JMI Sports... facility planning and financing

[Saboteur]

http://www.jmisports.com

If you go to JMIs website, you'll see two areas prominently displayed: facility financing and facility planning.
I think Heather just outsourced the job of getting sponsorship and planning to JMI. This is not only about media delivery.

 

[Chris Peak]

That should help with the mega-project they're planning for upper campus. Victory Heights, I believe is what they're calling it.

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

I'm guessing that's (victory heights) what HL is pestering Tepper about also.

 

[ratking17]

Victory heights stadium has to be what this leads to.

 

[pittchagg]

The rumor I saw was that the new indoor track/Olympic sports complex on the OC lot was supposed to start the bidding process in early 2019. Assuming that’s still close to accurate, it seems to be moving pretty quickly - the new student rec center on O’Hara is already out to bid, IIRC.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I'm guessing that's (victory heights) what HL is pestering Tepper about also.

Yes, because what this athletics program needs more than anything is an on-campus volleyball/wrestling arena.

 

[pittdan77]

Yes, because what this athletics program needs more than anything is an on-campus volleyball/wrestling arena.

Well, at least those are two programs that seem to have the right trajectory.

 

[pittjagger]

Yes, because what this athletics program needs more than anything is an on-campus volleyball/wrestling arena.

Interesting take here SMF. What would your top 5 priorities be for the athletic program if you had Mr Tepper’s ear?

 

[TIGER-PAUL]

Oh boy

 

[gbgpanther]

Oh boy

With most of the work 99 percent going building trades. They could delay the projects. A lot of work happening at one time.

 

[Las Panteras]

Yes, because what this athletics program needs more than anything is an on-campus volleyball/wrestling arena.

Well,

Since I am certain the Conference has demanded Pitt to become more than an annual doormat in every sport,

Yea, this is needed.

 

[gbgpanther]

Well,

Since I am certain the Conference has demanded Pitt to become more than an annual doormat in every sport,

Yea, this is needed.

It is needed we are at the bottom of the ACC we tend to overrate our program. Heather started at ground zero

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yes, because what this athletics program needs more than anything is an on-campus volleyball/wrestling arena.

I would argue that IS the top need for the athletic department. Pitt has finally taken care of the other sports with the Petersen Sports Complex. That was a really big deal!

This pretty much takes care of everyone else —except football. And no matter how you feel, football is not in the worst situation imaginable. It’s just not an optimal situation.

Study after study has shown that any athletics department’s most loyal donors are former student-athletes. That means that you have to do whatever you can to make sure that the student-athlete experience at Pitt is a positive one for everyone. That can’t happen if you’re playing in the worst facilities in the league (and we do) and you’re getting your ears beaten in every single week (and we were).

If you can improve the facilities and the amenities and the academic support, you will get better student-athletes, which in turn will make your teams more competitive. That will give them a better collegiate experience and when they are looking to donate years from now, they’re more likely to get back to the program.

Everyone wins!

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I think football is a whole different animal than the entire athletics department. It should almost be treated as an entirely different entity.

The only way I see an OCS ever happening again for Pitt is if someone like a Tepper or a small cadre of well-heeled donors would get together and donate a huge chunk of money to get it started. Otherwise, I just don’t think it’s going to happen.

I just think it’s hard to make the case that you need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on something that is only used six or seven Saturdays per year. It becomes a different story if someone else is willing to foot the majority of that bill.

Also, if they do build a new stadium, I think some infrastructural changes are going to have to accompany it. That could get very expensive and that money would have to come from the state.

That, to me, is the greatest potential hurdle to this entire thing – building some sort of extender from Bigelow to the upper campus or Panther Hollow, or wherever else they decide to put it.

They do need to start putting plans in place for it because Heinz Field is not going to last forever and you just don’t know what the Steelers plan to do? I can’t imagine that the Steelers would ever leave the North Shore because they have too much investment wrapped up around there. However, you just never know.

 

[ThePanthers]

We need to upgrade any and all facilities.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

We need to upgrade any and all facilities.

Oh, there’s no question that’s true.

As for the on campus football stadium, don’t get me wrong, we definitely need a smaller on campus stadium to reach our full potential. It’s just that type of project would be so complex and so involved that I think it has to be put on the back burner for now.

