OT: Bob Gibson's feat that we will never see again...

[mike412]

But if Alston hated Koufax because he was Jewish, what were his feelings about Wills and the two Davises, not to mention John Roseboro, Junior Gilliam, . . .

He was a racist, according to Tracewski, and one reason Wills and Willie Davis were close with Koufax was that he took more from Alston than they did and also stood up for the black players. Ironically, the Dodgers had other Jews on the roster then: 1B Norm Larker and the Sherry Brothers. But, Alston reserved his abuse for Koufax. This all comes from Tracewski, who was Koufax’ roommate on the road in those years. Koufax didn’t allow the author to interview him. But, he authorized Tracewski and certain other former teammates to do interviews, so I assume that what Tracewski says is pretty accurate.

People talk about how Koufax went almost overnight from a seldom-used mediocre pitcher into an unhittable superstar. But, according to some of his Dodger teammates from those early years, Alston was the reason he wasn’t more successful early. Alston hated using him and used him so sporadically that he couldn’t develop any consistency. He would pitch a good game, and the Alston wouldn’t use him again for 20 days. In the 1950s the Dodgers had enough quality starters that Alston could do that.

 

[wbrpanther]

He was a racist, according to Tracewski, and one reason Wills and Willie Davis were close with Koufax was that he took more from Alston than they did and also stood up for the black players. Ironically, the Dodgers had other Jews on the roster then: 1B Norm Larker and the Sherry Brothers. But, Alston reserved his abuse for Koufax. This all comes from Tracewski, who was Koufax’ roommate on the road in those years. Koufax didn’t allow the author to interview him. But, he authorized Tracewski and certain other former teammates to do interviews, so I assume that what Tracewski says is pretty accurate.

People talk about how Koufax went almost overnight from a seldom-used mediocre pitcher into an unhittable superstar. But, according to some of his Dodger teammates from those early years, Alston was the reason he wasn’t more successful early. Alston hated using him and used him so sporadically that he couldn’t develop any consistency. He would pitch a good game, and the Alston wouldn’t use him again for 20 days. In the 1950s the Dodgers had enough quality starters that Alston could do that.

Just finished a Koufax biography last week. The common story was always that Koufax hit his stride when he was convinced to take a little off his speed to gain more control. Sandy said that was part of it. but was convinced Alston's constant screwing around with his head was a bigger factor.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Just finished a Koufax biography last week. The common story was always that Koufax hit his stride when he was convinced to take a little off his speed to gain more control. Sandy said that was part of it. but was convinced Alston's constant screwing around with his head was a bigger factor.

The Pirates had first crack at him. They worked him out and Branch Rickey said he had the best arm he had ever seen. Broke the catcher's hand with a pitch!

However, the Pirates failed to offer him a contract, and the Dodgers Al Campanis pounced and signed him.

How old was Nutting then??

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Surely something has had to evolve in the human arm that has caused pitching to cause so many injuries.

Let's be honest, what has most "evolved" in baseball over the decades, I doubt back then, the 70's, even into the 80's, baseball players lifted weights. I think now these guys (we see this in golf) are like fine tuned machines, but they put so much torque and tear on their joints and ligaments, which just aren't designed to support such muscle.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Was at the game Gibson threw the no-hitter in Pittsburgh. One of my greatest sports memories.

I remember as a kid, seeing Jim Bibby giving up a leadoff single, then retiring the next 27.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The difference is that the average pitcher today throws their average fast ball 10 mph faster than the average guy did 40 or 50 years ago. I saw something a week or so ago that the average MLB fastball so far this season is over 93 mph. It wasn't all that unusual even 30 years ago for a team to not have one player on the team that reached 90 on a regular basis. Now most teams don't have anyone who doesn't regularly throw 90.

And human arms are simply not made to take that kind of stress. Are there some guys that can do it? Sure, there are. But the only way to find out is to try it, and when it doesn't work the guys arm, for all intents and purposes, explodes. And if you are paying a guy $15 or $20 million a season, or if you hope a guy is good enough that some day he will deserve a contract for $15 or $20 million a season, then why would you take the chance?

