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OT: in other news, at least we aren't...

CrazyPaco

Athletic Director
Jul 5, 2001
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What’s happening at WVU in particular is really sad. Just a total bloodbath down there. I know we rip on WVU, but to see a state flagship institution in a state that needs more educational opportunities, not less, and that’s focused so heavily on educating West Virginia residents, go down in flames like this is really crappy to see.
 
Hey PSU, just keep renovating buildings and adding new buildings and expanding. Just keep spending that money. At least the $700,000,000 for the football stadium was approved and being paid off by the athletic department. LOL

All they have to do is raise the student activity fee from $300 per student to …..oh say about $2,700 and they can pay for the upgrades. Hey mom and dad, get out the check book.
 
BREAKING NEWS:

WVU announces a new fundraiser to support the Humanities Department.

Any Hoopie family that donates $5,000 will receive these designer Holiday Pajamas SIGNED BY BOB HUGGINS!

Sizes up to 6XL!

PJSETNCUGWV_g3_800x.jpg
 
Hey PSU, just keep renovating buildings and adding new buildings and expanding. Just keep spending that money. At least the $700,000,000 for the football stadium was approved and being paid off by the athletic department. LOL

All they have to do is raise the student activity fee from $300 per student to …..oh say about $2,700 and they can pay for the upgrades. Hey mom and dad, get out the check book.
PA taxpayers “bracing for the PSU tax increase”
 
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Universities globally are struggling. The ROI on many degrees just isn't worth it anymore.
As well it should. I am not anti education. I am anti getting 6 figures in debt for degrees that could never recoup that. And as someone who went to a Liberal Arts school, and I see the value of balancing education with classes that are for your field of study with some that provides some balance, there is too much garbage. Colleges have become too much for Profit.

WVU specifically since I know it well, had a great op/ed in their student newspaper. They essentially will take any student in state who can read or write and place them at WVU. What this has done is led to incredibly low graduation rates, and terms stretched out to 6 years as some of these kids had no business being at that level. At least community college could weed some of these out. But WVU fell in love with the money.

On that note, as we bring back manufacturing and technology offshored over the past decades, we need good advisors, guidance counselors (okay I will pause for laughter) and teachers and parents themselves celebrating trades and skills that can afford people a really good living without the debt and also fulfill needed jobs for our economy. We need to remove the stigma of trade workers.

I am not poking fun at "the world needs ditch diggers too" (it does) but the world needs machinists, electricians, welders, plumbers, millwrights, etc.....all who can likely make $75-100K a year in their mid 20's, which is alot better than many college graduates.
 
The other thing. All 3 "local" P5 Schools had headlines:

The aforementioned WVU news with cuts to their programs.

Project Spotlight highlighting that Penn State has the worst gender pay gap in the Big 10.

University of Pittsburgh coming up with a revolutionary vaccine to fight breast cancer.

Winning.........
 
The other thing. All 3 "local" P5 Schools had headlines:

The aforementioned WVU news with cuts to their programs.

Project Spotlight highlighting that Penn State has the worst gender pay gap in the Big 10.

University of Pittsburgh coming up with a revolutionary vaccine to fight breast cancer.

Winning.........
We shouldn't get too cocky though. With Pitt's state funding at an impasse in Harrisburg, hiring freezes and such for Pitt are probably not too far off unless that gets resolved soon.
 
I read somewhere about a PSU admin making 500k and it wasn’t the President or second in command.
My guess is some surgeon or other doctor at the med center. The list of highest paid employees is mostly those types from what I remember.
 
As well it should. I am not anti education. I am anti getting 6 figures in debt for degrees that could never recoup that. And as someone who went to a Liberal Arts school, and I see the value of balancing education with classes that are for your field of study with some that provides some balance, there is too much garbage. Colleges have become too much for Profit.

WVU specifically since I know it well, had a great op/ed in their student newspaper. They essentially will take any student in state who can read or write and place them at WVU. What this has done is led to incredibly low graduation rates, and terms stretched out to 6 years as some of these kids had no business being at that level. At least community college could weed some of these out. But WVU fell in love with the money.

On that note, as we bring back manufacturing and technology offshored over the past decades, we need good advisors, guidance counselors (okay I will pause for laughter) and teachers and parents themselves celebrating trades and skills that can afford people a really good living without the debt and also fulfill needed jobs for our economy. We need to remove the stigma of trade workers.

