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OT: Historical Pittsburgh sports question for those before my time

HailToPitt725

HailToPitt725

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May 16, 2016
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Why did the city use eminent domain to bulldoze the lower Hill District and construct Civic Arena? Why couldn’t they have just built it on the North Side where there was vacant land? Even if the Pirates already had plans to leave Forbes Field and were looking at that same site, there would’ve been more than enough room to build both a stadium and an arena.

That seems like it would’ve made much more sense than bulldozing one of the nation’s most culturally significant African American neighborhoods via eminent domain in the name of urban renewal. Was there any discussion regarding alternative sites for the project? I couldn’t find anything online, but I’m sure there’s more to the story.
 
Franb said:
Do you have any evidence to back up that statement?
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I’m not going to attempt to answer your question directly, but I wonder how much influence the Civic Light Opera had? After all, the Civic Arena was originally built for them. Ironic that they tore down the Hill District for the CLO, only for the CLO to not even stay there long-term due to acoustic issues.
 
Can someone explain to me how there are not dozens of good bar/restaurants across the street from PPG Paints Arena on Fifth Avenue? There's like 200 events per year and a university one block up. How is it possible that you cant make money putting a restaurant right there? I'm not sure there's another NBA/NHL arena in the US without a restaurant in the immediate area.
 
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Sean Miller Fan said:
Can someone explain to me how there are not dozens of good bar/restaurants across the street from PPG Paints Arena on Fifth Avenue? There's like 200 events per year and a university one block up. How is it possible that you cant make money putting a restaurant right there? I'm not sure there's another NBA/NHL arena in the US without a restaurant in the immediate area.
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If I had to guess, the Penguins stalled on developing the land because they were making more than enough money by just using the space for parking.

It’s a shame that such a pivotal location in the core of the city has remained desolate for so long. I just hope the current plan comes to fruition at this point.
 
HailToPitt725 said:
If I had to guess, the Penguins stalled on developing the land because they were making more than enough money by just using the space for parking.

It’s a shame that such a pivotal location in the core of the city has remained desolate for so long. I just hope the current plan comes to fruition at this point.
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It should also be noted that the only people who don't think there are any bars or restaurants near PPG are people who have never been in the area.

Although I haven't really been down there since covid, I guess it's possible that they all closed due to covid and none of them have reopened.
 
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HailToPitt725 said:
If I had to guess, the Penguins stalled on developing the land because they were making more than enough money by just using the space for parking.

It’s a shame that such a pivotal location in the core of the city has remained desolate for so long. I just hope the current plan comes to fruition at this point.
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What's the current plan? It is unfathomable that you cant go to like a Buffalo Wild Wings type restaurant pre or post game. There should be 10 of those side by side. I have been to a ton of arena districts and I cant think of one without restaurants right there. You cant just blame the Penguins. If a restaurant thought they could make money, they would rent a spot there. I guess no one feels they can make money? But why?
 
Sean Miller Fan said:
What's the current plan? It is unfathomable that you cant go to like a Buffalo Wild Wings type restaurant pre or post game. There should be 10 of those side by side. I have been to a ton of arena districts and I cant think of one without restaurants right there. You cant just blame the Penguins. If a restaurant thought they could make money, they would rent a spot there. I guess no one feels they can make money? But why?
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Do you really think that there is no place to get something to eat or drink within a block or two of PPG?

Good god man, pull up google maps and take a look.
 
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it's a terrible location, is now and was dating back to civic arena days. just an absolute Pain in the butt to get in and out of. now especially with 5th being a construction zone but was always like that.

no room to put in the cookie cutter sports bars serving 32 ounce beers with cheese sticks and big screen tvs either..

and sadly, it did just obliterate what was a historical community. before my time but i've read some cool books on the topic of the demise of the lower hill district due to this..

so many better options on location, just an all around cluster F..
 
I asked a track teammate of mine who I know has a wealth of knowledge about Pittsburgh’s African American community.

His answer included:

“I first "had my coat pulled" (an African American expression) by Rev.Gregory Greene, whose Dad was a Math teacher, very upscale for "our folks." He sent me to the Hill Carnegie Library, where I asked for a Civic Arena file. I still have copies of articles from there saying plans for the Lower Hill District Development began as early as 1945. . . In Pittsburgh, by 1957, Mayor David Lawrence, State Senator Joe Barr, Allegheny County Housing Authority member William Moorehead, business leader Edgar Kaufman and others, plans, which labelled the Lower Hill, not excluding 3000 member Bethel AME, as "Urban blight." This, Bethel AME did not enjoy high esteem. State Representative Homer Brown was in the 1950's, one of the few Negroes in an elected position.”

Hope that sheds a little more light -
 
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Franb said:
So it's just an opinion, then. Did the people whose property was bought up make a big profit?
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If they did, then people got paid.

