OT: May 20, 1969

[mike412]

It’s now May 20 in Vietnam. 50 years ago today, the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division took the summit of Hill 937 in the Au Shau Valley, west of Hue. Hill 937 is better known as Hamburger Hill. That final assault ended a battle which had gone on intermittently for 10 days.

Approximately two years later, I was assigned to a 101st Airborne Division base camp about 10 clicks from Hill 937. (I have too much admiration and respect for the 101st Airborne to claim to have been a member. I didn’t go through the training they did and didn’t earn the right to wear the Screaming Eagle on my sleeve; I was assigned to them on temporary duty for 75 days. Although technically I was authorized to wear the Screaming Eagle on my right sleeve, as my last combat unit, after that assignment ended, I never did because I hadn’t earned it. )

The Au Shau Valley ran along the narrowest part of Vietnam and had become a major supply route used by the North Vietnamese regulars to move men and supplies into the country through Laos. The job of the 101st Airborne in May 1969 was to “interdict” the Ho Chi Minh trail to stop, or at least disrupt, that flow of men and supplies. It was as futile in May 1971 as it had been two years earlier. The Ho Chi Minh trail was not like Interstate 79. It had no fixed path. It was fluid and moved wherever the Vietnamese needed it to be. If we were blocking Point X, it moved to Point Y. Point Y might only be 5 miles away, but with the dense jungle and endless series of hills and mountains, it might as well have been on the Moon. We knew it. Those giving orders to our senior commanders were the only ones too stupid to know it or, alternatively, too stubborn to accept it.

Ironically, few ethnic Vietnamese lived in the Au Shau Valley. They lived along the coast, in cities like Hue and Da Nang. The primary residents of the area were the indigenous Montagnard tribespeople, many of whom were Christians, converted either by the French or Protestant missionaries. (Other ethnic minorities in Southeast Asia, like the Hmong and the indigenous tribes in northern Thailand also are primarily Christian, although I doubt most Christians would recognize their services.) The Montagnards didn’t speak Vietnamese, but instead spoke a few different indigenous languages. There were about 1 million of them in 1971, and from what I have read, that approximate number remain today. Some of them fought for us.

Hamburger Hill was famous by May 1971 when I began my assignment in the Au Shau Valley. But, I never got to visit it. Because two days after the 101st Airborne took the Hill, they were ordered to abandon it. The assault on it never had any strategic or tactical purpose. The approximately 700 Americans and Vietnamese who died on it, died for nothing of any strategic value. The senior Vietnamese commanders who made the decision to defend the hill were as vain and stupid as the senior American commanders who ordered it taken. Maybe more so. Their estimated losses were five times as high.

What it stood for then — and what it stands for today — is what too much in war stands for: The incredible bravery of men doing acts which are absolutely futile.

Many years later, Gerry Offsay, who had been an attorney at Loeb and Loeb for some of the time I worked there, co-produced the movie “Hamburger Hill,” about the battle. After it was released, some of the veterans who had fought there were interviewed and one of their biggest complaints was that the terrain portrayed in the movie was not anywhere near as steep and difficult as the actual terrain of Hill 937. Some said that if the terrain in the movie had been the terrain they had been ordered to take, they would have taken it on Day One.

I asked Gerry about that one time. He told me that the film’s technical adviser had found a hill (I believe in the Phillipines) which closely resembled Hill 937, and vegetation had been added to it so that it was almost a twin for Hill 937. However, when they started rehearsing there, none of the actors could climb more than ten feet of it without falling back down. So they had to find a much less steep hill that the actors could navigate. That, more than anything to me illustrates the bravery of the men of the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division: They assaulted a hill under withering fire from 1,000 North Vietnamese regulars for 10 days where the terrain was so difficult that most men couldn’t climb it under any circumstances — and they took it. An act of bravery almost beyond comprehension!

 

[HOF Coach]

 

[mike412]

View embedded media

Great footage. I knew it was steep, but a 70 degree slope! Imagine assaulting a 3,000 foot high, 70 degree steep hill covered with a triple canopy of vegetation in the height of the rainy season, where mudslides are the norm, with a crack NVA Unit hidden in bunkers terraced up the hill reigning fire down on you.

The two senior officers they interviewed lied through their teeth about the military significance of the hill: visual control over the entire Au Shau Valley my ass. From the top of any summit there you could see the next hill in every direction. And the tops of others. Period. You couldn’t see troop or supply movements. In their minds at that time they might actually have thought that. Of course, neither of them had been to the summit, or anywhere near the hill. Once they got there, they might not have made that claim. But, more likely they would have repeated it because that was the official justification until we withdrew two days later.

 

[Cmart2004]

Thank you for your service!

 

[GT74]

Great story mike. You served well, of which you are to be commended and honored, and are a great Pitt fan.

 

[4upmc]

Thank you for your service!

+1

 

[Pitt-Chains]

It’s now May 20 in Vietnam. 50 years ago today, the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division took the summit of Hill 937 in the Au Shau Valley, west of Hue. Hill 937 is better known as Hamburger Hill. That final assault ended a battle which had gone on intermittently for 10 days.

