NBA Finals

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Ski, first off I want to let you know I watched every game, and most of the Conference Finals for the first time since the Bird/Doc J/Magic era of Celts/Sixers/Lakers. I was a huge Sixers fan and growing up, Doctor J was my favorite athlete over any sport.

I enjoyed the games, great drama. Those who don't think these teams play tough defense is insane. But emphasize on "tough". I almost found the games, no I did find them to be too physical. If Jay Bilas thinks college basketball is too physical, holy cow. This is football on the hardwood. I understand the size and speed and athleticism of these athletes just lends itself to these mammoth collisions, but sometimes, just like in those action films like Con Air or such, it is too much. Just too...well violent. LOL. And this is from a hockey fan.

I really enjoyed watching Steph Curry navigate through all of this. Any of us who played BB, he reminded me of the kid brother or younger neighborhood kid who would tag along on pickup games and can just outplay everyone.

Lebron was truly awesome, but (and this is not his fault) what I think most of us like basketball is the team aspect, and he had to do so much on his own, it was not aesthetically pleasing, despite being physically awe inspiring. It sucks for my Cleveland peeps that first KLove then Kyrie Irving went out...that almost wasn't fair.

One thing I did not like and would like the NBA to address via rule was the Hack a Iguadola in Game 5, which led to almost every Golden State possession to end up with him on the line.

 

[Ski11585]

Ski, first off I want to let you know I watched every game, and most of the Conference Finals for the first time since the Bird/Doc J/Magic era of Celts/Sixers/Lakers. I was a huge Sixers fan and growing up, Doctor J was my favorite athlete over any sport.

I enjoyed the games, great drama. Those who don't think these teams play tough defense is insane. But emphasize on "tough". I almost found the games, no I did find them to be too physical. If Jay Bilas thinks college basketball is too physical, holy cow. This is football on the hardwood. I understand the size and speed and athleticism of these athletes just lends itself to these mammoth collisions, but sometimes, just like in those action films like Con Air or such, it is too much. Just too...well violent. LOL. And this is from a hockey fan.

I really enjoyed watching Steph Curry navigate through all of this. Any of us who played BB, he reminded me of the kid brother or younger neighborhood kid who would tag along on pickup games and can just outplay everyone.

Lebron was truly awesome, but (and this is not his fault) what I think most of us like basketball is the team aspect, and he had to do so much on his own, it was not aesthetically pleasing, despite being physically awe inspiring. It sucks for my Cleveland peeps that first KLove then Kyrie Irving went out...that almost wasn't fair.

One thing I did not like and would like the NBA to address via rule was the Hack a Iguadola in Game 5, which led to almost every Golden State possession to end up with him on the line.

All in all, I don't think the NBA could have asked for a better finals (save a game 7 OT or something along those lines). For the most part, 5 or 6 games were competitive. LeBron put up absurd numbers. Curry played well down the stretch. His family got a lot of TV time so it helps boost the NBA's image. On that note, I don't think there's a league that has more marketable stars than the NBA.

I think it's funny that LeBron gets so much praise for how he played. Yes, he was great. But he was sooooo inefficient. But that's what the narrative wants: a guy who will take tons and tons of shots.

I hate to play "what if," but if the Cavs are healthy, I think they win the title.

 

[Zaratoughda]

Yo RRTB... yeah, I was a big Sixer fan during that time also though I couldn't get that many games where I was living (mid-Hudson valley NY). I am sure you remember the 'fist' game which was a game 7 against the Celtics in the garden. Everyone had given up on the Sixers for dead and another choke job... weren't even giving them a chance... and they went up there and took them. Because everyone didn't give the Sixers a chance in that one I made a point of watching it from beginning to end and once it was clear the Sixers were gonna win.. Billy Cunningham went to the scorers table, checked the time, and then shook his fist at the rafters and that was an absolutely amazing moment. Was going through some posters at a store not long after that and they had Billy and that very moment.

And then of course the Celtic fans broke into 'Beat LA, Beat LA', but then there was Magic Johnson paying C for the Lakers and another disappointment but they got that championship in the end sweeping the Lakers off the court.

Yeah, those were the good old days!

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I hate to play "what if," but if the Cavs are healthy, I think they win the title.

