OT: Developers foreclose on South Fayette Newbury Market

[HailToPitt725]

Can anyone tell me what’s going on in South Fayette? Seems like a perfect location off 79 in a growing community with great schools, but they haven’t been able to bring anyone in except TopGolf and Carvana. UPMC, 84 Lumber, and Giant Eagle have all backed out in previous years.

Link

You would imagine they’d be more pressed to get this project off the ground since IIRC their tax base is out of control because the commercial development hasn’t caught up with the boom in population.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Newberry Market has been a strange deal from the word go. It was a very good concept but the developer, who is from Tennessee, was always pretty shady and I also think that township’s commissioners have made a lot of mistakes. Honestly, South Fayette should be a case study for how to mismanage a wonderful asset.

South Fayette is wonderful school district and a great area. I have plenty of friends and family to work and/or send their children to that school district. There are so many wonderful neighborhoods in that community. The northern equivalent, from where I sit, would probably be fine Pine Township.

However, unlike Pine, their commercial development simply has not kept pace with their population explosion and that has led to some incredibly high taxes.

For some people, the taxes are worth it to live in such an otherwise lovely community and to have such a great school district. However, for me, it’s just too lopsided and infrastructure is just too underdeveloped. Basically, to get in and out you have to go either 79 or 50, the latter of which is a parking lot on weekday mornings and afternoons.

When we were building our home, my wife and I strongly considered SF because it does have so much going for it. However, at the end of the day, the taxes and lack of local businesses were just a deal breaker for us.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Newberry Market has been a strange deal from the word go. It was a very good concept but the developer, who is from Tennessee, was always pretty shady and I also think that township’s commissioners have made a lot of mistakes. Honestly, South Fayette should be a case study for how to mismanage a wonderful asset.

South Fayette is wonderful school district and a great area. I have plenty of friends and family to work and/or send their children to that school district. There are so many wonderful neighborhoods in that community. The northern equivalent, from where I sit, would probably be fine Pine Township.

However, unlike Pine, their commercial development simply has not kept pace with their population explosion and that has led to some incredibly high taxes.

For some people, the taxes are worth it to live in such an otherwise lovely community and to have such a great school district. However, for me, it’s just too lopsided and infrastructure is just too underdeveloped. Basically, to get in and out you have to go either 79 or 50, the latter of which is a parking lot on weekday mornings and afternoons.

When we were building our home, my wife and I strongly considered SF because it does have so much going for it. However, at the end of the day, the taxes and lack of local businesses were just a deal breaker for us.

Thanks for the post, that all sounds familiar. I’ve heard there’s discussions about the southern beltway going through there one day so perhaps that could help. Did the fact that it was an old Koppers site detract some folks away? It just seems like that site had so much potential; they could treat the entrance to the shopping area as a town square since South Fayette Twp pretty much lacks one right now. Would make for a great entrance coming into the township off of 79.

We were actually close to moving there around 2013, before we decided on Kansas City. Loved the countryside and the hills, but to me some of the neighborhoods seemed too homogenized from a architectural standpoint and the lots weren’t huge for what you were paying. We looked at a development across the street from their campus (which is really nice) and the lots were pretty cramped. When we moved out here, we were able to get a house for around the same price with twice as much square footage.

 

[pittchagg]

I do recall hearing - it may have just been a rumor, maybe not - that the various environmental issues with the site ultimately scared off UPMC. Not sure how many hospitals are built on Superfund sites.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yeah, I have heard that as well. I have heard that the land there is contaminated and very difficult to build one because of some soil issues.

 

[Mikefln]

Apparently the soil is so bad that no one is allowed to have a vegetable garden. Plus the traffic is horrible.

 

[Pitt_Boss]

As a consumer, I can say the area around 79 & 50 is a traffic nightmare that makes me avoid everything in that area most of the time. Used to make an exception for Burgh Pizza & Wing every couple of months, before the quarantine. Luckily, I can get to 2 Brothers BBQ and the Golden Pig without going through that intersection, those are the two best places in that area.

 

[pitt-girl]

Newberry Market has been a strange deal from the word go. It was a very good concept but the developer, who is from Tennessee, was always pretty shady and I also think that township’s commissioners have made a lot of mistakes. Honestly, South Fayette should be a case study for how to mismanage a wonderful asset.

