Icing a Non-Pressure Kick Logic?

[upj87]

Anyone else understand the logic of trying to ice a kicker when there is no pressure on him to begin with? No pressure at all on a 57 yard kick in that it is assumed it is probably not going to be made anyways. All the timeout does is give the kid a free practice kick and get a feel for things. Never understood why you don't give the impression you are going to call it an don't.....

 

[icu81222]

I think now that it has been shown to actually calm a kicker more often than not it is a narcissistic thing that drives coaches to call that time out. They can't help themselves and think they can control the outcome as they control most other outcomes in their lives. Just my opinion

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

It was definitely a rookie mistake by Narduzzi.

It became a glaring mistake whenever he got to do a practice kick. That's like giving it a good basketball shooter a practice shot. He will quickly find his range on the second attempt. That is exactly what happened last night.

I think it is a lot harder for a kid to come on and be relatively rushed and have to make the play initially. Hopefully Narduzzi learns from last night's gaffe.

 

[pittpitt]

The research shows that icing a kicker does not work; kickers hit a higher % of field goal attempts after the right-before-the-snap TO than when he's simply forced to kick it the first time.

That being said, it's such a pervasive strategy, wrong or not, that I hardly consider it a "mistake" for Narduzzi to do it. To me it's simply a new coach trying to do a "head coach thing." Unfortunately punting on 4th and inches from the opponent's 40 is another one of those things. The only first year coaches to use the research to go against conventional wisdom are ones who are majorly not conservative, guys like Chip Kelly or Les Miles.

I don't think that these two overly conservative decisions by Narduzzi indicate he'll end up being an overly conservative coach, simply that he's a first year coach not trying to buck conventional wisdom right out of the gate, which probably puts him among 90-95% of new coaches.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

That's a fair point.

I just think the amount out of information coaches now have at their fingertips is significantly more than they did in years past. Therefore, I do expect coaches to quickly learn on their feet and I expect them to use analytics to help guide those decisions.

The analytics all say that teams don't go for the first down nearly enough. They also say that teams are overwhelmingly likely to get the first down on fourth-and-inches.

When you factor in where we were on the field as well as the momentum of last night's game at the time, Narduzzi definitely needed to go for that first down.

I would guess that the analytics would also say that the odds of Winslow punting the ball into the end zone or where he ultimately did are much higher than the odds are that Pitt would have been stopped there.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not lighting any crosses to be placed in his front yard. Honestly, those two slightly questionable decisions aside, Narduzzi impressed me a lot last night. We played with great enthusiasm pretty good discipline. Those qualities will serve us well going forward.

However, he definitely made some tactical errors down the stretch and they both hurt our chances of winning the game.

 

[duke1363]

in hindsight, its easy to call out Narduzzi for a failed attempt to ice the kicker, but if it goes the other way, say he makes the kick after the time out and then misses the kick after play resumes, We're on here praising his call for the timeout. The guy made a 57yd it happens and it sucks when your on the pitt end of it. I have more questions other than the 2 questionable calls that are being discussed on the board. How about the 85 toss sweeps on 3rd and 2 or 1. I think this offense has the potential to be awesome, but im questioning the system that is in place. it looks like a weird mix of spread/pro style/ whatever. One thing that would make it better would be to pick a freaking line up and starter and STICK WITH IT. That being said, on to the next one. Go pitt

 

[Teh Teh]

Anyone else understand the logic of trying to ice a kicker when there is no pressure on him to begin with? No pressure at all on a 57 yard kick in that it is assumed it is probably not going to be made anyways. All the timeout does is give the kid a free practice kick and get a feel for things. Never understood why you don't give the impression you are going to call it an don't.....

Get real.. It was a pressure kick!!! The guys at home with 60,000 screaming fans with the game on the line! He becomes famous or not. Jeebus, the guy mad the kick, it was a 1% chance and he nailed it. He looked like he would have nailed the first one too. He pulled up and still nearly hit it.

The issue is icing at all or not period. Whether narduzzi made the right call or not is kinda a dumb point. It is not on narduzzi its on the Iowa kicker and the kid nailed it.

 

[icu81222]

It was definitely a rookie mistake by Narduzzi.

It became a glaring mistake whenever he got to do a practice kick. That's like giving it a good basketball shooter a practice shot. He will quickly find his range on the second attempt. That is exactly what happened last night.

I think it is a lot harder for a kid to come on and be relatively rushed and have to make the play initially. Hopefully Narduzzi learns from last night's gaffe.

