OT: Penguins

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Well the trade deadline has come and gone, and the team has made some interesting moves. The team is now also healthy. Honestly, I like the moves. Loved the Winnick trade. (Loved the Perron trade also). I am tired of waiting for Simon Despres to become a force, he looks like he will be a decent 5/6 defenseman I this league, yeah he was a 1st rd pick, but he was at the bottom of the round. Ben Lovejoy is what he is, but what is is a more dependable defenseman than Depres, and also a right handed shot. Bortuzzo for Cole? Could be a wash, but I like Cole, a bit more physical.

I think Rutherford has retooled this team into being a more "playoff ready" team. More balanced, deeper lines, I mean compare a 4th line of Lapierre, Bennett and Spaling with Adams/Goc/Glass or a 3rd line of Sutter, Winnick and Downie with Sutter/Stempniak/Gibbons, it is no contest. The Pens now can roll out 4 lines. 4 decent to really good lines. And guys like Perron, Comeau and especially Hornquist definitely are less perimeter players than previous forwards and will get those dirty goals.

Like this team, got bigger, grittier, tougher. BUT..............................

If Sidney Crosby is not playing like Sidney Crosby, if Geno Malkin is not playing like Geno Malkin, if Marc Andre Fleury is not playing like regular season Marc Andre Fleury and Kris Letang is not playing like Kris Letang, none of this matters. That shouldn't be hard. You aren't asking Steve Downie or Nick Spaling to be big time scorers. You aren't asking anyone to do more than they can. But you are asking the core stars to be those stars they are supposed to be. But honestly, the last 5 years in the playoffs they haven't been.

The supporting cast is there. 87, 71, 58 and 29 need to play to their potential. They don't need to be anything more than they are....but they can't come up small again or none of this matters. And if they do.........I think it is time to trade one of 87 or 71 because it just ain't working.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I definitely agree that the GLARING lack of depth upfront and on the backend has been a major problem for the Penguins in recent seasons. That is why, in my view, Ray Shero deserved to be fired before Dan Bylsma. Shero did an incredibly poor job here, IMHO. He robbed us of our top prospects and failed to develop what we had. He overdrafted at some positions and ignored others.

That said, the jury is still very much out on whether or not the supporting cast is there now. I do think on paper they look deeper, stronger and more playoff ready. However, only time will tell on that front.

I also agree that our best players need to play extremely well for the Pens to win the Cup. However, I think the lack of depth throughout the lineup upfront and on the backend is primarily why they lost over the last few seasons, not because of how the stars played.

That is not to say that I think our stars have always played well. Clearly, they have played poorly in spots. However, to win a Cup, you need to be able to have a star have a bad series or even two bad series and the team is good enough to advance anyway. I have seen Kane and Toews go scoreless for long stretches of playoff series but the Blackhawks kept winning because their "depth players" like Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Versteeg, Oduya, etc. played well in their stead. One our top guns have gone cold, there has been nobody there to pick up the slack. Hopefully this year things will be different but as I said, only time will tell.

The Ian Cole trade, I think, was to bring in someone to deal with someone like Ovechkin. They needed to bring in a physical defenseman who can play in the top four and not be a lot of fun to play against. The Ben Lovejoy trade is probably just the fact that he is a right-handed shot who is also a bottom pairing defenseman, just like the guy he was traded for.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
I definitely agree that the GLARING lack of depth upfront and on the backend has been a major problem for the Penguins in recent seasons. That is why, in my view, Ray Shero deserved to be fired before Dan Bylsma. Shero did an incredibly poor job here, IMHO. He robbed us of our top prospects and failed to develop what we had. He overdrafted at some positions and ignored others.

That said, the jury is still very much out on whether or not the supporting cast is there now. I do think on paper they look deeper, stronger and more playoff ready. However, only time will tell on that front.

I also agree that our best players need to play extremely well for the Pens to win the Cup. However, I think the lack of depth throughout the lineup upfront and on the backend is primarily why they lost over the last few seasons, not because of how the stars played.

That is not to say that I think our stars have always played well. Clearly, they have played poorly in spots. However, to win a Cup, you need to be able to have a star have a bad series or even two bad series and the team is good enough to advance anyway. I have seen Kane and Toews go scoreless for long stretches of playoff series but the Blackhawks kept winning because their "depth players" like Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, Versteeg, Oduya, etc. played well in their stead. One our top guns have gone cold, there has been nobody there to pick up the slack. Hopefully this year things will be different but as I said, only time will tell.

The Ian Cole trade, I think, was to bring in someone to deal with someone like Ovechkin. They needed to bring in a physical defenseman who can play in the top four and not be a lot of fun to play against. The Ben Lovejoy trade is probably just the fact that he is a right-handed shot who is also a bottom pairing defenseman, just like the guy he was traded for.

The difference in the bottom 6 forwards at present versus last year is 180 degrees. The 3rd and 4th lines are filled with legit NHL players, who can play "heavy" but also put the puck in the net. And kill penalties. I mean the one year rebuilding of this is amazing if you ask me.

I love people talking about giving up on a 1st rounder like Despres, forgetting that Cole was also a 1st rounder, so......I'd take Cole over Bortuzzo. I'd take Lovejoy over Despres right now, maybe not in a couple of years, but right now.

But again, 87 is got to be a focal point and go to the dirty areas and not just be a perimeter player, MAF can't let in a soft goal a game, Letang can't turn the puck over and Geno got to shoot the puck more........unlike the past few post seasons.

I am confident that 71 and 58 will be fine.....to me the questions are 29 and as unbelievable as this sounds, 87.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

From where I sit, Pittsburgh's biggest problem is on its back end. That has been its biggest problem for a number of years now and it remains its biggest problem going into this postseason.

We have a number of puck moving defensemen who are not physical in their own but who do not add any offensive punch at the other end. You could get away with that back in 2009 whenever the NHL was closely adhering to its obstruction rules and the game was much faster. However, in 2015 the game is officiated very, very differently. Those obstruction rules that were so closely enforced have gone by the wayside. We are back to a very slow, heavy game. Shero and Bylsma we're slow to recognize/accept that reality which is why they are no longer with this team.

Nowadays, it is very difficult to win in the playoffs with finesse D who are no threat on the offensive side of the puck. If you are not a hammer, you had better be a sword. Instead, we have a number of guys with great sticks and who are disruptive in that way but were not difficult to play against. Do you think anyone is afraid to play against Paul Martin? Christian Erhoff? Rob Scuderi? Ben Lovejoy?

Nope.

All of those guys are good hockey players but all of them are finesse, puck moving defensemen with very little offensive punch at this stage in their respective careers.

