OT - Indianapolis Pirates

[Pittguy1980]

They won 98 last year and punted on the first half of the year. Being 2.5 out of the 2nd wild card at this point isn't a thing to celebrate.

I thought 98 wins didn't matter? As I have had it explained to me, there is only one team that is successful at the end of the year, and that is the World Series winner. If the Pirates win 98 and lose the World Series, in your eyes it should be no different than if they win 84 and miss the playoffs.

And if you are going to trot out the 98 wins, you need to give them credit (a lot of it) for hanging the second most wins in baseball the last 3 years which you seem incapable of doing.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Glasnow's entire outing has just been ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[mvk112]

Do that and you lose a year of control which might be the difference between a very good team or just a good team in 5 or 6 years when you lose a guy like Tailon, assuming he becomes a stud. Or look at it in Coles case. I believe the pirates have control for 3 more years, had they moved him up right away it would be two. You have to be smart as long as they are attempting to win and actually investing in the system I don't have a problem with it. Now when they were drafting guys like Moskos and sanchez just because they thought they could sign them cheaply thats when I have a problem but they are extending guys like Marte, Polanco, Liriano and Cervelli.

You don't lose a year of control if you call them up after 11 days or so. Just like Cubs did with Kris Bryant last year.

 

[mvk112]

I thought 98 wins didn't matter? As I have had it explained to me, there is only one team that is successful at the end of the year, and that is the World Series winner. If the Pirates win 98 and lose the World Series, in your eyes it should be no different than if they win 84 and miss the playoffs.

And if you are going to trot out the 98 wins, you need to give them credit (a lot of it) for hanging the second most wins in baseball the last 3 years which you seem incapable of doing.

It didn't matter, that's why they should've loaded up to try to win the division.

 

[Pittguy1980]

You don't lose a year of control if you call them up after 11 days or so. Just like Cubs did with Kris Bryant last year.

You can't know that for sure? I won't claimed know how super two works exactly, but that proclamation you are making is dead wrong.

 

[mvk112]

Glasnow's entire outing has just been ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He's not ready, LOL. Joke.

 

[mvk112]

You can't know that for sure? I won't claimed know how super two works exactly, but that proclamation you are making is dead wrong.

Super 2 is different than service time. They stay down 11 days they aren't credited for a full season, thus giving them an extra year of service.

 

[Teh Teh]

Depends how you define success. I think the pirates have been successful

 

[Pittbaseball11]

You can't know that for sure? I won't claimed know how super two works exactly, but that proclamation you are making is dead wrong.

They wouldn't lose a year of control but you're really hurting yourself in the long term in order to MAYBE get better in 20 or so games in the short term. You're not looking at a position player who is out there every day -- it's starting pitchers who are playing every 5th game.

Taillon's thrown a couple of clunkers himself since he's been up.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

He's not ready, LOL. Joke.

He's spotting his curveball. Nobody's said he won't succeed when he's doing that. The problem is that he can't do it consistently from game-to-game.

As always, give these guys time. League will adjust, and Glasnow's looking like the "good Glasnow" today.

 

[mvk112]

"Good Glasnow"? WTF, the guy has dominated every step of the way. He's always good. He's been really good today, even with the HR he just gave up.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

"Good Glasnow"? WTF, the guy has dominated every step of the way. He's always good. He's been really good today, even with the HR he just gave up.

We'll see how good he is when he's not spotting his curveball.

 

[mvk112]

We'll see how good he is when he's not spotting his curveball.

He's struggled with his curve actually, hanging it a few times, including the only two hits, and missing the plate some to go deeper into counts. He has room to improve yet he's been really really good today. That he wasn't here sooner is ridiculously dumb, but not as dumb as the people who defend the organization for everything.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

He's struggled with his curve actually, hanging it a few times, including the only two hits. He has room to improve and he's been really really good today. That he wasn't here sooner is ridiculously dumb, but not as dumb as the people who defend the organization for everything.

He's actually putting it in the strike zone, though. Usually he throws nothing but balls with it and teams just sit fastball and just take a bunch of walks all game.

 

[mvk112]

He's actually putting it in the strike zone, though. Usually he throws nothing but balls with it and teams just sit fastball and just take a bunch of walks all game.

Putting it in the heart of the strike zone isn't what you want to do with it.

