New CTE study results

[RaleighPittFan]

"CTE was diagnosed in 177 former players or nearly 90 percent of brains studied. That includes 110 of 111 brains from former NFL players; 48 of 53 college players; nine of 14 semi-professional players, seven of eight Canadian Football league players and three of 14 high school players. The disease was not found in brains from two younger players."

"In the new report, McKee and colleagues found the most severe disease in former professional players; mild disease was found in all three former high school players diagnosed with the disease. Brain bank researchers previously reported that the earliest known evidence of CTE was found in a high school athlete who played football and other sports who died at age 18. He was not included in the current report.

The average age of death among all players studied was 66. There were 18 suicides among the 177 diagnosed."

https://apnews.com/81ad97d058a04be3...seen-in-most-football-players-in-large-report

 

[KanePA]

"CTE was diagnosed in 177 former players or nearly 90 percent of brains studied. That includes 110 of 111 brains from former NFL players; 48 of 53 college players; nine of 14 semi-professional players, seven of eight Canadian Football league players and three of 14 high school players. The disease was not found in brains from two younger players."

"In the new report, McKee and colleagues found the most severe disease in former professional players; mild disease was found in all three former high school players diagnosed with the disease. Brain bank researchers previously reported that the earliest known evidence of CTE was found in a high school athlete who played football and other sports who died at age 18. He was not included in the current report.

The average age of death among all players studied was 66. There were 18 suicides among the 177 diagnosed."

https://apnews.com/81ad97d058a04be3...seen-in-most-football-players-in-large-report

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24412888/

Furthermore, the tau protein accumulation in the brains of former players diagnosed with CTE is present in nearly every single individual diagnosed with any neurological disease.

http://m.jbc.org/content/274/53/37507.full

I'm not saying CTE doesn't exist, I'm saying the science is unclear. Also, skeptical minds must also question the following:

-Why 111? That seems like a very odd number to quote in a published medical study.

-110/111 is suggestive that nearly every single NFL player will develop CTE, clearly that is not the case.

- There were an estimated 35.4 million cases of dementia (A reported symptom) in 2010, with estimates jumping to a staggering 115 million cases by 2050. That's just 1 of many neurodegenerative diseases and nearly all of them are caused by something other than CTE.

-The timing of the release of the study. A week before most teams report to camps? Seems off to me.

 

[RaleighPittFan]

-Why 111? That seems like a very odd number to quote in a published medical study.

The number studied is the number of donated brains from dead football players. Are you suggesting that some donated brains be left out of the study?

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Football should do everything it can to protect the players short of moving to flag football which might be just down the road!
Just an occupational hazard.
Lots of people have to work under risk of injury or death.
If its not a risk someone wants to take pick another line of work.
Hopefully these studies are monitored to be sure the results are accurate and that there's no hidden agenda's.

Researchers, politicians, media people, and other "hucksters" can creat a lifetime career if they overstate or intentionally misinterpret study results just like another topic that gets kicked around these days.

It's odd that you dont hear of alot high profile players except for Matt Millen?? ( announcers/tv analysts), running into these issues, just run of the mill guys?

 

[VAPITTALUM]

With energy absorbing helmets not developed until the 1970s, most of the players included in this study (with an average age of 66) likely started playing football in an age where helmets were nothing more than a plastic shell with very little padding. That's assuming the majority of the subjects starting playing in the 60s.

Although players are now bigger, stronger, and in most cases faster than the athletes in the 60s, I have to believe the technology of the equipment, early diagnosis of concussions, and precautionary measures being taken will have a dramatic effect in reducing CTE in football players.

That aside, these numbers are staggering if taken at face value.

 

[KanePA]

-Why 111? That seems like a very odd number to quote in a published medical study.

The number studied is the number of donated brains from dead football players. Are you suggesting that some donated brains be left out of the study?

I didn't know that there was only 111 donated. That seems small to me. Regardless, my bigger point is that donors were donated for a reason. They probably exemplified symptoms of neurological disease. But, whos to say that wasn't just part of a normal disease process? 34 million Americans suffer with dementia, a symptom of CTE. If pathologists and neurologists are using unusually high numbers of tau proteins and Lewy bodies to determine CTE, then the case can be made everyone who has a neurodegenerative disease has CTE.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Are some of you going to bring a snowball to congress?

 

[RaleighPittFan]

I didn't know that there was only 111 donated. That seems small to me. Regardless, my bigger point is that donors were donated for a reason. They probably exemplified symptoms of neurological disease. But, whos to say that wasn't just part of a normal disease process? 34 million Americans suffer with dementia, a symptom of CTE. If pathologists and neurologists are using unusually high numbers of tau proteins and Lewy bodies to determine CTE, then the case can be made everyone who has a neurodegenerative disease has CTE.

