OT Neil Walker is gone

[CaptainMurphy]

I don't have an issue with Walker being traded. Based on what the pirates try to do, they could use someone with a little more range at second (as long as that is what gets put there)

I am struggling with why we traded for Neis, when we could have kept Happ for just a little more money. Happ was lights out down the stretch. Unless the pirates truly believed he could not sustain that, but there was no indication that he couldn't. Unless I am missing something.

Uncle Ray can't fix everyone and not all of his attempts were successful. So can anyone tell me why Keeping Happ for 12M who pitched unbelievably well in Aug and Sept was not as good as keeping Neis who didn't have a great year last year?

Happ has been good for about two months. Prior to those two months, his career has actually been largely worse than Niese's. So, with Niese, the Bucs get a younger pitcher with similar upside to Happ who has had more sustained success throughout his career. And, if he stinks (doubtful), the Bucs can dump him after year one. If he is great, the Bucs have him for three years with his options (at a cheaper rate than Happ's). The Blue Jays are stuck with Happ for three years, regardless of if he maintains his late-2015 form or if he reverts back closer to his career averages.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I don't have an issue with Walker being traded. Based on what the pirates try to do, they could use someone with a little more range at second (as long as that is what gets put there)

I am struggling with why we traded for Neis, when we could have kept Happ for just a little more money. Happ was lights out down the stretch. Unless the pirates truly believed he could not sustain that, but there was no indication that he couldn't. Unless I am missing something.

Uncle Ray can't fix everyone and not all of his attempts were successful. So can anyone tell me why Keeping Happ for 12M who pitched unbelievably well in Aug and Sept was not as good as keeping Neis who didn't have a great year last year?

You really don't understand why the Pirates would prefer Niese to Happ? How about this. Other than Happ's two great months in Pittsburgh Niese has been a better pitcher for several years now. Not significantly better, but a little better pretty consistently. Niese's contract will pay him an average of $2 million per season less than Happ's will, and Happ's money is all guaranteed while only this year's money is for Niese, meaning if their performance would collapse the Jays are stuck with Happ while the Pirates would not be stuck with Niese. And Niese is 29 years old while Happ is 33, so it is more likely that Niese will maintain more value over the next three years than Happ will.

If it wasn't for that great two month stint in Pittsburgh for Happ last season no one would consider Happ to be worth more than Niese. Does anyone really think that two month stretch is sustainable for the next three seasons, when Happ will be 33-35, years old?

 

[CaptainMurphy]

If it wasn't for that great two month stint in Pittsburgh for Happ last season no one would consider Happ to be worth more than Niese. Does anyone really think that two month stretch is sustainable for the next three seasons, when Happ will be 33-35, years old?

If Happ were able to sustain his late 2015 performance, he would probably compete for the Cy Young and make the AS team every year. If the Pirates thought he could do that, I'm sure they would have signed him to a contract immediately! In general, the last two months aside, Happ has been a homer-prone, walk-prone, flyball pitcher his entire career. Who knows, maybe he can sustain the success, but I doubt it.

 

[UPitt129]

Man, seeing the reaction to this trade from Pirates fans makes me truly realize how little they really understand baseball.

They traded a guy, who they have one year left of, for a solid #3 or #4 starter they will have for 3 years if he pans out. They didn't trade a star...they trade an above average player. Walker's value was not very high because he only has one year left before FA. It seems though that the only acceptable return for Walker though for some fans would have been Degrom, Syndegard, or Harvey. Ridiculous.

Niese, while he had a down year last year, was very good the previous 3 years. Add to it that he will be pitching in one of the best parks for lefties, working with a team that utilizes shifts better than just about anyone to help a pitcher, and working with Searage, I think this is an absolutely amazing deal for the Pirates.

 

[Pittx9]

Man, seeing the reaction to this trade from Pirates fans makes me truly realize how little they really understand baseball.