 

[Pittguy1980]

He's struggled with his curve actually, hanging it a few times, including the only two hits, and missing the plate some to go deeper into counts. He has room to improve yet he's been really really good today. That he wasn't here sooner is ridiculously dumb, but not as dumb as the people who defend the organization for everything.

It's not dumber than people who give the organization credit for nothing, constantly complain about cheapness, and act like it is the worst run organization in baseball.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Putting it in the heart of the strike zone isn't what you want to do with it.

Balls over the heart of the plate get hit hard less than you'd imagine, especially for guys who have premium stuff. I'd much prefer a guy spotting his pitches in and around the zone and making an occasional mistake than a guy who's just walking guys like crazy and effectively losing a pitch because hitters can just ignore it all game.

 

[mvk112]

It's not dumber than people who give the organization credit for nothing, constantly complain about cheapness, and act like it is the worst run organization in baseball.

Are you satisfied that they haven't won anything of note, not a championship, not a playoff series, not a division; and yet chose to punt on half a season here?

Nobody said its the worst run organization or won't give them credit for anything... but being a cheerleader who defends crap like Niese/Locke/Nicasio in the rotation for half a year when Taillon and Glasnow are in AAA is really really dumb.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Are you satisfied that they haven't won anything of note, not a championship, not a playoff series, not a division; and yet chose to punt on half a season here?

Nobody said its the worst run organization or won't give them credit for anything... but being a cheerleader who defends crap like Niese/Locke/Nicasio in the rotation for half a year when Taillon and Glasnow are in AAA is really really dumb.

Everybody except for a vocal minority in Pittsburgh is a huge Nutting cheerleader, apparently.

 

[mvk112]

Balls over the heart of the plate get hit hard less than you'd imagine, especially for guys who have premium stuff. I'd much prefer a guy spotting his pitches in and around the zone and making an occasional mistake than a guy who's just walking guys like crazy and effectively losing a pitch because hitters can just ignore it all game.

Yeah, Glasnow has effectively lost a plus pitch in his minor league career and guys ignore it. Sure explains his minor league numbers. You don't really believe this do you? I mean, I'm sure you gobble up the crap Tim Shilliams spews, but please try to come back to reality.

 

[Pittguy1980]

Are you satisfied that they haven't won anything of note, not a championship, not a playoff series, not a division; and yet chose to punt on half a season here?

Nobody said its the worst run organization or won't give them credit for anything... but being a cheerleader who defends crap like Niese/Locke/Nicasio in the rotation for half a year when Taillon and Glasnow are in AAA is really really dumb.

I am completely satisfied with how the organization has been run, and the steps they have taken to try and win a championship. I realize that there are 100's of factors out of their control (you know, other teams try to win too) and that they can only do so much. I also want to see them maximize their chances to win, and they have done that very well.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Yeah, Glasnow has effectively lost a plus pitch in his minor league career and guys ignore it. Sure explains his minor league numbers. You don't really believe this do you? I mean, I'm sure you gobble up the crap Tim Shilliams spews, but please try to come back to reality.

I think he loses it when he's not spotting it. How is that hard to comprehend? How does a guy with two plus to plus-plus pitches walk as many guys as he has if he's not effectively losing one of those pitches? It's because the curveball is no longer a threat to be in the strike zone consistently, so guys just lay off of it.

It works in the minors, won't play in the majors.

 

[mvk112]

I think he loses it when he's not spotting it. How is that hard to comprehend? How does a guy with two plus to plus-plus pitches walk as many guys as he has if he's not effectively losing one of those pitches? It's because the curveball is no longer a threat to be in the strike zone consistently, so guys just lay off of it.

It works in the minors, won't play in the majors.

He'd have been better off walking a few guys today instead of spotting those hanging curves to Diaz and Piscotty.

You can live with walks when they don't make solid contact on your plus fastball, and then chase your plus curveball with two strikes.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

He'd have been better off walking a few guys today instead of spotting those hanging curves to Diaz and Piscotty.

You can live with walks when they don't make solid contact on your plus fastball, and then chase your plus curveball with two strikes.

That's certainly playing the results, although that's in line with most of the other arguments you make regarding the Pirates.

 

[Ski11585]

How can mvk make such valid points on the hoops board and be so off the rails here...?