Approximately two years later, I was assigned to a 101st Airborne Division base camp about 10 clicks from Hill 937. (I have too much admiration and respect for the 101st Airborne to claim to have been a member. I didn’t go through the training they did and didn’t earn the right to wear the Screaming Eagle on my sleeve; I was assigned to them on temporary duty for 75 days. Although technically I was authorized to wear the Screaming Eagle on my right sleeve, as my last combat unit, after that assignment ended, I never did because I hadn’t earned it. )

The Au Shau Valley ran along the narrowest part of Vietnam and had become a major supply route used by the North Vietnamese regulars to move men and supplies into the country through Laos. The job of the 101st Airborne in May 1969 was to “interdict” the Ho Chi Minh trail to stop, or at least disrupt, that flow of men and supplies. It was as futile in May 1971 as it had been two years earlier. The Ho Chi Minh trail was not like Interstate 79. It had no fixed path. It was fluid and moved wherever the Vietnamese needed it to be. If we were blocking Point X, it moved to Point Y. Point Y might only be 5 miles away, but with the dense jungle and endless series of hills and mountains, it might as well have been on the Moon. We knew it. Those giving orders to our senior commanders were the only ones too stupid to know it or, alternatively, too stubborn to accept it.

Ironically, few ethnic Vietnamese lived in the Au Shau Valley. They lived along the coast, in cities like Hue and Da Nang. The primary residents of the area were the indigenous Montagnard tribespeople, many of whom were Christians, converted either by the French or Protestant missionaries. (Other ethnic minorities in Southeast Asia, like the Hmong and the indigenous tribes in northern Thailand also are primarily Christian, although I doubt most Christians would recognize their services.) The Montagnards didn’t speak Vietnamese, but instead spoke a few different indigenous languages. There were about 1 million of them in 1971, and from what I have read, that approximate number remain today. Some of them fought for us.

Hamburger Hill was famous by May 1971 when I began my assignment in the Au Shau Valley. But, I never got to visit it. Because two days after the 101st Airborne took the Hill, they were ordered to abandon it. The assault on it never had any strategic or tactical purpose. The approximately 700 Americans and Vietnamese who died on it, died for nothing of any strategic value. The senior Vietnamese commanders who made the decision to defend the hill were as vain and stupid as the senior American commanders who ordered it taken. Maybe more so. Their estimated losses were five times as high.

What it stood for then — and what it stands for today — is what too much in war stands for: The incredible bravery of men doing acts which are absolutely futile.

Many years later, Gerry Offsay, who had been an attorney at Loeb and Loeb for some of the time I worked there, co-produced the movie “Hamburger Hill,” about the battle. After it was released, some of the veterans who had fought there were interviewed and one of their biggest complaints was that the terrain portrayed in the movie was not anywhere near as steep and difficult as the actual terrain of Hill 937. Some said that if the terrain in the movie had been the terrain they had been ordered to take, they would have taken it on Day One.

I asked Gerry about that one time. He told me that the film’s technical adviser had found a hill (I believe in the Phillipines) which closely resembled Hill 937, and vegetation had been added to it so that it was almost a twin for Hill 937. However, when they started rehearsing there, none of the actors could climb more than ten feet of it without falling back down. So they had to find a much less steep hill that the actors could navigate. That, more than anything to me illustrates the bravery of the men of the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division: They assaulted a hill under withering fire from 1,000 North Vietnamese regulars for 10 days where the terrain was so difficult that most men couldn’t climb it under any circumstances — and they took it. An act of bravery almost beyond comprehension!

Thank you !

 

[wbrpanther]

It’s now May 20 in Vietnam. 50 years ago today, the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division took the summit of Hill 937 in the Au Shau Valley, west of Hue. Hill 937 is better known as Hamburger Hill. That final assault ended a battle which had gone on intermittently for 10 days.

Approximately two years later, I was assigned to a 101st Airborne Division base camp about 10 clicks from Hill 937. (I have too much admiration and respect for the 101st Airborne to claim to have been a member. I didn’t go through the training they did and didn’t earn the right to wear the Screaming Eagle on my sleeve; I was assigned to them on temporary duty for 75 days. Although technically I was authorized to wear the Screaming Eagle on my right sleeve, as my last combat unit, after that assignment ended, I never did because I hadn’t earned it. )

The Au Shau Valley ran along the narrowest part of Vietnam and had become a major supply route used by the North Vietnamese regulars to move men and supplies into the country through Laos. The job of the 101st Airborne in May 1969 was to “interdict” the Ho Chi Minh trail to stop, or at least disrupt, that flow of men and supplies. It was as futile in May 1971 as it had been two years earlier. The Ho Chi Minh trail was not like Interstate 79. It had no fixed path. It was fluid and moved wherever the Vietnamese needed it to be. If we were blocking Point X, it moved to Point Y. Point Y might only be 5 miles away, but with the dense jungle and endless series of hills and mountains, it might as well have been on the Moon. We knew it. Those giving orders to our senior commanders were the only ones too stupid to know it or, alternatively, too stubborn to accept it.

Ironically, few ethnic Vietnamese lived in the Au Shau Valley. They lived along the coast, in cities like Hue and Da Nang. The primary residents of the area were the indigenous Montagnard tribespeople, many of whom were Christians, converted either by the French or Protestant missionaries. (Other ethnic minorities in Southeast Asia, like the Hmong and the indigenous tribes in northern Thailand also are primarily Christian, although I doubt most Christians would recognize their services.) The Montagnards didn’t speak Vietnamese, but instead spoke a few different indigenous languages. There were about 1 million of them in 1971, and from what I have read, that approximate number remain today. Some of them fought for us.

Hamburger Hill was famous by May 1971 when I began my assignment in the Au Shau Valley. But, I never got to visit it. Because two days after the 101st Airborne took the Hill, they were ordered to abandon it. The assault on it never had any strategic or tactical purpose. The approximately 700 Americans and Vietnamese who died on it, died for nothing of any strategic value. The senior Vietnamese commanders who made the decision to defend the hill were as vain and stupid as the senior American commanders who ordered it taken. Maybe more so. Their estimated losses were five times as high.

What it stood for then — and what it stands for today — is what too much in war stands for: The incredible bravery of men doing acts which are absolutely futile.