I believe that a major problem Pittsburgh has had is that teams collapse down on the forwards and leave the points wide open. Unfortunately, there is nobody back there who can make teams pay for overcommitting so flagrantly. That means, if we don't score off the rush, we generally do not score. I hate to say this but I don't see anything about this roster that is dramatically different than the past few rosters - as it pertains to defensemen, which I think is the weakest area on the team and probably the biggest reason for their many premature exits from the playoffs.

Hopefully, they are so nasty upfront and can get enough goals from guys like Perron and Hornqvist - as well as the aforementioned superstars - that it mitigates that weakness, but I have my doubts.

In the off-season Pittsburgh is going to have the opportunity to reshape it's defense and I think they would be wise to do that. You can have Paul Martin or Christian Erhoff but you can't have two of the exact same type of player, which they basically are at the stage in their respective careers.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Incidentally, the phenomenon of teams collapsing completely down on the forwards is a major reason why I believe that Derrick Poulliot will play a major role in this team's postseason success. It is also why I think people suggesting that we trade him are bat shit crazy. Not quite as looney as the maniacs that want/wanted to trade Kris Letang but still very, very goofy hockey fans who have no earthly idea what the hell they are even watching right before their eyes.

Poulliot is not yet ready to become a top four D for Pittsburgh - he is not hard or strong enough in his own end. However, I would not be at all surprised if he plays more frequently and in more critical situations than anyone currently imagines. He is one of the few guys we have on D who can consistently get the puck to the net from the point, where guys like Hornqvist and Kunitz can bang in rebounds. That will become a major asset whenever teams completely collapse down on the forwards, vacating the points as has happened several times in recent playoffs runs.


H2P!

This post was edited on 3/2 8:46 PM by Dr. von Yinzer

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Letang is going to turn over the puck. Fleury is going to let in some soft goals. Geno is going to lose his composure and Crosby is going to be kept to the outside from time to time. All of those things are DEFINITELY going to happen to Pittsburgh in the playoffs.

Hopefully, the difference will be that when all of those things happen, and they absolutely will happen, they all don't happen at the same time; and that when they do happen, other players are there to pick up the slack. That is what has been missing. You don't think Chicago'a stars go cold for long stretches? Of course they do - every single year. You don't think the Kings' stars go cold for very long stretches? They do too. The difference is that when Kopitar goes cold, Justin Williams is there to pick up the slack. On the rare occasion when Drew Doughty doesn't play well, Alec Martinez does.

To me, that is what has been missing from Pittsburgh. Even the best players can't be all world every night or even every series. However, there have to be those Randy Gillen's or Troy Loney's who come through in clutch moments. We haven't had that at all in recent seasons. Too much of our scoring is based on too few players and that is a recipe for trouble. Other teams have access to tape as well and if they know that if you shut down 87 and 71, you win, they will do whatever they have to do to shut down 87 and 71.

Incidentally, that exact same problem is probably what will doom Washington. Do you really think people are going to just sit there and let Ovechkin fire bomb after bomb from the top of the circle? Of course they're not going to allow that. They will sell out to stop him and they will force guys like Backstrom, Brower and Chimera to beat them. It will be interesting to see if those guys are up to the task. I have my doubts on that front.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I think the Rangers are the most well-built team in the Eastern Conference. They are deep on offense and on defense and they have phenomenal goaltending. They are not invincible by any means, but when I look at all of the rosters of all the teams in the East, New York stands out more than the others. Montreal also looks exceptionally well put together. If I had to guess, that will likely be the Eastern Conference Final matchup.

However, it is still pretty wide-open with the Lightning, Islanders, Red Wings, Bruins, Penguins, and Capitals also all having a shot to make it out - if they catch a break or two along the way. However, from where I sit, New York and Montreal look to be slightly stronger teams than the other likely playoff qualifiers. Those two teams also happen to possess the two best goaltenders in the conference.

 

[goalieman]

I think both you guys, "recruits" and "DVY" make good points.

You have to have four lines that can play to win in the playoffs ..... Rutherford has added depth to the forwards/centers this season ...... he has really reshaped all the lines ...... 3 of 6 skaters on the 1st two lines are new (Hornqvist, Perron, and Comeau) and these players can get to the net and work down low which is important in scoring goals during the playoffs ..... this will also open space for 87 and 71 ...... the 3rd and 4th lines have been upgraded ..... Sutter, Winnik, Downie is a nice two way 3rd line and Lapierre, Spaling, Bennett/Adams is an appealing 4th line ..... whether the 4 lines are good enough to win it all remains to be seen but IMO are an upgrade from last season.

The trades today for Cole and Lovejoy were an attempt to add better all-around defensemen and add experience ..... we lost some physical play that Bortuzzo and Depres provide..... Depres may be a very good defenseman in the future but not good enough now to win a Stanley Cup IMO ..... he is physical and a decent skater but lacks "hands"/stickhandling in tight spots so is susceptible to turnovers when forechecked hard in his own end which is a disaster in the playoffs ..... he may be a star in the future but we needed a better defenseman in our end now...... Cole is a better, more experienced all-around defenseman then Bortuzzo at present and is only a year older.... I think our defense by the time of the playoffs will be stronger now then before the trades.... we will see.

Don't underestimate Fleury .... he has improved his game and is having an excellent year and is one of the top goalies so far this season ...... he was good in the playoffs last year and I see no reason why he won't be good this year ...... he has improved his goalie movement while down and it has helped him a great deal .... we can win a Stanley Cup with MAF.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
From where I sit, Pittsburgh's biggest problem is on its back end. That has been its biggest problem for a number of years now and it remains its biggest problem going into this postseason.

We have a number of puck moving defensemen who are not physical in their own but who do not add any offensive punch at the other end. You could get away with that back in 2009 whenever the NHL was closely adhering to its obstruction rules and the game was much faster. However, in 2015 the game is officiated very, very differently. Those obstruction rules that were so closely enforced have gone by the wayside. We are back to a very slow, heavy game. Shero and Bylsma we're slow to recognize/accept that reality which is why they are no longer with this team.

Nowadays, it is very difficult to win in the playoffs with finesse D who are no threat on the offensive side of the puck. If you are not a hammer, you had better be a sword. Instead, we have a number of guys with great sticks and who are disruptive in that way but were not difficult to play against. Do you think anyone is afraid to play against Paul Martin? Christian Erhoff? Rob Scuderi? Ben Lovejoy?

Nope.

All of those guys are good hockey players but all of them are finesse, puck moving defensemen with very little offensive punch at this stage in their respective careers.