I am not poking fun at "the world needs ditch diggers too" (it does) but the world needs machinists, electricians, welders, plumbers, millwrights, etc.....all who can likely make $75-100K a year in their mid 20's, which is alot better than many college graduates.
Plumbers Making 125K Electricians 125K Havc Techs 125K. Union Rate for machine operators 58.00 per hr with benefits. Union Pipefitters make 180K a year. Someone with a crappy Liberal arts degree making 40K working for the county or state…. And they have 100K in debt…
 
As well it should. I am not anti education. I am anti getting 6 figures in debt for degrees that could never recoup that. And as someone who went to a Liberal Arts school, and I see the value of balancing education with classes that are for your field of study with some that provides some balance, there is too much garbage. Colleges have become too much for Profit.

WVU specifically since I know it well, had a great op/ed in their student newspaper. They essentially will take any student in state who can read or write and place them at WVU. What this has done is led to incredibly low graduation rates, and terms stretched out to 6 years as some of these kids had no business being at that level. At least community college could weed some of these out. But WVU fell in love with the money.

On that note, as we bring back manufacturing and technology offshored over the past decades, we need good advisors, guidance counselors (okay I will pause for laughter) and teachers and parents themselves celebrating trades and skills that can afford people a really good living without the debt and also fulfill needed jobs for our economy. We need to remove the stigma of trade workers.

I am not poking fun at "the world needs ditch diggers too" (it does) but the world needs machinists, electricians, welders, plumbers, millwrights, etc.....all who can likely make $75-100K a year in their mid 20's, which is alot better than many college graduates.
Well said. In the end, the market will tell us what is needed and what is not in the form of wages. Undergraduate degrees in sociology pretty much useless (at least from an economic perspective). The days of simply going to a reasonably good University, getting a liberal arts degree and assuming that this was the ticket to future success are long over. The idea of a business getting expenses in line with revenues is a concept that seems to have escaped academia.

I'll raise one last point regarding cost control in academia. The landscape in higher ed is changing rapidly. A number of well regarded universities (eg, CMU, GA Tech....) are offering their curriculum on-line for a fraction of the cost of traditional campus-based education. I have a good friend who is going for his masters in comp sci at Georgia Tech....doing it all on-line...1/3 the cost. If you follow this to it's conclusion, why do we need 5K colleges and universities in the US? Why would a kid do their comp sci degree on campus at Slippery Rock if they can save 60% and finish with a degree from Georgia Tech? Delivering classes online eliminates most of the bandwidth issues...the idea of competing for limited admission slots makes no sense in a digital world. Admit larger numbers and let the work dictate who will graduate and who won't. Anyway, academia is probably one of the last industries that has not had their core business model disrupted. The results has been costs that have outstripped inflation and fueled by ever rising loans and subsidies. This model is unsustainable. Change comes slowly to academia but it is coming.
 
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Hey PSU, just keep renovating buildings and adding new buildings and expanding. Just keep spending that money. At least the $700,000,000 for the football stadium was approved and being paid off by the athletic department. LOL

All they have to do is raise the student activity fee from $300 per student to …..oh say about $2,700 and they can pay for the upgrades. Hey mom and dad, get out the check book.
The sad thing is, it isn’t Mom and Dad paying that. It’s the kids taking out student loans and the student loan companies paying that activity fee. And you as a student, pay that back with compounding interest.
 
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Plumbers Making 125K Electricians 125K Havc Techs 125K. Union Rate for machine operators 58.00 per hr with benefits. Union Pipefitters make 180K a year. Someone with a crappy Liberal arts degree making 40K working for the county or state…. And they have 100K in debt…
That's my point they are working in Starbuck's.
 
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My daughter is going to community college for the first two years:free. Followed by two years to finish her bachelor’s in-state for free. Our state has free college for kids with good grades and a rigorous class schedule. Her school also offered dual enrollment classes. She bitched at the time about the extra work, but she graduated high school with her first year of college completed.

Paying absurd amounts for college is senseless. Wife went to W&J undergrad before med school. I went to Pitt. She laments the money she wasted undergrad. I even lament not getting my general ed requirements at community college for practically nothing before starting at Pitt.

Unless you’re pursuing a professional degree, college is a big expense with little payoff. Lots of CAS graduates work at Starbucks and Lowe’s.
 
Plumbers Making 125K Electricians 125K Havc Techs 125K. Union Rate for machine operators 58.00 per hr with benefits. Union Pipefitters make 180K a year. Someone with a crappy Liberal arts degree making 40K working for the county or state…. And they have 100K in debt…
Any boy half-decent with his hands would be dumb to go to college unless he’s pursuing a professional degree. A skilled tradesman has limitless work opportunities and the ability to start his own business and work for himself. All with little to no educational debt. It’s a no-brainer.
 