We are never going to reach our full potential at Heinz Field. It is just way too big for our needs and it requires transportation to get the student section there.

That’s a dealbreaker right there. There’s no way that can ever work over the long haul.

They need to make going to Pitt football games fun, not a holy day of obligation. Requiring a kid to get on a school bus, go to a game, then wait in line to get on another school bus to come home is not most college kids’ idea of fun — it’s just not.

I would love nothing more than to build a small-ish, intimate college football stadium in a part of Oakland that allows people to get there easily. We could call it the PNC Park or Wrigley Field of college football.

Would that change their behavior? Honestly, I have no idea? Maybe not? However, if you make your venue smaller, that has a real chance to create more energy, which is more fun. Full stadia are fun if you were 20 years old and they are also fun if you’re 10 or 70 years old.

Also, ticket scarcity would change the dynamic entirely. Suddenly, the ticket would have some real value because people would have to commit before the season. It wouldn’t be such a buyers’ market in the scalp game.

As long as we are at Heinz Field, I think we should be resigned to being the type of program we’ve been our entire time at Heinz Field — a mediocre program who’s attendance will be used against it in recruiting.

I just don’t see how we ever break this cycle? I know that upsets people but it’s true — which is probably why it upsets people. I just don’t see how we are ever going to come close to consistently filling up a 68,000 seat stadium? Honestly, the whole proposition seems patently absurd to me.

I am definitely pro OCS. I’m just also realistic enough to know that it’s going to be very difficult to make the case that we should spend that kind of money on it while letting other facilities suffer.

Also, if we are going to build a modern stadium, we have to accompany it with modern infrastructure, so that all of Oakland doesn’t become ensnared in a three hour traffic jam before and after every home Pitt game.

How do we do that? Honestly, I have no clue?However, that’s what planners are for and accounting for that reality must be part of any process or the entire exercise is nothing more than a big waste of time.

There are a lot of people saying we can never do this but those people are wrong. Of course we can do this! However, if you are going to do it, you have to do it right for it to work. That will require a real commitment on the part of a lot of parties that have never shown that kind of commitment to work together on behalf of the University.

 

[HailtoPitt]

I would argue that IS the top need for the athletic department. Pitt has finally taken care of the other sports with the Petersen Sports Complex. That was a really big deal!

This pretty much takes care of everyone else —except football. And no matter how you feel, football is not in the worst situation imaginable. It’s just not an optimal situation.

Study after study has shown that any athletics department’s most loyal donors are former student-athletes. That means that you have to do whatever you can to make sure that the student-athlete experience at Pitt is a positive one for everyone. That can’t happen if you’re playing in the worst facilities in the league (and we do) and you’re getting your ears beaten in every single week (and we were).

If you can improve the facilities and the amenities and the academic support, you will get better student-athletes, which in turn will make your teams more competitive. That will give them a better collegiate experience and when they are looking to donate years from now, they’re more likely to get back to the program.

Everyone wins!

Isn't volleyball and wrestling doing pretty well in their current facilities?

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yeah, they’re having a good year. I’m talking about building a sustainable program.

There is no reason for Pitt wrestling in particular to not to be a nationally prominent wrestling program.

None.

Yeah, they had a decent year this year. It’s much better than they had been doing, but it’s nothing special. I am telling you that given it’s location and the amount of high-end wrestlers in this area, Pitt should be to wrestling what say, Florida State is to football. They should always be in every conversation for the national championship.

However, can they do that they’re in their current facilities? Probably not.

However, if you give them a legitimate top end wrestling facility, there’s no reason why they can’t keep all these All-American wrestlers at home.

I watched a little bit of the national championship wrestling tournament and half the kids were from PA.

I understand that you can’t get them all and that Penn State has built a tremendous program. However, there’s no reason to lose so many local kid to so many schools that are not as good as Pitt, in places not as nice as Pittsburgh and located many hours away.

If you get a good coach and you have a state-of-the-art facility, of course these kids would rather wrestle in front of their friends, family and high school coaches than they would like to go away to Iowa or Virginia Tech or wherever.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I watched a little bit of the national championship wrestling tournament and half the kids were from PA.