Add in the fact that relief pitchers are so much better today than they were at any time in baseball history, again, in large part to the fact that they throw the ball so hard, and why would you want your starters pitching more? Unless they change the rules, lower the mound, move the pitching rubber back, limit the number of pitchers on a roster, something like that, the days of starting pitchers regularly going nine innings are NEVER coming back.

I think it is more the weightlifting Joe. Ryan threw just as hard as any pitcher does today, he pitched forever. I think the combo of these weightlifting regiments and also pitching coaches over coaching pitchers, alternating their deliveries.....I mean there is sometimes a reason why a pitcher has a certain delivery and pitching angle, it is because that is where his body and arm are comfortable, they tweak and change it, and it stresses the arm and joints and causes these problems.

Also, I do agree, I think these guys are coddled too much and aren't stretched out to go 7-8-9 innings.

 

[wbrpanther]

I remember as a kid, seeing Jim Bibby giving up a leadoff single, then retiring the next 27.

I distinctly remember that. A monumental feet that is never mentioned. Am I remembering correctly that the runner was eliminated on a double play so Bibby ended up facing the minimum 27 batters?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I distinctly remember that. A monumental feet that is never mentioned. Am I remembering correctly that the runner was eliminated on a double play so Bibby ended up facing the minimum 27 batters?

Here is the recap. He also hit two doubles, and 93 pitches to complete the game.

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/may-19-1981-jim-bibbys-near-no-hitter

 

[wbrpanther]

Here is the recap. He also hit two doubles, and 93 pitches to complete the game.

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/may-19-1981-jim-bibbys-near-no-hitter

Thanks for sharing, recruits. As an aside, Bibby's brother was Henry Bibby who played on a few of John Wooden's national Championship UCLA squads.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Thanks for sharing, recruits. As an aside, Bibby's brother was Henry Bibby who played on a few of John Wooden's national Championship UCLA squads.

Yeah and I think Henry's son Mike Bibby was an All American guard for Arizona.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Here is the recap. He also hit two doubles, and 93 pitches to complete the game.

https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/may-19-1981-jim-bibbys-near-no-hitter

A crowd of 5,514! LOL!

 

[wbrpanther]

Yeah and I think Henry's son Mike Bibby was an All American guard for Arizona.

Yep

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

A crowd of 5,514! LOL!

Yeah people don't realize this "attendance" craze, this almost mandated "you gotta support your team" by going to games is a relatively recent phenomenon.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I think it is more the weightlifting Joe. Ryan threw just as hard as any pitcher does today, he pitched forever. I think the combo of these weightlifting regiments and also pitching coaches over coaching pitchers, alternating their deliveries.....I mean there is sometimes a reason why a pitcher has a certain delivery and pitching angle, it is because that is where his body and arm are comfortable, they tweak and change it, and it stresses the arm and joints and causes these problems.

Well I would agree that weight lifting accounts for part of the ability to throw the ball harder, but more of the difference is clearly that guys are trying to throw the ball basically as hard as they can, pretty much as often as they can. Especially relief pitchers. Weight lifting doesn't account for anywhere close to all the extra velocity that guys throw with today, and generating that velocity is the problem. The harder you throw the ball the more stress on the arm and the greater likelihood that your arm is going to break down.

And I agree that Ryan is one of the very few guys from back in the day that could throw as hard as guys are regularly throwing now. But that doesn't make him the proof of anything, that makes him one of the outliers. As I said, there are guys out there today (a few of them) who certainly could do the same thing. But the only way to find out is to try it. And more often than not the consequences of trying it are that you find out that your guy isn't one of the outliers, and his arm turns to mush, a la Koufax and literally hundreds of other guys. And if you are paying the 2019 version of Ryan or Koufax $20 million a season for the next half decade the last thing you want to find out is that he's not one of the outliers, and that you've just turned your star pitchers arm into a noodle.

 

[BFo8]

Yeah and I think Henry's son Mike Bibby was an All American guard for Arizona.

I was a huge Jim Bibby fan as a kid. Mike Bibby not so much, guy is pretty much a well known scumbag.