Many years later, Gerry Offsay, who had been an attorney at Loeb and Loeb for some of the time I worked there, co-produced the movie “Hamburger Hill,” about the battle. After it was released, some of the veterans who had fought there were interviewed and one of their biggest complaints was that the terrain portrayed in the movie was not anywhere near as steep and difficult as the actual terrain of Hill 937. Some said that if the terrain in the movie had been the terrain they had been ordered to take, they would have taken it on Day One.

I asked Gerry about that one time. He told me that the film’s technical adviser had found a hill (I believe in the Phillipines) which closely resembled Hill 937, and vegetation had been added to it so that it was almost a twin for Hill 937. However, when they started rehearsing there, none of the actors could climb more than ten feet of it without falling back down. So they had to find a much less steep hill that the actors could navigate. That, more than anything to me illustrates the bravery of the men of the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division: They assaulted a hill under withering fire from 1,000 North Vietnamese regulars for 10 days where the terrain was so difficult that most men couldn’t climb it under any circumstances — and they took it. An act of bravery almost beyond comprehension!

Mike, thanks for sharing and thanks for serving. The great tragedy of Vietnam is that we as a country never learn.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I always blown away by these stories, I just can't imagine the horror and going through it. I always eat up any documentaries and thought the Vietnam In HD series run by the History Channel was fantastic. Thanks for the insight.

 

[benchwarmer04]

ditto to what previous posters said. you are a gifted writer. i've become kind of Viet Nam war auditor in my dotage. i encourage all to download "viet nam voices",about personal experiences of individuals who so bravely served our country in that era.

mike i'm proud to have you as a fellow classmate of TA'64.you were an extremely bright,gifted student-as evidenced by your professional accomplishments.

please continue to share your wise and thoughtful insights and observations.

 

[88Pitt88]

Mike, thank you for your service! I recently read a book called "Death in the Au Shau Valley". It was mostly about the LRRPS who were sent in ahead to scout the Vietcong and make sure landing zones for our guys were safe. These men were incredibly brave as they were sometimes air dropped in areas where they were essentially surrounded by the Vietnamese. I have a great admiration for these fine men. Once again, thank you!

 

[FIVE4PITT]

Thank you for your service!

 

[mike412]

Benchwarmer04 can you dm me your real name.

The LRRPs were what the 101st was doing when I was there. The initials stand for Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol. The Commanding Officer of the 101st had the “brilliant” idea of having them at night. The Billy Joel song “The Glass Curtain” had it right when it said “They rule the night. And the night seems to last forever.” No sane officer would ever take his men out on a night mission in the Au Shau Valley. It was a death wish.

Remember, this was 1971. We were in the process of withdrawing from Vietnam. The war was lost; it always had been lost but now those in charge knew it. And, the idiot CO of the 101st Airborne decided to send 2 to 4 platoons a night out on LRRPs.

I shared a tent with 2 other LTs. Both were platoon leaders. Andre was a West Point graduate. His dad had been a career noncom. He was the first officer in his family, which had men serving in the Army since 1864, when one ancestor freed from slavery on a plantation in Tennessee during Sherman’s March, joined up. Reb has graduated from VMI, and was proud of declaring it had been where Stonewell Jackson had taught before the Civil War. They had a very uneasy relationship, but Reb never pushed Andre too far because Andre might have been the toughest guy in the whole Battalion.

The LRRPs were rotated among all of the platoons. Each went out on an average of once a week. The CO would go up each morning in a helicopter and determine where that night’s LRRPS would go. Most of us wished the NVA had had shoulder-fired SAMs so they could have shot the Huey out of the sky. Alas, they didn’t.

When Andre or Reb would come back in the morning, I invariably would ask “Any casualties?” The answer would always be no, usually communicated by the shake of a head. That went on for over a month. Finally, one time I asked Andre and he exploded. He got in my face and asked me how dumb I was that I hadn’t figured out why the answer always was no. In a very angry but quiet voice he said it always was no because they didn’t go on those suicide missions. They went into the jungle beyond the view of the sentries on the towers in the base camp. Then they stopped. They selected a good defensive position and secured it. They spent all night in it. Just before dawn, they fell in and came back. Then he filed a fake report that no enemy movement had been seen. Sometimes he added touches like being able to slightly hear some vehicle movement an estimated two clicks away, but had not been able to track down that movement.

Then he said he did that for two reasons. First, if he tried to go any further into the valley than they did, his men would shoot him. And second because the missions were idiotic. If they had happened on troop movement they would have been slaughtered.

I never asked again. Some platoons did suffer casualties on the LRRPs. Not from “interdicting” troop or supply movement, but from booby traps or mines which were impossible to see at night. But, the slogan by May 1971 was “Don’t be the last American killed in Vietnam” so casualties were relatively low.

Years later, when “Band Of Brothers” had an episode about Captain Winters being ordered to send troops out at night to cross a river and try to capture German troops, and he didn’t send them because it was an idiotic order which would cause unnecessary deaths, I remember being stunned that what the platoon leaders did in Vietnam in 1971 had been done in 1944.

We had one significant battle when I was there. We got a tip from some locals that the NVA were going to attack the base camp. We got three such tips. One time they actually did attack. Their goal was not to overrun us; they had no chance of doing that. Their goal was to try to psychologically keep us pinned in that base camp 24/7 so they could operate in the Au Shau Valley without constant opposition. They never penetrated the camp and we had only minor casualties. I only was there another 10 days so I don’t know if the LRRPs were reduced after that attack. (That was the battle I described in a Game of Thrones thread. We had floodlights all around the camp that theoretically should have made the area seem like daytime even though the attack came at night. But the combination of smoke and dirt made it almost impossible to see anything. I never fired my weapon because I never had a clear target. My biggest fear during that battle was being hit by friendly fire.)

