Great post and the unintended consequence of NIL is that the big cheaters can now do it legally and out in the open.
Justin Champagnie
- Thread starter Joe the Panther Fan
- Start date
I agree with alot of what you said early in the post. The end results have pros and cons and alot of both.
I prefer payment to be upfront and out in the open. I don't come from a position of these players are broke and downtrodden. However I do believe in getting paid what your value and by principle I tend to believe in human freedom of movement.
All of that comes with the caveat that the NCAA could've permitted transparentNIL payments with reasonable regulations.
I liked the idea Barkely came up with to help remedy the biggest issues
Just out of curiosity, how did it enhance your appreciation and enjoyment of college sports when the people who were responsible for making the millions of dollars got none of it?
Some people think that the people responsible for making the money should share in that money. Other people just want to watch the proverbial dancing bear dance, and they don't give a crap about the bear as long as they are entertained.
Did it enhance your enjoyment of college football when Jordan Addison left Pitt for a bag of money and immediate eligibility?
Does your analysis also apply to the LSU women’s gymnast or the Miami basketball twins who are getting millions of dollars of NIL money just because they look fantastic in bikinis? Should they be paying a share of that money to their schools or teammates, since they play sports that actually operate at a substantial cost to their schools?
Your phony concern for the financial well-being of a few coddled, prima donna players is laughable, and your argument isn’t logical. The institutions that are receiving the money-primarily the universities and television conglomerates- still aren’t sharing it with the players. That has been left to unregulated private parties who don’t give a shit about or get any actual benefit from the name, image or likenesses of the select players they are paying. They can pick and choose who to give the money to and how much. That is creating widespread disparity in the sport, within the teams themselves, and within university athletic departments, far worse than it was in the cash handshake/brown paper bag days. Combined with unrestricted transfers, we have a developing mess. We’re only one full year in on this. Let’s see what it looks like in 3-5 years and if your working class hero non-sequitur holds up.
I get not liking it because it's messed up for many reasons. But the idea of this is better than what existed before this.
I'd rather improve on this then go back to what it was
It's good to know that my belief that the people who make the money should share in the money is phony, but your belief that you don't give a rat's arse about the people who make the money but don't get any of it is true.
I mean that doesn't really say what you seem to think that it does. But good for you for sticking up for a system designed to take money from the people who make it and give it to those who don't. Most people aren't as blunt about not giving a crap about the players, it's good to see that you think it's a virtue. I mean as long as the bear keeps entertaining you, who cares about the bear, right?
The schools aren't sharing with the players because they haven't been forced to yet. Rest assured, the day is coming when they will be forced to. And that will be another step in the improvement of the system. And all because the schools have fought doing what's right every step of the way. With support from folks like you.
I am all for pay for play. However, the NCAA has a rule against it. If they removed that rule, great. Allow boosters to hand money bags over without any fake NIL type "work." I'm good with that. But please dont call these booster payments NIL just so you can still call the players "amateurs." Everyone knows its pay for play.
The financial benefit that many D1 athletes received in the past was huge -- it was admission to some of the leading universities in the world that they otherwise would not have been admitted to, plus the tutors and other hand holding they receive to make sure they stay academically eligible and on track to receive a college degree. That degree increases their lifetime earnings dramatically.
The problem was that the D1 became the minor league system for the NFL and NBA, and the athletes spent minimal effort on their schoolwork with the hopes of getting drafted.
The problem was that the D1 became the minor league system for the NFL and NBA, and the athletes spent minimal effort on their schoolwork with the hopes of getting drafted.
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This is so true - he played basketball at Pitt in 2021, and is still only 21.
I think what fuels that perception too is that the program changed a lot in a short period. From really sucking…to having a some talent doing OK…to sucking with that talent…to having that talent leave…to really sucking again…to being pretty damn good.
That’s like 6 years of emotions in a little over 2 calendar years.
You’re right in the Ivy League and D2&3 ball , but not in big time D1 ball . The highest two positions at these universities are the FB and Bb coaches and that says it all !
Or walking into a stadium full of a hundred thousand people and people wearing your number and coming to see you and you barely have enough money to go eat out with your friends.
Paying people what they are worth is the least anyone should expect and
So if you go to work on Monday and your boss tells you that instead of paying you a salary commensurate with what you are worth that the company is going to pay your rent and train you in your job for the next four years you're going to say "sounds great, where do I sign up!"?
Seems unlikely.