South Fayette is wonderful school district and a great area. I have plenty of friends and family to work and/or send their children to that school district. There are so many wonderful neighborhoods in that community. The northern equivalent, from where I sit, would probably be fine Pine Township.

However, unlike Pine, their commercial development simply has not kept pace with their population explosion and that has led to some incredibly high taxes.

For some people, the taxes are worth it to live in such an otherwise lovely community and to have such a great school district. However, for me, it’s just too lopsided and infrastructure is just too underdeveloped. Basically, to get in and out you have to go either 79 or 50, the latter of which is a parking lot on weekday mornings and afternoons.

When we were building our home, my wife and I strongly considered SF because it does have so much going for it. However, at the end of the day, the taxes and lack of local businesses were just a deal breaker for us.

We have close friends who just decided to put their house on the market in SF. It is INSANE how high the taxes are there. They finally got fed up. Lots of other options for great school districts.

 

[superstein61a]

Wow. So much misinformation on this thread. I don't even know where to begin.

I also think that township’s commissioners have made a lot of mistakes. Honestly, South Fayette should be a case study for how to mismanage a wonderful asset.

However, unlike Pine, their commercial development simply has not kept pace with their population explosion and that has led to some incredibly high taxes.

The commissioners had nothing to do with the management or mismanagement of Newbury Market. That was the shady developers led by Brett Malky who owned the land.

While it is true that the residential development in South Fayette has outpaced commercial development, that is because the nature of the township is primarily residential. There are only a few areas that are suitable for commercial development, mainly in the Rt 50 and I 79 area. A lot of that has had business / industrial parks built. Newbury is a brownfield site so that impacts building considerations and the old movie theater site next to the Children's Hospital facility was previously undermined posing some building issues

As to taxes, they are in the same ballpark as several surrounding communities. Yes, everyone would love lower taxes - but saying they are incredibly high is false.

I’ve heard there’s discussions about the southern beltway going through there one day so perhaps that could help. Did the fact that it was an old Koppers site detract some folks away? It just seems like that site had so much potential; they could treat the entrance to the shopping area as a town square since South Fayette Twp pretty much lacks one right now. Would make for a great entrance coming into the township off of 79.

It is just not discussion about the Southern Beltway - it has been under construction for the last couple of years on the border of South Fayette. And besides TopGolf and Carvana and 84 Lumber in the main part of Newbury Market, there was a group of shops built right off of 79 as the entrance to Newbury Market. The problem is the developers wanted a second anchor tenant which they have not been able to attract and the market the last 5 years has been terrible for retail - which would have made up most of the rest of the site.

I do recall hearing - it may have just been a rumor, maybe not - that the various environmental issues with the site ultimately scared off UPMC. Not sure how many hospitals are built on Superfund sites.

UPMC pulling out had zero to do with environmental issues. After their plans were approved, UPMC changed direction and decided to build the 3 specialty hospitals in the future rather than a couple of the smaller hospitals like the one they planned in South Fayette. Simply a different allocation of resources.

Apparently the soil is so bad that no one is allowed to have a vegetable garden. Plus the traffic is horrible.

LOL Are you out of your mind. There is no one living in the area that was the brownfield site - which is the only area of questionable soil given it used to be a chemical facility. Hence why it was designed for commercial development. There are no restrictions on vegetable gardens in South Fayette

As to traffic, traffic is not an issue except at rush hour. Then the Rt 50 and I79 area can get quite backed up, mainly due to people from multiple communities using the I79 Bridgeville exit. There is a multi year traffic improvement program that has been underway to help alleviate that by adding two extra lanes off the I79 exit, syncing traffic lights, expanding the bridge into Bridgeville to 7 lanes, etc, etc.

 

[GenesPlace]

As noted above, a significant part of why Newbury has struggled is due to the land remediation being more costly than planned for.

On the other side of Millers Run from Newbury, the redevelopment of the movie theater is about to begin. The soon to be approved development consists of several restaurants, stores and a little bit of office space. Hickory Grade and Old Pond Roads will be widened soon to accommodate the extra traffic and Millers Run will have a lengthened right turn lane to I-79.