Maybe Paco has the accurate data but this category of number of students per university employees is around 1 employee per 3.9 students. This is for almost all of the major universities around the country. Thats way out of line.
 
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Maybe Paco has the accurate data but this category of number of students per university employees is around 1 employee per 3.9 students. This is for almost all of the major universities around the country. Thats way out of line.
Well, it depends how you count employees. Are you counting research associates (lab technicians) and post-docs? You have a lot of researchers, technicians, grants specialists, administrative staff, security, maintenance and cleaning staff just in the health science schools whose job is primarily just to support the research being done there and are largely paid directly or from the overheads from grant awards being won by faculty. Those numbers are going to skew any major research university like Pitt. Then you have people in an athletic departments, maintenance and grounds keeping, business offices, stores, etc. Large universities do a lot more than just teach undergrads. So you can oversimplify the ratio but it is largely from a place of not understanding the myriad of enterprises that major universities are involved in and how those things operate.

If you just look at Pitt's most education-centric unit, the Dietrich School of Arts & Sciences, and eliminate research associates and postdocs (remember, still a lot of research done in Dietrich with the Departments of Neuroscience, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Psychology, etc), then the ratio of full time faculty and staff to students is 1 to 10.3. But if one does the same for the School of Medicine, using the same criteria, the ratio is completely reversed: 3.9 to 1. Note that 48% of full-time, non-postdoc Pitt faculty and staff at the Pittsburgh campus reside in the six schools of the health sciences, while these six schools have only 19% of the total students. So, without understanding why these completely disparate ratios exist as they do, such numbers are pretty useless to throw around and serve primarily for use as unsubstantiated talking points. I state this not to directly criticize your reference to these numbers, but as a general warning, for anyone on any topic, to consider looking deeper when anyone spits out statistics to promote a particular, and especially politically charged, point of view.
 
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Either way there is probably a few too many people in administrative positions and those that support those administrators than what is really needed
 
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Well, it depends how you count employees. Are you counting research associates (lab technicians) and post-docs? You have a lot of researchers, technicians, grants specialists, administrative staff, security, maintenance and cleaning staff just in the health science schools whose job is primarily just to support the research being done there and are largely paid directly or from the overheads from grant awards being won by faculty. Those numbers are going to skew any major research university like Pitt. Then you have people in an athletic departments, maintenance and grounds keeping, business offices, etc. Large universities do a lot more than just teach undergrads. So you can oversimplify the ratio but it is largely from a place of not understanding the myriad of enterprises that major universities are involved in and how those things are accomplished.

If you just look at Pitt's most education-centric unit, the Dietrich School of Arts & Sciences, and eliminate research associates and post-docs, then the ratio of full time faculty and staff to students is 1 to 10.3. But if I look at the School of Medicine using the same criteria, the ratio is reversed: 3.9 to 1.
And for Medicine, a lot of that faculty FTE is going to patient care. A full time clinically active Assistant or Associate Professor is spending the bulk of their time seeing patients and with research. Maybe 5% formal teaching. They also teach in those clinical settings with students, residents and fellows, but that activity is difficult to workload model. And that type of teaching activity is 1:1, not a lecture hall.
 
And for Medicine, a lot of that faculty FTE is going to patient care. A full time clinically active Assistant or Associate Professor is spending the bulk of their time seeing patients and with research. Maybe 5% formal teaching. They also teach in those clinical settings with students, residents and fellows, but that activity is difficult to workload model. And that type of teaching activity is 1:1, not a lecture hall.
Yes. Especially true at other schools that own their health systems. Yes too at Pitt from an overall viewpoint, but there is a technicality since UPMC is legally separate. Patient care aspect is handled by UPMC, which owns University of Pittsburgh Physicians (UPP), but the academic appointments (conducting the research, teaching, or other university service duties) are under the university itself through the faculty appointments within the school of medicine or other health science schools. So these individuals, at the Pitt med campus and other Pitt research facilities in the area, are often employees of both UPMC (UPP clinical practice) and Pitt (academic/research), although UPP and Pitt share a common paymaster. In fact, some faculty are also employed by the VA for clinical practice there. But correct, for some of them, most of their time is in clinical practice. For others, more of their time is in research. And most pay acomes from either revenue from clinical practice revenue or research grants.