They traded a guy, who they have one year left of, for a solid #3 or #4 starter they will have for 3 years if he pans out. They didn't trade a star...they trade an above average player. Walker's value was not very high because he only has one year left before FA. It seems though that the only acceptable return for Walker though for some fans would have been Degrom, Syndegard, or Harvey. Ridiculous.

Niese, while he had a down year last year, was very good the previous 3 years. Add to it that he will be pitching in one of the best parks for lefties, working with a team that utilizes shifts better than just about anyone to help a pitcher, and working with Searage, I think this is an absolutely amazing deal for the Pirates.

I loved Walker, one of my favorite Pirates of all time, and I even think the actual deal was fair. But I just can't ignore the fact the Pirates infield will be an Abbot and Costello joke to start the season.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

.

SRod can play all of the IF

Theoretically, so could I . . . but not at the major league level. He's a joke in the middle infield.

 

[maxxwell]

Bucs have been ahead of the curve over their renaissance and it seems that they are trying to place greater emphasis on defense at the moment while also trying to maximize their return for their budget constraints. Perhaps the advanced analytics favor this approach. Pedro and Neil are big losses on the offensive side, but the loss might be made up in defense. I trust in Huntington and am willing to let things play out. With that said, it certainly is a possibility that the Pirates might end up with too much financial disadvantage to continue at their current level given where the "market" seems to be heading.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

Just a "FWIW" type of post from Fangraphs, speaking about how teams "win" the pitching offseason. They don't do it how you think -- or, if you follow the Pirates and baseball in general closely, maybe it is done how you think.

Winning the Pitching Offseason

 

[MrGee]

I don't have an issue with Walker being traded. Based on what the pirates try to do, they could use someone with a little more range at second (as long as that is what gets put there)

I am struggling with why we traded for Neis, when we could have kept Happ for just a little more money. Happ was lights out down the stretch. Unless the pirates truly believed he could not sustain that, but there was no indication that he couldn't. Unless I am missing something.

Uncle Ray can't fix everyone and not all of his attempts were successful. So can anyone tell me why Keeping Happ for 12M who pitched unbelievably well in Aug and Sept was not as good as keeping Neis who didn't have a great year last year?

I agree---great strategy missed

 

[Safety Blitz]

Follow the money.
It's all about the money.
Bucs management didn't like Walker because he wouldn't give team a hometown discount.
And Nutting would rather give a player the finger than an extra nickel.
$$$$$$$

 

[KiwiJeff]

Follow the money.
It's all about the money.
Bucs management didn't like Walker because he wouldn't give team a hometown discount.
And Nutting would rather give a player the finger than an extra nickel.
$$$$$$$

You're right, it is all about the money, which is why it was a good trade.

 

[Safety Blitz]

You're right, it is all about the money, which is why it was a good trade.

I wasn't judging the trade. Just saying it was a money driven deal, not a baseball deal. Winning is not Nutting's top priority. And that's too bad for Pirates fans.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I wasn't judging the trade. Just saying it was a money driven deal, not a baseball deal. Winning is not Nutting's top priority. And that's too bad for Pirates fans.

Niese makes as much as Walker.

It was just 2 teams flipping expendable parts and getting something of value for them instead of nothing. Pirates weren't going to keep Walker past this year, Niese probably wasn't going to have his options picked up by the Mets. Haven't read anywhere that didn't think this was a fair deal for both teams.

It wasn't an anti-Walker thing, this is just what you do with players who are entering their last year of team control and aren't good enough to receive a Qualifying Offer at year-end.

Jon Niese isn't an exciting pitcher, but outside of Pittsburgh Neil Walker isn't an exciting 2B.

 

[upj87]

Neil Walker might be one of the most over-rated Pirates of all time. He really only had one great year.

Nice guy and a good Pittsburgher.

Overrated by who exactly? He is what he is .275 hitter who hits between 15 and 20 home runs and drives in 70... Solid, above average 2b. Don't know of anyone ever claimed he was the second coming of Rogers Hornsby....