The Charter Homes mixed use redevelopment of the old Mayview Site is in full swing too. Mayview Road will soon be widened for left turns into the Mayview project.

These are all projects I've done design work for. South Fayette is moving along quite well actually.

 

[superstein61a]

We have close friends who just decided to put their house on the market in SF. It is INSANE how high the taxes are there. They finally got fed up. Lots of other options for great school districts.

Like I said before, everyone would love lower taxes. But these are several surrounding or nearby communities school property millage. That is the price of living in this area

South Fayette - 26.7000
Upper St. Clair - 26.3775
South Park - 25.96
Mt Lebanon - 24.79
Bethel Park - 21.00

 

[pitt-girl]

Like I said before, everyone would love lower taxes. But these are several surrounding or nearby communities school property millage. That is the price of living in this area

South Fayette - 26.7000
Upper St. Clair - 26.3775
South Park - 25.96
Mt Lebanon - 24.79
Bethel Park - 21.00

Well all I can tell you is that here in Franklin Park (North Allegheny), our taxes are about 40% lower than our friends in SF with comparable home prices. Maybe we're just lucky - I don't know, but those numbers have held for the last 3 years.

(Just checked NA millage - went from 18.4557 mills up to 19.1408 in 2019.)

 

[superstein61a]

Well all I can tell you is that here in Franklin Park (North Allegheny), our taxes are about 40% lower than our friends in SF with comparable home prices. Maybe we're just lucky - I don't know, but those numbers have held for the last 3 years.

(Just checked NA millage - went from 18.4557 mills up to 19.1408 in 2019.)

Yes, there is a difference in the tax rates between the North Hills vs the South Hills. Pine Richland and Hampton's millage are similar to NA.

My point was, if you want to compare taxes you need to compare communities in the same vicinity. The communities around South Fayette are all in the same general ballpark as to taxes

 

[pitt-girl]

Yes, there is a difference in the tax rates between the North Hills vs the South Hills. Pine Richland and Hampton's millage are similar to NA.

My point was, if you want to compare taxes you need to compare communities in the same vicinity. The communities around South Fayette are all in the same general ballpark as to taxes

The question is why?

 

[HailtoPitt]

Millage rates for school districts is a stupid way to fund the schools. It's especially harmful for a struggling area because they tend to have low home values and high millage rates, and the result is nobody fixing up houses because the millage rate makes it cost prohibitive whenywhen home value increases.

When I lived in PGH my wife and I considered buying a home in the Wilkinsburg part of Regent Square. But once we realized how much the taxes would increase on a fixed up home, it was crazy expensive and we bought a home in the city instead.

 

[HailToPitt725]

As noted above, a significant part of why Newbury has struggled is due to the land remediation being more costly than planned for.

On the other side of Millers Run from Newbury, the redevelopment of the movie theater is about to begin. The soon to be approved development consists of several restaurants, stores and a little bit of office space. Hickory Grade and Old Pond Roads will be widened soon to accommodate the extra traffic and Millers Run will have a lengthened right turn lane to I-79.

The Charter Homes mixed use redevelopment of the old Mayview Site is in full swing too. Mayview Road will soon be widened for left turns into the Mayview project.

These are all projects I've done design work for. South Fayette is moving along quite well actually.

Is it true that they’re moving ahead with a new community center? IIRC they have their town hall, library, and police department all under one roof; the plan I recall hearing is that they’d put the community center there and then build a new facility for the other services.

I’ve seen some of their parks and rec project proposals. They seem very nice and I like the idea of a trail system connecting the entire township.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Thanks for the post, that all sounds familiar. I’ve heard there’s discussions about the southern beltway going through there one day so perhaps that could help. Did the fact that it was an old Koppers site detract some folks away? It just seems like that site had so much potential; they could treat the entrance to the shopping area as a town square since South Fayette Twp pretty much lacks one right now. Would make for a great entrance coming into the township off of 79.

We were actually close to moving there around 2013, before we decided on Kansas City. Loved the countryside and the hills, but to me some of the neighborhoods seemed too homogenized from a architectural standpoint and the lots weren’t huge for what you were paying. We looked at a development across the street from their campus (which is really nice) and the lots were pretty cramped. When we moved out here, we were able to get a house for around the same price with twice as much square footage.