I believe that a major problem Pittsburgh has had is that teams collapse down on the forwards and leave the points wide open. Unfortunately, there is nobody back there who can make teams pay for overcommitting so flagrantly. That means, if we don't score off the rush, we generally do not score. I hate to say this but I don't see anything about this roster that is dramatically different than the past few rosters - as it pertains to defensemen, which I think is the weakest area on the team and probably the biggest reason for their many premature exits from the playoffs.

Hopefully, they are so nasty upfront and can get enough goals from guys like Perron and Hornqvist - as well as the aforementioned superstars - that it mitigates that weakness, but I have my doubts.

In the off-season Pittsburgh is going to have the opportunity to reshape it's defense and I think they would be wise to do that. You can have Paul Martin or Christian Erhoff but you can't have two of the exact same type of player, which they basically are at the stage in their respective careers.

Agree that this version of the NHL (dead ball version) where referees maniacally enforce offsides and penalties such as delay of the game when the puck goes over the glass, but completely allow obstruction, especially against the league's skilled players, to go on and on and on without penalty, the Pens have been poorly constructed.

Hence, getting forwards to go into the dirty areas and get those non pretty goals where only Kunitz would do that in the past. And he would just be beat up by the time playoff time came and became less effective.

I find the local reaction to yesterday's trades funny. People are bemoaning that "the Pens lack physicality and they gave up their two most physical defensemen in Bortuzzo and Despres." Yeah, that is like saying the Pirates lack punch at 1B and gave up Ike Davis and Gaby Sanchez. Despres and Bortuzzo were hardly what I would call deterrents as physical defensemen, Despres repeatedly got trucked in recent games and really has never showed any of that offensive prowess. Despres is 23, but I can tell Pens fans here is his upside....Ryan Whitney. Lovejoy at least is more defensively sound and moves the puck much better.

Cole is somewhat of a wash to me with these guys, and maybe the change of scenery will do him well, but he is big and can be physical. But as we seen with the LA Kings and Boston and the Rangers, team's physicality no longer comes from the back end so much as it does the forwards. I love how the Pens have reconstructed this group. I would feel much better however in seeing maybe the next game against Wings or say tomorrow against Colorado if we see Lapierre start getting in the face of the opposition's better forwards.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
Letang is going to turn over the puck. Fleury is going to let in some soft goals. Geno is going to lose his composure and Crosby is going to be kept to the outside from time to time. All of those things are DEFINITELY going to happen to Pittsburgh in the playoffs.

Hopefully, the difference will be that when all of those things happen, and they absolutely will happen, they all don't happen at the same time; and that when they do happen, other players are there to pick up the slack. That is what has been missing. You don't think Chicago'a stars go cold for long stretches? Of course they do - every single year. You don't think the Kings' stars go cold for very long stretches? They do too. The difference is that when Kopitar goes cold, Justin Williams is there to pick up the slack. On the rare occasion when Drew Doughty doesn't play well, Alec Martinez does.

To me, that is what has been missing from Pittsburgh. Even the best players can't be all world every night or even every series. However, there have to be those Randy Gillen's or Troy Loney's who come through in clutch moments. We haven't had that at all in recent seasons. Too much of our scoring is based on too few players and that is a recipe for trouble. Other teams have access to tape as well and if they know that if you shut down 87 and 71, you win, they will do whatever they have to do to shut down 87 and 71.

Incidentally, that exact same problem is probably what will doom Washington. Do you really think people are going to just sit there and let Ovechkin fire bomb after bomb from the top of the circle? Of course they're not going to allow that. They will sell out to stop him and they will force guys like Backstrom, Brower and Chimera to beat them. It will be interesting to see if those guys are up to the task. I have my doubts on that front.

On your first paragraph, of course they will. But what can't happen is an entire series of a Sid no show. Or MAF reprising his 2013 Isles debacle or 2012 Flyers debacle.

On the other notes, yeah agree. Last game showed what can happen. Winnick made a great pass to Downie who buried the shot (incidentally Downie's skill is seriously under valued) and the 4th line not just kept the puck in the opposition's end, but were getting multiple scoring chances (didn't seem to miss Adams a bit, did they?) and Bennett gives that line some versatility.

We shall see. But my point is, if 87, 71, 29 and 58 are not what they are, then this team isn't going anywhere. And that is not earth shattering, the same applies to the Hawks and their stars, the Kings and their stars, if Stamkos and Johnson aren't scoring for TB, their done, ditto for Tavares and the Isles, or if King Henrik is ordinary, the problem is....the Pens core stars have been anything but come the last few post seasons.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by goalieman:
I think both you guys, "recruits" and "DVY" make good points.

You have to have four lines that can play to win in the playoffs ..... Rutherford has added depth to the forwards/centers this season ...... he has really reshaped all the lines ...... 3 of 6 skaters on the 1st two lines are new (Hornqvist, Perron, and Comeau) and these players can get to the net and work down low which is important in scoring goals during the playoffs ..... this will also open space for 87 and 71 ...... the 3rd and 4th lines have been upgraded ..... Sutter, Winnik, Downie is a nice two way 3rd line and Lapierre, Spaling, Bennett/Adams is an appealing 4th line ..... whether the 4 lines are good enough to win it all remains to be seen but IMO are an upgrade from last season.

The trades today for Cole and Lovejoy were an attempt to add better all-around defensemen and add experience ..... we lost some physical play that Bortuzzo and Depres provide..... Depres may be a very good defenseman in the future but not good enough now to win a Stanley Cup IMO ..... he is physical and a decent skater but lacks "hands"/stickhandling in tight spots so is susceptible to turnovers when forechecked hard in his own end which is a disaster in the playoffs ..... he may be a star in the future but we needed a better defenseman in our end now...... Cole is a better, more experienced all-around defenseman then Bortuzzo at present and is only a year older.... I think our defense by the time of the playoffs will be stronger now then before the trades.... we will see.

Don't underestimate Fleury .... he has improved his game and is having an excellent year and is one of the top goalies so far this season ...... he was good in the playoffs last year and I see no reason why he won't be good this year ...... he has improved his goalie movement while down and it has helped him a great deal .... we can win a Stanley Cup with MAF.