As an aside, because I've seen this come up before, note that ALL externally-funded research money flows to the university, not UPMC. This arrangement with the Pitt physician practice plan being owned by UPMC but the faculty appointment being done at Pitt, and all research being managed at Pitt, is also why UPMC subsidizes the university to such a degree that it does, because that clinical income helps subsidize the academic support (e.g. faculty and staff and facility overhead). Other complexities are ownership of facilities: Pitt rents research space from some of UPMC's facilities, which UPMC rents clinical space from facilities that Pitt owns. The two entities share a health library, and also share a legally separate fundraising foundation. They are very intertwined. Another reason, when talking about tuition dollars, it makes little sense to talk about overall university numbers like totals of faculty and staff. It is way too complex to do so.
 
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Either way there is probably a few too many people in administrative positions and those that support those administrators than what is really needed
Yes, that is commonly said, but never actually examined.

As DEI administrators are often the target of this, a more detailed examination of what savings eliminating them would bring was discussed previously. I point you to this thread: https://pittsburgh.forums.rivals.co...t-funding-for-pitt.223823/page-6#post-4285832

In no way do I think there isn't some fat there, but it isn't as much as most people think. Also, a lot of these positions exist because state or federal policies essentially require that they exist.
 
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Yes. Especially true at other schools that own their health systems. Yes too at Pitt from an overall viewpoint, but there is a technicality since UPMC is legally separate. Patient care aspect is handled by UPMC, which owns University of Pittsburgh Physicians (UPP), but the academic appointments (conducting the research, teaching, or other university service duties) are under the university itself through the faculty appointments within the school of medicine or other health science schools. So these individuals, at the Pitt med campus and other Pitt research facilities in the area, are often employees of both UPMC (UPP clinical practice) and Pitt (academic/research), although UPP and Pitt share a common paymaster. In fact, some faculty are also employed by the VA for clinical practice there. But correct, for some of them, most of their time is in clinical practice. For others, more of their time is in research. And most pay acomes from either revenue from clinical practice revenue or research grants.

As an aside, because I've seen this come up before, note that ALL externally-funded research money flows to the university, not UPMC. This arrangement with the Pitt physician practice plan being owned by UPMC but the faculty appointment being done at Pitt, and all research being managed at Pitt, is also why UPMC subsidizes the university to such a degree that it does, because that clinical income helps subsidize the academic support (e.g. faculty and staff and facility overhead). Other complexities are ownership of facilities: Pitt rents research space from some of UPMC's facilities, which UPMC rents clinical space from facilities that Pitt owns. The two entities share a health library, and also share a legally separate fundraising foundation. They are very intertwined. Another reason, when talking about tuition dollars, it makes little sense to talk about overall university numbers like totals of faculty and staff. It is way too complex to do so.
As a prior University of Pittsburgh SoM professor of medicine, I can attest that this is 100% accurate. Because U.Pitt researchers do extremely well in obtaining extramural federal grants (e.g., NIH, VA) its a very good symbiotic relationships (at least for FACULTY physicians). Other University-HealthSystem relationships are not as robust as those at Pitt.
 
Yes. Especially true at other schools that own their health systems. Yes too at Pitt from an overall viewpoint, but there is a technicality since UPMC is legally separate. Patient care aspect is handled by UPMC, which owns University of Pittsburgh Physicians (UPP), but the academic appointments (conducting the research, teaching, or other university service duties) are under the university itself through the faculty appointments within the school of medicine or other health science schools. So these individuals, at the Pitt med campus and other Pitt research facilities in the area, are often employees of both UPMC (UPP clinical practice) and Pitt (academic/research), although UPP and Pitt share a common paymaster. In fact, some faculty are also employed by the VA for clinical practice there. But correct, for some of them, most of their time is in clinical practice. For others, more of their time is in research. And most pay acomes from either revenue from clinical practice revenue or research grants.

As an aside, because I've seen this come up before, note that ALL externally-funded research money flows to the university, not UPMC. This arrangement with the Pitt physician practice plan being owned by UPMC but the faculty appointment being done at Pitt, and all research being managed at Pitt, is also why UPMC subsidizes the university to such a degree that it does, because that clinical income helps subsidize the academic support (e.g. faculty and staff and facility overhead). Other complexities are ownership of facilities: Pitt rents research space from some of UPMC's facilities, which UPMC rents clinical space from facilities that Pitt owns. The two entities share a health library, and also share a legally separate fundraising foundation. They are very intertwined. Another reason, when talking about tuition dollars, it makes little sense to talk about overall university numbers like totals of faculty and staff. It is way too complex to do so.
In academic parlance, there are "rain maker" physicians who bring in extramural grants, they "may" see 1/2 day of patients in clinic per week (if that). Clinical Educators, generally see patients 2/3 of the week, some with precepting residents/students and 1/3 in "educational administrative" activities. Generally, if you are recruited as a research faculty at Pitt, you are given 75% of your time for research activities, the rest you make up in clinical activities. If you are not successful as a researcher, you may get more clinical FTE to fund yourself.