Yeah, we had the exact same experience. We even looked at homes in the same neighborhood: It’s called The Berkshires and it is literally right across the street from the entire school district.

However, we walked away for all the same reasons you did. The homes and the lots were too small for what we were getting and the taxes were straight up CRAZY. Also, there were no close grocery stores, shopping options, etc. It has improved a little bit since then but not by nearly enough.

I still think it is a lovely neighborhood and a wonderful school district. However, ultimately, we decided it was not a fit for our family.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Yeah, we had the exact same experience. We even looked at homes in the same neighborhood: It’s called The Berkshires and it is literally right across the street from the entire school district.

However, we walked away for all the same reasons you did. The homes and the lots were too small for what we were getting and the taxes were straight up CRAZY. Also, there were no close grocery stores, shopping options, etc. It has improved a little bit since then but not by nearly enough.

I still think it is a lovely neighborhood and a wonderful school district. However, ultimately, we decided it was not a fit for our family.

Yup, that was the neighborhood we looked at. Even if we were to hypothetically move back one day, I’m not sure if South Fayette would be an option even if the commercial revenue caught up.

We were looking at smaller school districts and, last time I checked, SF might not be considered “small” much longer. I read a few months back that there’s plans to build a new elementary school and add onto the high school. And I’m not talking about the relatively new intermediate school; apparently they’ve outgrown the current elementary school. That’s certainly not a bad problem to have, though.

 

[superstein61a]

The question is why?

Well, a number of factors go into it, but I suspect the biggest factors are:

1. those three communities I mentioned in the north have major highways running through them with lots more commercial development than the ones I mentioned in the south hills. While Upper St Clair and Mt Lebo has Rt 19 running through it with busy development, they still don't compare to their counterparts in the north

2. Enrollment size - it is more efficient and cheaper on a per student basis to run a NA with over 8300 students vs a South Fayette with about 3,200. Add in that South Fayette is one of the few school districts that has been growing a lot which has meant they have had to build new buildings and expand other facilities several times

3. Population makeup - you also have to look at the makeup of each district's population - how many families have school age children vs those that don't. Districts with more families with school age children will naturally have higher taxes as you don't have as many empty nesters funding the schools

 

[pitt-girl]

Well, a number of factors go into it, but I suspect the biggest factors are:

1. those three communities I mentioned in the north have major highways running through them with lots more commercial development than the ones I mentioned in the south hills. While Upper St Clair and Mt Lebo has Rt 19 running through it with busy development, they still don't compare to their counterparts in the north

2. Enrollment size - it is more efficient and cheaper on a per student basis to run a NA with over 8300 students vs a South Fayette with about 3,200. Add in that South Fayette is one of the few school districts that has been growing a lot which has meant they have had to build new buildings and expand other facilities several times

3. Population makeup - you also have to look at the makeup of each district's population - how many families have school age children vs those that don't. Districts with more families with school age children will naturally have higher taxes as you don't have as many empty nesters funding the schools

Interesting - thanks for the info. I grew up in the South Hills although I went to Catholic schools. We moved to the North Hills for proximity to the airport and lucked into a great school district since it was pre-kids and not on our radar.

Hampton is a small school district - I think somewhere around 2800 total students? They've managed to make it one of the best in the area. So I suspect it must have more to do with location.

 

[superstein61a]

Interesting - thanks for the info. I grew up in the South Hills although I went to Catholic schools. We moved to the North Hills for proximity to the airport and lucked into a great school district since it was pre-kids and not on our radar.

Hampton is a small school district - I think somewhere around 2800 total students? They've managed to make it one of the best in the area. So I suspect it must have more to do with location.

Yeah, I think Hampton benefits from Route 8 and the commercial development there

 

[pitt-girl]

Yeah, I think Hampton benefits from Route 8 and the commercial development there

I think SF is a great area. Our friends have a beautiful house. But their monthly taxes alone equaled 75% of our total mortgage. I think that's insane but I can understand being loyal to the area you live in.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

People can certainly chose to live where they prefer-

but I always find the “great schools” as a priority is silly.

your child’s performance is most closely associated with parental involvement .

when we moved back was given some great advise from a friend in dc .
Don’t try to manage all the variables - find a house you like in a neighborhood you like -
There are ways of managing schools.