Agree Goalieman. MAF is playing the best I have ever seen him play. Here is MAF's save percentage in the post season every year since 2008:

2008: A scintillating 0.933, which lead the playoffs, the avg that post season was 0.909. The Pens made the SCF's.
2009: A rather pedestrian 0.908, which the avg that post season was 0.914. MAF was actually 12th among the 16 regular goalies....but no worries.....in the finals he was brilliant in games 6 and 7 and hoisted the cup.
2010: MAF was not good, an 0.891 save percentage was next to last amongst regulars, the average was 0.908, far below the line and Pens bounced in Rd 2.
2011: Again, next to last amongst reg goalies with an 0.899 save percentage, the Pens bounced out of Rd 1 as they blew a 3-1 lead to the Bolts. In the Pens defense, they also did not have Sid and Geno...still......the goalie didn't steal a game when needed.
2012: UGH. 0.834 save percentage which was dead last, and 50 points lower than the next guy. Pens bounced by the Flyers, The local media went into full blow excuse mode for him, but it was the single worst performance by a goaltender as I have ever seen.
2013: This was the telling year. Fleury was next to last again in save % at 0.883, only the Isles Nabakov was worse (and the Pens beat them). But MAF was replaced by Tomas Vokoun and Vokoun had a 0.933 save percentage was amazingly was only 4th. So all those excuses about bad defense, etc...rang hollow as Vokoun got it done, MAF didn't. Also, what has happened during this time, is save percentages have crept up where now "average" is around 0.915!
2014: MAF was good, 0.915 save percentage which was 6th amongst regulars, the problem was, Lundquist was outstanding. But the Ranger series was no way on MAF, if 87 or 71 even where half of themselves, the Pens beat them.

So....MAF have been decidedly below the line in the post season until last year. Even in the Cup Year, he was great when it counted, but overall pedestrian. In 2010-2013, he was just god awful and in 2 of those years THE REASON for the Pens to not extend their season at least one series.

Like I said, 2013 told it all. People have blamed the defense, but Vokoun proved that you still can block the puck from going into the net, which is the goalie's primary job regardless of the defense.

 

[wbrpanther]

The Pens have gotten healthy at the right time. These 3 moves aren't earth shaking but are tweaks to the roster that may pay big dividends.

It will be interesting to see if the Pens start playing at a much higher level as the playoffs approach starting with this west coast swing.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

We are all basically on the same page.

 

[vegasgreed]

87 & 71 haven't made it past the 2nd round since 2009. Will be interesting to see what this year brings.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by vegasgreed:
87 & 71 haven't made it past the 2nd round since 2009. Will be interesting to see what this year brings.

Posted from Rivals Mobile

Of course that flameout against the Bruins 2 years ago may be forgettable, but it was in the Conference Finals (3rd Rd).

 

[geeman2001]

After the past few years have seen them get shut down in the playoffs, plus given continued, baffling struggle on the PP this season ... and toss in being largely dominated by the NY teams this season ... I have next to zero expectations for the playoffs this year.

Which I hope is actually a good thing, maybe most others will share the same down to earth expectations,and result in reduced pressure. Maybe if these guys finally go in without the intense assumotion they should waltz to the finals, they won't press (plus maybe the opponent won't be as hyped to play them), Maybe if they can relax a little, that supposed talent advantage can actually come through.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by geeman2001:
After the past few years have seen them get shut down in the playoffs, plus given continued, baffling struggle on the PP this season ... and toss in being largely dominated by the NY teams this season ... I have next to zero expectations for the playoffs this year.

Which I hope is actually a good thing, maybe most others will share the same down to earth expectations,and result in reduced pressure. Maybe if these guys finally go in without the intense assumotion they should waltz to the finals, they won't press (plus maybe the opponent won't be as hyped to play them), Maybe if they can relax a little, that supposed talent advantage can actually come through.

Maybe that is a good thing. Look, I have seen this franchise just cruise, I mean cruise into the playoffs looking unbeatable. 2013 was one of those. 1993 was another, hell they set a win streak record. 1996 they looked unbeatable. 2010 even last year. I also saw them struggle in 2009. I saw them struggle to make it in 1992. In 1991 they looked nothing like a Cup team in February.

Come playoff time, it is about putting it together and getting on a roll. We swept Boston in 2013 in the regular season, even at the deadline we beat them for Iginla. They swept us out of the playoffs.

So who knows.....

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

You need that shot from the point coming in the second wave on a rush and as a pure point shot on the PP or when cycling the puck at even strength. We have not had that since the departure of Gonchar back in 2010 and that has been a KILLER for this team that almost nobody acknowledges. Every other contender gets loads and loads of points from their blueline but we do not and it bites us in the arse time and again.

Letang is a helluva player and EASILY the most underrated player on this team. However, he's more of a drive the net guy. I am talking about someone like Jason Garrison who has a bomb and can consistently get the puck on the net. If we had just one of those guys, our offense would explode, IMHO - especially on the PP.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

This is what I'm talking about. Who does this for us now? As a follow up, why would anyone cover the point when there is nobody back there to fear?

Crosby and Malkin aren't choking, they've been choked.

http://video.penguins.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=79071

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
You need that shot from the point coming in the second wave on a rush and as a pure point shot on the PP or when cycling the puck at even strength. We have not had that since the departure of Gonchar back in 2010 and that has been a KILLER for this team that almost nobody acknowledges. Every other contender gets loads and loads of points from their blueline but we do not and it bites us in the arse time and again.

Letang is a helluva player and EASILY the most underrated player on this team. However, he's more of a drive the net guy. I am talking about someone like Jason Garrison who has a bomb and can consistently get the puck on the net. If we had just one of those guys, our offense would explode, IMHO - especially on the PP.

Sometimes I think the Pens players from the point think the goal is to get your shot block and aim for the other teams defenders. It wouldn't be half as bad if they miss the net, because there is still the option for deflections and bounces, but they (Letang) never seem to get shots through.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

That is absolutely true and nobody is more guilty of that than number 58. I think Kris Letang is a marvelous player. Honestly, I would rank him among the top 5-10 defensemen in the entire NHL. That is some pretty heady company when you stop to think about it. Also, I am convinced that he is a better player than several recent Norris Trophy winners. When I think of the Penguins' top dogs, I don't see a "big two", I see a "big three." Also, Fleury can continue to play this well, perhaps I would even consider it a "four-headed monster," as it were.

However, getting his shots through and on net has always been a struggle for Letang and it continues to be a struggle. I suspect it always will be a challenge for that kid. That makes it even more absurd that our former GM never addressed that issue. Letting Gonchar walk was an enormous miscalculation on Shero's part. Not replacing him with a younger point producer from the back end was nothing less than an egregious mistake.

I am not going to hold Jim Rutherford's feet to the fire for failing to solve that problem in such a short period of time. He has clearly done an excellent job with this roster which, I agree, looks to be deeper, more experienced, and more difficult to play against than any Pens team has since we last captured the Stanley Cup.