 

[BFo8]

Well I would agree that weight lifting accounts for part of the ability to throw the ball harder, but more of the difference is clearly that guys are trying to throw the ball basically as hard as they can, pretty much as often as they can. Especially relief pitchers. Weight lifting doesn't account for anywhere close to all the extra velocity that guys throw with today, and generating that velocity is the problem. The harder you throw the ball the more stress on the arm and the greater likelihood that your arm is going to break down.

And I agree that Ryan is one of the very few guys from back in the day that could throw as hard as guys are regularly throwing now. But that doesn't make him the proof of anything, that makes him one of the outliers. As I said, there are guys out there today (a few of them) who certainly could do the same thing. But the only way to find out is to try it. And more often than not the consequences of trying it are that you find out that your guy isn't one of the outliers, and his arm turns to mush, a la Koufax and literally hundreds of other guys. And if you are paying the 2019 version of Ryan or Koufax $20 million a season for the next half decade the last thing you want to find out is that he's not one of the outliers, and that you've just turned your star pitchers arm into a noodle.

Ryan was just a freak of nature, an exception to the rule. I don’t think we will see anyone throw that hard for that long a period for many years.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Here's the thing I was talking about wrt how hard guys throw the ball now as opposed to decades ago. These are comments from write ups about first round prospects for this year's MLB draft.

On Matthew Allen, who is a high school kid from Florida, "a solid-average fastball that's regularly 92-95 mph".

On JJ Goss, a high schooler from Houston, "the 6-foot-3 right-hander is 91-95 with an above-average slider"

On Quinn Priester, a high school kid from Illinois, "Priester has been throwing 93-95 mph in shorter stints and I saw him at 90-94 in a full-bore outing"

On Brennan Malone, who is at the IMG Academy in Florida, "working with 92-95 mph velocity to go with an above-average breaking ball"

On Daniel Espino, a high school kid from Georgia, "Espino was up to 99 last summer but has seen his velocity waver this spring, sometimes back in the upper 90s and sometimes down to 90-95"

I can go on, but I think that makes my point for me. Those are high school kids. 18 year olds. And they are all already throwing well into the 90s. And not once or twice a game. That's where their fast ball sits. Hell, the one kid was regularly throwing 99 last summer. As a 17 year old.

That's five high school pitchers all regularly throwing in the low to mid-90s. That would be a whole league's worth of guys 40 or 50 years ago. And that's just from the top 25 draft prospects. Guys throw the ball much, much harder now than they ever have before, and most of their arms simply cannot take that kind of stress forever without major problems.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Here's the thing I was talking about wrt how hard guys throw the ball now as opposed to decades ago. These are comments from write ups about first round prospects for this year's MLB draft.

On Matthew Allen, who is a high school kid from Florida, "a solid-average fastball that's regularly 92-95 mph".

On JJ Goss, a high schooler from Houston, "the 6-foot-3 right-hander is 91-95 with an above-average slider"

On Quinn Priester, a high school kid from Illinois, "Priester has been throwing 93-95 mph in shorter stints and I saw him at 90-94 in a full-bore outing"

On Brennan Malone, who is at the IMG Academy in Florida, "working with 92-95 mph velocity to go with an above-average breaking ball"

On Daniel Espino, a high school kid from Georgia, "Espino was up to 99 last summer but has seen his velocity waver this spring, sometimes back in the upper 90s and sometimes down to 90-95"

I can go on, but I think that makes my point for me. Those are high school kids. 18 year olds. And they are all already throwing well into the 90s. And not once or twice a game. That's where their fast ball sits. Hell, the one kid was regularly throwing 99 last summer. As a 17 year old.

That's five high school pitchers all regularly throwing in the low to mid-90s. That would be a whole league's worth of guys 40 or 50 years ago. And that's just from the top 25 draft prospects. Guys throw the ball much, much harder now than they ever have before, and most of their arms simply cannot take that kind of stress forever without major problems.

Joe, remember the name Stetson Allie?? Wasn't he like this? One of these kids who threw 95-100 in high school. The Pirates picked him in the 2nd rd. Unfortunately, while he could throw hard, he couldn't pitch a lick. They tried to convert him to an OF because he had some power. He didn't do that real well either.

