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OT: NHL expanding to Atlanta via John Buccigross

HailToPitt725

HailToPitt725

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May 16, 2016
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Anyone see his Tweet earlier today? Thought he was talking about a preseason game at first, but he mentioned Alpharetta (alluding to someone/group building there).

IMO, the NHL Atlanta hate is undeserved. Both the Flames and Thrashers had awful ownership groups that set them up to fail. The league does a much better job at vetting expansion teams and setting them up for success nowadays, and Atlanta is not the same city that it was when the Thrashers left (see Atlanta United). They’re one of the largest cities and markets without a team, makes sense to return there.
 
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One could argue against a team in Atlanta but then the Panthers and Coyotes (in their 4000 seat arena) still exist.

Build a smaller arena (like Winnipegs) in an affluent suburb and they will do fine.

What’s with the Waffle House reference? Could there be a Waffle House Arena?
 
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CaptainMurphy said:
One could argue against a team in Atlanta but then the Panthers and Coyotes (in their 4000 seat arena) still exist.

Build a smaller arena (like Winnipegs) in an affluent suburb and they will do fine.

What’s with the Waffle House reference? Could there be a Waffle House Arena?
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I think the latter’s just him being goofy, but agreed with the other parts. Heck, the Braves are doing great after leaving the city for The Battery.
 
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As someone who knows and works with a lot of people from Atlanta and it’s sports scene, I can say that with the right group NHL would do well there. Provided they have the right ownership, marketing(at least initially), and location/arena size. If they can get those things together, the people of the city will 100% support them.

The bigger question to me is expansion team. I know the $ the league and teams bring in from fees, but I have so many questions and concerns
1.This would be team 33, no other pro league is bigger than 32.
2.Would mean an eventual team 34. That alone makes things questionable for me.
3.Atlanta is an easy location…but where would Team 34 go?
4.Is this not actually an expansion team but maybe the Coyotes considering their situation?
 
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MattP31 said:
As someone who knows and works with a lot of people from Atlanta and it’s sports scene, I can say that with the right group NHL would do well there. Provided they have the right ownership, marketing(at least initially), and location/arena size. If they can get those things together, the people of the city will 100% support them.

The bigger question to me is expansion team. I know the $ the league and teams bring in from fees, but I have so many questions and concerns
1.This would be team 33, no other pro league is bigger than 32.
2.Would mean an eventual team 34. That alone makes things questionable for me.
3.Atlanta is an easy location…but where would Team 34 go?
4.Is this not actually an expansion team but maybe the Coyotes considering their situation?
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Is Quebec City still a front runner? They already have the area built and you know they will fill it.
 
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MattP31 said:
As someone who knows and works with a lot of people from Atlanta and it’s sports scene, I can say that with the right group NHL would do well there. Provided they have the right ownership, marketing(at least initially), and location/arena size. If they can get those things together, the people of the city will 100% support them.

The bigger question to me is expansion team. I know the $ the league and teams bring in from fees, but I have so many questions and concerns
1.This would be team 33, no other pro league is bigger than 32.
2.Would mean an eventual team 34. That alone makes things questionable for me.
3.Atlanta is an easy location…but where would Team 34 go?
4.Is this not actually an expansion team but maybe the Coyotes considering their situation?
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According to Buccigross, Houston would be team 34. I actually recall back in 2015 when the initial expansion talks started that they wanted to expand to 34 and not just 32 (link). It was speculated at the time that a second Toronto team would be a possibility as well, but Houston makes sense for a lot sense for the same reasons that Atlanta does.

As for Quebec City, I think they’ll remain a negotiation tactic until someone finally relocates there. Don’t see them getting expansion team this time around, either.
 
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The NHL was a colossal failure in Atlanta the first time and is a colossal failure in Sunrise, FL (probably because its like umm....not in Miami). That said, MLS has been an enormous success in Atlanta so maybe the NHL can work now.