Also, Derrick Pouliot should solve a lot of these issues as he continues to develop. His hockey sense is off the charts - he rarely makes a bad pinch and he reads the play exceptionally well. He is also a very smooth skater and very poised with the puck. I wish he was a step faster but I think he is going to be an outstanding NHL offensive defenseman perhaps as early as next spring.

However, when I think of this spring, I cringe at our offensive ineptitude from the blueline. I can't help but think that is likely going to cost us big time - just does it so often has in recent years - at some point during the postseason. I hope like hell I am wrong but I do not believe I am.

 

[goalieman]

By the way, I don't think it is a coincidence that Fleury's improvement has come about since goalie coach Mike Bales arrived .... Bales seems to have helped Fleury significantly.

 

[goalieman]

Originally posted by wbrpanther:
The Pens have gotten healthy at the right time. These 3 moves aren't earth shaking but are tweaks to the roster that may pay big dividends.

It will be interesting to see if the Pens start playing at a much higher level as the playoffs approach starting with this west coast swing.

Agree wbrpanther, we are getting healthy at the right time and hopefully there are enough games left in the regular season for the new players to assimilate, integrate, and prosper with the rest of the team prior to the playoffs. Hopefully the Pens will be playing their best hockey during the playoffs.

This post was edited on 3/3 8:18 PM by goalieman

 

[goalieman]

Originally posted by vegasgreed:
87 & 71 haven't made it past the 2nd round since 2009. Will be interesting to see what this year brings.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Hopefully, the fun is ready to start.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
This is what I'm talking about. Who does this for us now? As a follow up, why would anyone cover the point when there is nobody back there to fear?

Crosby and Malkin aren't choking, they've been choked.

http://video.penguins.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=79071

They have choked. Sorry. No ands, ifs and buts about it. Sure, different league now where they are almost to the point of being anti star in the application of rules.

But if you are the best players in the world, you have to play better. There job is to create offense. And score. Somehow. We need to stop ,making excuses and acting like it is everyone elses fault.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
That is absolutely true and nobody is more guilty of that than number 58. I think Kris Letang is a marvelous player. Honestly, I would rank him among the top 5-10 defensemen in the entire NHL. That is some pretty heady company when you stop to think about it. Also, I am convinced that he is a better player than several recent Norris Trophy winners. When I think of the Penguins' top dogs, I don't see a "big two", I see a "big three." Also, Fleury can continue to play this well, perhaps I would even consider it a "four-headed monster," as it were.

However, getting his shots through and on net has always been a struggle for Letang and it continues to be a struggle. I suspect it always will be a challenge for that kid. That makes it even more absurd that our former GM never addressed that issue. Letting Gonchar walk was an enormous miscalculation on Shero's part. Not replacing him with a younger point producer from the back end was nothing less than an egregious mistake.

I am not going to hold Jim Rutherford's feet to the fire for failing to solve that problem in such a short period of time. He has clearly done an excellent job with this roster which, I agree, looks to be deeper, more experienced, and more difficult to play against than any Pens team has since we last captured the Stanley Cup.

Also, Derrick Pouliot should solve a lot of these issues as he continues to develop. His hockey sense is off the charts - he rarely makes a bad pinch and he reads the play exceptionally well. He is also a very smooth skater and very poised with the puck. I wish he was a step faster but I think he is going to be an outstanding NHL offensive defenseman perhaps as early as next spring.

However, when I think of this spring, I cringe at our offensive ineptitude from the blueline. I can't help but think that is likely going to cost us big time - just does it so often has in recent years - at some point during the postseason. I hope like hell I am wrong but I do not believe I am.

No doubt Kristopher Letang (say that in your best Pierre McGuire voice) is one of the I'll go 5 best dmen in the league now. He has really stepped up his game. Pouliot will be a star, and I laugh at all the people worrying about Despres, forgetting that Olli Matta returns next year.

 

[goalieman]

Originally posted by recruitsreadtheseboards:

No doubt Kristopher Letang (say that in your best Pierre McGuire voice) is one of the I'll go 5 best dmen in the league now. He has really stepped up his game. Pouliot will be a star, and I laugh at all the people worrying about Despres, forgetting that Olli Matta returns next year.

Pouliot is 21 and Maatta 20 ....... both have star potential

Harrington is 21 and Dumoulin 23 ..... both have potential to be good to very good.

Letang is 27 and an all-star.

Cole is 26 and hopefully will do well with the Pens.

We have a nice nucleus of young defensemen.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I guess you're right. I was just looking at the statistics and Crosby does have just 81 points in 93 career playoff games. That is less than a point per playoff game. If you want to be seen as a great player performer like, say, Jonathan Toews, you have to produce when the money is on the table like he has, making him the greatest leader in hockey.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
I guess you're right. I was just looking at the statistics and Crosby does have just 81 points in 93 career playoff games. That is less than a point per playoff game. If you want to be seen as a great player performer like, say, Jonathan Toews, you have to produce when the money is on the table like he has, making him the greatest leader in hockey.

Oops, my bad. I just double-checked and apparently those are in fact Toews' career playoff numbers. Crosby has 114 points in 95 career playoff games.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Evgeni Malkin: 111 points in 96 career playoff games
Patrick Kane: 91 points in 93 career playoff games
Anze Kopitar: 60 points in 70 career playoff games
Dustin Brown: 45 points in 76 career playoff games
Alexandre Ovechkin: 61 points in 58 career playoff games
Steven Stamkos: 17 points in 22 career playoff games
Martin St. Louis: 83 points in 88 career playoff games
Patrice Bergeron: 66 points in 95 career playoff games

*Source: hockey-reference.com

It is a false narrative that too many people have lazily fallen back on. Statistical data does not support that conclusion. The reason why all those other guys don't get anywhere near the grief that Crosby and Malkin get, even though they have all posted significantly worst numbers than both Crosby and Malkin, is because the teams around many of those guys have been better than Pittsburgh's supporting cast and they win even when their stars are not producing at elite levels. So when Marian Hossa or Duncan Keith scores a huge goal and the Hawks win a series, somehow Jonathan Toews gets credit for that for providing incredible (and intangible) "leadership." Similarly, when Jerome Iginla or Chris Kunitz - or the entire defensive corps - fails to score and Pittsburgh loses, that is on Crosby and Malkin for their lack of production and leadership. It's all a bunch of horseshit.

Sid and Geno are quite literally the least of our worries.