There's no doubt, the brains were donated for a very specific reason. They even had a 10% suicide rate.

I have no idea if the study was flawed or not.

 

[h2p_5150]

There is definitely a sampling bias in that the only brains that were donated were from relatives of guys who had shown signs of CTE. In any case, the results are alarming.

 

[pittdan77]

The study is not flawed. The study accurately describes the study group and acknowledges that there is selection bias due to the nature of sample collection.

Some facts that stand out:

• Both a punter and a kicker were confirmed to have CTE.
• Linemen represent over half of the survey (more of them on the field?)
• Three high school players (20% of the HS sample) had CTE
• Every single sample in the survey had damage but not all CTE

You'll hear a lot of reasons why this study is wrong but it wasn't conceived to decisively prove anything other than much more research is needed.

Side note, "local" star and recent retiree, Andrew Hawkins from Johnstown, just announced that he is donating his brain to the study. He just graduated from Colombia University with a degree in sports management. No dummy. If you want to know more, here is a link to the Concussion Legacy Foundation.

 

[pittdan77]

With energy absorbing helmets not developed until the 1970s, most of the players included in this study (with an average age of 66) likely started playing football in an age where helmets were nothing more than a plastic shell with very little padding. That's assuming the majority of the subjects starting playing in the 60s.

Although players are now bigger, stronger, and in most cases faster than the athletes in the 60s, I have to believe the technology of the equipment, early diagnosis of concussions, and precautionary measures being taken will have a dramatic effect in reducing CTE in football players.

That aside, these numbers are staggering if taken at face value.

Equipment and technique have all improved. Nobody will deny that. But the game isn't scripted and brains move inside the skull so no level of padding will ever be able to mitigate the effect of sudden deceleration.

 

[pittdan77]

Are some of you going to bring a snowball to congress?

You point and laugh at cancer patients? Because that's pretty much what you just did there.

 

[Franb]

There is definitely a sampling bias in that the only brains that were donated were from relatives of guys who had shown signs of CTE. In any case, the results are alarming.

"The report doesn’t confirm that the condition is common in all football players; it reflects high occurrence in samples at a Boston brain bank that studies CTE. Many donors or their families contributed because of the players’ repeated concussions and troubling symptoms before they died."

This study is not a based on a sample - there is no bias. It confirms the existence of CTE in the brains that were studied.

 

[Franb]

You point and laugh at cancer patients? Because that's pretty much what you just did there.

I think that the reference is to the Senator who brought a snowball to the Senate as "proof" that global warming did not exist.

 

[HailtoPitt]

You point and laugh at cancer patients? Because that's pretty much what you just did there.

Say what?

 

[RaleighPittFan]

The study is not flawed. The study accurately describes the study group and acknowledges that there is selection bias due to the nature of sample collection.

Some facts that stand out:

• Both a punter and a kicker were confirmed to have CTE.
• Linemen represent over half of the survey (more of them on the field?)
• Three high school players (20% of the HS sample) had CTE
• Every single sample in the survey had damage but not all CTE

You'll hear a lot of reasons why this study is wrong but it wasn't conceived to decisively prove anything other than much more research is needed.

Side note, "local" star and recent retiree, Andrew Hawkins from Johnstown, just announced that he is donating his brain to the study. He just graduated from Colombia University with a degree in sports management. No dummy. If you want to know more, here is a link to the Concussion Legacy Foundation.

Does anyone know if Tony Dorsett will donate his brain?

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Does anyone know if Tony Dorsett will donate his brain?

I was hoping Matt Millen would step up and donate his. Or maybe it has been donated which would explain his behavior?

 

[HailtoPitt]

I was hoping Matt Millen would step up and donate his. Or maybe it has been donated which would explain his behavior?

I figured something was wrong when he kept drafting WRs in the first round, and never drafting any OLs to support his top pick QB and WR picks. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the result would be.

 

[EaseJesus]

Football is a violent sport, however these guys are paid far more than the average American will earn in a lifetime. For the vast majority of these players this was/is their ticket out of poverty. It is a trade off and you must accept the risk with the reward. If they told me at age 21, we will pay you 50-100 million but you will likely die prematurely, I would take that deal. Steve Jobs, Reginald Lewis and other great business minds died of cancer, does this mean there is a correlation between being a billionaire CEO and cancer? Not trying to be a smart ass, but it begs the question.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I would like to see the study of this versus a similar number of non football playing persons. That would give much more enlightenment on to the extent of CTE being specific to this activity, or if the fact that throughout a life, many different types of activities contribute to CTE.