Which is one of the reasons that the Cavs and not the Warriors are the early favorite for next season's title. If they were fully healthy this year they would have been tough to beat.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Yo RRTB... yeah, I was a big Sixer fan during that time also though I couldn't get that many games where I was living (mid-Hudson valley NY). I am sure you remember the 'fist' game which was a game 7 against the Celtics in the garden. Everyone had given up on the Sixers for dead and another choke job... weren't even giving them a chance... and they went up there and took them. Because everyone didn't give the Sixers a chance in that one I made a point of watching it from beginning to end and once it was clear the Sixers were gonna win.. Billy Cunningham went to the scorers table, checked the time, and then shook his fist at the rafters and that was an absolutely amazing moment. Was going through some posters at a store not long after that and they had Billy and that very moment.

And then of course the Celtic fans broke into 'Beat LA, Beat LA', but then there was Magic Johnson paying C for the Lakers and another disappointment but they got that championship in the end sweeping the Lakers off the court.

Yeah, those were the good old days!

Not arguing that Lebron is great, maybe the greatest. Same with MJ. But when Kareem had migraines, a 20 year old rookie Magic Johnson played C for the Lakers in the finals against the Celtics and that game went for 40 points and 17 rebounds. Any "alltime" greatest player list, Earvin Magic Johnson belongs in the discussion.

 

[mvk112]

All in all, I don't think the NBA could have asked for a better finals (save a game 7 OT or something along those lines). For the most part, 5 or 6 games were competitive. LeBron put up absurd numbers. Curry played well down the stretch. His family got a lot of TV time so it helps boost the NBA's image. On that note, I don't think there's a league that has more marketable stars than the NBA.

I think it's funny that LeBron gets so much praise for how he played. Yes, he was great. But he was sooooo inefficient. But that's what the narrative wants: a guy who will take tons and tons of shots.

I hate to play "what if," but if the Cavs are healthy, I think they win the title.

The guy just put up the best numbers in NBA Finals history, playing with guys that would've been tanking for Karl Towns without him. He dragged these guys to within 2 wins of an NBA Title.

When LeBron wasn't on the court, here are the shooting stats of his guards -

JR Smith - 0/9
Matt Dellavedova - 0/7
James Jones - 0/3
Iman Shumpert - 0/2

Total - 0/21

Anyone who criticizes LeBron James for how he played doesn't know anything about basketball, to be blunt.

 

[Zaratoughda]

In the last game LBJ scored 32 points and had a whopping 18 rebounds. But, he also put up 20 misses and that meant a shooting percentage of under 40%.

Not knocking it but IMO MJ was better playing as part of a team... not that LBJ is bad but IMO MJ was better.

And yes, when you talk about the 'greatest player ever', Magic has GOT to be in that discussion.

(And then there was the year where Oscar Robertson averaged a triple double... for the SEASON. And Chamberlain playing every minute of every game for an entire season.)

Uh, I gotta agree that the Cavaliers will be the favorites for the championship next season with their OTHER two stars back. But, the thing about the Warriors is they were a bit raw in the playoffs and come next year they will have the experience... and that may even things up.

I am really happy to see Iguadola get a championship ring. Was totally underrated as a player with the Sixers and had to endure various weird coaches and the like. Put in 25 that last game at a .450 clip. IMO, he really deserved that ring.

 

[mvk112]

Michael Jordan never sniffed a Finals with teammates as bad as what LBJ played with those last five games. James averaged almost 37 points, plus about 8 assists per game (with teammates such as JR Smith, Iman Shumpert, Matt Dellavedova, etc.).

Jordan had a top 50 all time NBA player alongside him for all 6 titles in Scottie Pippen. He also had very good PF's both runs as well, in Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman. In his two Cavs finals, LeBron James had guys like Booby Gibson, Drew Gooden, Damon Jones, JR Smith, Matt Dellavedova, Iman Shumpert, etc.

If Love and Irving were healthy, the Cavs probably win that series in 5 games. LBJ was that entire team on the offensive end, there were no other options. To worry about his efficiency when he was the only one out on the court able to either create or put the ball in the hoop is silly.

 

[Ski11585]

The guy just put up the best numbers in NBA Finals history, playing with guys that would've been tanking for Karl Towns without him. He dragged these guys to within 2 wins of an NBA Title.

When LeBron wasn't on the court, here are the shooting stats of his guards -

JR Smith - 0/9
Matt Dellavedova - 0/7
James Jones - 0/3
Iman Shumpert - 0/2

Total - 0/21

Anyone who criticizes LeBron James for how he played doesn't know anything about basketball, to be blunt.

