OT: NBA looking at English Soccer for ideas...

[Fk_Pitt]

on how to improve their game. I like it. They are looking at changes to the playoffs (having a play in format as a new path to the playoffs) and even looking at a “Cup” competition to coincide with the NBA season. A quote from adam Silver:

Discuss.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

With all the flopping now in the NBA it’s been pretty clear someone’s been taking notes from soccer.

 

[Ski11585]

I feel like the NBA does a good job of trying to evaluate what they have in place to keep things fresh and competitive. Looks like another way to try and combat tanking.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

not an English soccer fan. can someone tell me what they do differently? Do they have some sort of consolation tournament?

 

[Pitt79]

I would absolutely love a concurrent tournament to the regular season, like the US Open Cup, in soccer, even add the D league teams, It would be fun. More interesting than the regular season itself. That's a great idea, and it wouldn't even be a lot of games for the teams to add, some teams might only play one game, maybe a few 4-5-6?

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

82 games is very long and basically exists as a historical relic of a pre-TV barn storming era. However, I don't think less total games under the same format is a particularly good solution. I hope they come up with some interesting twists! NBA fans are pretty open minded in my experience and the league would react to any major backlash, so I think they'll come up with something.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

With all the flopping now in the NBA it’s been pretty clear someone’s been taking notes from soccer.

Wow. I would have thought we would have at least 4-5 good responses before we got the same old, tired, unfunny, inaccurate, unoriginal and ignorant soccer take. Congrats on accomplishing such a feat with response #1 of the thread!

Back to the discussion...

Even though I am not much of an NBA fan, I do recognize the players as perhaps the best athletes in the world. And even they get starry eyed when they go to London each year to play a game and get to meet all the stars of English Soccer who they themselves watch and admire. The EPL is the 4th most profitable sports league in the world, and when you consider England is a small country and faces competition from every other country in the world who has their own top division soccer league, it’s smart of the NBA to at least kick the tires and study why the EPL is a marketing juggernaut.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

not an English soccer fan. can someone tell me what they do differently? Do they have some sort of consolation tournament?

So two things cited so far:

1) within England’s top 2 leagues they have promotion and relegation. So the bottom three finishers in the Premier League get relegated to the 2nd division (think MLB and AAA). Then the top 2 teams in the 2nd division automatically get promoted to the premier league, and teams 3,4,5,6 compete in a mini tournament for the 3rd promotion into the Premier League. That mini tournament is a really big deal and drives interest via attendance and tv viewership. The NBA is looking at maybe teams 8,9,10,11 playing a mini tourney to get the 8th playoff spot. At least that’s how I understand it.

2) the other idea is a 2nd competition for NBA teams to play that runs alongside the league schedule. English soccer teams compete in 3-4 competitions per calendar year that are held throughout the year and worked around the Premier League schedule. It would be cool for the top 4 NBA teams each year to play another competition against the championship teams and other top finishing teams from Spain, Greece, turkey, France, etc.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

The NBA is definitely interested in expanding to Europe but it doesn't make sense for it to be one team because of the travel involved. You'd probably need a 4-5 team division to add.

That could be separate from the other ideas, and I think is likely much sooner than expansion to China.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

on how to improve their game. I like it. They are looking at changes to the playoffs (having a play in format as a new path to the playoffs) and even looking at a “Cup” competition to coincide with the NBA season. A quote from adam Silver:

Discuss.

I'll take this one:

Expand the NBA to 60 teams with 6 10 team divisions.

Top 5 in each division make playoffs, top 3 are promoted. Bottom 3 are relegated. 2 wildcard entries make 32 team tournament. Round of 32 and 16 are March Madness like one game playoffs. Losers in those round play a Europa League-ish/NITish Cup tournament with the winner getting a bye to the next season's Final 8.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Wow. I would have thought we would have at least 4-5 good responses before we got the same old, tired, unfunny, inaccurate, unoriginal and ignorant soccer take. Congrats on accomplishing such a feat with response #1 of the thread!

Back to the discussion...