So paying 15,000 in school and another 4-5,000 for living expenses is nothing. Plus, only about 10-15 schools get around 60,000 and up.
There's alot to change in this new way because they screwed it up but going back to under the table, making shit illegal that's happening anyways wasn't a solution either. It was worse.
Kids getting in trouble for the dumbest shit.
I'd prefer a transparent NIL pool with caps and regulations and violators to be strictly punished.
Let’s cap coaches salary then. 4K game. They can supplement by teaching courses at their college.
So you’re recognizing that athletes are paid. You’re just saying that their payment comes in the form of tuition and living expenses (which at Pitt is closer to $40,000 a year for a PA resident).
If we all recognize that athletes are compensated, then all we’re arguing about is how much they should be compensated, and the form that the compensation should come in.
$2,908,114: Mark Emmert, President
$1,697,971: Donald Remy, EVP
$1,372,706: Stanley Wilcox, EVP
$ 857,797: Brian Hainline, Chief Medical Officer
$ 698,960: Kathleen McNeely, SVP of Admin and CFO
$ 626,577: Joni Comstock, SVP
$ 615,057: Daniel Gavitt, SVP
$ 610,190: Katrice Albert, EVP
$ 555,158: Jonathan Duncan, VP
$ 551,039: Kevin Lennon, VP
$ 472,043: Robert Williams, SVP
$ 435,768: Scott Bearby, Managing Director
$ 406,857: David Schnase, VP
$ 400,814: Lynn Holzman, VP
$ 383,615: Theresa Gronau, VP
$ 364,325: Felica Martin, VP
$1,697,971: Donald Remy, EVP
$1,372,706: Stanley Wilcox, EVP
$ 857,797: Brian Hainline, Chief Medical Officer
$ 698,960: Kathleen McNeely, SVP of Admin and CFO
$ 626,577: Joni Comstock, SVP
$ 615,057: Daniel Gavitt, SVP
$ 610,190: Katrice Albert, EVP
$ 555,158: Jonathan Duncan, VP
$ 551,039: Kevin Lennon, VP
$ 472,043: Robert Williams, SVP
$ 435,768: Scott Bearby, Managing Director
$ 406,857: David Schnase, VP
$ 400,814: Lynn Holzman, VP
$ 383,615: Theresa Gronau, VP
$ 364,325: Felica Martin, VP
Add the coaches in and it's just like any out of balance worker to exec pay imbalances
Is job going to give me a high level MBA and/or allow me to get one and continue working on another degree, feed me the entire time in addition to rent, provide a living stipend and give me daily training in my field by some of the best people in the world? Am I also at the start of my career as opposed to a proven professional? How old am I? It is different if you are 20 or 40 or 55.
It is all relative. But, if you have not proven anything, are at the start of something and someone is willing to pay for your education for 4-5 years non-stop regardless of undergraduate or graduate school, house and feed you the entire time, give you a living stipend in addition and get top level job training over that 4-5 years, it becomes a much more interesting discussion.
I am completely fine with NIL though I think the schools should not be able to tamper like they have done. But, the players in CFB and CBB were not exactly on a bad deal before the NIL era.
They were making the schools millions, and getting something that cost the schools tens of thousands in exchange. That is pretty much by definition a bad deal.
If you want to argue that the average volleyball player or baseball player wasn't getting a bad deal, yeah, sure, I can agree with that. But if you want to argue that the people who were responsible for all the money that made it possible for the volleyball player and the baseball player to get a good deal but they weren't getting anything more than them had a good deal, well, we'll certainly disagree about that.
I would disagree and note that they were probably getting over $100K of value per year in return when you add education for the entire year, board for the entire year, food for the entire year, stipends for the entire year, the top level physical training and the actual coaching/practical training. It is not just two semesters like normal college kids. Normal college kids also even when on scholarship do not get access to training table (unlimited food with nutritionists and monitoring if wanted) and tons of one on one training for education, physical training and their desired vocation.
Also, an education is worth money over time that is apart from the present value. It has tremendous future value if utilized correctly, in the multiple millions over a lifetime.
And, considering that each kid on the roster gets this deal, including most guys that unfortunately and ultimately can be considered as very interchangeable, the deal is pretty solid for 98% of kids.
I do think that top guys were getting short changed due to not having NIL. But, once again, a top guy at a major college football program can make money for years on end afterwards as a personality due to the exposure provided by the school.