Still.....they keep on spending more on more on stadiums and tv contracts on football, where it seems contrary to the fact that less and less people are playing the sport because of the health risks.

One other thing......and I know this sounds really callous, but we all got to die sometime, of something.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Why don't players wear the Mark Kelso foam padding on the helmet? I wonder how he is doing these days from using it?

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Here's the problem for football.

A lot of the information surrounding these studies is covered in the national and local news.
Are these studies accurate and worthy of prime time coverage?

In Eastern PA youth football programs are suffering bigtime!
Youth programs in Eastern PA are flag from 5 -7 and tackle football with only the best equipment from 8 and up organized by age and weight. I was the President of a youth football organization in the 90's and even at that time only the best helmuts ( replaced every 3 yrs) with air suspension were used.

Eastern PA has had in influx or new residents from North and Central NJ and NY where youth football ranks second to soccer.

Many parents hearing the results of these studies and talking to some of the "alarmist" new residents are not letting their kids begin youth football and many are pulling their kids from the football programs and entering them in youth soccer programs.

I doubt Western PA is seeing much of this since there's a different mindset in WPA and their outside influences are Ohio and West Virginia where football is king.

Without healthy youth feeder football programs HS, and college programs will be impacted down the road!

 

[KanePA]

There's no doubt, the brains were donated for a very specific reason. They even had a 10% suicide rate.

I have no idea if the study was flawed or not.

Please don't get me confused. I don't believe the study was flawed. I believe the diagnosis of CTE is flawed. Until more research is conducted, there's nothing to say definitively that football is the cause of CTE. Hell, there's a debate currently on if Lou Gehrig even had the disease in his name! Advanced Lyme Disease mimics ALS perfectly and often misdiagnosed as ALS. I have a feeling no answers about CTE are coming until we grasp a full understanding of why otherwise perfectly healthy people get neurodegenerative disease.

 

[HailtoPitt]

Please don't get me confused. I don't believe the study was flawed. I believe the diagnosis of CTE is flawed. Until more research is conducted, there's nothing to say definitively that football is the cause of CTE. Hell, there's a debate currently on if Lou Gehrig even had the disease in his name! Advanced Lyme Disease mimics ALS perfectly and often misdiagnosed as ALS. I have a feeling no answers about CTE are coming until we grasp a full understanding of why otherwise perfectly healthy people get neurodegenerative disease.

People can always claim that there isn't enough evidence for things as a justification and all the research in the world won't satisy some, but it's common sense that getting hit hard in the head over and over again during ones career will likely cause issues.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

I can see as this becomes more exposed it might be a reason some schools finally fold up the tent regarding football. It might not be the only reason ... finances would be, and perhaps the swill factor ... But this issue isn't helping. Especially a school like Pitt so intimately associated with health care.

 

[pittdan77]

I think that the reference is to the Senator who brought a snowball to the Senate as "proof" that global warming did not exist.

Oh.

 

[pittdan77]

Say what?

My bad.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Equipment and technique have all improved. Nobody will deny that. But the game isn't scripted and brains move inside the skull so no level of padding will ever be able to mitigate the effect of sudden deceleration.

Not to minimize the study or its findings, but has anyone ever done a comparison study of rugby players? I'm wondering whether the equipment that was created and designed with the intent of minimizing injuries has actually had the opposite effect.

 

[pittdan77]

Football is a violent sport, however these guys are paid far more than the average American will earn in a lifetime. For the vast majority of these players this was/is their ticket out of poverty. It is a trade off and you must accept the risk with the reward. If they told me at age 21, we will pay you 50-100 million but you will likely die prematurely, I would take that deal. Steve Jobs, Reginald Lewis and other great business minds died of cancer, does this mean there is a correlation between being a billionaire CEO and cancer? Not trying to be a smart ass, but it begs the question.

I'm pretty certain that the "football is safer than ever" crowd is lying to every kid and parent they can to keep the meat grinder full. I've called guys out for this and have been gang attacked on social media. It's garbage but the money is there for small time experts to keep their camps and clinics full.

It's also a myth that the money makes it worth it. Very few players make any kind of real money for any extended period of time. Especially under the current labor agreement that allows teams to treat players with a year or two in the league like replaceable parts. Any guy that sniffed the inside of an NFL locker room will tell you that as soon as you get close to enough with "time served" to get a pension, you suddenly can't find a roster spot unless you are a starter worth the commitment or someone gets desperate. "Just the way the business operates."