I believe the numbers they quoted when I was watching some of it the other day was that there were 53 wrestlers in the tournament who went to high school in PA and 48 wrestlers combined from the two states with the next most wrestlers in the tournament.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yeah, that’s my point. The reason why all these studs are going all over the country to all these other programs is because we haven’t invested in our program. That needs to change and a really good wrestling facility will definitely help them do that.

There just aren’t many sports where I can realistically see them becoming a true national power and wrestling is one of them. They should embrace that opportunity.

 

[cbpitt2]

I think football is a whole different animal than the entire athletics department. It should almost be treated as an entirely different entity.

The only way I see an OCS ever happening again for Pitt is if someone like a Tepper or a small cadre of well-heeled donors would get together and donate a huge chunk of money to get it started. Otherwise, I just don’t think it’s going to happen.

I just think it’s hard to make the case that you need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on something that is only used six or seven Saturdays per year. It becomes a different story if someone else is willing to foot the majority of that bill.

Also, if they do build a new stadium, I think some infrastructural changes are going to have to accompany it. That could get very expensive and that money would have to come from the state.

That, to me, is the greatest potential hurdle to this entire thing – building some sort of extender from Bigelow to the upper campus or Panther Hollow, or wherever else they decide to put it.

They do need to start putting plans in place for it because Heinz Field is not going to last forever and you just don’t know what the Steelers plan to do? I can’t imagine that the Steelers would ever leave the North Shore because they have too much investment wrapped up around there. However, you just never know.

No one would ever built a stadium that would only be used six or seven Saturdays a year. It's a ridiculous notion to even think that, sheer folly. It would be used for soccer, lacrosse, etc. It would be designed to have classroom space, retail, athletic offices, weightlifting and training rooms, conference and meeting rooms, and I'm sure other uses as well and even hold concerts. High school football playoff games could be held there as well WPIAL soccer and lacrosse tournaments. With the athletic facilities, classroom and retail space, it would be used virtually 365 days a year.

Do you truly believe Notre Dame's stadium and Florida State's stadium is only used six or seven Saturdays a year?

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

We already have a soccer field — a really nice one. They can play soccer and lacrosse there. Those sports and the WPIAL, children’s birthday parties, Easter egg hunts, etc., will have no impact whatsoever on any decision to build an on campus stadium.

You are right they can use it more than just six or seven Saturdays per year. However, no matter what they do, it would not be used a ton because it doesn’t have to be.

If they decide to build this stadium, it will be for football. That’s why the only way I see it happening is with a huge lead gift that makes it a very low risk proposition for the university, the city, the state, etc.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

No one would ever built a stadium that would only be used six or seven Saturdays a year. It's a ridiculous notion to even think that, sheer folly. It would be used for soccer, lacrosse, etc. It would be designed to have classroom space, retail, athletic offices, weightlifting and training rooms, conference and meeting rooms, and I'm sure other uses as well and even hold concerts. High school football playoff games could be held there as well WPIAL soccer and lacrosse tournaments. With the athletic facilities, classroom and retail space, it would be used virtually 365 days a year.

Do you truly believe Notre Dame's stadium and Florida State's stadium is only used six or seven Saturdays a year?

Yes.....yes they are. The Big House? Same thing. Football stadiums are mostly bad investments, that is why in the late 60's, they came out with these ugly, cookie cutter, multipurpose stadiums to house football, baseball, concerts, truck pulls, etc. Three Rivers was one of these. However, they were boring as hell, sucked, especially for baseball.

 

[McKee Place]

They probably realize the ideal might be a campus stadium. But they are also likely thinking, if not outright hoping and wishing, that in the big picture of the sport of football doesn't have a long, certainly not a permanent shelf life. I think that's being seen slowly but surely in all areas, smaller numbers of kids playing every year. Pitt has always looked at it as a neanderthal thing that should go away and it appears slowly but surely the rest of society is heading that direction. Maybe not 10, or even 20 or 30 years, but they're looking that far out, especially in terms of how long a stadium would be expected to last and the huge footprint and cost to support it would mean.