I imagine there are many cases like this every draft.

 

[wbrpanther]

Joe, remember the name Stetson Allie?? Wasn't he like this? One of these kids who threw 95-100 in high school. The Pirates picked him in the 2nd rd. Unfortunately, while he could throw hard, he couldn't pitch a lick. They tried to convert him to an OF because he had some power. He didn't do that real well either.

I imagine there are many cases like this every draft.

Pretty sure Allie was picked in the second round after Taillon went in the first.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I imagine there are many cases like this every draft.

Well recently, sure. Even ten years ago? No way. 40 years ago it was unusual for a MLB team to have more than one or two guys who could regularly hit 90. Now lots of high school guys do it. 40 years ago basically no one in high school threw the ball in the 90s. Now it's common enough that no one gives it much of a second thought.

If you really don't think that MLB pitchers and high school pitchers are throwing the ball much harder today than at any time in the past then I don't know what to say, because it's so obviously true that you shouldn't even need to say it.

By the way, they mentioned another guy just a few minutes ago on tonight's game who could throw the ball through a wall but couldn't pitch a lick. Archimedes Caminaro (that's probably not spelled right). Regularly threw 101, 102. Couldn't get anyone out.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

BTW, speaking of tonight's game, heading into this season three guys had hit balls into the river on the fly since PNC Park had opened. Josh Bell has done it twice this month.

Seems like the new hitting coach agrees with Bell.

 

[wbrpanther]

Well recently, sure. Even ten years ago? No way. 40 years ago it was unusual for a MLB team to have more than one or two guys who could regularly hit 90. Now lots of high school guys do it. 40 years ago basically no one in high school threw the ball in the 90s. Now it's common enough that no one gives it much of a second thought.

If you really don't think that MLB pitchers and high school pitchers are throwing the ball much harder today than at any time in the past then I don't know what to say, because it's so obviously true that you shouldn't even need to say it.

By the way, they mentioned another guy just a few minutes ago on tonight's game who could throw the ball through a wall but couldn't pitch a lick. Archimedes Caminaro (that's probably not spelled right). Regularly threw 101, 102. Couldn't get anyone out.

Archimedes got people when he threw strikes. But he couldn’t find the plate. What was the name of that 6’10” white flash in the pan a few years back that was damn near unhittable. Came out of nowhere then disappeared. Holdscom or something like that.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Well recently, sure. Even ten years ago? No way. 40 years ago it was unusual for a MLB team to have more than one or two guys who could regularly hit 90. Now lots of high school guys do it. 40 years ago basically no one in high school threw the ball in the 90s. Now it's common enough that no one gives it much of a second thought.

If you really don't think that MLB pitchers and high school pitchers are throwing the ball much harder today than at any time in the past then I don't know what to say, because it's so obviously true that you shouldn't even need to say it.

By the way, they mentioned another guy just a few minutes ago on tonight's game who could throw the ball through a wall but couldn't pitch a lick. Archimedes Caminaro (that's probably not spelled right). Regularly threw 101, 102. Couldn't get anyone out.

I dunno.

I remember Ryan, Richard and Mike Scott on the Astros. That was an unbelievable staff who could throw hard. Those early Mets staffs from the late 60's (Ryan on that too). The Orioles with Palmer, Cuellar, now I don't remember the actual mph they threw.....

 

[McKee Place]

JR Richard... he was a monster who could really bring it.

The single season that the Bucs had Goose Gossage was fun. When they'd bring him in to relieve, you just had to stop and watch. Shame free agency had taken hold, and we couldn't keep him away from the Yankees. Tekulve certainly was effective a closer thereafter but not nearly as thrilling.

 

[wbrpanther]

I dunno.

I remember Ryan, Richard and Mike Scott on the Astros. That was an unbelievable staff who could throw hard. Those early Mets staffs from the late 60's (Ryan on that too). The Orioles with Palmer, Cuellar, now I don't remember the actual mph they threw.....

Here is a coincidence. The big flash in the pan pitcher I was talking about was John Holdzkom in 2014. Pirates signed him out of an independent league that June and he was called up that September and helped the Pirates to a wildcard spot. Shoulder pain quickly drove him out of baseball.

