OT: Army option

[Swervin27]

I think that if your are going to have an option package, then run it a lot. Else, it is too hard to master and the time is better spent practicing what you are good at.

Dickerson back in late 80's would run the option on occasion. Weird offense, one play would be a 5 or 7 step drop back, very low percentage, down the field pass plays, then DD would run the option.

This was before a lot of the west coast, high percentage, short passes became the norm in football. I loved Dickerson but you look back at his stats, had low percentage completions and a lot of the passes were down field, to Tuten or truitt or whoever. Then out of the blue, he'd go option.

 

[pittdan77]

Ya they are. Completely different from modern run blocking techniques which typically heavily incorporate zone blocking. Stances, first steps, hand placement are all different. Also the overall skills required by an option lineman are quite different from those that run a regular offense. So fine, guys at Pitt can run an option, but they aren’t really built for it. It would also take a bunch of practice to learn new techniques abs run it properly so precious practice time is probably better spent elsewhere.

A zone blocking scheme is closer to option blocking than it is to "man" blocking. First step always depends on where you're going so I don't know what that means. Stances are meaningless. I've run the option out of a pass pro stance. Did you mean splits because an option offense will try to widen them out? Hand placement being different makes zero sense so I just assume you pulled that out of thin air.

What does "they aren't really built for it" mean? What does an "option lineman" look like?

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

What does "they aren't really built for it" mean? What does an "option lineman" look like?

In the case of Georgia Tech, Army, and Navy, a guy in the 260-295 pound range who can get to the second level and cut quickly. Not a 6'5" 325 pound pass blocking tackle with long arms.

Admittedly with the service academies, they build their whole teams around the idea that other teams will probably be faster and bigger but they can negate that with exceptional team work, precision, exotic blitzes from many angles on defense, and series football option plays on offense. You don't have to do it that way. But it makes sense for them considering their rosters.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Ask Ian Shields down at Jacksonville University if Tom Freeman struggled teaching veer blocking coming from a zone blocking background....

You aren't running ISV worth a lick in a modern day OL stance. If you are, the competition isn't worth a lick.

You need to be in a heavy stance preferably with your inside hand down. 70-80% of your footwork is an inside release. Even on loop scheme you've got to maintain that stance.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

The main reason you wouldn't see true under center ISV at the NFL is the OL are too slow.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Henry Hynoski, Aaron Donald, Tyree Young, etc. look like the average guard or center at Navy.

 

[Panther Holla]

That type of offense is great for teams that have a hard time attracting talent. Personally, I think GT would be ok without it. If I'm a Syracuse, I would go back to the Don MacPherson era option by hiring an option coach. Someone like an Indiana, Kansas, those are the teams that should run the option.

For elite teams, the lack of a true passing QB and big-time WRs that agree to spend most of their career blocking makes the team too one-dimensional when going up against other elite teams

Cuse was a major headache for Pitt in that era. Johnny Sauer would say that they ran like three plays off a couple of different options -- the dive, the pitch, the pass -- and Pitt could not stop them.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Freeze option was a beauty.

Midline triple is the modern version but cleaned up with better blocking rules and reads.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I love midline from the pistol, especially if you have a QB who reads the 1 technique and then turns it into veer, you're constantly messing with the linebackers. Then your third adjustment is a load option to a tight end if you can out-leverage them as they move in. Chris Ault made a killing with that.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Temple plays Navy most years in the American conference and has been playing Army out of conference. Last year, those games were back-to-back . . . which kind of screwed up the defense for the rest of the year.

Army's not on the schedule this year. (Thank goodness. The last year under Rhule, they played like they were unprepared, and last year under new coach Collins, they managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.)

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I love watching Army. Navy sees like more of a straight flex bone team doing the Paul Johnson stuff year after year, Army runs more power and counter gap stuff, more traps. It's old school and fun. Even trap-midline option.

Monken has done a great job.

 

[pittdan77]

In the case of Georgia Tech, Army, and Navy, a guy in the 260-295 pound range who can get to the second level and cut quickly. Not a 6'5" 325 pound pass blocking tackle with long arms.

Admittedly with the service academies, they build their whole teams around the idea that other teams will probably be faster and bigger but they can negate that with exceptional team work, precision, exotic blitzes from many angles on defense, and series football option plays on offense. You don't have to do it that way. But it makes sense for them considering their rosters.