 

[HOF Coach]

Mike - I don't know if you have shared your war experiences much with family members or close friends before. Your postings, however, remind me of something that happened in my own life.

My father-in-law fought in the Battle of the Bulge during WWII. He would never talk about the war, even when asked, he would quickly change the subject.

During the last few years of his life (he was a widower) and after I retired early, I chose to look after him. I made sure that he had his daily meals and took his prescriptions on time. I drove him to his doctor appointments, the grocery store and the bank, etc., so that my wife and brother-in-law could continue to focus on their successful careers without feeling guilty about caring for his needs. He was always very good to me and was my go-to "Mr. Fix It" since he was a highly skilled carpenter. I was more than happy to be there for him now, when he needed someone to look after him a bit.

I had become his companion and confidante. As such, some days we would just sit out on the front porch and just talk about nothing in particular. We just hung out.

Then one day, out-of-the-blue, he started telling me about his war experiences. It was as if someone had turned on the faucet in his brain. The stories that he shared were incredible, both the good ones and the horrific ones.

He seemed to feel relieved to finally get things off his chest and unburden himself while he could before he passed away. What he shared with me remains confidential to this day. He passed away 7 years ago as of yesterday.

I hope that sharing your war stories with us is as beneficial to you as it was to my father-in-law after he shared his war stories with me.

Much respect to you, sir.
H2P!

 

[pitt-girl]

Mike - I don't know if you have shared your war experiences much with family members or close friends before. Your postings, however, remind me of something that happened in my own life.

My father-in-law fought in the Battle of the Bulge during WWII. He would never talk about the war, even when asked, he would quickly change the subject.

During the last few years of his life (he was a widower) and after I retired early, I chose to look after him. I made sure that he had his daily meals and took his prescriptions on time. I drove him to his doctor appointments, the grocery store and the bank, etc., so that my wife and brother-in-law could continue to focus on their successful careers without feeling guilty about caring for his needs. He was always very good to me and was my go-to "Mr. Fix It" since he was a highly skilled carpenter. I was more than happy to be there for him now, when he needed someone to look after him a bit.

I had become his companion and confidante. As such, some days we would just sit out on the front porch and just talk about nothing in particular. We just hung out.

Then one day, out-of-the-blue, he started telling me about his war experiences. It was as if someone had turned on the faucet in his brain. The stories that he shared were incredible, both the good ones and the horrific ones.

He seemed to feel relieved to finally get things off his chest and unburden himself while he could before he passed away. What he shared with me remains confidential to this day. He passed away 7 years ago as of yesterday.

I hope that sharing your war stories with us is as beneficial to you as it was to my father-in-law after he shared his war stories with me.

Much respect to you, sir.
H2P!

I have a similar story. My first job out of Pitt was at Bayer. An older gentleman worked in my department. We became friends. One night a bunch of us went out for drinks. He started telling me about his time in Vietnam. He served three tours and always volunteered to be point going through the jungle. He felt like he had a better chance of surviving any surprise attack being first in line.

After that he would occasionally tell me other stories. I too got the impression it was very cathartic for him. I lost track of him after I left, but he was/is a great guy. Brave.

Thanks for your service @mike412.

 

[omega]

My first platoon sgt was in that battle.

 

[pittdan77]

It’s now May 20 in Vietnam. 50 years ago today, the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division took the summit of Hill 937 in the Au Shau Valley, west of Hue. Hill 937 is better known as Hamburger Hill. That final assault ended a battle which had gone on intermittently for 10 days.

Approximately two years later, I was assigned to a 101st Airborne Division base camp about 10 clicks from Hill 937. (I have too much admiration and respect for the 101st Airborne to claim to have been a member. I didn’t go through the training they did and didn’t earn the right to wear the Screaming Eagle on my sleeve; I was assigned to them on temporary duty for 75 days. Although technically I was authorized to wear the Screaming Eagle on my right sleeve, as my last combat unit, after that assignment ended, I never did because I hadn’t earned it. )

The Au Shau Valley ran along the narrowest part of Vietnam and had become a major supply route used by the North Vietnamese regulars to move men and supplies into the country through Laos. The job of the 101st Airborne in May 1969 was to “interdict” the Ho Chi Minh trail to stop, or at least disrupt, that flow of men and supplies. It was as futile in May 1971 as it had been two years earlier. The Ho Chi Minh trail was not like Interstate 79. It had no fixed path. It was fluid and moved wherever the Vietnamese needed it to be. If we were blocking Point X, it moved to Point Y. Point Y might only be 5 miles away, but with the dense jungle and endless series of hills and mountains, it might as well have been on the Moon. We knew it. Those giving orders to our senior commanders were the only ones too stupid to know it or, alternatively, too stubborn to accept it.

Ironically, few ethnic Vietnamese lived in the Au Shau Valley. They lived along the coast, in cities like Hue and Da Nang. The primary residents of the area were the indigenous Montagnard tribespeople, many of whom were Christians, converted either by the French or Protestant missionaries. (Other ethnic minorities in Southeast Asia, like the Hmong and the indigenous tribes in northern Thailand also are primarily Christian, although I doubt most Christians would recognize their services.) The Montagnards didn’t speak Vietnamese, but instead spoke a few different indigenous languages. There were about 1 million of them in 1971, and from what I have read, that approximate number remain today. Some of them fought for us.

Hamburger Hill was famous by May 1971 when I began my assignment in the Au Shau Valley. But, I never got to visit it. Because two days after the 101st Airborne took the Hill, they were ordered to abandon it. The assault on it never had any strategic or tactical purpose. The approximately 700 Americans and Vietnamese who died on it, died for nothing of any strategic value. The senior Vietnamese commanders who made the decision to defend the hill were as vain and stupid as the senior American commanders who ordered it taken. Maybe more so. Their estimated losses were five times as high.