I do think the NHL needs to do what I think that MLS needs to do. Go to 40 teams. Both leagues are too niche. The NHL needs people in Atlanta, Houston, Kansas City, Indianapolis, etc knowing what hockey is. Same goes for MLS. Take Pgh for example. MLS isnt even on the radar here. Lets say Mark Cuban or the Rooneys or Fenway Sports builds a stadium and gets an MLS team, well all of a sudden, MLS goes from absolutely no presence to a pretty big one.
 
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Sean Miller Fan said:
The NHL was a colossal failure in Atlanta the first time and is a colossal failure in Sunrise, FL (probably because its like umm....not in Miami). That said, MLS has been an enormous success in Atlanta so maybe the NHL can work now.

I do think the NHL needs to do what I think that MLS needs to do. Go to 40 teams. Both leagues are too niche. The NHL needs people in Atlanta, Houston, Kansas City, Indianapolis, etc knowing what hockey is. Same goes for MLS. Take Pgh for example. MLS isnt even on the radar here. Lets say Mark Cuban or the Rooneys or Fenway Sports builds a stadium and gets an MLS team, well all of a sudden, MLS goes from absolutely no presence to a pretty big one.
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I was thinking of the idea of the NHL being a “niche” league and how it can leverage that moving forward. For example, although it seems like they’re going to swing for the big markets that have every other major league, I think it’d be interesting to see what the NHL could do in places like Austin or Hampton Roads. The league has had success in similar places that either have zero pro sports teams or does not yet have an NBA team. Las Vegas, Nashville, and Raleigh (relocation) are good examples of this. They could be options in a potential expansion to 40 teams.
 
TempleBAPittMPA said:
I've said this before, but I don't understand why the NHL doesn't have a team in Milwaukee.
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Back in the day the Blackhawks ownership always blocked it, now it’s doubtful the market could support a fourth major league team, there’s only so much local money to spread around and the Packers dominate the local media more than the Stillers do here.
 
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happjack said:
Back in the day the Blackhawks ownership always blocked it, now it’s doubtful the market could support a fourth major league team, there’s only so much local money to spread around and the Packers dominate the local media more than the Stillers do here.
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Yup, they almost got an expansion franchise over Tampa in the 90s. They built the BMO Harris Arena with hockey in mind.
 
HailToPitt725 said:
I was thinking of the idea of the NHL being a “niche” league and how it can leverage that moving forward. For example, although it seems like they’re going to swing for the big markets that have every other major league, I think it’d be interesting to see what the NHL could do in places like Austin or Hampton Roads. The league has had success in similar places that either have zero pro sports teams or does not yet have an NBA team. Las Vegas, Nashville, and Raleigh (relocation) are good examples of this. They could be options in a potential expansion to 40 teams.
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Austin could work. Hampton Roads is pretty firmly Caps country, at least within the hockey community there.
 
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CaptainMurphy said:
Is Quebec City still a front runner? They already have the area built and you know they will fill it.
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Quebec City has never been a front runner for an expansion team, and it never will be. Or, OK, they could be when the NHL is expanding from like 48 teams to 50, maybe then. But not any time soon.

Quebec City is way too small, is too close to Montreal, and adds almost no new fans to the league. Their only hope is to convince someone else to relocate there, and then jump through enough of the hoops that the NHL would place in front of a move like that for them to eventually relent.
 
What about Salt Lake City, UT? Shared arena with the Jazz. And a natural rival with Vegas.
 
Joe the Panther Fan said:
Quebec City has never been a front runner for an expansion team, and it never will be. Or, OK, they could be when the NHL is expanding from like 48 teams to 50, maybe then. But not any time soon.

Quebec City is way too small, is too close to Montreal, and adds almost no new fans to the league. Their only hope is to convince someone else to relocate there, and then jump through enough of the hoops that the NHL would place in front of a move like that for them to eventually relent.
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I agree with some of your points. But it’s a bigger metro than Winnipeg and is about as far from Montreal as Buffalo is to Pittsburgh (and further apart than Buffalo and Toronto). It’s

As far as adding new fans, I think there is enough of an appetite for hockey in Canada that a city like Quebec City would outperform a lot of larger US markets.
 