Even though I am not much of an NBA fan, I do recognize the players as perhaps the best athletes in the world. And even they get starry eyed when they go to London each year to play a game and get to meet all the stars of English Soccer who they themselves watch and admire. The EPL is the 4th most profitable sports league in the world, and when you consider England is a small country and faces competition from every other country in the world who has their own top division soccer league, it’s smart of the NBA to at least kick the tires and study why the EPL is a marketing juggernaut.

You’re welcome. Cause soccer players don’t go down while not touched like they’ve been shot with an elephant gun.

I’ll admit I don’t care for soccer but I’m not ripping on it generally. For those who enjoy - and there are billions - have at it. But the flopping is an embarrassment. And it is in the NBA as well. James Harden grabbing his throat as if he was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald was a great look.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

You’re welcome. Cause soccer players don’t go down while not touched like they’ve been shot with an elephant gun.

I’ll admit I don’t care for soccer but I’m not ripping on it generally. For those who enjoy - and there are billions - have at it. But the flopping is an embarrassment. And it is in the NBA as well. James Harden grabbing his throat as if he was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald was a great look.

We are talking about English soccer, not Italian, South American, etc. That’s why your statement was inaccurate. There’s flopping in all sports, English soccer included. But it’s not what English soccer is known for, except to people who have no idea. English soccer is a very physical league though. Maybe it’s similar to the way people rip the NBA for not playing defense, or MLB players adjusting their batting gloves after every pitch. Those things are all a part of the game. Just not as much a part of the game that haters like to say it is.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

not an English soccer fan. can someone tell me what they do differently? Do they have some sort of consolation tournament?

Yes, it's called the Europa League. It's like an in-season NIT but the winner gets a bid to next season's Champions League (ie NCAAT).

So using the EPL for example. 1-4 get Champions League bids. 5-7 get Europa League bids. 18-20 get relegated to the lowest division. 14-18 are fighting like heck to avoid relegation and 8-13 are fighting like heck to make the Europa League. Every game matters.

With the global supply of basketball talent, I have said for years the NBA needs to expand with some element of promotion/relegation.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I'll take this one:

Expand the NBA to 60 teams with 6 10 team divisions.

Top 5 in each division make playoffs, top 3 are promoted. Bottom 3 are relegated. 2 wildcard entries make 32 team tournament. Round of 32 and 16 are March Madness like one game playoffs. Losers in those round play a Europa League-ish/NITish Cup tournament with the winner getting a bye to the next season's Final 8.

Jesus.

my head is spinning.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I feel like the NBA does a good job of trying to evaluate what they have in place to keep things fresh and competitive. Looks like another way to try and combat tanking.

And having more teams and cities interested late in the season. After that though, aren’t they just playing to be the sacrificial lamb for the #1 seed? That’s tough. How often does an 8 beat a 1 in the NBA?

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Jesus.

my head is spinning.

SMF is great at coming up with “out if the box” ideas. Got to give him that.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

We are talking about English soccer, not Italian, South American, etc. That’s why your statement was inaccurate. There’s flopping in all sports, English soccer included. But it’s not what English soccer is known for, except to people who have no idea. English soccer is a very physical league though. Maybe it’s similar to the way people rip the NBA for not playing defense, or MLB players adjusting their batting gloves after every pitch. Those things are all a part of the game. Just not as much a part of the game that haters like to say it is.

Well FWIW I wasn’t suggesting that flopping is what soccer is known for whether it’s the Premier League or some barely known corner of the world. Though I don’t care for it I do appreciate the athletes. My jaw has dropped at seeing some of the highlights I’ve seen over the years. They’re no less amazing than anyone in any other sport.

And really it was just a joke so lighten up a bit.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

SMF is great at coming up with “out if the box” ideas. Got to give him that.

I’m going to sit down with a beer tonight and slowly internalize his post. It may be good. Who knows? It just sounds too complicated and we all know how leagues try to dummy things down for average Americans. Hell, look at the NHL and how they did away with the Wales and Campbell conference, and the Patrick, Adams, Norris and smythe divisions because they thought it confused Americans. Lol.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

I’m going to sit down with a beer tonight and slowly internalize his post. It may be good. Who knows? It just sounds too complicated and we all know how leagues try to dummy things down for average Americans. Hell, look at the NHL and how they did away with the Wales and Campbell conference, and the Patrick, Adams, Norris and smythe divisions because they thought it confused Americans. Lol.