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. The problem with research is that you can't study guys that are alive yet, and there are still a ton of "mitigating circumstances" that have to be understood. Things like drug/alcohol abuse, PED use, pre-existing mental health problems, etc. Until you can scientifically rule them out, those factors hang over any of the results because they haven't been dismissed.

Awareness has improved the treatment options but it's all still terribly lacking. It's also created a cottage industry of clowns that sit in on a couple of seminars and are suddenly the local expert on concussion treatment. It's terrifying to have a parent argue with you about the "expert" that's telling them all of the wrong things to do only to have them come back to you in a few months and tell you that you were right after they saw a real specialist and some of the after effects have become difficult or impossible to treat now.

 

[pittdan77]

Not to minimize the study or its findings, but has anyone ever done a comparison study of rugby players? I'm wondering whether the equipment that was created and designed with the intent of minimizing injuries has actually had the opposite effect.

I know that the governing bodies of rugby have really made it an emphasis. In some ways, they recognized that the NFL really got it wrong. It's also costing them playing time because its the most common injury in the game.

I think helmets help to the extent of single event contact to the head but they probably make repetitive contact, like linemen experience, easier to tolerate.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Not to minimize the study or its findings, but has anyone ever done a comparison study of rugby players? I'm wondering whether the equipment that was created and designed with the intent of minimizing injuries has actually had the opposite effect.

Great point!
Rugby players get hit in the head as much as football players and have no protection.

One of our kids played club rugby after playing football from 5 yrs old into college. Not one concussion playing football for all those years.
Two years into club Rugby ( high level rugby) he had two concussions. His team members mostly from S. Africa, other countries had numerous concussions. Watch a rugby game they get "beat upside the head" all game long. Maybe no spectacular hits but rugby players take a constant beating to the upper body and head.

In our kids estimation Rugby is alot more physical than football and the chance of serious injury is higher!

 

[RaleighPittFan]

Steve Jobs, Reginald Lewis and other great business minds died of cancer, does this mean there is a correlation between being a billionaire CEO and cancer? Not trying to be a smart ass, but it begs the question.

Wait, what?

Am I missing a joke or something?

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Soccer players also experience head traumas both from heading the ball and from hard falls where the head is shaken.

Point being that parents putting their kids in soccer because it is safer may not actually be accomplishing that objective--except to the extent that heading the ball is prohibited at very young ages in youth soccer.

 

[Jpripper88]

I'm pretty certain that the "football is safer than ever" crowd is lying to every kid and parent they can to keep the meat grinder full. I've called guys out for this and have been gang attacked on social media. It's garbage but the money is there for small time experts to keep their camps and clinics full.

It's also a myth that the money makes it worth it. Very few players make any kind of real money for any extended period of time. Especially under the current labor agreement that allows teams to treat players with a year or two in the league like replaceable parts. Any guy that sniffed the inside of an NFL locker room will tell you that as soon as you get close to enough with "time served" to get a pension, you suddenly can't find a roster spot unless you are a starter worth the commitment or someone gets desperate. "Just the way the business operates."

The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. The problem with research is that you can't study guys that are alive yet, and there are still a ton of "mitigating circumstances" that have to be understood. Things like drug/alcohol abuse, PED use, pre-existing mental health problems, etc. Until you can scientifically rule them out, those factors hang over any of the results because they haven't been dismissed.

Awareness has improved the treatment options but it's all still terribly lacking. It's also created a cottage industry of clowns that sit in on a couple of seminars and are suddenly the local expert on concussion treatment. It's terrifying to have a parent argue with you about the "expert" that's telling them all of the wrong things to do only to have them come back to you in a few months and tell you that you were right after they saw a real specialist and some of the after effects have become difficult or impossible to treat now.

I don't think pension factor comes into the equation, at all. Teams aren't cutting guys because they are close to getting their pension years in. Guys get cut because they aren't good enough to be impact players and they don't have the upside left to be better lottery tickets than the younger players with less baggage. Plus, the NFL now allows for veteran salary cap hit benefit once a player has 4+ years of experience, so they only count as a 2nd year player. That is what really matters for NFL teams. That changed a few years back, so before that, sure, that was an issue, but it isn't now under this new CBA.

Also, the money is what makes it worth it and why most of these guys do it. What are the other options for most of these players, if they weren't football players? Let's even consider their options as a college grad and just disregard the fact 50% (probably much higher) wouldn't have degrees at all and 90% wouldn't have degrees from equivalent level Universities, if it wasn't for football. Just that alone is probably worth it for most of them.