 

[superstein61a]

I think SF is a great area. Our friends have a beautiful house. But their monthly taxes alone equaled 75% of our total mortgage. I think that's insane but I can understand being loyal to the area you live in.

Thanks. Yes, I happen to have grown up in the South Hills and like the general area. So from my standpoint, I want to live in the South Hills and when I look at the various communities in the South Hills that I would consider, they are all pretty similar in terms of taxes. Now, that said we built our house in South Fayette 30 years ago in a great location. Our neighborhood was the first higher end neighborhood developed in South Fayette and consists of all custom built homes from a variety of builders. For whatever reason our appraised value is reasonable so our overall taxes our reasonable.

I am quite shocked when I see what homes in various homogenous developments like the Ryan Homes developed Berkshires that was mentioned earlier sell for compared to my neighborhood where every home is different. I get that they are newer developments but the difference between the developments and the homes is pretty significant. And I am not putting down Ryan Homes or other homogenous developments as there are some very nice houses in some of them. Just noting there is a difference compared to a neighborhood of custom designed homes

I know if I had to pay the price in one of these new developments - and assuming the tax appraisal is commensurate with the selling price, I would probably find a different area to look

 

[Cavalier Panther]

Well all I can tell you is that here in Franklin Park (North Allegheny), our taxes are about 40% lower than our friends in SF with comparable home prices. Maybe we're just lucky - I don't know, but those numbers have held for the last 3 years.

(Just checked NA millage - went from 18.4557 mills up to 19.1408 in 2019.)

Millage rates are one thing, but the real driver is home prices. You can easily buy a home for $400,000 in Franklin park, and that's still double the median home price in Allegheny County. In SF proper, you just cannot buy a home for $400,000, which is crazy to think of.

I used to be in D.C. where home prices aren't SF bad, but are higher than here. My home would probably have cost a million dollars in a D.C. suburb like Mclean or Silver Springs. It's a fine house but it's nothing crazy (I also live in the North Hills but not quite in Franklin Park).

 

[HailtoPitt]

People can certainly chose to live where they prefer-

but I always find the “great schools” as a priority is silly.

your child’s performance is most closely associated with parental involvement .

when we moved back was given some great advise from a friend in dc .
Don’t try to manage all the variables - find a house you like in a neighborhood you like -
There are ways of managing schools.

That's probably more true in the city where there are more options. Not sure if the same holds true everywhere.

 

[pitt-girl]

People can certainly chose to live where they prefer-

but I always find the “great schools” as a priority is silly.

your child’s performance is most closely associated with parental involvement .

when we moved back was given some great advise from a friend in dc .
Don’t try to manage all the variables - find a house you like in a neighborhood you like -
There are ways of managing schools.

We all have our own priorities when picking a place to live. I wouldn't judge any of them as being "silly".

 

[superstein61a]

Millage rates are one thing, but the real driver is home prices. You can easily buy a home for $400,000 in Franklin park, and that's still double the median home price in Allegheny County. In SF proper, you just cannot buy a home for $400,000, which is crazy to think of.

Ummm - not sure what you are talking about - I see currently 36 homes available for $350K to $450K in SF including new construction in the Hastings development and a Ryan development.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/South-Fayette-Township_PA/price-350000-450000

Conversely I see 20 available in Franklin Park

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Franklin-Park_PA/price-350000-450000

A lot depends on timing. Many existing residents like it here so you don't see high turnover of houses

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

We all have our own priorities when picking a place to live. I wouldn't judge any of them as being "silly".

I’d only say the data is pretty conclusive that academic performance is tied to family engagement .
I’ve met plenty of brilliant people from bad schools and plenty of morons from top schools - and every variable along the spectrum

ya like the neighborhood , the development , the area -
All relevant .
How many people live in a house and area they hate - but because the schools are good?

 

[GenesPlace]

I'd say it's more important to focus on school performance as it relates to the resale value of your house. I don't have kids, but the reputation of the schools in Mt. Lebanon help protect our investment and help the value to increase. We bought our house for $380K 3 years ago and it's easily worth over $400k now.