Some sort of mini league in Europe where they maybe compete with tier 2 nba non playoff qualifiers could be interesting.

I love how soccer has teams move up and down in leagues. That’s sweet. Not sure how you implement that in nba with Europe teams. That body of water between us and them creates some logistical issues.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

The NBA is definitely interested in expanding to Europe but it doesn't make sense for it to be one team because of the travel involved. You'd probably need a 4-5 team division to add.

That could be separate from the other ideas, and I think is likely much sooner than expansion to China.

Don't worry hi speed rail between the US and Europe will fix that problem pronto.

 

[burnie1105]

not an English soccer fan. can someone tell me what they do differently? Do they have some sort of consolation tournament?

Every soccer club in the world has, essentially, 2-3 different competitions happening per season:

1. Their domestic league (ex. Premier League)
2. Their domestic cup-tournament (ex. FA Cup)
3. Potentially a federation-level tournament (ex. UEFA Champions League)

There are also other ancillary competitions; for example, England has a knockout-tournament (Carabao/EFL Cup) that is open to the top four tiers of clubs, but it is nowhere near as prestigious or coveted as the FA Cup (a tournament which is open to literally every club in England). And every summer the winner of the FA Cup plays the winner of the Premier League (or the runner-up if its the same team) for the FA Community Shield, which is kind of like the ultimate pre-season game (clubs don't really care about it, but it's held at Wembley and draws a big crowd).

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Don't worry hi speed rail between the US and Europe will fix that problem pronto.

we can build a tunnel from downtown to the north side for a trolley, we can do this with America and Europe. same concept, same exact challenges. river, ocean, water is water..

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I feel like the NBA does a good job of trying to evaluate what they have in place to keep things fresh and competitive. Looks like another way to try and combat tanking.

Yeah, I am all for that....but honestly, and the same thing with the NHL, I think the draft lottery process is way too punitive to the bottom team(s). Especially if there is a really bad team or two.

This year, the Knicks were BAD. Really, really BAD!!! Did they have the best chance of winning the lottery? No. They had the best chance tied with the next two worst teams the Cavs and Suns. Each had a 14% chance. But the team who won was New Orleans who moved up 6 spots from 7. Memphis moved up 6 spots to the 2nd pick. The Knicks dropped to the 3rd.

The NHL is a little, just a little more fair, the team who finished last gets an 18.5% to win the lottery, the 2nd place team gets a 13.5% chance and so on...

Each system has every non playoff qualifier gets some percentage. As there are usually 1-2-3 really bad teams and usually, 1-2-3 really great players it seems patently unfair.

I think the bottom 10 teams (15 non playoff teams) should get 20% (each a 1% chance) and then the remaining 90% divided up between the top 5 teams as:
Last 36%
2nd to last 26%
3rd to last 15%
4th to last 8%
5th to last 5%

This gives those on the bottom a much better shot.

Anyways, apologize I just did what I hate others for doing, going completely tangential and possibly hijacking the thread.

 

[cease10]

I like the idea of in season tournaments; 2-3 max.

The other day, I was actually thinking that the WNBA should do this to help them draw interest.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Don't see a need to make the lottery odds better for teams like the Knicks. They are a horribly managed franchise. There is a luxury tax for teams that spend the most. There is enough parity. The Knicks are bad mostly because they've had a bad owner and GMs, not because of lottery odds.

 

[Ski11585]

And having more teams and cities interested late in the season. After that though, aren’t they just playing to be the sacrificial lamb for the #1 seed? That’s tough. How often does an 8 beat a 1 in the NBA?

I think it’s happened twice in the 2010s. Pretty sure the Warriors beat the Mavs the year Dirk won MVP.

 

[below0w]

Cup competitions will never be as interesting in a 30 team league with 1 division. The magic of the various cups is that you'll have absolute minnows alongside clubs worth billions. The FA Cup, for example, had 736 teams at the start. Even the comparatively more limited (and much less prestigious) Carabao Cup had 92.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Cup competitions will never be as interesting in a 30 team league with 1 division. The magic of the various cups is that you'll have absolute minnows alongside clubs worth billions. The FA Cup, for example, had 736 teams at the start. Even the comparatively more limited (and much less prestigious) Carabao Cup had 92.