I'm not criticizing LeBron. I'm laughing at the narrative that gets pushed by sports talking heads. They praise Kobe and MJ and D-Wade for their willingness to take "THE SHOT" and shoe "CLUTCH GENE" and all those other tropes. They love LeBron this year because he did that. And yes, he played great. But if you look at the advanced stats, no way is this the best he's played from an efficiency standpoint.

 

[mvk112]

I'm not criticizing LeBron. I'm laughing at the narrative that gets pushed by sports talking heads. They praise Kobe and MJ and D-Wade for their willingness to take "THE SHOT" and shoe "CLUTCH GENE" and all those other tropes. They love LeBron this year because he did that. And yes, he played great. But if you look at the advanced stats, no way is this the best he's played from an efficiency standpoint.

It's hard to be "efficient" when you're playing with the guys he was playing with. No other creators or scorers. It was solely on him every trip down the court. Led both teams in points, rebounds, and assists. Tristan Thompson and Timofey Mozgov were more "efficient" than LBJ was during this series on the offensive end... that tells you all you need to know about efficiency in basketball.

 

[Gregory25]

It was hard to watch Lebron miss so many shots, especially a lot of shots from short range and at the rim but I do agree with what Jeff Van Gundy said during one of the broadcasts. Lebron's strength works against him in the eyes of referees. It seems the face of the league should get more calls when there is contact against him. Having said that, he still should have finished more shots than he did during the series.

 

[ameoba defense]

Not arguing that Lebron is great, maybe the greatest. Same with MJ. But when Kareem had migraines, a 20 year old rookie Magic Johnson played C for the Lakers in the finals against the Celtics and that game went for 40 points and 17 rebounds. Any "alltime" greatest player list, Earvin Magic Johnson belongs in the discussion.

Migraines? What are you talking about? Kareem injured his ankle in game 5, a game in which he scored 40 points, and was truly dominant. The ankle stiffened, and he couldn't go. The Lakers had Norm Nixon, who was an all star level point guard, starting in the backcourt with Magic. This is what allowed them to move Magic to the center position for this game. If they had had to go with some scrub at the point, they would never have been able to move magic. Speaking of Nixon, the trade the Lakers made after getting swept by Philly, of Nixon for Byron Scott is an interesting example of a trade that hurt early, but paid off in the long run. That trade may have cost the Lakers the title in 1984, as Scott wasn't anywhere near the player Nixon was at that point, and they missed the flexibility that Nixon gave them with regard to moving Magic around, but there's no way the Lakers win in 87, and 88 without Scott.

 

[ameoba defense]

Michael Jordan never sniffed a Finals with teammates as bad as what LBJ played with those last five games.

This is true, but Jordan had to go through the Larry Bird Boston teams, and the Sixers were a powerhouse during Jordan's early years. When they dropped off, Detroit took their place. LeBron has never had teams like that blocking his path to the Finals.

 

[mvk112]

The Sixers were never a factor once the Bulls got rolling in the very late 80's, early 90's. And they never went through the Celtics at all, Bird was a shell of his healthy self by the time the Bulls were ready to take over anyway. They did beat the Pistons once at the tail end of their run. Other than the Pistons, their main competition in the East was a Cavs team with Price, Daugherty, & Nance. Good, but never really a threat. Later it was those Knicks teams that couldn't put the ball in the bucket.

This Warriors team, by any statistical analysis/measure, was a great team... amongst the best of all time. LBJ dragged a cast of Knicks castoffs and end of bench guys to within two wins of the title against them. I don't care what he shot, the entire load was on his shoulders, & the entire focus of the Warriors defense (and they're a really good defew team) was on him. And he still averaged 36 points and 9 assists, to go along with 11 rebounds or whatever it was. He's so good, the guy who "held" him to those numbers was named MVP (it should've been LeBron).

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Migraines? What are you talking about? Kareem injured his ankle in game 5, a game in which he scored 40 points, and was truly dominant. The ankle stiffened, and he couldn't go. The Lakers had Norm Nixon, who was an all star level point guard, starting in the backcourt with Magic. This is what allowed them to move Magic to the center position for this game. If they had had to go with some scrub at the point, they would never have been able to move magic. Speaking of Nixon, the trade the Lakers made after getting swept by Philly, of Nixon for Byron Scott is an interesting example of a trade that hurt early, but paid off in the long run. That trade may have cost the Lakers the title in 1984, as Scott wasn't anywhere near the player Nixon was at that point, and they missed the flexibility that Nixon gave them with regard to moving Magic around, but there's no way the Lakers win in 87, and 88 without Scott.