Meanwhile the sport does has some worth in allowing Pitt to be in a large lucrative conference. So it's worth having, for now. But they've (cleverly, if they're right) positioned it in somebody ELSE'S stadium. So that when/if that time comes that the sport ends, they can just walk away easily.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Meanwhile the sport does has some worth in allowing Pitt to be in a large lucrative conference.

LOL!

Talk about an understatement. That’s like conceding that Michael Jordan’s basketball ability did play at least some role in allowing him to become a huge celebrity.

Football is precisely WHY Pitt is in a large lucrative conference and in fact why there are lucrative conferences at all. Without football, all of that goes away.

So, I hope and pray that’s not their thought process because that would be ridiculous. If that’s their thought process then all of these facilities are a huge waste of money because the revenue spigot that funds almost this entire enterprise is about to be turned off.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

They probably realize the ideal might be a campus stadium. But they are also likely thinking, if not outright hoping and wishing, that in the big picture of the sport of football doesn't have a long, certainly not a permanent shelf life. I think that's being seen slowly but surely in all areas, smaller numbers of kids playing every year. Pitt has always looked at it as a neanderthal thing that should go away and it appears slowly but surely the rest of society is heading that direction. Maybe not 10, or even 20 or 30 years, but they're looking that far out, especially in terms of how long a stadium would be expected to last and the huge footprint and cost to support it would mean.

Meanwhile the sport does has some worth in allowing Pitt to be in a large lucrative conference. So it's worth having, for now. But they've (cleverly, if they're right) positioned it in somebody ELSE'S stadium. So that when/if that time comes that the sport ends, they can just walk away easily.

I don't know if that is the intentional consequence that is prohibiting Pitt from going "all in" with football. Now as we are moving towards this, perhaps Pitt is in fact, ahead of the curve.

30 years ago, the title of "Heavyweight Champ" was the single, greatest title, and likely the most recognized athlete in the world. Now? As an avid sports fan, I couldn't even begin to name who that is. 30 years ago seems like a long time, but it was 1989, and to people my age, that ain't that long ago.

So that is a rope any organization with this sport has to walk. Are they building and spending money and resources that right now is dominant, but it may definitely have a shelf life.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

Isn't volleyball and wrestling doing pretty well in their current facilities?

I think you mean despite their current facilities.

 

[Ghost of Pitt Stadium]

Pitt could benefit from a multi-purpose venue. A facility that could be home to more than one program. Pitt could compete against Heinz and PPG for certain events and tournaments. A facility that can be used 365 days a year and produce multiple revenue streams. It would be more than just a home for sports (retail, office, academics). A symbol of pride and source of school spirit. Below is a link to a multi-purpose stadium in France. The usage possibilities and money making opportunities are endless.

https://binged.it/2FzfOGd

 

[Panther Parrothead]

Oh, there’s no question that’s true.

As for the on campus football stadium, don’t get me wrong, we definitely need a smaller on campus stadium to reach our full potential. It’s just that type of project would be so complex and so involved that I think it has to be put on the back burner for now.

We are never going to reach our full potential at Heinz Field. It is just way too big for our needs and it requires transportation to get the student section there.

That’s a dealbreaker right there. There’s no way that can ever work over the long haul.

They need to make going to Pitt football games fun, not a holy day of obligation. Requiring a kid to get on a school bus, go to a game, then wait in line to get on another school bus to come home is not most college kids’ idea of fun — it’s just not.

I would love nothing more than to build a small-ish, intimate college football stadium in a part of Oakland that allows people to get there easily. We could call it the PNC Park or Wrigley Field of college football.

Would that change their behavior? Honestly, I have no idea? Maybe not? However, if you make your venue smaller, that has a real chance to create more energy, which is more fun. Full stadia are fun if you were 20 years old and they are also fun if you’re 10 or 70 years old.

Also, ticket scarcity would change the dynamic entirely. Suddenly, the ticket would have some real value because people would have to commit before the season. It wouldn’t be such a buyers’ market in the scalp game.

As long as we are at Heinz Field, I think we should be resigned to being the type of program we’ve been our entire time at Heinz Field — a mediocre program who’s attendance will be used against it in recruiting.