Right. If the NBA is going to do this then first of all you simply must include the G-League teams. And it would be even better if you included some number of college teams as well, although for the most part that would simply underscore the huge gulf between college basketball and the NBA. But then again the English put up with a lot of 6-0 FA Cup games for that magical run where a third division team makes a run to the quarters or something like that.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

we can build a tunnel from downtown to the north side for a trolley, we can do this with America and Europe. same concept, same exact challenges. river, ocean, water is water..

We can do that, but there is one problem that they need to solve first. Given what the north side tunnel cost and how far it went and adding in inflation they have not yet manufactured enough zeros to estimate the cost.

 

[Warchtorch]

On special days like MLK Day, I think you should bring 4 teams to a set location and play a tournament with two 15 minute halves with limited timeouts. These games would count towards your standings. If you want to take something from soccer, how about non-stop action and incorporating commercials during the action.

Everybody would have 2 games, with an early and late session to maximize ticket sales. Could you imagine some of those arenas and matchups?

 

[BuffetParrothead]

We can do that, but there is one problem that they need to solve first. Given what the north side tunnel cost and how far it went and adding in inflation they have not yet manufactured enough zeros to estimate the cost.

It's Over?
They would just need a responsible project manager.

Joe,

 

[levance2]

Right. If the NBA is going to do this then first of all you simply must include the G-League teams. And it would be even better if you included some number of college teams as well, although for the most part that would simply underscore the huge gulf between college basketball and the NBA. But then again the English put up with a lot of 6-0 FA Cup games for that magical run where a third division team makes a run to the quarters or something like that.

Ironically, you’d probably have the talent for this if so many Americans didn’t leave after college to play in Europe.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

82 games is very long and basically exists as a historical relic of a pre-TV barn storming era. However, I don't think less total games under the same format is a particularly good solution. I hope they come up with some interesting twists! NBA fans are pretty open minded in my experience and the league would react to any major backlash, so I think they'll come up with something.

When you add in pre-season exhibitions and the playoffs (for the teams that make them) the season can stretch to the vicinity of 120+ games--this is already way too many games, IMO and can lead to shortened careers of players due to cumulative chronic repetitive motion injury.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Ironically, you’d probably have the talent for this if so many Americans didn’t leave after college to play in Europe.

There is very little talent difference between the G-league and the Euro leagues.

 

[Pitt79]

With all the flopping now in the NBA it’s been pretty clear someone’s been taking notes from soccer.

I love flopping in all sports, I as a coach would train players to flop to try to draw undeserved fouls, it's part of every sport, it's a strategy.

 

[Pitt79]

Some sort of mini league in Europe where they maybe compete with tier 2 nba non playoff qualifiers could be interesting.

I love how soccer has teams move up and down in leagues. That’s sweet. Not sure how you implement that in nba with Europe teams. That body of water between us and them creates some logistical issues.

I would hate it if the NBA created their own league in Europe though. Europe has the EuroBasket which is like the European Basketball Champions League and it's pretty good and teams there have traditions and long histories. I would not want them to mess with that to accommodate Americans, But maybe an All World Champions League, with several NBA teams and the best of EuroBasket and some Chinese and South American teams would be a fun thing to watch, even if the Warriors won that every year too, LOL

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I could see a midseason tournament replace the all star game and not count as a "title" but as, say, 10 bonus wins towards playoff standings/home court advantage.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

I could see a midseason tournament replace the all star game and not count as a "title" but as, say, 10 bonus wins towards playoff standings/home court advantage.

Well they need something to liven the boredom that comes from playing so many games in a season where each game (especially early and mid-season ones) when taken individually are practically meaningless and hence only slightly more interesting than watching kids playing hoops in the park.

 

[Ski11585]

There is very little talent difference between the G-league and the Euro leagues.

Watch a lot of G League games do you?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Watch a lot of G League games do you?

Dont have to. Look at the rosters. G-league is loaded with fringe NBA guys, same as Europe.