Koehn said he heard the whistle and didn't swing full speed and just swiped it to get the feel. So his short kick was due to him not taking a full swing

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I believe him. I just wouldn't ever give any kicker - much less a good one - a practice kick. It's like giving a golfer a practice drive. It's just a really, really bad idea...as we all saw.

Now, he may have made it anyway. Who knows? However, should we find ourselves in this position again, I would prefer that the kicker have to make the play on the first take rather than giving him a practice swing.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

not that it makes you feel better, but his leg is ridiculous. that's too risky of a kick for ferentz with any kicker we've had since Kaeding, and koehn puts his leg to shame. kid is nails.

 

[upj87]

Get real.. It was a pressure kick!!! The guys at home with 60,000 screaming fans with the game on the line! He becomes famous or not. Jeebus, the guy mad the kick, it was a 1% chance and he nailed it. He looked like he would have nailed the first one too. He pulled up and still nearly hit it.

The issue is what I brought up...Icing kickers on non pressure borderline desperation kicks. Whether narduzzi made the right call or not is kinda a dumb point. It is not on narduzzi its on the Iowa kicker and the kid nailed it.

No, threwyes, because if he misses a 57 yarder, he is a goat? Don't think so. Think I got "real".... no pressure at a wing and a prayer kick 6 fans or 60,000....

Get real.. It was a pressure kick!!! The guys at home with 60,000 screaming fans with the game on the line! He becomes famous or not. Jeebus, the guy mad the kick, it was a 1% chance and he nailed it. He looked like he would have nailed the first one too. He pulled up and still nearly hit it.

The issue is icing at all or not period. Whether narduzzi made the right call or not is kinda a dumb point. It is not on narduzzi its on the Iowa kicker and the kid nailed it.

No, the issue here is whether or not icing a kicker on a desperation kick (see subject of post...that is the issue, my post, my issue....) makes sense. If a kicker misses this kick in front of 6 or 600,000 people no one blames him for anything ...No pressure, get it? You just gave credence to not icing him by mentioning the first kick. Thanks, as that makes my post seem less "dumb"....

 

[pittmeister]

EVERY head coach from college to pro's attempts to ice the kicker. Most times, it fails. But since Narduzzi did it, it's the dumbest move of all time!

 

[OriginalEther]

Get real.. It was a pressure kick!!!

Sort of. If he misses, the game just goes to overtime.
Little different when missing means you lose.

EVERY head coach from college to pro's attempts to ice the kicker. Most times, it fails. But since Narduzzi did it, it's the dumbest move of all time!

Well, mainly because evidence is showing that it doesn't work, and that it appears that he missed the first kick.

What I think also adds to the frustration here is that Pitt has recently lost 2 games to ranked teams - Notre Dame 2012, Duke 2014 - where all Pitt's kicker had to do was make a far shorter FG, but missed it.

 

[wbrpanther]

Anyone else understand the logic of trying to ice a kicker when there is no pressure on him to begin with? No pressure at all on a 57 yard kick in that it is assumed it is probably not going to be made anyways. All the timeout does is give the kid a free practice kick and get a feel for things. Never understood why you don't give the impression you are going to call it an don't.....

I don't think icing the kicker is good strategy in any situation anymore. When coaches first started doing this 30 or so years ago it was new and a different approach. i think it has become nothing more than a stupid idea that coaches do just because coaches are expected to do it. I am betting the kicker Saturday night would have been less prepared to kick if time out hadn't have been called. Kickers stand out there in tight situations now expecting the other coach to call time. Not calling it would be the surprise move now.

 

[old person]

I don't think icing the kicker is good strategy in any situation anymore. When coaches first started doing this 30 or so years ago it was new and a different approach. i think it has become nothing more than a stupid idea that coaches do just because coaches are expected to do it. I am betting the kicker Saturday night would have been less prepared to kick if time out hadn't have been called. Kickers stand out there in tight situations now expecting the other coach to call time. Not calling it would be the surprise move now.

According to his team mates he makes longer kicks all the time in practice and the one he hit was only stopped by the net-most of kicking is mental toughness you either have it or you don't

 

[daytonpanther]

Koehn said he heard the whistle and didn't swing full speed and just swiped it to get the feel. So his short kick was due to him not taking a full swing

^^^^This is the answer, Narduzzi's TO had no effect on game. ^^^^^ Anyone watching could see he let up after hearing whistle.