What it stood for then — and what it stands for today — is what too much in war stands for: The incredible bravery of men doing acts which are absolutely futile.

Many years later, Gerry Offsay, who had been an attorney at Loeb and Loeb for some of the time I worked there, co-produced the movie “Hamburger Hill,” about the battle. After it was released, some of the veterans who had fought there were interviewed and one of their biggest complaints was that the terrain portrayed in the movie was not anywhere near as steep and difficult as the actual terrain of Hill 937. Some said that if the terrain in the movie had been the terrain they had been ordered to take, they would have taken it on Day One.

I asked Gerry about that one time. He told me that the film’s technical adviser had found a hill (I believe in the Phillipines) which closely resembled Hill 937, and vegetation had been added to it so that it was almost a twin for Hill 937. However, when they started rehearsing there, none of the actors could climb more than ten feet of it without falling back down. So they had to find a much less steep hill that the actors could navigate. That, more than anything to me illustrates the bravery of the men of the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division: They assaulted a hill under withering fire from 1,000 North Vietnamese regulars for 10 days where the terrain was so difficult that most men couldn’t climb it under any circumstances — and they took it. An act of bravery almost beyond comprehension!

Fascinating story. I've lost a few friends that fought on the ground over there. Your stories are exactly the same as theirs. Thank you.

 

[pbrad]

Great footage. I knew it was steep, but a 70 degree slope! Imagine assaulting a 3,000 foot high, 70 degree steep hill covered with a triple canopy of vegetation in the height of the rainy season, where mudslides are the norm, with a crack NVA Unit hidden in bunkers terraced up the hill reigning fire down on you.

The two senior officers they interviewed lied through their teeth about the military significance of the hill: visual control over the entire Au Shau Valley my ass. From the top of any summit there you could see the next hill in every direction. And the tops of others. Period. You couldn’t see troop or supply movements. In their minds at that time they might actually have thought that. Of course, neither of them had been to the summit, or anywhere near the hill. Once they got there, they might not have made that claim. But, more likely they would have repeated it because that was the official justification until we withdrew two days later.

Senior officer stupidity was common during Vietnam and Westmoreland was the main culprit. I was lucky enough to be stationed in the States during this stupid war but still was aware of the lack of sense showed by officers. A close friend was a squad leader who was in the thick of things and now has lung cancer which the VA has determined was caused by agent orange.

 

[pittdan77]

Senior officer stupidity was common during Vietnam and Westmoreland was the main culprit. I was lucky enough to be stationed in the States during this stupid war but still was aware of the lack of sense showed by officers. A close friend was a squad leader who was in the thick of things and now has lung cancer which the VA has determined was caused by agent orange.

I once had the honor of spending a day with General Norman Schwarzkopf. It was clear that he could get anyone to climb a hill or run straight into hell by just listening to him speak. I'll never forget him sitting down with a young serviceman that was about to be deployed to a war zone and telling him that our country doesn't need any more heroes; that our graveyards have plenty. I think about that a lot when ever I hear idiots clamoring to go to war.

 

[mike412]

Westmoreland and Maxwell Taylor bear a lot of responsibility, but in my mind the chief culprits were McNamara and Kissinger, the civilians who oversaw the policies. McNamara knew by the beginning of 1967 that the war couldn’t be won; the Pentagon Papers establish that. His solution: throwing more men into a war that every single person with real expertise had said couldn’t be won by throwing more men into it. Kissinger thought the best way to achieve a negotiated peace was throwing more men into the fire. His famous quote was “Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow.” They are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. Their punishment: Kissinger received the Nobel Peace Prize, became a celebrity and still offers his worthless advice to Presidents. McNamara at least had the sense of shame to basically retire from public life.

The thing most Americans never understood but anyone on the ground there for a few days understood perfectly was that there never were two Vietnams. It had been one country for more than 1200 years. Suddenly, the French drew a line down the middle and declared it was two countries, putting their corrupt Catholic oligarchs in charge of the South and its rubber plantations. The Vietnamese never would accept that.

The Chinese had been trying to conquer Vietnam for more than 1,000 years. The Vietnamese had fought them off. To them, the French and later the Americans were nothing but a minor nuisance. 99% of them didn’t know what Communism was; the other 1% didn’t care. Vietnam today is probably more capitalist than we are. Kissinger’s domino theory that if Vietnam fell, so would the rest of Southeast Asia, the Phillipines, Japan. How did that work out? And they gave him the Nobel Prize.

I had only been in country a few days when the owner of the local bar we frequented explained to me: “We don’t hate Americans. We like you GIs. You just have stupid leaders.” He was spot-on.

 

[wbrpanther]

Westmoreland and Maxwell Taylor bear a lot of responsibility, but in my mind the chief culprits were McNamara and Kissinger, the civilians who oversaw the policies. McNamara knew by the beginning of 1967 that the war couldn’t be won; the Pentagon Papers establish that. His solution: throwing more men into a war that every single person with real expertise had said couldn’t be won by throwing more men into it. Kissinger thought the best way to achieve a negotiated peace was throwing more men into the fire. His famous quote was “Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow.” They are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. Their punishment: Kissinger received the Nobel Peace Prize, became a celebrity and still offers his worthless advice to Presidents. McNamara at least had the sense of shame to basically retire from public life.

The thing most Americans never understood but anyone on the ground there for a few days understood perfectly was that there never were two Vietnams. It had been one country for more than 1200 years. Suddenly, the French drew a line down the middle and declared it was two countries, putting their corrupt Catholic oligarchs in charge of the South and its rubber plantations. The Vietnamese never would accept that.