 

[Pittguy1980]

Wait, this is a new one...walking guys is now better than letting guys put the ball in play?

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Wait, this is a new one...walking guys is now better than letting guys put the ball in play?

No, no, no. You walk the guys who are going to get hits off of you and then you just go ahead and strike out the guys who aren't going to get hits off of you. It's brilliant, really. A pox on Ray Searage and the Pirates catchers for not employing it sooner.

Strange how Glasnow went from "he's totally unhittable, who cares if he walks guys" to "he should walk guys instead of letting guys hit the ball".

It's almost like the depth of the normal major league lineup is going to eventually pounce on him and force him to execute his pitches both in and out of the zone.

 

[mvk112]

If the alternative to walking guys when they don't chase the curveball is to lob it over the plate for them to tee it up, then yes, walking them then working to K the next guy is better.

It's how he's dominated at single level of baseball in his career.

 

[mvk112]

Strange how Glasnow went from "he's totally unhittable, who cares if he walks guys" to "he should walk guys instead of letting guys hit the ball".

If you watched the game, you'd see why it's okay to walk someone (inning 1) instead of worrying about control if it means lobbing less than your best over the plate (Diaz/Piscotty).

The guy gave up 5 base runners and struck out 5 in 5.1 innings, that's much better than the crap they usually get from Locke and Niese.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

If you watched the game, you'd see why it's okay to walk someone (inning 1) instead of worrying about control if it means lobbing less than your best over the plate (Diaz/Piscotty).

The guy gave up 5 base runners and struck out 5 in 5.1 innings, that's much better than the crap they usually get from Locke and Niese.

I watched the game. You are totally playing the results on this, and acting as though facing a minor league lineup with MAYBE 1 or 2 guys who can capitalize on a mistake pitch is the same as facing a lineup with 6 or 7 guys who can.

I mean, the guy averaged a little over a strikeout per inning in the minor leagues. He's relying on batted balls being converted into outs for 2/3 of his outs, and generally facing a bunch of guys who might not get anything more than a tiny cup of coffee in the majors.

Seriously, watch his games in Indianapolis. He did the same stuff he did today, but the hitters just couldn't do anything with it because the gap between AAA and MLB is gigantic. He can't execute his pitches inside or outside of the zone. Every single scout who has seen him has said "he has no command" and most are really iffy on his control.

Like, today is what he is. He has great stuff. He has absolutely no ability to move his pitches around in the zone. He's really inconsistent with throwing strikes. He refuses to throw his changeup. This is what is going to happen. He's either going to walk a ton of guys or he's going to make a bunch of mistakes where you just have to hope that the stuff overpowers the hitter.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

mvk112's new baseball philosophy "Walks are good" LOL

 

[NTOP]

I watched the game. You are totally playing the results on this, and acting as though facing a minor league lineup with MAYBE 1 or 2 guys who can capitalize on a mistake pitch is the same as facing a lineup with 6 or 7 guys who can.

I mean, the guy averaged a little over a strikeout per inning in the minor leagues. He's relying on batted balls being converted into outs for 2/3 of his outs, and generally facing a bunch of guys who might not get anything more than a tiny cup of coffee in the majors.

Seriously, watch his games in Indianapolis. He did the same stuff he did today, but the hitters just couldn't do anything with it because the gap between AAA and MLB is gigantic. He can't execute his pitches inside or outside of the zone. Every single scout who has seen him has said "he has no command" and most are really iffy on his control.

Like, today is what he is. He has great stuff. He has absolutely no ability to move his pitches around in the zone. He's really inconsistent with throwing strikes. He refuses to throw his changeup. This is what is going to happen. He's either going to walk a ton of guys or he's going to make a bunch of mistakes where you just have to hope that the stuff overpowers the hitter.

Maybe, just maybe, he'll learn how to pitch??
On another note...Wainwright has lost about 4-5 MPH on his fastball?? Or was he always around 88-89?? Still has great stuff and savvy. No longer looks invincible, though.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Maybe, just maybe, he'll learn how to pitch??
On another note...Wainwright has lost about 4-5 MPH on his fastball?? Or was he always around 88-89?? Still has great stuff and savvy. No longer looks invincible, though.