This post was edited on 3/3 10:45 PM by Dr. von Yinzer

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
Evgeni Malkin: 111 points in 96 career playoff games
Patrick Kane: 91 points in 93 career playoff games
Anze Kopitar: 60 points in 70 career playoff games
Dustin Brown: 45 points in 76 career playoff games
Alexandre Ovechkin: 61 points in 58 career playoff games
Steven Stamkos: 17 points in 22 career playoff games
Martin St. Louis: 83 points in 88 career playoff games
Patrice Bergeron: 66 points in 95 career playoff games

*Source: hockey-reference.com

It is a false narrative that too many people have lazily fallen back on. Statistical data does not support that conclusion. The reason why all those other guys don't get anywhere near the grief that Crosby and Malkin get, even though they have all posted significantly worst numbers than both Crosby and Malkin, is because the teams around many of those guys have been better than Pittsburgh's supporting cast and they win even when their stars are not producing at elite levels. So when Marian Hossa or Duncan Keith scores a huge goal and the Hawks win a series, somehow Jonathan Toews gets credit for that for providing incredible (and intangible) "leadership." Similarly, when Jerome Iginla or Chris Kunitz - or the entire defensive corps - fails to score and Pittsburgh loses, that is on Crosby and Malkin for their lack of production and leadership. It's all a bunch of horseshit.

Sid and Geno are quite literally the least of our worries.

This post was edited on 3/3 10:45 PM by Dr. von Yinzer

No. Aside from Fleury they are the most of our worries. Look, I already looked at those stats, everyone has. And if you look at those, especially Sid's, you will fine most of those points confined to early rounds against say Ottawa, the Isles, and the frenetic Flyers series where everyone scored. In series where the Pens got bounced, Sid was mostly a non factor. Since Game 7 of the Cap Series in 2009, name me the last big time, critical Sidney Crosby post season goal. I can go off memory and name Mario and Jagr post season goals. I am struggling to get that signature Sidney Crosby post season goal since that duel with Ovy. Maybe Game 4 of the SCF's against the Wings. But again, that was 5 years ago.

Saying they are the least of our worries is the same as blaming Jay Bell and Jeff King in the 90's and saying Bonds and Bonilla were the least of our worries in the N:CS against the Braves.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Oh, now I get it.

Despite the fact that the data CLEARLY demonstrates that Pittsburgh's top two stars are the league's two BEST playoff performers, over an approximately 100 game sample size no less (which is enormous), we should ignore all that evidence because all of Sid's and Geno's production over that prolonged period of time doesn't really count because they all happened at unimportant times and in inconsequential series against inferior playoff competition.

Conversely, everyone else on that list's points all absolutely count because they were all in clutch moments, in huge playoff series against some of the greatest teams the NHL has ever known. Is that the gist of it? Because if that is the crux of the point you're trying to make, you need a new argument. This one is ridiculously slanted and it doesn't hold up to common sense.

You (and others who continue to try to push this BS) are holding those two players to a ridiculous standard that nobody else is being held to and which they will never be able to meet - unless their team wins the Stanley Cup.

You cannot just cherry pick data. You have to consider the entire picture. You cannot sit there and say, "Well, yeah they played well in the series Pittsburgh has won but they played poorly in the series Pittsburgh has lost and are therefore responsible for those losses." If you were going to take that position, which is an asinine position to take, then you have to hold everyone else to that same standard.


Of course they played poorly - or less well - in the series their team has lost. That's how it works with everyone. If you held every player in the history of the sport to that same standard - which you must do to have an honest conversation - you would find that is usually the case. Did Wayne Gretzky play as well for the LA Kings and the '93 Stanley Cup finals when his team lost in five games to the Montréal Canadiens as he did for the Edmonton Oilers in the '84 Stanley Cup finals when his team captured its first Stanley Cup versus the New York Islanders? I have not looked at the numbers but going to go way out on a limb here and guess that the answer is going to be no, he did not. I am also going to guess the Gretzky's statistics against the Toronto Maple Leafs in the '93 Western Conference finals were much better than they were in the '93 Stanley Cup finals.

In the playoff series that Pittsburgh played with Mario Lemieux, my guess is that his production will be greater against teams we beat that it will be against teams we lost to. That is just common sense.

As for the argument of at least those guys produced even when their teams lost, you are a sophisticated hockey fan and you will understand that the game is totally different now than it was in the 80s and early to mid 90s. Comparing points per game now versus points per game then is a very different animal. And yet even by that measure, Crosby and Melken still compare very favorably to guys like limb you and Gretzky. They are all well over a point per playoff game. There are not many players in the history of the NHL who can make that claim.


My point is that the reason they haven't won a Stanley Cup since '09 is because everyone focuses all of their attention on stopping Pittsburgh's top two offensive players and there is nobody else in that lineup who can make teams pay for selling out against 87 and 71.

It is crystal clear that the problem for the Penguins has not been its stars, it has mostly been its supporting cast. There is just no doubt about that. That is why we just fired our GM after last year's playoffs. A lot of people have been very slow to acknowledge that Ray Shero flat out sucked as the Penguins' GM and he was rightly canned at the end of last season. He did a horrible job of building depth within the organization both at the minor league and NHL levels.

Look, I get the principle behind the sentiment. Those guys are our best players and our highest paid players and our highest profile players. Therefore, when the team loses, they make easy targets. However, hockey is a team sport and it always has been. History has conclusively demonstrated that it doesn't matter how good your top two centers are, if the rest of the team is not doing its part, the team is not going to win the Stanley Cup.

Sidney Crosby and of Evgeni Malkin are literally and quantitatively the very least of Pittsburgh's worries. The numbers do not lie. Our worries lie on the sticks of guys like Brandon Sutter, Nick Spaling, Patrick Hornqvist, Chris Kunitz, and the entire defensive core and goaltender. You can construe that as excuse making for the stars if you like, but I am going on the statistical evidence which is overwhelmingly in my favor.

H2P!


This post was edited on 3/4 9:14 AM by Dr. von Yinzer

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Finally, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge that Crosby and Malkin have played poor playoff series for Pittsburgh. They have not been perfect players by any means. More importantly, there have been times in which they have lost their composure and have been incredibly fragile mentally.

I am not arguing any of those points.

I am just saying that there were playoff series in which Mario Lemieux played poorly too. There were playoffs where Wayne Gretzky played poorly, Bobby Orr too. And to compare apples with other apples, there have definitely been playoff series in which Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane as well as Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown have played poorly. That does not make those guys chokers or overrated or anything like that. It just means that their teams have often won anyway because the players around those superstars have been by and large better than most of the players that have been around Pittsburgh's elite forward duo.