If they didn't, then other people took advantage and... got paid.

To sum up... what's best for the community often goes out the window when the right people can benefit. For example, look at how the T extension to Oakland was nixed but the Rooney's got the billion dollar extension to the Northshore approved. One option was better for more people, the other was better for the Rooney's and the parking company. Which one was built?
 
ChazzMo said:
I asked a track teammate of mine who I know has a wealth of knowledge about Pittsburgh’s African American community.

His answer included:

“I first "had my coat pulled" (an African American expression) by Rev.Gregory Greene, whose Dad was a Math teacher, very upscale for "our folks." He sent me to the Hill Carnegie Library, where I asked for a Civic Arena file. I still have copies of articles from there saying plans for the Lower Hill District Development began as early as 1945. . . In Pittsburgh, by 1957, Mayor David Lawrence, State Senator Joe Barr, Allegheny County Housing Authority member William Moorehead, business leader Edgar Kaufman and others, plans, which labelled the Lower Hill, not excluding 3000 member Bethel AME, as "Urban blight." This, Bethel AME did not enjoy high esteem. State Representative Homer Brown was in the 1950's, one of the few Negroes in an elected position.”

Hope that sheds a little more light -
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This is a great historical insight- thanks for reaching out. It seems as if it was an inevitability and the CLO needing a new arena was allowed them to pull the trigger.
 
Sean Miller Fan said:
What's the current plan? It is unfathomable that you cant go to like a Buffalo Wild Wings type restaurant pre or post game. There should be 10 of those side by side. I have been to a ton of arena districts and I cant think of one without restaurants right there. You cant just blame the Penguins. If a restaurant thought they could make money, they would rent a spot there. I guess no one feels they can make money? But why?
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Here’s the current plan. There’s some good renderings in there. In addition to residential and commercial development (they’re currently constructing the new First National Bank tower), it will include a new live entertainment district/venue (think Stage AE but bigger) and there’s going to be a lot of room for retail/restaurants.
 
HailToPitt725 said:
This is a great historical insight- thanks for reaching out. It seems as if it was an inevitability and the CLO needing a new arena was allowed them to pull the trigger.
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Interesting fact…. The Civic Light Opera (CLO) was held outdoors in none other than Pitt Stadium.
The idea for an arena with a retractable roof was adopted to mimic the CLO’s history of performing under the stars and thus, Pittsburgh’s Civic Arena was designed and constructed in a area contiguous with the downtown area of the city. Problem was the acoustics of the open area building were terrible and the CLO never took off in the Civic Arena. Instead, it was turned into a sports palace and the rest is history
 
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HailtoPitt said:
If they did, then people got paid.

If they didn't, then other people took advantage and... got paid.

To sum up... what's best for the community often goes out the window when the right people can benefit. For example, look at how the T extension to Oakland was nixed but the Rooney's got the billion dollar extension to the Northshore approved. One option was better for more people, the other was better for the Rooney's and the parking company. Which one was built?
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And you still have not provided any actual evidence to back up your claim. Just conspiracy theories.

And please tell me, how exactly, the Rooney’s benefited from the T going to North Side? The Steelers have been sold out for decades, so they did not need any assistance to sell tickets. It was never a case of one or the other.
 
Franb said:
And you still have not provided any actual evidence to back up your claim. Just conspiracy theories.

And please tell me, how exactly, the Rooney’s benefited from the T going to North Side? The Steelers have been sold out for decades, so they did not need any assistance to sell tickets. It was never a case of one or the other.
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What they needed isn't relevant. Take your pick at their reasoning. Doesn't matter. What matters is that they, in fact, did push the politicians to make it happen. The politicians got their marching orders and then turned around and told people it would extend to the Northside neighborhood as an incentive to get approval, but of course once the project was approved, the extension was reduced to end at the Steelers stadium. Disgusting.
 
I think a subway to Oakland would be wonderful. Start from downtown, take it out to Squirrel Hill, then Shadyside, and back.

It would go past 5 colleges and a multitude of hospitals. It's just so logical.
 
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PITT 76 said:
I think a subway to Oakland would be wonderful. Start from downtown, take it out to Squirrel Hill, then Shadyside, and back.

It would go past 5 colleges and a multitude of hospitals. It's just so logical.
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Sorry. Rooneys wanted their extension. Universities and hospitals be damned. There are Steelers games that some people will take the T to 8 games per year.
 
HailtoPitt said:
What they needed isn't relevant. Take your pick at their reasoning. Doesn't matter. What matters is that they, in fact, did push the politicians to make it happen. The politicians got their marching orders and then turned around and told people it would extend to the Northside neighborhood as an incentive to get approval, but of course once the project was approved, the extension was reduced to end at the Steelers stadium. Disgusting.
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As I said, this is just a conspiracy theory, based on speculation. You actually think that the Rooney's have more political weight than the Oakland institutions, which is laughable. And you are reducing a very complex issue - that of public transit and its cost/benefits, to a simple factor - the Rooney's wanted something and everyone else was ignored.
 