What do you think they make with, mostly, trash degrees and low GPAs? Maybe average career earnings of around the median income? So an average of like $55k a year for 40 years? So $2.2M? They can make that chasing the minimums in the NFL for 3+ years and they still have 35 years of a regular job. For most people, that alone would be worth it. However, there is also the upside you can make enough money in 5 years that you and your family never have to work again.

If you are the #32 pick you get $8.5M over 5 years, guaranteed. That isn't the ceiling, but even that, for 5 years of work is astronomical. That is the kind of money where you can easily live the rest of your life without having to work at all AND leave wealth to your family.

What careers are "worth it" if football doesn't qualify as one? Are they only steady, secure jobs where you have almost no chance at life changing money, but also have very little downside?

 

[Las Panteras]

Jimmy comes out for high school football and makes the first team as say...a safety. Midway through his senior year, jimmy gets a concussion. The parents....deeply concerned for their son........decide to sue everyone in sight....the school, the coaches.......the equipment maker....who knows where the litigation takes them.......

The school districts.....recognizing this event is happening with greater occurrence and is costing them more and more money paying insurance premiums, settlements, litigation.....finally decide to stop playing football at the high school level as the liability from legal action is killing them.

There are swaths of America where HS Football simply isnt that important. Most of us grew up in a culture where it is a big deal. But we all know of places where the opposite is true.

I guarantee it wont be long before the sport at the HS level is no longer played in different parts of our country.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Football should do everything it can to protect the players short of moving to flag football which might be just down the road!
Just an occupational hazard.
Lots of people have to work under risk of injury or death.
If its not a risk someone wants to take pick another line of work.
Hopefully these studies are monitored to be sure the results are accurate and that there's no hidden agenda's.

Researchers, politicians, media people, and other "hucksters" can creat a lifetime career if they overstate or intentionally misinterpret study results just like another topic that gets kicked around these days.

It's odd that you dont hear of alot high profile players except for Matt Millen?? ( announcers/tv analysts), running into these issues, just run of the mill guys?

Uhhhh, I think Tony Dorsett might be considered a high profile player. And he has been suffering for years with these symptoms.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

The fact is that the majority of brain injuries and concussions occur as a result of BODY tackles and the body suddenly stopping as a result of a hit. Yes, some concussions are a result of direct hits to the head, helmet or not. And there is no helmet made today that can prevent or reduce the occurrences of those types of concussions. But the body stopping very suddenly while the head keeps going forward violently is what causes most concussions. The brain is just floating in fluid inside a hard shell. It has virtually no protection from impact with the skull. And if that is done repeatedly, it exacerbates the condition.

 

[Revenge Of The Noise]

Jimmy comes out for high school football and makes the first team as say...a safety. Midway through his senior year, jimmy gets a concussion. The parents....deeply concerned for their son........decide to sue everyone in sight....the school, the coaches.......the equipment maker....who knows where the litigation takes them.......

The school districts.....recognizing this event is happening with greater occurrence and is costing them more and more money paying insurance premiums, settlements, litigation.....finally decide to stop playing football at the high school level as the liability from legal action is killing them.

There are swaths of America where HS Football simply isnt that important. Most of us grew up in a culture where it is a big deal. But we all know of places where the opposite is true.

I guarantee it wont be long before the sport at the HS level is no longer played in different parts of our country.

This could be another reason schools like Pitt might drop it, besides others in my post above... shallow pocket school with fear of litigation

 

[RaleighPittFan]

I wonder if any of these study's will help Owen Schmitt one day.

In the article about 13-9, he sounds as if he will need some help sooner than later.

 

[Jpripper88]

Jimmy comes out for high school football and makes the first team as say...a safety. Midway through his senior year, jimmy gets a concussion. The parents....deeply concerned for their son........decide to sue everyone in sight....the school, the coaches.......the equipment maker....who knows where the litigation takes them.......

The school districts.....recognizing this event is happening with greater occurrence and is costing them more and more money paying insurance premiums, settlements, litigation.....finally decide to stop playing football at the high school level as the liability from legal action is killing them.

There are swaths of America where HS Football simply isnt that important. Most of us grew up in a culture where it is a big deal. But we all know of places where the opposite is true.

I guarantee it wont be long before the sport at the HS level is no longer played in different parts of our country.

That is extremely low on the risk level, especially with all the knowledge out there about concussions. Now, if the school/company/coaches knowingly played the kid with elevated risk, after a concussion or withheld medical information, that could cause issues, but the difference there is malice.