What is your point?

 

[Zaratoughda]

Here'e one for ya...

The worst awesome performance in NBA Finals History.

A key stat... 11-46 when defended by Iguodala.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/06/lebron-james-had-the-worst-awesome-performance-in-nba-finals-history

 

[ameoba defense]

The Sixers were never a factor once the Bulls got rolling in the very late 80's, early 90's. And they never went through the Celtics at all, Bird was a shell of his healthy self by the time the Bulls were ready to take over anyway. They did beat the Pistons once at the tail end of their run. Other than the Pistons, their main competition in the East was a Cavs team with Price, Daugherty, & Nance. Good, but never really a threat. Later it was those Knicks teams that couldn't put the ball in the bucket.

That's the point. You said Jordan never sniffed a Finals with bad teammates. Well, during the period when Jordan had bad teammates, the East was full of juggernauts. The Bulls were never going to get past those three teams with Jordan, and a bunch of garbage. They had to build that team up. By the time they did that, the Sixers were long gone, the Celtics were fading badly, and Detroit, and LA were sliding. The point I'm making is that during the time when the Bulls were basically a one man show, they had no prayer of going anywhere in the playoffs. The competition LeBron has faced in the East, is similar to what Jordan faced AFTER the Sixers, Celtics, and Pistons declined. If LeBron had faced the type of competition in the East that Jordan did in the 80's, the Cavs would still be looking for their first Finals appearance.

 

[ameoba defense]

What is your point?

My point is that Kareem didn't miss that game because of any headache. He missed it because he suffered a severe ankle injury in Game 5. It's not that big a deal, but when people post bs as though it's fact, it's subject to be corrected by people who know better.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Jordan's Bulls rag-tag team of 1986-87 would have won two games, possibly three, versus this Warriors team. Jordan would have averaged close to 50 points a game in the series and Oakley would have controlled the paint being the bad a$$ that he was.

FYI, in Game 6 of 1980, Magic went for 42-15-7, but Jamal Wilkes scored the quietest 37 points ever in a title-clinching game.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Jordan's Bulls rag-tag team of 1986-87 would have won two games, possibly three, versus this Warriors team

No offense, but that's insane. That Bulls team ended the season under .500 and got swept in the first round of the playoffs. This year's Warriors team had an all time great season. The Warriors squash that Bulls team. Jordan might have averaged 50, but it wouldn't have been anywhere near enough.

Warriors in four. Maybe even three.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

No offense, but that's insane. That Bulls team ended the season under .500 and got swept in the first round of the playoffs. This year's Warriors team had an all time great season. The Warriors squash that Bulls team. Jordan might have averaged 50, but it wouldn't have been anywhere near enough.

Warriors in four. Maybe even three.

No way. Competition in the 1980s was far superior. I'm still wondering how these Warriors won so many games.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Well, if you can't figure out how the Warriors won so many games then I guess it's no surprise you think competition in the 80s was "far superior". In fact, the level of play in the NBA right now is vastly superior to what it was 30 years ago. It's not even close. Just look at all the good foreign players in the league now, almost none of whom would have been in the league 30 years ago. The talent pool that the NBA draws from is so much deeper and better now than it was then.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Well, if you can't figure out how the Warriors won so many games then I guess it's no surprise you think competition in the 80s was "far superior". In fact, the level of play in the NBA right now is vastly superior to what it was 30 years ago. It's not even close. Just look at all the good foreign players in the league now, almost none of whom would have been in the league 30 years ago. The talent pool that the NBA draws from is so much deeper and better now than it was then.

I dunno about that. For one, draftees coming in were much more mature and better prepared. They weren't all projections. And you had some decent players from Europe coming in the late 80's, Marchulinas, Sabonis, Kukoc, Petrovic (spelling on all these please)...but they were terrific players, in many cases, superior to a lot of the Euros now.

 

[mvk112]

That Bulls team would get swept by Golden State, just like they got swept by the Celtics. They had Jordan and that's it. Oakley did have what was probably his best ever season, but after that, you had guys like John Paxon, Dave Corzine, and Brad Sellers logging big minutes. I don't see how any rational basketball fan can believe that Chicago team would compete with this Warriors team.

