was unnecessary piling on, if the NCAA would go back and reopen the investigation.

Again, I posted some stuff in another thread, indicating how there was some outrage over how comfortable the PSU leadership and community seemed to be on well, Pedophilia, or at least deviancy from the top guy down. And this was in 2002! Many years before this all broke out. And the exasperation of one such legislature member who said "you can't touch Penn State" and "the legislature cares alot about Penn State football".

It is just so perverse. There are so many dots, and so easy to connect these dots, but no one has officially gone ahead to do this. I mean, we (Pitt fans) focus mostly on the Paterno angle, but it is bigger than that. A lot of people in some degree of authority had to know. At least know something, heard something, was relayed something, that when some of these "reports" happen such as the McQueary or even the initial 1998 investigation that was dismissed, immediate flags should have at least caused people to go to Defcon 2 as far as law enforcement is concerned.
 
I agree that the ncaa back off too soon. ups admitted guilt and the ncaa didn't want to drag all the kids
through the process. In hindsight the ncaa should have had a full blown investigation into the lack of institutional control exerted at ups. The investigation still might have been ongoing! That is where the ncaa made the mistake.

At least by now the Cleary Report on ups would have been published.

NCAA wanted nothing to do with it but there was enough noise so they did the most NCAA thing they could.
 
The NCAA and the Freeh Report's failure was a "rush to judgment" as the Nitters like to claim. But for the wrong results. I believe with the Gran Jury Investigation, the Freeh Report, and obvious dotted i's and crossed t's that there was such a "gotcha" moment with Penn State and Paterno, that they went to Penn State with a "accept this or else" mentality and Penn State (Erickson) and the BOT at the time knew it and accepted their punishment and Paterno's removal.

What they didn't or failed to understand that this bucolic community and vast alumni was so insulated from reality that it essentially IS a cult. They didn't figure on the push back. They didn't figure that this school would hire a coach (James Franklin) that USC wouldn't touch. It was almost an F U. What they thought they were nailing Penn State football for, "the culture of football" was thrown back in their face and they ran and hid. The Freeh Report was flawed, but just because it was so obvious that they didn't dig deeper and longer.

The NCAA and Louis Freeh should have interviewed Paterno. Look at JoePa's GJ testimony, and other depositions, they weren't exactly admissions of innocence, there was definite guilt and shame. No one pressed him. No one really pressed outside of those existing victims "how big was this?" "who all knew?". Those would be powerful questions. Why? Because again, the NCAA figured wow, this is bad enough, and PSU initially cried "UNCLE" at the first levy of sanctions.

No one thought they needed further investigation, further punishment, the damage done, Jerry is in jail, then Joe died. The 3 stooges have been hiding behind what constitutes as "justice" in this country, no doubt if those 3 guys were poor black men, they would be in jail. Now, with these new allegations, does this shine more light onto the 3 stooges and their trials? There are a lot more questions. And in perfect timing, Jerry wants a new trial, and the Joebots are clamoring for their cult leader to be officially recognized. All in the same week. Unbelievable.

I said at the time when all the nitters were whining and moaning about getting screwed that they should shut up and let this thing run it's course. It was obvious to many that this thing was like an iceberg with most of it still out of sight.

No, they had to keep pushing back when they should have let sleeping dogs lay. They could be in for another round if they can ever get the 3 stooges to trial.
 
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The NCAA and the Freeh Report's failure was a "rush to judgment" as the Nitters like to claim. But for the wrong results. I believe with the Gran Jury Investigation, the Freeh Report, and obvious dotted i's and crossed t's that there was such a "gotcha" moment with Penn State and Paterno, that they went to Penn State with a "accept this or else" mentality and Penn State (Erickson) and the BOT at the time knew it and accepted their punishment and Paterno's removal.

What they didn't or failed to understand that this bucolic community and vast alumni was so insulated from reality that it essentially IS a cult. They didn't figure on the push back. They didn't figure that this school would hire a coach (James Franklin) that USC wouldn't touch. It was almost an F U. What they thought they were nailing Penn State football for, "the culture of football" was thrown back in their face and they ran and hid. The Freeh Report was flawed, but just because it was so obvious that they didn't dig deeper and longer.

The NCAA and Louis Freeh should have interviewed Paterno. Look at JoePa's GJ testimony, and other depositions, they weren't exactly admissions of innocence, there was definite guilt and shame. No one pressed him. No one really pressed outside of those existing victims "how big was this?" "who all knew?". Those would be powerful questions. Why? Because again, the NCAA figured wow, this is bad enough, and PSU initially cried "UNCLE" at the first levy of sanctions.