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HailtoPitt said:
Sorry. Rooneys wanted their extension. Universities and hospitals be damned. There are Steelers games that some people will take the T to 8 games per year.
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How many extra fans did the extension bring to Steeler games? The answer is zero. Not 1 person went to a game, who would not have gone if the T did not run to the stadium.
 
Franb said:
You actually think that the Rooney's have more political weight than the Oakland institutions, which is laughable.
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If you pay much attention to the local political scene you know that Pitt and UPMC don't really have any political weight locally. They are, and have been for a long time, the boogeymen that local politicians use as a punching bag to score political points.

The Rooney's have more political weight than them simply because something is more than nothing.
 
HailtoPitt said:
Sorry. Rooneys wanted their extension. Universities and hospitals be damned. There are Steelers games that some people will take the T to 8 games per year.
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i took the T home after a steeler game last year, i cant begin to explain how horrible of an experience it really is.. i had my little guy with me but if i didnt, i'd have literally just started walking home, stopping at every bar on the way, over enduring that..

i mean it, no exaggeration, an absolute terrible terrible experience..just an hour and a half single file line going up the stairs and waiting for a T..
 
Franb said:
As I said, this is just a conspiracy theory, based on speculation. You actually think that the Rooney's have more political weight than the Oakland institutions, which is laughable. And you are reducing a very complex issue - that of public transit and its cost/benefits, to a simple factor - the Rooney's wanted something and everyone else was ignored.
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Not a theory. Fact. And yes, the Rooney's do have more weight, at least they did in the past. Do your research before calling it a conspiracy theory. What I said happened is actually what happened.
 
Zeldas Open Roof said:
i took the T home after a steeler game last year, i cant begin to explain how horrible of an experience it really is.. i had my little guy with me but if i didnt, i'd have literally just started walking home, stopping at every bar on the way, over enduring that..

i mean it, no exaggeration, an absolute terrible terrible experience..just an hour and a half single file line going up the stairs and waiting for a T..
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Yep. Builing an extension for the Steelers was stupid. Local rail is best for going to areas where people live and need it for getting to and from work, or living their daily lives. Not for high demand events. Oakland was the perfect location to do it, but nope.

Next we will hear an argument about how it's useful because people drive in to the Northshore from the North Hills only to park, get onto the T and go to work downtown. Of course, that has to be subsudized (aka free) to get people to use it, and the parking companies make lots of money from it.
 
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HailtoPitt said:
Yep. Builing an extension for the Steelers was stupid. Local rail is best for going to areas where people live and need it for getting to and from work, or living their daily lives. Not for high demand events. Oakland was the perfect location to do it, but nope.

Next we will hear an argument about how it's useful because people drive in to the Northshore from the North Hills only to park, get onto the T and go to work downtown. Of course, that has to be subsudized (aka free) to get people to use it, and the parking companies make lots of money from it.
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driving into the north shore for steelers games/pirate games was never an issue, that's what i dont understand. we've been doing it for decades and decades, all of us on here. it was never really that hard at all. i've been going to bucco / steeler games since the 80s and again, was never that hard.

to spend what? hundreds of millions of dollars to solve a problem that never existed is weird to me.. it's not like it's gonna sell more tickets to either or make it a more pleasant experience or bring in more money. just a waste..

the workforce in north shore too, not that hard. i work in the north shorte for 6 years, it's not that hard.
 
Zeldas Open Roof said:
driving into the north shore for steelers games/pirate games was never an issue, that's what i dont understand. we've been doing it for decades and decades, all of us on here. it was never really that hard at all.
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Yeah but it gives the SEA and the Steelers an excuse for getting rid of surface lot after surface lot so that they can develop the area.

One of the justifications for the T to the North Shore was that it could be part of a spur that would extend to the airport. I haven't heard anything in years about that being a possibility, but Port Authority/PRT, local politicians, and whoever else has enough clout should be trying to get funding to connect that to the airport as well as build a line to Oakland (and ignore this bus rapid transit thing).
 
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Joe the Panther Fan said:
Do you really think that there is no place to get something to eat or drink within a block or two of PPG?

Good god man, pull up google maps and take a look.
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I have to disagree. There might be a couple places, but it literally sucks around the arena. I picked up a business colleague at the Marriott last week and we drove to a desirable place to congregate. His words to me were “the arena is right there there has to be dozens of places right here within a block to walk to”. Then he checked the map on his phone and the yelp app and said “I’ve never seen an arena district with less options”.

What would be cool as hell as if they built a 21st century Crawford Grill that brought in jazz musicians and had a Pittsburgh Crawfords/Homestead Grays HOF adjacent to it.
 
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