I think/hope he will. It's just silly to take minor league stat lines and extrapolate them to major league performance. I haven't seen a single writeup on him that hasn't said he's the type of guy who is going to be really up and down and get exploited a bit against major league lineups. That's not really even a knock on him, it's more just because minor league lineups are horrible compared to major league lineups. Julio Urias has struggled at the MLB level this year. Jose Berrios has struggled. Lucas Giolito has been pretty "meh" so far. Taillon has had a couple of rough outings. All of those guys were rated similarly to Glasnow, and in the case of Giolito and Urias they were actually rated higher.

It's why the Pirates wanted to get the minor league arms up during this season -- they're going to take their fair share of lumps, so get the rookie struggles out of the way simultaneously. Here's the summary from yet another write-up on Glasnow (this time from Fangraphs' lead scout, who was Keith Law's right-hand man at ESPN the past few years). As he notes, Glasnow's future IS really promising because he's nowhere close to a finished product:

"I like Glasnow but think there are aspects of his game right now that are raw (he’s had seven starts this year in which he’s allowed four or more walks) and will be exposed by major-league opposition. That said, I’m also fairly confident in his ability to make adjustments and am even more optimistic about the future of his stuff (and not just in the aforementioned fastball and changeup development, but I think Glasnow might one day have one hell of a cutter). I think there’s a good chance he struggles early on because of the control issues, the immaturity of the repertoire and his issues with holding runners. Scouting reports (70 fastball, 60 curveball, future average changeup and fringe-average control) dictate No. 3 starter projection (that’s a 60 on the 20-80 scale), albeit with more volatility and risk associated with that profile than is usual for a young arm that’s already had success at Triple-A. I think, because of how explosive Glasnow’s stuff can be, it’s reasonable to hope for more than that while simultaneously bracing yourself for less."

On Wainright, he's lost quite a bit of velocity and is probably the Cards' worst pitcher at this point (although Leake has a convincing argument for that as well). Curveball comes and goes, it was on yesterday. Pirates knocked him around pretty well earlier on in the year, but he was putting the curveball wherever he wanted it yesterday so they didn't stand much chance. It happens.

 

[Teh Teh]

Well everyone is overreacting as usual. 3 things were noticeable in yesterday's start, first he needs experience and better control (or he was really freaking nervous which is more likely the case especially after walking the lead off batter). Second, he has the ability to not give up hits even at this level. Lastly, he is going to be a good pitcher. When I saw him twice his fastball was 96-97 with the sharp low curve. He was hanging the curve and slower fastball yesterday. Definitely signs of some nerves there.

But big easy delivery, good movement and should have finished his inning. I was passed at hurdle for lifting him but hurdle isn't the best pitching handler.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Josh Bell being called up.

Pirates place 3 players in Baseball Prospectus' Midseason Top 50 (Glasnow and Taillon not eligible but would have been included, per the author) with Austin Meadows coming in at #6. Bell and Newman round out the Top 50 prospects.

Pirates place 6 players in Baseball America's Midseason Top 100 (Taillon not eligible) with Glasnow (#6) and Meadows (10) both in the Top 10. Other inclusions are Bell (38), Newman (51), Mitch Keller (52), and Ke'Bryan Hayes (72).

The Brewers and Cardinals both have 4 Top 100 players, while the Cubs and Reds each have 3.

 

[levance2]

How can mvk make such valid points on the hoops board and be so off the rails here...?

It's kind of like the movie Twins, where one part of him retained all the intelligence and measured thought, while the other one is posting here about "Nutsack".

 

[levance2]

Are you satisfied that they haven't won anything of note, not a championship, not a playoff series, not a division; and yet chose to punt on half a season here?

I think the Pirates have done really well at putting their teams in position to succeed, even if they have in various years, been unwilling to make the unwise/risky move of adding more. They are trying to play the long game, assuming that with enough reasonable chances, they will get the result they deserve. That may happen, and possibly retroactively prove them correct. Or it might not, and Cutch and the current core leave/deteriorate before we ever win anything.

The Niese trade was really bad, and I think is evident of some of their nuttier opinions, such as them clearly not liking and wanting to dump Walker. I don't think that really has anything to do with the promotion of their MiLB pitchers though. People in the other thread bashed Polanco for not being good enough, while people were outraged at the time for him not having been promoted earlier. There's no way to win with your crowd.