This Golden State team rates as one of the best NBA teams of all time, by pretty much any metric or ranking system you want to use, other than "Nostalgic Remembrances and Overrating of the 80's NBA."

 

[mvk112]

I dunno about that. For one, draftees coming in were much more mature and better prepared. They weren't all projections. And you had some decent players from Europe coming in the late 80's, Marchulinas, Sabonis, Kukoc, Petrovic (spelling on all these please)...but they were terrific players, in many cases, superior to a lot of the Euros now.

I'll put guys like LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, Pierce, Ray Allen, Steph Curry, Wade, Dwight Howard, Carmelo, Blake Griffin, Westrbook, Chris Paul, Parker, Nash, Gasol (both of them), etc. up against those guys in the 80's any day. That list of superstars is right on par with the guys in the 80's.

Yeah, I'd take Magic over Paul or Westbrook, and Jordan over Kobe, but the rest are tossups... Hakeem or Duncan? Bird or LeBron? Barkley or Garnett? Ewing or Dwight? Mullin or Ray Allen? Isiah or Curry? Stockton or Nash? Dennis Johnson or Tony Parker? Malone or Dirk? Worthy or Pierce?

The competition over the past 5-7 years is as good as its ever been in the NBA. There have been four teams in that time that have ranked up with any of the best of the 80's - the Warriors, the Heat (w/ LeBron/Wade/Bosh), the Spurs (Duncan/Parker/Ginobili years), and the Celtics (Allen/Pierce/Garnett teams).

 

[UPitt129]

If the regular season was like those finals, I would love the nba. Unfortunately, there is not nearly the intensity on defense during the regular season as there is in the finals and accordingly the regular season in the nba is total garbage.

 

[mvk112]

If the regular season was like those finals, I would love the nba. Unfortunately, there is not nearly the intensity on defense during the regular season as there is in the finals and accordingly the regular season in the nba is total garbage.

I'm guessing you didn't watch much regular season NBA action. It's just a regurgitated myth that teams don't play defense or don't play hard. Completely untrue and a shame that uninformed people use that as an excuse to bash the league.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

No defense played in the NBA is the biggest myth in the sport, just ahead of “Portland needed a center heading into the 1984 draft.”

 

[UPitt129]

I've seen enough regular season games to know it looked nothing like those finals. Sorry, but the regular season nba product is garbage.

 

[mvk112]

I've seen enough regular season games to know it looked nothing like those finals. Sorry, but the regular season nba product is garbage.

I'm sorry, anyone who watches this Pitt basketball team play on a regular basis that call the NBA product garbage is out of their mind. And I'm as big of a fan of Pitt basketball as anyone.

Highest level athletes in the world, and 99% of them are supremely skilled. Much of the time what is mistaken for no defense is actually great offense. These guys just don't miss open shots. In college, you can get away with leaving guys open from time to time, it's typically a 50/50 chance he'll miss anyway. You leave a NBA player open, that shot is going in 80% of the time.

If there was no defense played in the NBA, Sam Young would still be in the league, and DeJuan Blair would be getting 20+ minutes per night. Neither can defend, so Young is playing overseas and Blair sat at the end of the Wizards bench all season.

 

[Ski11585]

I've seen enough regular season games to know it looked nothing like those finals. Sorry, but the regular season nba product is garbage.

You must not watch very much. And if the NBA product is garbage, how in the hell can you stomach 99.9% of college basketball games?

Do not confuse amazing offense with no defense. The same thing happens in college. Most college kids are mediocre offensive talents and folks mistake that for "tough d!"

 

[Scruffy the Panther]

You must not watch very much. And if the NBA product is garbage, how in the hell can you stomach 99.9% of college basketball games?

Do not confuse amazing offense with no defense. The same thing happens in college. Most college kids are mediocre offensive talents and folks mistake that for "tough d!"

I'd also note that the average NBA regular season game isn't usually between the two best teams in the league. The average NCAA regular season game honestly isn't better than a regular season NBA game, and this is from someone who almost never watches the NBA games. Watching the best in the world make shots is better than watching a couple of college teams trade bricks for a couple hours if you don't care about the outcome either way.

And if you hate watching teams not play defense, you must have vomited all over yourself watching Pitt this past season.