A story surfaced a few minutes ago saying he is trying to make a comeback.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I remember Ryan, Richard and Mike Scott on the Astros. That was an unbelievable staff who could throw hard. Those early Mets staffs from the late 60's (Ryan on that too). The Orioles with Palmer, Cuellar, now I don't remember the actual mph they threw.....

I don't think the Orioles' guys actually threw that hard, they were just great pitchers. But you are kind of making my point for me. You remember three staffs from the past 50 years that each had a few guys on them who if they were pitching today, other than perhaps Ryan, would be nothing special at all velocity-wise. The Pirates have a half a dozen guys who throw the ball every bit as hard, and in some cases harder, than the guys that you are talking about.

And the Pirates certainly aren't special in that regard. Every team in the league has a half dozen guys on the roster, and another several pitching in the high minors waiting their chance, that throw the ball as hard as those guys did. There are dozens of guys today in the league, literally dozens, that throw the ball as hard or harder than guys like Scott and Seaver. And in their day those guys were something special. Today? Not so much.

 

[PittMan 72]

The barber. One of the all time great nicknames.

Cause he used to give batters a "close shave".

In those days, pitchers threw dusters regularly - and with intent - to keep them off the plate and to try to intimidate.

Great story about HOF'er Don Drysdale. 6'6" hard-throwing, side arming right-hander for the Dodgers. Also known to be pretty mean on the mound. In the early '60's Giants pitchers hit a couple of Dodgers in a game. Drysdale told a reporter after the game: "For every one of our guys that gets hit, I'll hit 2 of theirs. And they won't be .200 hitters, either"

Reportedly, Mays, McCovey and Cepeda told the Giants pitchers to knock it off before they got drilled. That's how things were done then. The players took care of things among themselves.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Cause he used to give batters a "close shave".

In those days, pitchers threw dusters regularly - and with intent - to keep them off the plate and to try to intimidate.

Great story about HOF'er Don Drysdale. 6'6" hard-throwing, side arming right-hander for the Dodgers. Also known to be pretty mean on the mound. In the early '60's Giants pitchers hit a couple of Dodgers in a game. Drysdale told a reporter after the game: "For every one of our guys that gets hit, I'll hit 2 of theirs. And they won't be .200 hitters, either"

Reportedly, Mays, McCovey and Cepeda told the Giants pitchers to knock it off before they got drilled. That's how things were done then. The players took care of things among themselves.

That was the mindset behind Dock Ellis taking on the Big Red Machine.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Of course Greg Maddux proved there was another way to get it done at a high level.
Pinpoint control and a sinker got him into the HOF.

 

[wbrpanther]

Of course Greg Maddux proved there was another way to get it done at a high level.
Pinpoint control and a sinker got him into the HOF.

Greg Maddux was a very rare bird.

 

[HOF Coach]

Of course Greg Maddux proved there was another way to get it done at a high level.
Pinpoint control and a sinker got him into the HOF.

Even though he played for the rival Phillies, I enjoyed watching lefty Steve Carlton baffle even the greatest hitters with his nasty slider. When he would show his fastball, it was seldom in the strike zone and hitters would chase it anyway to try an avoid another off-speed silder.

I would sit right behind home plate at Three Rivers Stadium (tipped the usher) whenever he was pitching against the Buccos and just marveled at his pitching craft. This video will illustrate my point...enjoy!

 

[mike412]

Let’s be honest here. No one knows how hard pitchers threw back in the 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s because there were no radar guns. How hard did Bob Feller really throw? Herb Score? Dizzy Dean? Robin Roberts? We don’t know. What we do know is that they didn’t miss years of pitching with arm problems. Score got hit in the head with a line drive and that ended his career, but most of the great pitchers prior to the 90s never had serious arm problems. Koufax was the exception, not the rule.

I don’t doubt that the average high school pitcher throws harder than was true 40 years ago. Although I was in high school when Sudden Sam McDowell pitched, and I would wager that he threw as hard as anyone does now. But, for probably a combination of reasons, pitchers today aren’t as valuable as they were then. They don’t eat up innings; they don’t pitch complete games; and they are injured far too often.