I’d only say the data is pretty conclusive that academic performance is tied to family engagement .
I’ve met plenty of brilliant people from bad schools and plenty of morons from top schools - and every variable along the spectrum

ya like the neighborhood , the development , the area -
All relevant .
How many people live in a house and area they hate - but because the schools are good?

 

[pitt-girl]

I’d only say the data is pretty conclusive that academic performance is tied to family engagement .
I’ve met plenty of brilliant people from bad schools and plenty of morons from top schools - and every variable along the spectrum

ya like the neighborhood , the development , the area -
All relevant .
How many people live in a house and area they hate - but because the schools are good?

Cool.

I'm proud of our school district and think my children greatly benefitted. You don't think it's important - that's fine too. Everyone has their own priorities.

 

[pitt-girl]

I'd say it's more important to focus on school performance as it relates to the resale value of your house. I don't have kids, but the reputation of the schools in Mt. Lebanon help protect our investment and help the value to increase. We bought our house for $380K 3 years ago and it's easily worth over $400k now.

This is very true. Our house has almost tripled in price since 1996. We got very, very lucky.

 

[superstein61a]

I'd say it's more important to focus on school performance as it relates to the resale value of your house.

I agree with this 110%

 

[Cavalier Panther]

Ummm - not sure what you are talking about - I see currently 36 homes available for $350K to $450K in SF including new construction in the Hastings development and a Ryan development.

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/South-Fayette-Township_PA/price-350000-450000

Conversely I see 20 available in Franklin Park

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Franklin-Park_PA/price-350000-450000

A lot depends on timing. Many existing residents like it here so you don't see high turnover of houses

Holy shit I thought SF was San Francisco.

But damn, are being really moving for 5 or 6 millage points? That's like a thousand bucks a year on $350,000 home. After you pay closing costs to sell your home, closing costs on a new home, and moving expenses, you're looking at close to 20 years to break even. Hardly seems worth it.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I'd say it's more important to focus on school performance as it relates to the resale value of your house. I don't have kids, but the reputation of the schools in Mt. Lebanon help protect our investment and help the value to increase. We bought our house for $380K 3 years ago and it's easily worth over $400k now.

I’d say that’s not necessarily true of the school district .

we bought put home in the city which will be 4 years ago this December .
Our value is substantially higher . Our realtor joked when we closed in November 2016 “if you decide you don’t like it , you can sell for $50k more in the spring “

it’s more about the neighborhood .

 

[GenesPlace]

Agreed. Look no further than property values in several neighborhoods within the City of Pittsburgh. That's why I left it as an important factor, but certainly not the only one.

I’d say that’s not necessarily true of the school district .

we bought put home in the city which will be 4 years ago this December .
Our value is substantially higher . Our realtor joked when we closed in November 2016 “if you decide you don’t like it , you can sell for $50k more in the spring “

it’s more about the neighborhood .

 

[superstein61a]

I’d say that’s not necessarily true of the school district .

we bought put home in the city which will be 4 years ago this December .
Our value is substantially higher . Our realtor joked when we closed in November 2016 “if you decide you don’t like it , you can sell for $50k more in the spring “

it’s more about the neighborhood .

Depends on the area. Virtually no one is moving to the City because of the City of Pittsburgh School District. Many people in the suburbs however do choose localities where the school district is a big factor

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Depends on the area. Virtually no one is moving to the City because of the City of Pittsburgh School District. Many people in the suburbs however do choose localities where the school district is a big factor

Well - it’s more of a comfort level with the demographics of the school district

my son is excelling at his pittsburgh public school .

 

[pittchagg]

Well - it’s more of a comfort level with the demographics of the school district

my son is excelling at his pittsburgh public school .

I live in Squirrel Hill and for sale signs disappear in less than a week. Usually families with kids moving in. But we’re in the Colfax zone, so we’re comparable to any elementary school in the suburbs by whatever numbers they’re using these days.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

I live in Squirrel Hill and for sale signs disappear in less than a week. Usually families with kids moving in. But we’re in the Colfax zone, so we’re comparable to any elementary school in the suburbs by whatever numbers they’re using these days.

Colfax is great
My son is at Dilworth and we love it