The only true undersized starter for Navy is the center. They can get away with that because he’s going to be asked to cut block on every single running play. The guy behind him on the depth chart goes 330. But Navy’s recent successes have a lot to do with their recruiting of bigger players.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

The only true undersized starter for Navy is the center. They can get away with that because he’s going to be asked to cut block on every single running play. The guy behind him on the depth chart goes 330. But Navy’s recent successes have a lot to do with their recruiting of bigger players.

I don't think Army or Navy has an o-line player over 300 pounds first in their depth chart? They didn't last year. I can't imagine the Naval academy wants anyone at 330 for other reasons either. I do agree they've recruited some bigger athletes lately, but they were winning before that, going back to PJ.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

The only true undersized starter for Navy is the center. They can get away with that because he’s going to be asked to cut block on every single running play. The guy behind him on the depth chart goes 330. But Navy’s recent successes have a lot to do with their recruiting of bigger players.

The past 2 seasons, Navy has had "bigger" OL's than they're accustomed too. Typically, they're operating with 5'11-6'2 kids between 255-285lbs at that position which is tiny compared to even PSAC OL.

Navy does not cut block playside. They never have nor will they ever. They cut backside on ISV/OSV/Zone etc. The center does not cut playside A gap on any of those plays. On Midline vs even fronts he's comboing back to the backside LB with the BS OG. Vs. odd fronts he and the backside OG are comboing the zero unless they're is a slice call where the ps OG is going to combo with him and the bs OG will go back to the 3 tech, 4i, 4 tech.

I've been running flexbone for close to 8-9 year and spend around 2 weeks down at Annapolis with the Navy guys.

 

[Mikefln]

The past 2 seasons, Navy has had "bigger" OL's than they're accustomed too. Typically, they're operating with 5'11-6'2 kids between 255-285lbs at that position which is tiny compared to even PSAC OL.

Navy does not cut block playside. They never have nor will they ever. They cut backside on ISV/OSV/Zone etc. The center does not cut playside A gap on any of those plays. On Midline vs even fronts he's comboing back to the backside LB with the BS OG. Vs. odd fronts he and the backside OG are comboing the zero unless they're is a slice call where the ps OG is going to combo with him and the bs OG will go back to the 3 tech, 4i, 4 tech.

I've been running flexbone for close to 8-9 year and spend around 2 weeks down at Annapolis with the Navy guys.

Where are you coaching if you don't mind me asking? If it is at the HS level, do you feel that the Academies check out your qbs just because you run that system?

 

[pittdan77]

The past 2 seasons, Navy has had "bigger" OL's than they're accustomed too. Typically, they're operating with 5'11-6'2 kids between 255-285lbs at that position which is tiny compared to even PSAC OL.

Navy does not cut block playside. They never have nor will they ever. They cut backside on ISV/OSV/Zone etc. The center does not cut playside A gap on any of those plays. On Midline vs even fronts he's comboing back to the backside LB with the BS OG. Vs. odd fronts he and the backside OG are comboing the zero unless they're is a slice call where the ps OG is going to combo with him and the bs OG will go back to the 3 tech, 4i, 4 tech.

I've been running flexbone for close to 8-9 year and spend around 2 weeks down at Annapolis with the Navy guys.

Yeah. You got it. The center only cuts the A gap playside if it’s stacked up play side with a backer or something. Navy has their own spin to how they run things.

There are variations. We used to pop a veer in and would occasionally throw in a misdirection. We’d also block it straight play-action for a quick pass which was chaotic as hell.

Navy does some cool stuff.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Yeah. You got it. The center only cuts the A gap playside if it’s stacked up play side with a backer or something. Navy has their own spin to how they run things.

There are variations. We used to pop a veer in and would occasionally throw in a misdirection. We’d also block it straight play-action for a quick pass which was chaotic as hell.

Navy does some cool stuff.

As does Air Force. Air Force probably has more scheme. I've seen them in a variety of stuff that Army nor Navy don't do.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

Where are you coaching if you don't mind me asking? If it is at the HS level, do you feel that the Academies check out your qbs just because you run that system?