To me, Warren Spahn was the most valuable pitcher of all time. Not the best and not the guy I would give the ball to in the 7th game of the World Series if Koufax or Gibson was available. But, the most valuable to a team because of what he consistently did over a long time period: Won 363 games despite losing three years to military service in WW II (won a Purple Heart at the Battle of the Bulge and as he later joked “didn’t miss a turn”); won 20 or more games 13 times, including going 23-7 when he was 42 years old; was part of a 4-man rotation his entire career; basically was part of a two-man rotation in Boston right after the war (“Spahn and Sain and pray for rain”); threw the most complete games, 382, in MLB history in the live-ball era; threw a 201 pitch, 16 inning complete game in a 1-0 loss AT AGE 42; gave up the first hit ever to Willie Mays after Willie started his career 0 for 12 (after the game Spahn noted that the rubber is 60 feet, 6 inches from home plate and quipped that “it was a hell of a pitch for the first 60 feet”); and didn’t throw at batters. When he was a rookie, Casey Stengel sent him to the minors for refusing to throw at Pee Wee Reese. Stengel later said it was the worst managerial decision of his career.

If I was putting together a fantasy team for a 20 year season, he would be my first pick.

 

[McKee Place]

Even though he played for the rival Phillies, I enjoyed watching lefty Steve Carlton baffle even the greatest hitters with his nasty slider. When he would show his fastball, it was seldom in the strike zone and hitters would chase it anyway to try an avoid another off-speed silder.

I would sit right behind home plate at Three Rivers Stadium (tipped the usher) whenever he was pitching against the Buccos and just marveled at his pitching craft. This video will illustrate my point...enjoy!

View embedded media

I remember Dave Parker, in his prime when killing everything in sight, consistently totally flummoxed by Carlton.

 

[wbrpanther]

Let’s be honest here. No one knows how hard pitchers threw back in the 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s because there were no radar guns. How hard did Bob Feller really throw? Herb Score? Dizzy Dean? Robin Roberts? We don’t know. What we do know is that they didn’t miss years of pitching with arm problems. Score got hit in the head with a line drive and that ended his career, but most of the great pitchers prior to the 90s never had serious arm problems. Koufax was the exception, not the rule.

I don’t doubt that the average high school pitcher throws harder than was true 40 years ago. Although I was in high school when Sudden Sam McDowell pitched, and I would wager that he threw as hard as anyone does now. But, for probably a combination of reasons, pitchers today aren’t as valuable as they were then. They don’t eat up innings; they don’t pitch complete games; and they are injured far too often.

To me, Warren Spahn was the most valuable pitcher of all time. Not the best and not the guy I would give the ball to in the 7th game of the World Series if Koufax or Gibson was available. But, the most valuable to a team because of what he consistently did over a long time period: Won 363 games despite losing three years to military service in WW II (won a Purple Heart at the Battle of the Bulge and as he later joked “didn’t miss a turn”); won 20 or more games 13 times, including going 23-7 when he was 42 years old; was part of a 4-man rotation his entire career; basically was part of a two-man rotation in Boston right after the war (“Spahn and Sain and pray for rain”); threw the most complete games, 382, in MLB history in the live-ball era; threw a 201 pitch, 16 inning complete game in a 1-0 loss AT AGE 42; gave up the first hit ever to Willie Mays after Willie started his career 0 for 12 (after the game Spahn noted that the rubber is 60 feet, 6 inches from home plate and quipped that “it was a hell of a pitch for the first 60 feet”); and didn’t throw at batters. When he was a rookie, Casey Stengel sent him to the minors for refusing to throw at Pee Wee Reese. Stengel later said it was the worst managerial decision of his career.

If I was putting together a fantasy team for a 20 year season, he would be my first pick.

Spahn was definitely top 10 all time. 363 wins and he was 26 years old when he won his first major league game. In the 16 inning game you referred to his opponent was a young Juan Marichal. In the 15th inning the Giant manager told Marichal that 15 innings was enough and he was going to hit for him. Marichal told him that he was staying in the game as long as that 42 year old bastard was staying in.