I just don’t see how we ever break this cycle? I know that upsets people but it’s true — which is probably why it upsets people. I just don’t see how we are ever going to come close to consistently filling up a 68,000 seat stadium? Honestly, the whole proposition seems patently absurd to me.

I am definitely pro OCS. I’m just also realistic enough to know that it’s going to be very difficult to make the case that we should spend that kind of money on it while letting other facilities suffer.

Also, if we are going to build a modern stadium, we have to accompany it with modern infrastructure, so that all of Oakland doesn’t become ensnared in a three hour traffic jam before and after every home Pitt game.

How do we do that? Honestly, I have no clue?However, that’s what planners are for and accounting for that reality must be part of any process or the entire exercise is nothing more than a big waste of time.

There are a lot of people saying we can never do this but those people are wrong. Of course we can do this! However, if you are going to do it, you have to do it right for it to work. That will require a real commitment on the part of a lot of parties that have never shown that kind of commitment to work together on behalf of the University.

As long as attendance is an issue, the capacity of Heinz Field will always be a yoke around the neck of Pitt football.

As we’ve all mentioned ad nauseam, even when Pitt was vying for - and winning - a national championship, we didn’t regularly sellout Pitt Stadium. The population of Western PA was greater than it is today. If we didn’t consistently draw sellouts then, why should we expect to do it now?

Of course, we’d all love to have the solution - that being: an appropriate, Pitt-sized stadium. But until that happens, the yoke will remain.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

This would’ve made sense back in the mid 90s – before they built the Pete. However, it doesn’t make sense anymore.

Assuming they are able to build this new facility that would house wrestling, volleyball, indoor track and field, etc., Pitt doesn’t need that type of facility. All they need is a 40,000 seat outdoor stadium.

The trick is going to be finding the money and land necessary to do it. However, trying to dress it up with other uses is a fool’s errand because it’s obviously untrue.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Assuming they are able to build this new facility that would house wrestling, volleyball, indoor track and field, etc., Pitt doesn’t need that type of facility. All they need is a 40,000 seat outdoor stadium.

That's the thing about the argument that hey, when we build the new stadium it's going to include classroom space and a weight room and some retail locations and whatever else they might tack on. Yeah, it could have those things. But a stadium isn't necessary for any of those things. If you need classroom space you can build that a heck of a lot better and cheaper if you aren't trying to tack it on to a football stadium. You don't need a football stadium to open a Starbucks or a store selling University apparel.

The football stadium is the reason for the construction, everything else is simply fluff. And the fluff can be done better and cheaper without the stadium.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Pitt doesn't want to build a new stadium. They already get the same amount of ACC revenue whether they play in a new on campus stadium, play at Heinz, or play at Gateway Highschool. They simply don't care enough about football in order to compete with the big boys. Sadly, we are in for the typical Pitt season of 5-7 wins in most years, with the occasional shot at playing for the conference championship once every 10 years, and winning it once every 20-30 years. That's the program that Pitt is, until the administration decides otherwise.

 

[cbpitt2]

That's the thing about the argument that hey, when we build the new stadium it's going to include classroom space and a weight room and some retail locations and whatever else they might tack on. Yeah, it could have those things. But a stadium isn't necessary for any of those things. If you need classroom space you can build that a heck of a lot better and cheaper if you aren't trying to tack it on to a football stadium. You don't need a football stadium to open a Starbucks or a store selling University apparel.

The football stadium is the reason for the construction, everything else is simply fluff. And the fluff can be done better and cheaper without the stadium.

But it's a better utilization of space and space is at a premium in Oakland. Plus, it's an easier sell to the public. No one builds just a stadium just for the sport any more. Heinz Field has held soccer games, concerts, weddings, has offices, meeting rooms and suites that are used for functions and events. As has PNC Park.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

OK. Not to sound all Big Panther like. But.......Good people, Smart people, Trustworthy people are in serious examination and discussions about a right sized, on campus stadium (or at least near campus). I can't reveal sources but...

OK, in all seriousness, what I typed above is in fact occurring. I am not saying they are doing it, I am just saying due diligence is being performed.

 

[infinitehighway42]

OK. Not to sound all Big Panther like. But.......Good people, Smart people, Trustworthy people are in serious examination and discussions about a right sized, on campus stadium (or at least near campus). I can't reveal sources but...