 

[wbrpanther]

^^^^This is the answer, Narduzzi's TO had no effect on game. ^^^^^ Anyone watching could see he let up after hearing whistle.

When legend becomes fact, print the legend. People NEED to blame someone for every thing that happens.

 

[thebadby2]

Anyone else understand the logic of trying to ice a kicker when there is no pressure on him to begin with? No pressure at all on a 57 yard kick in that it is assumed it is probably not going to be made anyways. All the timeout does is give the kid a free practice kick and get a feel for things. Never understood why you don't give the impression you are going to call it an don't.....

I doubt the Iowa kicker saw it as a non-pressure kick.

That said, I'm generally not a fan of icing the kicker. Executing a field goal involves so many moving parts, the less time the 11 guys on the field have pre-snap, the more likely it is for something to go wrong-particularly on a long one.

 

[The Loaded Italian]

I believe him. I just wouldn't ever give any kicker - much less a good one - a practice kick. It's like giving a golfer a practice drive. It's just a really, really bad idea...as we all saw.

Now, he may have made it anyway. Who knows? However, should we find ourselves in this position again, I would prefer that the kicker have to make the play on the first take rather than giving him a practice swing.

Well... I agree... next time I am SURE Narduzzi does not ice the guy... and next time it happens, the same 5 or 6 posters (not you) will be on here criticizing the call.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Following conventional wisdom... Rather than playing the odds...
Is a mistake.
End of discussion.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

^^^^This is the answer, Narduzzi's TO had no effect on game. ^^^^^ Anyone watching could see he let up after hearing whistle.

In other words... He hit a practice swing.
It was a mistake.
Move on.

 

[heybandguy]

Anyone else understand the logic of trying to ice a kicker when there is no pressure on him to begin with? No pressure at all on a 57 yard kick in that it is assumed it is probably not going to be made anyways. All the timeout does is give the kid a free practice kick and get a feel for things. Never understood why you don't give the impression you are going to call it an don't.....

EXACTLY. If you want to call the timeout, call it before they are anywhere close to the snap. He is a big-time kicker - but I would not give him essentially a "practice kick" by waiting to call the timeout that late.

 

[pittpitt]

Hold on - how "big time" is Iowa's kicker?

WalterFootball lists 7 potential NFL draftable kickers, but not Koehn (a senior).
CBSSports lists 14 top kicker prospects, but no Koehn.
NFLDraftScout lists Koehn as the #16 kicker prospect.
He had to walk on at Iowa (he's from Iowa) and was not one of the top-50 kicking prospects.

In 2014 and 2015, his only 2 years as a starter, he is 0-for-3 from 30-39 yards, 6-for-7 from 40-49, and 2-for-2 from 50+. He looked amazing on Saturday and we hear he's big-time, but is he actually an NFL kicker? Any Iowa fans still hanging around care to chime in on this kid's status as a "big timer"?

 

[icu81222]

Hold on - how "big time" is Iowa's kicker?

WalterFootball lists 7 potential NFL draftable kickers, but not Koehn (a senior).
CBSSports lists 14 top kicker prospects, but no Koehn.
NFLDraftScout lists Koehn as the #16 kicker prospect.
He had to walk on at Iowa (he's from Iowa) and was not one of the top-50 kicking prospects.

In 2014 and 2015, his only 2 years as a starter, he is 0-for-3 from 30-39 yards, 6-for-7 from 40-49, and 2-for-2 from 50+. He looked amazing on Saturday and we hear he's big-time, but is he actually an NFL kicker? Any Iowa fans still hanging around care to chime in on this kid's status as a "big timer"?

Most of Iowa's best kickers have been local walk ons. Well documented. Kaeding was to be a walk in but Iowa State offered him so it forced Iowa to offer.

Koehn struggled to start last year and then has been nails. Think he has made like 18-19 since then? Including 2 of the longest field goals in the Ferentz era. Both vs Pitt btw.

There has always been a ton of buzz about his leg strength. His holder said that Koehn regularly hits 70 yards in the indoor facility.

The kid is talented. See first 2 games where they used him to run fake punts. He is an athlete. He did the rugby punt to start the game vs Pitt Saturday.

Iowa punters struggled last 2 yrs so Koehn got in on the competition this past off season and would have won the job and done double duty had Dillon Kidd (dad was a long time NFL punter) not stepped up and improved enough that Koehn could focus solely on kicking.

Koehn was close to the national leader in touch backs last year too.

It was disappointing to not see him on some of the watch lists. But that is kind of a crap shoot.