No one thought they needed further investigation, further punishment, the damage done, Jerry is in jail, then Joe died. The 3 stooges have been hiding behind what constitutes as "justice" in this country, no doubt if those 3 guys were poor black men, they would be in jail. Now, with these new allegations, does this shine more light onto the 3 stooges and their trials? There are a lot more questions. And in perfect timing, Jerry wants a new trial, and the Joebots are clamoring for their cult leader to be officially recognized. All in the same week. Unbelievable.
The insurance carriers have millions at stake. They will follow the strategy of deposing lower level employees.
These folks won't lie. But they will be destroyed in the process.
It will take a dozen or so such depositions before the process stops and the parties settle.
PSU like all big organizations will feed the little people to the lions (pun intended). PSU will never allow the hierarchy to go under oath.
As for the 3 amigoes, PA is the most corrupt State in the Union. The judiciary is no exception.
Fresh didn't have the time or the subpoena power the carriers have.
 
I agree with you entirely, Rivals.

I would only add that this was not the NCAA versus Penn State. Rather, this was the NCAA and Penn State working as business partners.

For some reason the NCAA felt a tremendous amount of pressure to assert its authority here by punishing Penn State for the atrocities that occurred under Paterno's watch. However, the NCAA also knew that Penn State is one of the most profitable programs in the country and it serves no practical business purpose for the greater good to punish one of its primary breadwinners.

And that's not even getting into the complications it would cause the Big Ten – major college athletics' most important conference.

I think in the NCAA's eyes this compromise solution would allow both sides to save face – mostly. They would hammer Penn State and in time, Penn State would be welcomed back into the fold - tail between its legs but ahead of schedule.

So, I definitely agree that the NCAA went to Penn State's leadership and gave them with what amounted to a take it or leave it offer. However, I think they did so with at least the tacit understanding that if Penn State took its medicine now, in time, after this all blew over, the NCAA would restore their scholarships.

That is why Penn State's leadership was so quick to accept that offer and why did has always been so adamant in pointing out that the protestations of Lubrano and some of their other nuts has nothing to do with their official position as a university.

Of course we all know they are using these goofballs as a shield but that's how it goes.

I definitely agree that neither Penn State nor the NCAA anticipated just how crazy the Penn State intelligentsia would prove to be. I have said this before and I will say it again: the strangest thing about the Penn State fan base - and what is driving this entire deal - is that for some bizarre reason they have collectively opted to tie the perceived integrity of their former head football coach to their own personal integrity. Therefore, any criticism of Paterno - no matter how well founded - is on some level a personal insult to them.

I cannot tell you how incredibly strange a phenomenon that is but that is the central issue here.

That phenomenon - and the bizarre response it spawned in the wake of that school's child rape scandal - has been the fly in this entire ointment.

Had those people simply kept their mouths shut, as they should have, this all would've blown over by now. Also, the general public would be far more forgiving of Penn State as an institution and it's fan base as a collective as they would see them as victims in a terrible story.

However, humility is just not a part of the Penn State package and they cannot fathom a world in which they are not the moral compass, much less the story's villains. As a result they are going to get hammered…again - and they completely deserve it.

This story is going to get very ugly again and that is primarily because their fans will continue to be defiant and insular and completely clueless as to how they are perceived on the national level.

This is the situation that has long called for contrition, not open defiance and scorn for whoever fails to see what an honorable human being Joe Paterno always was and how he couldn't possibly be guilty of the things of which he is accused.

Agree with your premise. But I also think the NCAA was more concerned about the collateral damage to the B1G than about the nits themselves. I bet Jim Delany was very persuasive in presenting the case about how hammering the nits severely (like a TV ban) would've negatively impacted revenues for all the other B1G teams. What the NCAA did to the nits was more or less for "show". As far as any idea of the "death penalty", that was never really in play and will very likely never be used again as a form of punishment. At least for a P5 program. Too much $$$ and too many lawyers to deal with these days for that to be a consideration.
 
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Agree with your premise. But I also think the NCAA was more concerned about the collateral damage to the B1G than about the nits themselves. I bet Jim Delany was very persuasive in presenting the case about how hammering the nits severely (like a TV ban) would've negatively impacted revenues for all the other B1G teams. What the NCAA did to the nits was more or less for "show". As far as any idea of the "death penalty", that was never really in play and will very likely never be used again as a form of punishment. At least for a P5 program. Too much $$$ and too many lawyers to deal with these days for that to be a consideration.

Well said.
 
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