I coach down in Salisbury, MD. I don't really think the academies look for my guys just because we run it. Now, if we had a beast they'd probably have him ranked higher. Ashley Ingram (navy's OC) told me that they're at the point now that if they see an athletic kid with the right mental makeup and toughness they believe they make a good option QB out of him regardless of the HS system. Keenan Reynolds was in a 4-5 wide spread offense in HS is a good example.

 

[pittdan77]

Honestly, I’m enjoying the fact that there is actually some OL discussion on this board.

 

[Mikefln]

.

I coach down in Salisbury, MD. I don't really think the academies look for my guys just because we run it. Now, if we had a beast they'd probably have him ranked higher. Ashley Ingram (navy's OC) told me that they're at the point now that if they see an athletic kid with the right mental makeup and toughness they believe they make a good option QB out of him regardless of the HS system. Keenan Reynolds was in a 4-5 wide spread offense in HS is a good example.

Can't remember his name but I would have loved to have seen that McKeesport QB in the mid 2000's when they won the state Championship be a QB at the Academies. I never seen a HS QB be so masterful at running that play. I believe he went to Princeton and started at DB his upper clansman years.

 

[pittdan77]

.


Can't remember his name but I would have loved to have seen that McKeesport QB in the mid 2000's when they won the state Championship be a QB at the Academies. I never seen a HS QB be so masterful at running that play. I believe he went to Princeton and started at DB his upper clansman years.

I’m prejudiced but Dee Dowis ran the triple option like he came out of the womb running it. God rest his soul.

 

[steelcurtain55.]

I remember that kid. The port has run the option extremely well. Great teachers mixed with great athletes.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

I remember that kid. The port has run the option extremely well. Great teachers mixed with great athletes.

That was the George Smith system. Are they still running it now that he's gone? They had a run of years where he kid who would be next year's quarterback . . . was this year's fullback!

Never understood why none of those QBs ended up at one of the academies, though.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

.


Can't remember his name but I would have loved to have seen that McKeesport QB in the mid 2000's when they won the state Championship be a QB at the Academies. I never seen a HS QB be so masterful at running that play. I believe he went to Princeton and started at DB his upper clansman years.

Kopolovich (one of the twins). He and his brother are grandsons of the long-time Duquesne HS coach. (He had two stints there, and unfortunately my playing days were during the dark ages that came between his two stints.)

 

[Mikefln]

Never understood why none of those QBs ended up at one of the academies, though.

Because the kid would want to have to go to an academy to end up there. It sounds like PittDan77 can give better details but you don't go to the academies to play football, you go there because you like the lifestyle/have a sense of duty.

 

[Mikefln]

Kopolovich (one of the twins). He and his brother are grandsons of the long-time Duquesne HS coach. (He had two stints there, and unfortunately my playing days were during the dark ages that came between his two stints.)

That's his name. He ran that system better than I ever seen a HS kid run it. It would have been awesome to have seen him run it in college, but I believe he went to Princeton (hard to pass up an Ivy League education) where he was a DB.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

As someone else mentioned Georgia Tech as a program may not be gaining anything by running the option as a system. I also believe they would have the same level of success (or lack of success) if they were playing a more conventional system. They are certainly capable of recruiting at a higher level than the service academies.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

you don't go to the academies to play football, you go there because you like the lifestyle/have a sense of duty.

Really??? I had no idea . . .

 

[pittdan77]

Because the kid would want to have to go to an academy to end up there. It sounds like PittDan77 can give better details but you don't go to the academies to play football, you go there because you like the lifestyle/have a sense of duty.

Well, you do and you don’t.

Unless you are academically and physically apt to get in on your own merits, you need something else. Family military history, political connections, or sports, to name a few. But you can’t be “just an athlete”. You have to have good test scores, grades, and pass the physical to get in. Once you’re in, you go through cadet basic training just like everyone else. Then you have to balance academics, military obligations, and athletics and try to stay sane. It’s very, very difficult.

The schools do their best to help. There are training tables in the evening that get you away from the nightmares of eating dinner in the midst of training. There are tutors. And you do get a few perks. Beyond that, freshman year is hell.

So if you ever look at the recruiting numbers, the academies have forty or more kids annually. About a third wash out before they ever get to football practice. Another third (or so) don’t make it to junior year or give up on football because it’s too hard with everything else.

In all seriousness, I was 17 when I went to basic less than a month out of hisgh school. It’s all a blur until football started.