Who is our Marian Hossa? Who is our D pairing that compares with Keith/Seabrook? That has been my point for a few years now and it continues to be my point. We look like we have a better supporting cast this time around and hopefully that will materialize in the playoffs. Otherwise, I'm sure everyone will blame our two best players and they'll want to trade at least one of them too because sports fans are as a rule, about as reasonable as my 21-month-old son and trying to explain to them how absurdly stupid it would be to trade Geno is a bit like trying to explain to my little boy why he can't bring his favorite stuffed animal into the bathtub.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
Oh, now I get it.

Despite the fact that the data CLEARLY demonstrates that Pittsburgh's top two stars are the league's two BEST playoff performers, over an approximately 100 game sample size no less (which is enormous), we should ignore all that evidence because all of Sid's and Geno's production over that prolonged period of time doesn't really count because they all happened at unimportant times and in inconsequential series against inferior playoff competition.

Conversely, everyone else on that list's points all absolutely count because they were all in clutch moments, in huge playoff series against some of the greatest teams the NHL has ever known. Is that the gist of it? Because if that is the crux of the point you're trying to make, you need a new argument. This one is ridiculously slanted and it doesn't hold up to common sense.

You (and others who continue to try to push this BS) are holding those two players to a ridiculous standard that nobody else is being held to and which they will never be able to meet - unless their team wins the Stanley Cup.

You cannot just cherry pick data. You have to consider the entire picture. You cannot sit there and say, "Well, yeah they played well in the series Pittsburgh has won but they played poorly in the series Pittsburgh has lost and are therefore responsible for those losses." If you were going to take that position, which is an asinine position to take, then you have to hold everyone else to that same standard.

Of course they played poorly - or less well - in the series their team has lost. That's how it works with everyone. If you held every player in the history of the sport to that same standard - which you must do to have an honest conversation - you would find that is usually the case. Did Wayne Gretzky play as well for the LA Kings and the '93 Stanley Cup finals when his team lost in five games to the Montréal Canadiens as he did for the Edmonton Oilers in the '84 Stanley Cup finals when his team captured its first Stanley Cup versus the New York Islanders? I have not looked at the numbers but going to go way out on a limb here and guess that the answer is going to be no, he did not. I am also going to guess the Gretzky's statistics against the Toronto Maple Leafs in the '93 Western Conference finals were much better than they were in the '93 Stanley Cup finals.

In the playoff series that Pittsburgh played with Mario Lemieux, my guess is that his production will be greater against teams we beat that it will be against teams we lost to. That is just common sense.

As for the argument of at least those guys produced even when their teams lost, you are a sophisticated hockey fan and you will understand that the game is totally different now than it was in the 80s and early to mid 90s. Comparing points per game now versus points per game then is a very different animal. And yet even by that measure, Crosby and Melken still compare very favorably to guys like limb you and Gretzky. They are all well over a point per playoff game. There are not many players in the history of the NHL who can make that claim.

My point is that the reason they haven't won a Stanley Cup since '09 is because everyone focuses all of their attention on stopping Pittsburgh's top two offensive players and there is nobody else in that lineup who can make teams pay for selling out against 87 and 71.

It is crystal clear that the problem for the Penguins has not been its stars, it has mostly been its supporting cast. There is just no doubt about that. That is why we just fired our GM after last year's playoffs. A lot of people have been very slow to acknowledge that Ray Shero flat out sucked as the Penguins' GM and he was rightly canned at the end of last season. He did a horrible job of building depth within the organization both at the minor league and NHL levels.

Look, I get the principle behind the sentiment. Those guys are our best players and our highest paid players and our highest profile players. Therefore, when the team loses, they make easy targets. However, hockey is a team sport and it always has been. History has conclusively demonstrated that it doesn't matter how good your top two centers are, if the rest of the team is not doing its part, the team is not going to win the Stanley Cup.

Sidney Crosby and of Evgeni Malkin are literally and quantitatively the very least of Pittsburgh's worries. The numbers do not lie. Our worries lie on the sticks of guys like Brandon Sutter, Nick Spaling, Patrick Hornqvist, Chris Kunitz, and the entire defensive core and goaltender. You can construe that as excuse making for the stars if you like, but I am going on the statistical evidence which is overwhelmingly in my favor.

H2P!

This post was edited on 3/4 9:14 AM by Dr. von Yinzer

Post Season Stats:

Sidney Crosby 2008 6 Goals 21 Assists 27 Points 1.23 PPG
2009 15 Goals 16 Assists 31 Points 1.29 PPG
2010 6 Goals 13 Assists 19 Points 1.46 PPG
2011 DNP
2012 3 Goals 5 Assists 8 points 1.33 PPG (one series)
2013 7 Goals 8 Assists 15 Points 1,08 PPG
2014 1 Goal 8 Assists 9 Points 0.69 PPG (41st in post season scoring)

Evgeny Malkin 2008 10 Goals 12 Assists 22 Points 1.10 PPG
2009 14 Goals 22 Assists 36 Points 1.50 PPG Conn Smythe Winner
2010 5 Goals 6 Assists 11 Points 0.85 PPG
2011 DNP
2012 3 Goals 5 Assists 8 Points 1.33 PPG (One Series)
2013 4 Goals 12 Assists 16 Points 1.07 PPG
2014 6 Goals 8 Assists 14 Points 1.08 PPG

This definitely shows a definitive drop off in production for Sidney Crosby. Sure, you can wax on 27 paragraphs about aggregate production and points per game where he ranks in comparison to other, but in all honesty, that doesn't matter now, because NOW is NOW and what happened 4, 5 and 6 years ago is as ancient history as if we are going by that time frame, then Daniel Briere should be a hot commodity as he was great in the playoffs during those years.

There is no question, no debate, nothing, the 3 biggest culprits for the Pens falling short over the last few seasons have been 87, 71 and 29. There is not ANY OTHER person who would refute that, except perhaps John Steigerwald.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

It's just wrongheaded thinking, it is a simple as that. You are holding them to a different standard than you're holding anyone else to. That's ridiculous logic and it is foolish for me to carry-on in a debate that is like a page out of Alice in Wonderland.

You cannot cherry pick data. You have to take it as a whole - well, at least you have to do that if you are interested in an honest, fair, objective discussion. The data - which I provided along with comps - clearly does not support your theory.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
It's just wrongheaded thinking, it is a simple as that. You are holding them to a different standard than you're holding anyone else to. That's ridiculous logic and it is foolish for me to carry-on in a debate that is like a page out of Alice in Wonderland.

You cannot cherry pick data. You have to take it as a whole - well, at least you have to do that if you are interested in an honest, fair, objective discussion. The data - which I provided along with comps - clearly does not support your theory.