The Chinese had been trying to conquer Vietnam for more than 1,000 years. The Vietnamese had fought them off. To them, the French and later the Americans were nothing but a minor nuisance. 99% of them didn’t know what Communism was; the other 1% didn’t care. Vietnam today is probably more capitalist than we are. Kissinger’s domino theory that if Vietnam fell, so would the rest of Southeast Asia, the Phillipines, Japan. How did that work out? And they gave him the Nobel Prize.

I had only been in country a few days when the owner of the local bar we frequented explained to me: “We don’t hate Americans. We like you GIs. You just have stupid leaders.” He was spot-on.

We should have kept our noses out of Southeast Asia after the Japanese were defeated in WWII. All the Vietnamese wanted was independence from France and the French should have been told to give that colony up and let them rule themselves. When they were kicked out at Dien Bien Fu Viet Nam should have been left to the Vietnamese.

They had free elections set up but when the Americans saw
that Ho Chi Minh, who was way more patriot than Communist, was going to win they were cancelled, which eventually led to the quagmire that killed 58,00 of my generation and wounded so many more.

And all we learn is to do it again. Thank you Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowiz.

 

[Panther_in_Kentucky]

It’s now May 20 in Vietnam. 50 years ago today, the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division took the summit of Hill 937 in the Au Shau Valley, west of Hue. Hill 937 is better known as Hamburger Hill. That final assault ended a battle which had gone on intermittently for 10 days.

Approximately two years later, I was assigned to a 101st Airborne Division base camp about 10 clicks from Hill 937. (I have too much admiration and respect for the 101st Airborne to claim to have been a member. I didn’t go through the training they did and didn’t earn the right to wear the Screaming Eagle on my sleeve; I was assigned to them on temporary duty for 75 days. Although technically I was authorized to wear the Screaming Eagle on my right sleeve, as my last combat unit, after that assignment ended, I never did because I hadn’t earned it. )

The Au Shau Valley ran along the narrowest part of Vietnam and had become a major supply route used by the North Vietnamese regulars to move men and supplies into the country through Laos. The job of the 101st Airborne in May 1969 was to “interdict” the Ho Chi Minh trail to stop, or at least disrupt, that flow of men and supplies. It was as futile in May 1971 as it had been two years earlier. The Ho Chi Minh trail was not like Interstate 79. It had no fixed path. It was fluid and moved wherever the Vietnamese needed it to be. If we were blocking Point X, it moved to Point Y. Point Y might only be 5 miles away, but with the dense jungle and endless series of hills and mountains, it might as well have been on the Moon. We knew it. Those giving orders to our senior commanders were the only ones too stupid to know it or, alternatively, too stubborn to accept it.

Ironically, few ethnic Vietnamese lived in the Au Shau Valley. They lived along the coast, in cities like Hue and Da Nang. The primary residents of the area were the indigenous Montagnard tribespeople, many of whom were Christians, converted either by the French or Protestant missionaries. (Other ethnic minorities in Southeast Asia, like the Hmong and the indigenous tribes in northern Thailand also are primarily Christian, although I doubt most Christians would recognize their services.) The Montagnards didn’t speak Vietnamese, but instead spoke a few different indigenous languages. There were about 1 million of them in 1971, and from what I have read, that approximate number remain today. Some of them fought for us.

Hamburger Hill was famous by May 1971 when I began my assignment in the Au Shau Valley. But, I never got to visit it. Because two days after the 101st Airborne took the Hill, they were ordered to abandon it. The assault on it never had any strategic or tactical purpose. The approximately 700 Americans and Vietnamese who died on it, died for nothing of any strategic value. The senior Vietnamese commanders who made the decision to defend the hill were as vain and stupid as the senior American commanders who ordered it taken. Maybe more so. Their estimated losses were five times as high.

What it stood for then — and what it stands for today — is what too much in war stands for: The incredible bravery of men doing acts which are absolutely futile.

Many years later, Gerry Offsay, who had been an attorney at Loeb and Loeb for some of the time I worked there, co-produced the movie “Hamburger Hill,” about the battle. After it was released, some of the veterans who had fought there were interviewed and one of their biggest complaints was that the terrain portrayed in the movie was not anywhere near as steep and difficult as the actual terrain of Hill 937. Some said that if the terrain in the movie had been the terrain they had been ordered to take, they would have taken it on Day One.

I asked Gerry about that one time. He told me that the film’s technical adviser had found a hill (I believe in the Phillipines) which closely resembled Hill 937, and vegetation had been added to it so that it was almost a twin for Hill 937. However, when they started rehearsing there, none of the actors could climb more than ten feet of it without falling back down. So they had to find a much less steep hill that the actors could navigate. That, more than anything to me illustrates the bravery of the men of the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division: They assaulted a hill under withering fire from 1,000 North Vietnamese regulars for 10 days where the terrain was so difficult that most men couldn’t climb it under any circumstances — and they took it. An act of bravery almost beyond comprehension!

Thanks for your Service Mike!

 

[Saboteur]

Westmoreland and Maxwell Taylor bear a lot of responsibility, but in my mind the chief culprits were McNamara and Kissinger, the civilians who oversaw the policies. McNamara knew by the beginning of 1967 that the war couldn’t be won; the Pentagon Papers establish that. His solution: throwing more men into a war that every single person with real expertise had said couldn’t be won by throwing more men into it. Kissinger thought the best way to achieve a negotiated peace was throwing more men into the fire. His famous quote was “Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow.” They are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans. Their punishment: Kissinger received the Nobel Peace Prize, became a celebrity and still offers his worthless advice to Presidents. McNamara at least had the sense of shame to basically retire from public life.