OK, in all seriousness, what I typed above is in fact occurring. I am not saying they are doing it, I am just saying due diligence is being performed.

Honestly, any good athletic dept should be doing studies on that sort of thing pretty much constantly. And not just with a football stadium, but with all of their athletic facilities. The problem is, we haven't had a good athletic dept in a long time.

 

[McKee Place]

LOL!

Talk about an understatement. That’s like conceding that Michael Jordan’s basketball ability did play at least some role in allowing him to become a huge celebrity.

Football is precisely WHY Pitt is in a large lucrative conference and in fact why there are lucrative conferences at all. Without football, all of that goes away.

So, I hope and pray that’s not their thought process because that would be ridiculous. If that’s their thought process then all of these facilities are a huge waste of money because the revenue spigot that funds almost this entire enterprise is about to be turned off.

If football would end for Pitt, it would be ending for everyone else too. The money is too good for Pitt to end it unilaterally. Having it and stinking at it ... sure. Pitt's admin likely is proud of that (some who post here, too). But i'm referring to the long term future. Current times notwithstanding, the nation continues to soften, or become wise (however you choose to see it), and the game has a limited shelf life. That may be decades, but still is limited. The comparison that another made to boxing is apt.

I don't give Pitt much credit for purposely being ahead of the curve, by getting rid of a huge costly albatross for a sport that's looking tenuous for the long term. I think that the previous admin was stuck with a crumbling dump, for a sport it hates, and took a convenient cost effective (miraculous, really, given the timing) avenue that happened to arise for us, thanks to the local and state govt desire to find a way, any way, to give the Steelers and Pirates free stadiums and the Steelers a free practice facility. Pitt was a useful pawn. Right place, right time and Nordy and co. fortuitously nodded yes in agreement, and wisely held out for the hoops arena and not just for the use of Heinz and the SS facility (this is the part i give credit for; it would have been a good deal for Pitt even without the Pete; people forget how awful Pitt stadium had deteriorated, and how near death the football program was, and if not exactly willing to kill it, the admin had no intention to invest more in it).

It will be interesting to see, I'll likely be dead when it's totally done, but in the interim, as we writhe about in permanent mediocrity and crowds, sales and donations continue to dwindle, what football will do (and how long the ACC is willing to let us exist that way). I guess winning the Coastal by default now and then might save us.

 

[ThePanthers]

Honestly, any good athletic dept should be doing studies on that sort of thing pretty much constantly. And not just with a football stadium, but with all of their athletic facilities. The problem is, we haven't had a good athletic dept in a long time.

I think this leadership is on the right track.

 

[Delpanther]

No one would ever built a stadium that would only be used six or seven Saturdays a year. It's a ridiculous notion to even think that, sheer folly. It would be used for soccer, lacrosse, etc. It would be designed to have classroom space, retail, athletic offices, weightlifting and training rooms, conference and meeting rooms, and I'm sure other uses as well and even hold concerts. High school football playoff games could be held there as well WPIAL soccer and lacrosse tournaments. With the athletic facilities, classroom and retail space, it would be used virtually 365 days a year.

Do you truly believe Notre Dame's stadium and Florida State's stadium is only used six or seven Saturdays a year?

The only thing that’s ridiculous are the dunderheads who continuously downplay the importance of an on campus stadium. Keep your head in the sand. You think you’re smarter than 99% of the universities in the US who all have their own stadiums. You’re a dinosaur in the 21st century!5

 

[DiehardPanther]

There is a 0% chance college football ends. The UFC just signed a new contract with ESPN. People like to watch violent sports. Some just don’t want THEIR kids to play.

 

[HailtoPitt]

OK. Not to sound all Big Panther like. But.......Good people, Smart people, Trustworthy people are in serious examination and discussions about a right sized, on campus stadium (or at least near campus). I can't reveal sources but...

OK, in all seriousness, what I typed above is in fact occurring. I am not saying they are doing it, I am just saying due diligence is being performed.

If these people were good and trustworthy, they would have stepped in before the previous stadium's location was used up. It's really too late now. SP and Nordy doomed Pitt football to mediocrity forever.