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CaptainMurphy said:
I agree with some of your points. But it’s a bigger metro than Winnipeg and is about as far from Montreal as Buffalo is to Pittsburgh (and further apart than Buffalo and Toronto). It’s

As far as adding new fans, I think there is enough of an appetite for hockey in Canada that a city like Quebec City would outperform a lot of larger US markets.
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Well Winnipeg only got a team by getting Atlanta to move there. They weren't ever going to get an expansion team either.

Quebec City would absolutely outperform a lot of larger US markets locally. But other than the people that own the Quebec City team, no one would care about that. The NHL isn't getting any more money from adding a small Canadian market team. The NHL could get more money from adding a large US market. Especially if that team ends us being successful. And that's what an expansion team is all about, from the perspective of the people who make the decisions on that kind of thing.
 
PITTfanSD said:
What about Salt Lake City, UT? Shared arena with the Jazz. And a natural rival with Vegas.
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The thing I’ve wondered with cities such as Portland or Salt Lake City is whether an NHL team could be viable since the only other major pro sport they have is going on at the same time (NBA). Would that affect fan’s ability or willingness to spend more on one versus the other versus both? I’m not sure.
 
It’s a good question HailToPitt725. However, I think the fan bases are very different so I don’t think the wallet competition is really there.
 
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A real factor why the NHL doesn't want to put an expansion team in Canada is tax and providence money. There is no money from the providence for teams, no tax tunnels for the franchise. Quebec will have to offer the owner of a team a 10 year lease free facility to get them to move there. They built a state of the art hockey arena, it is absolutely beautiful. I have a funny feeling Arizona is going to end up there.
 
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JJ COLLINS said:
A real factor why the NHL doesn't want to put an expansion team in Canada is tax and providence money. There is no money from the providence for teams, no tax tunnels for the franchise. Quebec will have to offer the owner of a team a 10 year lease free facility to get them to move there. They built a state of the art hockey arena, it is absolutely beautiful. I have a funny feeling Arizona is going to end up there.
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I think the Florida Panthers could be an option as well. IMO, the league might be more willing to let them leave since they’ve struggled to create a footprint in Miami/South Florida while the state of Florida would still be covered with Tampa Bay. My hunch is that they want to maintain a presence in Arizona if possible, given that the market/state is expected to continue growing in the near term.
 
JJ COLLINS said:
I have a funny feeling Arizona is going to end up there.
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Arizona is Gary Bettman's pet project. The only way that they move is if the arena deal they are working towards completely collapses and they can't get any other deal for a new arena and none of the existing arenas in the area will deal with them because of the way that they like to not pay their bills.

I mean he's letting them play in a 4,000 seat arena for at least a couple years. He wants nothing to do with them moving.
 
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MattP31 said:
As someone who knows and works with a lot of people from Atlanta and it’s sports scene, I can say that with the right group NHL would do well there. Provided they have the right ownership, marketing(at least initially), and location/arena size. If they can get those things together, the people of the city will 100% support them.

The bigger question to me is expansion team. I know the $ the league and teams bring in from fees, but I have so many questions and concerns
1.This would be team 33, no other pro league is bigger than 32.
2.Would mean an eventual team 34. That alone makes things questionable for me.
3.Atlanta is an easy location…but where would Team 34 go?
4.Is this not actually an expansion team but maybe the Coyotes considering their situation?
Click to expand...
I expect all the major sports except football to expand. Owners got killed money wise during Covid and they want catch up pay. The easiest way is to get a big cash input from expansion costs. Now this will mean less revenue yearly but I think most of the non-nfl owners will make that swap
 
Joe the Panther Fan said:
Well Winnipeg only got a team by getting Atlanta to move there. They weren't ever going to get an expansion team either.

Quebec City would absolutely outperform a lot of larger US markets locally. But other than the people that own the Quebec City team, no one would care about that. The NHL isn't getting any more money from adding a small Canadian market team. The NHL could get more money from adding a large US market. Especially if that team ends us being successful. And that's what an expansion team is all about, from the perspective of the people who make the decisions on that kind of thing.
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A valid point for sure.

I guess I would just like to see the NHL get back to roots and add another Canadian city or two as opposed to further southern expansion. But I do realize it all comes down to $$$.
 