The thing most Americans never understood but anyone on the ground there for a few days understood perfectly was that there never were two Vietnams. It had been one country for more than 1200 years. Suddenly, the French drew a line down the middle and declared it was two countries, putting their corrupt Catholic oligarchs in charge of the South and its rubber plantations. The Vietnamese never would accept that.

The Chinese had been trying to conquer Vietnam for more than 1,000 years. The Vietnamese had fought them off. To them, the French and later the Americans were nothing but a minor nuisance. 99% of them didn’t know what Communism was; the other 1% didn’t care. Vietnam today is probably more capitalist than we are. Kissinger’s domino theory that if Vietnam fell, so would the rest of Southeast Asia, the Phillipines, Japan. How did that work out? And they gave him the Nobel Prize.

I had only been in country a few days when the owner of the local bar we frequented explained to me: “We don’t hate Americans. We like you GIs. You just have stupid leaders.” He was spot-on.

Then stop electing stupid people as leaders.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Then stop electing stupid people as leaders.

Yeah. But it seems like they are the only ones who are running anymore or at least have some support.

 

[Bethlehemjohn]

It’s now May 20 in Vietnam. 50 years ago today, the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division took the summit of Hill 937 in the Au Shau Valley, west of Hue. Hill 937 is better known as Hamburger Hill. That final assault ended a battle which had gone on intermittently for 10 days.

Approximately two years later, I was assigned to a 101st Airborne Division base camp about 10 clicks from Hill 937. (I have too much admiration and respect for the 101st Airborne to claim to have been a member. I didn’t go through the training they did and didn’t earn the right to wear the Screaming Eagle on my sleeve; I was assigned to them on temporary duty for 75 days. Although technically I was authorized to wear the Screaming Eagle on my right sleeve, as my last combat unit, after that assignment ended, I never did because I hadn’t earned it. )

The Au Shau Valley ran along the narrowest part of Vietnam and had become a major supply route used by the North Vietnamese regulars to move men and supplies into the country through Laos. The job of the 101st Airborne in May 1969 was to “interdict” the Ho Chi Minh trail to stop, or at least disrupt, that flow of men and supplies. It was as futile in May 1971 as it had been two years earlier. The Ho Chi Minh trail was not like Interstate 79. It had no fixed path. It was fluid and moved wherever the Vietnamese needed it to be. If we were blocking Point X, it moved to Point Y. Point Y might only be 5 miles away, but with the dense jungle and endless series of hills and mountains, it might as well have been on the Moon. We knew it. Those giving orders to our senior commanders were the only ones too stupid to know it or, alternatively, too stubborn to accept it.

Ironically, few ethnic Vietnamese lived in the Au Shau Valley. They lived along the coast, in cities like Hue and Da Nang. The primary residents of the area were the indigenous Montagnard tribespeople, many of whom were Christians, converted either by the French or Protestant missionaries. (Other ethnic minorities in Southeast Asia, like the Hmong and the indigenous tribes in northern Thailand also are primarily Christian, although I doubt most Christians would recognize their services.) The Montagnards didn’t speak Vietnamese, but instead spoke a few different indigenous languages. There were about 1 million of them in 1971, and from what I have read, that approximate number remain today. Some of them fought for us.

Hamburger Hill was famous by May 1971 when I began my assignment in the Au Shau Valley. But, I never got to visit it. Because two days after the 101st Airborne took the Hill, they were ordered to abandon it. The assault on it never had any strategic or tactical purpose. The approximately 700 Americans and Vietnamese who died on it, died for nothing of any strategic value. The senior Vietnamese commanders who made the decision to defend the hill were as vain and stupid as the senior American commanders who ordered it taken. Maybe more so. Their estimated losses were five times as high.

What it stood for then — and what it stands for today — is what too much in war stands for: The incredible bravery of men doing acts which are absolutely futile.

Many years later, Gerry Offsay, who had been an attorney at Loeb and Loeb for some of the time I worked there, co-produced the movie “Hamburger Hill,” about the battle. After it was released, some of the veterans who had fought there were interviewed and one of their biggest complaints was that the terrain portrayed in the movie was not anywhere near as steep and difficult as the actual terrain of Hill 937. Some said that if the terrain in the movie had been the terrain they had been ordered to take, they would have taken it on Day One.

I asked Gerry about that one time. He told me that the film’s technical adviser had found a hill (I believe in the Phillipines) which closely resembled Hill 937, and vegetation had been added to it so that it was almost a twin for Hill 937. However, when they started rehearsing there, none of the actors could climb more than ten feet of it without falling back down. So they had to find a much less steep hill that the actors could navigate. That, more than anything to me illustrates the bravery of the men of the 3rd Battalion of the 187th Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division: They assaulted a hill under withering fire from 1,000 North Vietnamese regulars for 10 days where the terrain was so difficult that most men couldn’t climb it under any circumstances — and they took it. An act of bravery almost beyond comprehension!

Great stuff, Mike. Thanks for that and your service!

 

[FreeportPanther]

Yeah. But it seems like they are the only ones who are running anymore or at least have some support.

That's why it is encouraging to see more military veterans seeking and winning office.
No one hates war more than the soldier who has actually experienced it.

There are lots of "Chicken Hawks" guys like Cheney, Bolton, Buchanan, and many others who are perfectly OK with sending others to die for great causes, but when it was their turn they conveniently found excuses to dodge it.

Eisenhower was a career military man but he saw the danger of $$$ and special interest in waging war. He famously warned of the "Military/Industrial" complex.

The "domino theory" predated Kissinger. The fanatical fear of the spread of Soviet Communism and influence began right after WW2. It first broke out in Korea, but Viet Nam was the penultimate example.