 

[wbrpanther]

Even though he played for the rival Phillies, I enjoyed watching lefty Steve Carlton baffle even the greatest hitters with his nasty slider. When he would show his fastball, it was seldom in the strike zone and hitters would chase it anyway to try an avoid another off-speed silder.

I would sit right behind home plate at Three Rivers Stadium (tipped the usher) whenever he was pitching against the Buccos and just marveled at his pitching craft. This video will illustrate my point...enjoy!

View embedded media

I’ve followed baseball since the 50s and Carlton along with Koufax and the Big Unit Randy Johnson were the top 3 lefties of my time. That Carlton slider was a thing of beauty. I have no idea how anybody ever hit it. He had what could be the best year ever with the Phillies in 1972 when he won 27 games on a team so bad they only won 56 games total all year.

 

[FreeportPanther]

The Art of pitching has been lost in modern baseball. Now it's all about beating the radar gun and hitting home runs. Makes for boring baseball. Lots of strikeouts, "All or None"!

Don't discount the lowering of the mound for increasing injuries. Much easier to throw downhill.

When I was coaching, I was short a starter, so I broke my son in. He couldn't throw hard, but I told him that wasn't important. Taught him a slider that broke pretty good, actually more of a slurve. Told him that if you can't throw really fast, throw really slow! It worked great!
The guys he was going against were geared to hit heat, and they couldn't properly time up a slow pitch. Get ahead of them and then throw the breaking ball. Just throw strikes and make them swing the bat. Lots of K's and weak ground balls or pop ups as they over swung time after time. Also made his mediocre fastball look a lot faster and you could sneak it in once in a while. Drove the opposition crazy!

A pitcher like that could succeed in today's MLB, but wouldn't get a chance because he'd never advance unless he broke the radar gun.

It's why knuckleballers, another lost art, had success and really screwed up hitters.
Hitting a ML fastball requires amazing quickness and you have to get the bat going. Off speed and slow curves that really break are just as unhittable as a 100 MPH fastball. In fact if all you have is that fastball, you won't succeed because sooner or later those hitters will time it up and knock it out of sight.

Enjoyed old time baseball, the crafty pitcher, the hitter who choked up and used the whole field, the strategy of moving runners up by bunting or hitting the other way, stealing bases, smart base running.........it's all lost in the modern power game. Shame because now it's all about the freaks who hit 500 foot HR's or throw 100 mph.

 

[HOF Coach]

The Art of pitching has been lost in modern baseball. Now it's all about beating the radar gun and hitting home runs. Makes for boring baseball. Lots of strikeouts, "All or None"!

Don't discount the lowering of the mound for increasing injuries. Much easier to throw downhill.

When I was coaching, I was short a starter, so I broke my son in. He couldn't throw hard, but I told him that wasn't important. Taught him a slider that broke pretty good, actually more of a slurve. Told him that if you can't throw really fast, throw really slow! It worked great!
The guys he was going against were geared to hit heat, and they couldn't properly time up a slow pitch. Get ahead of them and then throw the breaking ball. Just throw strikes and make them swing the bat. Lots of K's and weak ground balls or pop ups as they over swung time after time. Also made his mediocre fastball look a lot faster and you could sneak it in once in a while. Drove the opposition crazy!

A pitcher like that could succeed in today's MLB, but wouldn't get a chance because he'd never advance unless he broke the radar gun.

It's why knuckleballers, another lost art, had success and really screwed up hitters.
Hitting a ML fastball requires amazing quickness and you have to get the bat going. Off speed and slow curves that really break are just as unhittable as a 100 MPH fastball. In fact if all you have is that fastball, you won't succeed because sooner or later those hitters will time it up and knock it out of sight.

Enjoyed old time baseball, the crafty pitcher, the hitter who choked up and used the whole field, the strategy of moving runners up by bunting or hitting the other way, stealing bases, smart base running.........it's all lost in the modern power game. Shame because now it's all about the freaks who hit 500 foot HR's or throw 100 mph.

What is this "bunting" thing that you refer to?