The NHL needs to look to their strategy of no NBA teams in markets. This is why KC should be considered. Houston I can see, because of the market size. Atlanta should be a no because it failed there twice. Salt Lake City is too small of a market to support both NBA and NHL. As much as I would personally love to see Quebec City get a team, it does nothing for the NHL as far as American TV markets.
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
The NHL needs to look to their strategy of no NBA teams in markets. This is why KC should be considered. Houston I can see, because of the market size. Atlanta should be a no because it failed there twice. Salt Lake City is too small of a market to support both NBA and NHL. As much as I would personally love to see Quebec City get a team, it does nothing for the NHL as far as American TV markets.
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I think Kansas City would be ready for another team in about ten years. The ice hockey community is steadily growing and by then, the population and business scene should be able to support a third major sports team.
 
HailToPitt725 said:
I don’t know. The way they’ve embraced the MLS has been pretty cool. I think there’s a way to get them in on hockey in a similar way.
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I used to agree with Atl being a horrible sports town and thought MLS was insane to put a team there ESPECIALLY in a 70K seat NFL stadium. I totally thought they'd be drawing 5K fans in that cavernous stadiums. Instead their attendance consistently ranks near the top in the world. Its one of the most amazing this I've really ever seen.
 
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Sean Miller Fan said:
I used to agree with Atl being a horrible sports town and thought MLS was insane to put a team there ESPECIALLY in a 70K seat NFL stadium. I totally thought they'd be drawing 5K fans in that cavernous stadiums. Instead their attendance consistently ranks near the top in the world. Its one of the most amazing this I've really ever seen.
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I’m a huge junkie when it comes to the expansion stuff, and all I’ve read is that Atlanta is much different now than what it was when the Thrashers left. Who knows, it might just work.
 
HailToPitt725 said:
I’m a huge junkie when it comes to the expansion stuff, and all I’ve read is that Atlanta is much different now than what it was when the Thrashers left. Who knows, it might just work.
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The Braves were smart to move out and develop their own center, even if it was questioned at the time. NHL can do the same thing. Alpharetta makes sense as you’d be drawing from the massive, and largely affluent, northern suburbs.
 
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CaptainMurphy said:
The Braves were smart to move out and develop their own center, even if it was questioned at the time. NHL can do the same thing. Alpharetta makes sense as you’d be drawing from the massive, and largely affluent, northern suburbs.
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The problem with Atlanta is similar to Miami. It is just such a transient city. So when the Pens, the NY teams, Flyers, Boston come to town, they will draw well. Winnipeg? Not so much.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
The problem with Atlanta is similar to Miami. It is just such a transient city. So when the Pens, the NY teams, Flyers, Boston come to town, they will draw well. Winnipeg? Not so much.
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To a degree yes. But not as much as Miami. The problem for the Panthers is location within the metro and that Miami just doesn’t care about hockey. And their arena is too big at almost 20K seats. Needs to be 15-17K like the Jets, Devils, and Islanders arenas.
 
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The owners are desperate for money while watering down the product. The expansion fees are very high now and they are basically giving these teams a free ticket to the playoffs in a season or two.
34 teams in the NHL ? That's ridiculous. Atlanta doesn't deserve a team again.
 
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BreakingPitt said:
The owners are desperate for money
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I think this is what it’s coming down to. My theory is that they want a short-term cash infusion ($1.6B/32) to offset any potential losses with the ongoing RSN situation.

Edit: and while they originally discussed 34 teams back in 2015, I think the end game is ultimately 36 teams. Allows for two more US markets (e.g., KC, Milwaukee, Portland, wildcard) and would create balanced alignment with each conference having three six-team divisions.
 
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CaptainMurphy said:
To a degree yes. But not as much as Miami. The problem for the Panthers is location within the metro and that Miami just doesn’t care about hockey. And their arena is too big at almost 20K seats. Needs to be 15-17K like the Jets, Devils, and Islanders arenas.
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I don’t think they’ll ever move back into Miami city limits, but I think Ft. Lauderdale would be a much better location for them. The area around their arena is pretty dead and moving east would be a big jolt for that franchise.
 
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