It gets tricky with the paycheck coming from UPitt, but the health system chips in either directly (paycheck from UPP) or routed through your UPitt paycheck.

It's a common model across the country. To be honest, though UPitt generally treats its research faculty well as they tend to do well and the indirect rates for NIH etc. are around 59%. That means if a Pitt faculty gets a $1,000,000 grant (directs), then the university gets $590,000 (indirects) so the total grant award is $1,590.000.

FYI Harvard's indirect rate is 69%.

Its the prime reason why UPitt SoM is doing so well now - they have a lot of federal grants which supports the infrastructure.
 
In academic parlance, there are "rain maker" physicians who bring in extramural grants, they "may" see 1/2 day of patients in clinic per week (if that). Clinical Educators, generally see patients 2/3 of the week, some with precepting residents/students and 1/3 in "educational administrative" activities. Generally, if you are recruited as a research faculty at Pitt, you are given 75% of your time for research activities, the rest you make up in clinical activities. If you are not successful as a researcher, you may get more clinical FTE to fund yourself.

It gets tricky with the paycheck coming from UPitt, but the health system chips in either directly (paycheck from UPP) or routed through your UPitt paycheck.

It's a common model across the country. To be honest, though UPitt generally treats its research faculty well as they tend to do well and the indirect rates for NIH etc. are around 59%. That means if a Pitt faculty gets a $1,000,000 grant (directs), then the university gets $590,000 (indirects) so the total grant award is $1,590.000.

FYI Harvard's indirect rate is 69%.

Its the prime reason why UPitt SoM is doing so well now - they have a lot of federal grants which supports the infrastructure.
Just note for other people, there are a lot of research faculty at any med school that aren't clinicians (PhDs, that are not MDs). But often in these situations, at least in more recent years, most of their salary is likely coming from soft money (meaning you are providing it from your own grant funding) unless you have a chair or something
 
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Any boy half-decent with his hands would be dumb to go to college unless he’s pursuing a professional degree. A skilled tradesman has limitless work opportunities and the ability to start his own business and work for himself. All with little to no educational debt. It’s a no-brainer.
I do believe that women make up over 60% of students enrolled in college today. And if it weren’t for football that number may be even higher. The problem is there are too many working aged men who still don’t do anything.
 
Well said. In the end, the market will tell us what is needed and what is not in the form of wages. Undergraduate degrees in sociology pretty much useless (at least from an economic perspective). The days of simply going to a reasonably good University, getting a liberal arts degree and assuming that this was the ticket to future success are long over. The idea of a business getting expenses in line with revenues is a concept that seems to have escaped academia.

I'll raise one last point regarding cost control in academia. The landscape in higher ed is changing rapidly. A number of well regarded universities (eg, CMU, GA Tech....) are offering their curriculum on-line for a fraction of the cost of traditional campus-based education. I have a good friend who is going for his masters in comp sci at Georgia Tech....doing it all on-line...1/3 the cost. If you follow this to it's conclusion, why do we need 5K colleges and universities in the US? Why would a kid do their comp sci degree on campus at Slippery Rock if they can save 60% and finish with a degree from Georgia Tech? Delivering classes online eliminates most of the bandwidth issues...the idea of competing for limited admission slots makes no sense in a digital world. Admit larger numbers and let the work dictate who will graduate and who won't. Anyway, academia is probably one of the last industries that has not had their core business model disrupted. The results has been costs that have outstripped inflation and fueled by ever rising loans and subsidies. This model is unsustainable. Change comes slowly to academia but it is coming.
When it comes to computer science a school like Pitt’s return on investment is much higher than Slippery Rock. Mainly due to the internship opportunities, and the curriculum you are learning.

Obviously going to CMU/MIT is an out of this world advantage. I agree with all the liberal arts stuff but when it comes to CS and engineering the school matters a lot more.
 
Any boy half-decent with his hands would be dumb to go to college unless he’s pursuing a professional degree. A skilled tradesman has limitless work opportunities and the ability to start his own business and work for himself. All with little to no educational debt. It’s a no-brainer.
LOL. I had to go to college because I have no mechanical type of skills. I would be starving. I am the last guy you want to ask about a car engine or electrical work or fixing or remodeling stuff. Now my brother, he can do any of that. God was a fair god, he gave us all different skills.
 
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