 

[FreeportPanther]

What is this "bunting" thing that you refer to?

 

[wbrpanther]

The Art of pitching has been lost in modern baseball. Now it's all about beating the radar gun and hitting home runs. Makes for boring baseball. Lots of strikeouts, "All or None"!

Don't discount the lowering of the mound for increasing injuries. Much easier to throw downhill.

When I was coaching, I was short a starter, so I broke my son in. He couldn't throw hard, but I told him that wasn't important. Taught him a slider that broke pretty good, actually more of a slurve. Told him that if you can't throw really fast, throw really slow! It worked great!
The guys he was going against were geared to hit heat, and they couldn't properly time up a slow pitch. Get ahead of them and then throw the breaking ball. Just throw strikes and make them swing the bat. Lots of K's and weak ground balls or pop ups as they over swung time after time. Also made his mediocre fastball look a lot faster and you could sneak it in once in a while. Drove the opposition crazy!

A pitcher like that could succeed in today's MLB, but wouldn't get a chance because he'd never advance unless he broke the radar gun.

It's why knuckleballers, another lost art, had success and really screwed up hitters.
Hitting a ML fastball requires amazing quickness and you have to get the bat going. Off speed and slow curves that really break are just as unhittable as a 100 MPH fastball. In fact if all you have is that fastball, you won't succeed because sooner or later those hitters will time it up and knock it out of sight.

Enjoyed old time baseball, the crafty pitcher, the hitter who choked up and used the whole field, the strategy of moving runners up by bunting or hitting the other way, stealing bases, smart base running.........it's all lost in the modern power game. Shame because now it's all about the freaks who hit 500 foot HR's or throw 100 mph.

Anyone remember Randy Jones. He pitched for the Padres in the 70s and was so slow the ball's shadow got to the plate before the ball. But major league hitters could not hit him. It was so frustrating to see the Pittsburgh Lumber Company go out there and flail around all day. Randy was one of the most successful pitchers of that era.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Art of pitching has been lost in modern baseball. Now it's all about beating the radar gun and hitting home runs. Makes for boring baseball. Lots of strikeouts, "All or None"!

Don't discount the lowering of the mound for increasing injuries. Much easier to throw downhill.

When I was coaching, I was short a starter, so I broke my son in. He couldn't throw hard, but I told him that wasn't important. Taught him a slider that broke pretty good, actually more of a slurve. Told him that if you can't throw really fast, throw really slow! It worked great!
The guys he was going against were geared to hit heat, and they couldn't properly time up a slow pitch. Get ahead of them and then throw the breaking ball. Just throw strikes and make them swing the bat. Lots of K's and weak ground balls or pop ups as they over swung time after time. Also made his mediocre fastball look a lot faster and you could sneak it in once in a while. Drove the opposition crazy!

A pitcher like that could succeed in today's MLB, but wouldn't get a chance because he'd never advance unless he broke the radar gun.

It's why knuckleballers, another lost art, had success and really screwed up hitters.
Hitting a ML fastball requires amazing quickness and you have to get the bat going. Off speed and slow curves that really break are just as unhittable as a 100 MPH fastball. In fact if all you have is that fastball, you won't succeed because sooner or later those hitters will time it up and knock it out of sight.

Enjoyed old time baseball, the crafty pitcher, the hitter who choked up and used the whole field, the strategy of moving runners up by bunting or hitting the other way, stealing bases, smart base running.........it's all lost in the modern power game. Shame because now it's all about the freaks who hit 500 foot HR's or throw 100 mph.

You are right. Sort of like Tennis has devolved into a serve contest. You serve a zillion miles an hour and able to get it in play more than your opponent, you win.

I do blame a lot of these analytics geeks with screwing up the art and skill of baseball by strictly turning it into a game of probabilities. I think baseball was a more interesting game a decade ago. It has just become a strikeout/home run hitting contest. But crafty pitching is becoming a lost art. It was watching Trevor Williams is so fun, but guess what, he is now throwing close to mid 90's and.....he tweaks something. It used to be conventional wisdom that breaking stuff was harder and led to more injuries with pitchers. I don't think that is so true anymore.