Substitute Radical Muslims for Communists and you have the cause de Jour.
Sadly, Rinse and Repeat.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

That's why it is encouraging to see more military veterans seeking and winning office.
No one hates war more than the soldier who has actually experienced it.

There are lots of "Chicken Hawks" guys like Cheney, Bolton, Buchanan, and many others who are perfectly OK with sending others to die for great causes, but when it was their turn they conveniently found excuses to dodge it.

Eisenhower was a career military man but he saw the danger of $$$ and special interest in waging war. He famously warned of the "Military/Industrial" complex.

The "domino theory" predated Kissinger. The fanatical fear of the spread of Soviet Communism and influence began right after WW2. It first broke out in Korea, but Viet Nam was the penultimate example.

Substitute Radical Muslims for Communists and you have the cause de Jour.
Sadly, Rinse and Repeat.

Bingo Freeport, bingo. I was going to post something similar.

It is why some have hinted they would like a return of the draft, because then it makes a military option, much more of a political risk.

I believe, and of course I am just me, a commoner, a civilian, but if we are going to send troops to engage, we have to have the following three things:

1) True threat to US or Allied properties and lives.
2) A clear scope.
3) The intent to win, whatever, however, we don't go to just engage and get our people killed, and spend billions effing around. Which has been every confrontation since WWII except for perhaps the first Gulf War. Which was limited in scope, we overwhelmed them not getting stuck in a quagmire, though I am not sure how much of point #1 was affected.

I do know this, from obviously having coworkers and friends from Europe. When we were attacked on 9/11, Europe and the world supported us. They all figured "okay, you effed up now, you poked the eye of the big tiger" and that the US would go in and annihilate the fundamental muslim terrorists. Because let's face it, it was (is) affecting Europe too and other places. And well.......we decided to eff around and make it Vietnam Part II. And we in many cases created even stronger and more organized terrorist networks, more refugees, and did little to affect the Mideast as we now see today.

 

[pittdan77]

Eisenhower was a career military man but he saw the danger of $$$ and special interest in waging war. He famously warned of the "Military/Industrial" complex.

Sadly, that's exactly what we've become. Too many people are making a lot of money off of never-ending wars.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Sadly, that's exactly what we've become. Too many people are making a lot of money off of never-ending wars.

I often think of Colin Powell. At one time, he looked like a very strong candidate to become President. His resignation and disappearance from the political and public arena to me, shows a tacit disproval of our military strategy in Afghanistan and Iraq following 9/11. Thoughts?

 

[pittdan77]

I often think of Colin Powell. At one time, he looked like a very strong candidate to become President. His resignation and disappearance from the political and public arena to me, shows a tacit disproval of our military strategy in Afghanistan and Iraq following 9/11. Thoughts?

Well, he received three electoral votes for President in 2016 and he never actually ran. I don't think he has run because he'd be characterized as a "liberal" Republican.

 

[wbrpanther]

I often think of Colin Powell. At one time, he looked like a very strong candidate to become President. His resignation and disappearance from the political and public arena to me, shows a tacit disproval of our military strategy in Afghanistan and Iraq following 9/11. Thoughts?

I always admired Colin Powell. He made a major mistake when he was led by the nose to present false information at the UN to justify our lead up to the Iraq war. But he warned Bush not to do it. He basically told him "if you break it you will own it". Bush could have followed the Powell thinking or be goaded on by Cheney/Rumsfeld. He chose the latter.

 

[McKee Place]

Bingo Freeport, bingo. I was going to post something similar.

It is why some have hinted they would like a return of the draft, because then it makes a military option, much more of a political risk.

I believe, and of course I am just me, a commoner, a civilian, but if we are going to send troops to engage, we have to have the following three things:

1) True threat to US or Allied properties and lives.
2) A clear scope.
3) The intent to win, whatever, however, we don't go to just engage and get our people killed, and spend billions effing around. Which has been every confrontation since WWII except for perhaps the first Gulf War. Which was limited in scope, we overwhelmed them not getting stuck in a quagmire, though I am not sure how much of point #1 was affected.

I do know this, from obviously having coworkers and friends from Europe. When we were attacked on 9/11, Europe and the world supported us. They all figured "okay, you effed up now, you poked the eye of the big tiger" and that the US would go in and annihilate the fundamental muslim terrorists. Because let's face it, it was (is) affecting Europe too and other places. And well.......we decided to eff around and make it Vietnam Part II. And we in many cases created even stronger and more organized terrorist networks, more refugees, and did little to affect the Mideast as we now see today.

I think we would have pounded a specific nation into dust if it had been a single nation. But the problem was, and is, that it's all phantoms and shadows now. It's probably refreshing and reassuring to many that we've repositioned back onto Russia and Iran and N Korea as "enemies". That is easy and convenient for most to understand. But Isis? Al Queda? Like trying to wipe out all the cockroaches in the entire South Oakland region. And of course they aren't defeated now, they'll be back under some other random name. But we find it too difficult to fathom that so we fixate on a country, with real borders, with a real leader sitting in a real building in a real city, even if he's not remotely the real threat.

 

[rmf05]

My first boss was a Hamburger Hill vet. 2 plus tours without a scratch despite tons of contact. He was going up the hill with zero resistance when he slipped and shattered his ankle. He was sitting at a medical LZ contemplating the end of his Vietnam experience and how fortunate he was when an American jet napalmed him and everyone else at the LZ. He woke up from his coma several weeks later with burns over 60 percent of his body including a badly disfigured face and a crippled right arm.

My father in law lived and fought with the montagnard villagers for 3 years as a Green Beret. He went back there 20 years ago. After the Americans left, all his villager friends and their families were exterminated by the communists. He's still got some real animosity towards the politicians that allowed all those atrocities to happen after he and those villagers had given so much.