So, I mean ... I think your thoughts have a lot of holes in them. Also, you forget that the school puts up all of the money, all of the everything, of course they should get the bulk of the return. That is a very basic concept in life.
Yeah, but a lot of the money that the school puts up really don't cost them anything. As an example, when I was in school one of the electives I took was Psych 10, or whatever the introductory class was called back then. The starting center of the women's basketball team was also in my class. As were about 200 other kids. That athlete (and there may have been others) being in the class cost money on paper, but in reality there was no cost to the school for that person being in that class.
Now I would agree that all classes aren't like that, and that in some classes an athlete taking a spot is a spot that could have been "sold" to another student. Billy West taking engineering classes as an example that many on this board know of. But lets also remember that the athletes in football and men's basketball are almost universally steered away from the kinds of majors where they would run into that situation. And the reason that so many still remember that Billy West was taking engineering classes was because it was so rare.
So my thoughts might have a lot of holes in them, but the holes in your thoughts are so big that you can drive a truck through them.
I used to say the same thing. I even said it when I was at Pitt to the head of the department that I majored in.
He said back to me, that seat is someone that the school could put in the class and receive money from. The money itself is accounted for on real financial ledgers at the school. It may seem like a more speculative exercise, but the money is real (it does exist) and it does change hands (money moves across ledgers and people/services actually get paid). It could be deployed elsewhere for use.
I still left that discussion having the same feeling that you note above. As time has passed and I see exactly how real money is (basically, having run businesses or consulted on them), I have realized that the professor was 100% correct.
It is all real money, it all comes at cost and fortunately the scholarship football player receives the benefit. But, the school and really the students/alumni pay the cost. It is cost them and us (the alumni).
There are plenty of guys on the football roster that take real classes. Just because Walt Harris was a jerk to West does not mean that it is common. People remember West and the issues because West was a star RB.
People never talk about the guys that become doctors, dentists, businessmen, engineers, etc. It is because people virtue signal about players getting paid but no one outside of the players, their families and good coaching staffs really care at the end of the day. They do not care about the education and other things that are very real and matter greatly to people's lives.
Phil Jurkovec has a degree in economics, Shayne Simon has one in finance, Jake Kradel has one in finance, Blake Zubovic has one in accounting and enrolled in Katz for graduate school, etc. Plenty of guys on the football team have real degrees/educational paths that will be beneficial for them without football. Plenty of guys have had these things over time.
Price having a physical trainer for a year for 7 days a week a few hours a day, ordering Nutrition Solutions or ICON meal prep for each meal over a year, a personal basketball trainer you can see for at least 10 hours a week and the cost of room, board and books at Pitt for each semester throughout the year and get back at me remembering that the physical training, food and training is better and more costly than anything you can find on the street. We do not even need to price the clothing swag or talk about the status and clout on campus.
You have not pointed out any holes in my argument. If anything, you have exposed your argument for lacking substance, just more about the feeling that guys are getting cheated out of money without understanding anything about the actual money, where it comes from and what having year-long free education, training, food, etc really means.
I really respect your posts in general, but you are really off on this one in a way that illustrates a lack of understanding.
Hold on a second. The football and men's basketball teams at Pitt are responsible for bringing in tens of millions of dollars in revenue every year, and you think that because I don't account for the physical trainers for the team that I don't understand how this works? Seriously?
Pitt football and men's basketball, on a whole, run multi-million dollar surpluses every year. Literally, tens of millions of dollars. That nutritionist salary is being paid for from the money that the team makes. And so is the nutritionist that works with the wrestling team and the track team. And so are their trainers. And all of their other support personnel. Those sports make money AFTER you account for all of that, not just before you account for it.
But yeah, let's not forget about the swag that those guys get. You know, the stuff that the school gets for free as part of their deal with the shoe and apparel companies (or really, one specific company) to have their logos on the team's uniforms. That's all a part of what those players are bringing to the school, not the other way around. If there was no football team and no men's basketball team Nike would not be providing anyone at Pitt any free swag.
I respect your posts in general, but it's pretty clear here that you have no idea what you are talking about on this. Nearly ALL of the athletic department's revenue is derived from football and men's basketball in one form or another. Football and men's basketball do not even come close to spending all the money that they are responsible for bring in. Even if you use the accounting method of Pitt taking money out of it's right pocket and putting it in it's left pocket that much, not all, or even close to all, but much of the transfer of money for tuition really is.