1) YES, I am holding them to a different standard. They are the stars, they get paid more than anyone else.

2) It is not cherry picking data when it is showing declining data. That is relevant. I am sorry. You are smarter than this. You know and understand this. I just blew your comments up, and proved it, you can just accept it and be done. Don't embarrass yourself with the lame "cherry picking data" crap, because I just picked on all of their postseason performances (except 2007 their first) and just compared their last few years showing tremendous decline compared to their first few years. THAT IS MY ARGUMENT, hence it is relevant.

The argument that Chris Kunitz is not living up to his norm while dismissing Sid or Geno's performance is flawed. Like I said, it is akin to laying the blame of the 1990's Pirates NLCS failures on Jay Bell.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

You. Just. Don't. Get. It.

It's no problem that you don't get it, many people fail to see the big picture. That's why I offer 27 paragraph posts - in a quixotic attempt to teach folks what they CLEARLY don't understand or refuse to except no matter how much data they see that tells them that they are unequivocally wrong. It's like talking about the validity of science with a staunch Christian conservative. You might as well hold your breath and twiddle your thumbs.

One final time for old times sake. Of course their production has dropped off! That is what happens when you play with inferior talent around you. Guess what, Toe Blake? If you do some actual research, you are going to find that concept is not unique to Sidney Crosby and Geno Malkin.

Wayne Gretzky is generally considered the greatest player in the history of the sport. He played for two full decades. He was part of four Stanley Cup championship teams in Edmonton - all while being surrounded by what many hockey historians consider to be among the most talented teams in the history of the sport. However, that means that he did not win the Cup in 16 of his 20 seasons. Did he choke all those times or is the truth more obvious than that? It is different when your right winger is an over the hill Tony Amonte or Brett Hull than when it was a very much in his prime Jari Kurri.

See, I'm doing it again. Shame on me. I am trying to use reason and historical context to make what should be a very obvious point but is not for some bizarre reason because in the messageboard world people make up their minds and they stick to it come hell or high water even when the actual data shows that they are incorrect, or in this case wildly incorrect.

At some point, you have to cut bait and understand that trying to explain this to you is clearly a fool's errand, so I give up. Never mind, you are right, they are the key to everything. There is no need to let the games play out and assess what actually happens whenever baseless theories of what could happen are much more interesting to discuss. No matter what happens, if we lose, it's all their fault because we have decreed it so in early March.

Finally, there is no need to compare their production to that of their actual contemporaries. Nope, that is all just preemptive excuse making for the stars. It makes much more sense to compare them to an MLB team in the early '90s.

Shame on me for being lured into this nonsense.

H2P!


This post was edited on 3/4 4:18 PM by Dr. von Yinzer

 

[CougarClaws]

You both make a number of strong points I fully agree with, but I believe you guys are missing one of the biggest issues of the last 5 years with this team. Emotions.

Dan Bylsma was a terrible post-season coach. His teams lacked even the barest hint of emotional, or any other really, discipline. And he coached them not to stick up for each other, which IMO had a hugely negative impact on the psyche of guys like Crosby, who has been just terrible against all good teams they have met in the post season since 2010.

Coach Johnstone has yet to beat the quit out of this team. They still play undisciplined, they still have a hard time sticking up for each other, they still have a hard time showing up to play hard consistently, and Crosby has evolved into one of the worst offenders since getting punched in his half-healed mouth by Chara in the 13 playoffs.

I mean, how many times has the "hardest working player in the NHL" completely no-showed a game this year - 15? 20? Sid is a mess emotionally due to serious injuries, coaching, and his own personality issues whatever they may be.

You two do know we are on the refs shit-list and not getting calls since early November specifically because of Sid's big mouth right? It's Bylsma, and Shero as has been mentioned previously here, that lit the match. They allowed this unhealthy culture to pervade the team and sink in deep. A culture of entitlement - or harking back to the day Scotty Bowman was banned from his own practices in 1993, the Country Club. That's why it's ok to play emotionally undisciplined, to not show up for games in Pittsburgh these days.

All that, and as you two mentioned the National Garage League has engineered the game so that it's almost impossible for a team to win that is not big, tough, deep, and disciplined. While we might be getting close to being a deep team again, and we are certianly skilled, maybe 1 out of 4 ain't gonna cut it. We don't make it past the 2nd round again unless our coaching staff really figures out how to get through to our stars, and especially Sid.

God I hate the NHL. Why does hockey have to be my favorite sport?

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

If you want to talk about the emotional fragility of this team and the role that the stars have played in that, I am all ears. This is the most fragile championship team I have ever seen. Personally, I think that spotty postseason goaltending is what has created much of that instability but that is a discussion for another day. Also, I agree with goalie man that Fleury is playing exceptionally well this year.

There's no question that this team has collapsed on itself too many times and continues to do so under the new coach. However, if we are going to look to assign the goat horns to one person above all others, my choice is the former general manager who kept overdrafting at some positions and under drafting at others, failing to develop players he did draft, trading away high-end prospects for rental players and failing to resign those guys, and allowing the depth around his superstars to rapidly deteriorate.

 

[CougarClaws]

Originally posted by Dr. von Yinzer:
If you want to talk about the emotional fragility of this team and the role that the stars have played in that, I am all ears. This is the most fragile championship team I have ever seen. Personally, I think that spotty postseason goaltending is what has created much of that instability but that is a discussion for another day. Also, I agree with goalie man that Fleury is playing exceptionally well this year.

There's no question that this team has collapsed on itself too many times and continues to do so under the new coach. However, if we are going to look to assign the goat horns to one person above all others, my choice is the former general manager who kept overdrafting at some positions and under drafting at others, failing to develop players he did draft, trading away high-end prospects for rental players and failing to resign those guys, and allowing the depth around his superstars to rapidly deteriorate.

Agree. However Shero was a pretty dam good GM right up until he got his balls cut off by the organization after the Cook and NY Islanders incidents during Sid's concussion/neck-meat problem. I mean, he did get us to two finals in a row with an insanely young core that he surrounded with great veteran leaders and toughness galore. That was good GMing IMO.

But just as important as the toughness issue, he had to let the coach go after the Philly series. Those post-Philly Bylsma interviews were absolutely amazing, and I thought it was obvious we weren't winning another Cup with him right then. The guy had no answers at all, and lost his shit emotionally on camera. It was the worst performance after a loss I have ever seen from a Coach.

Honestly I can't believe Shero hitched his wagon to DB, and stuck with him even after the Boston fiascoÉ

But then again, I think Goligoski, was the only roster player Ray traded in-season after he won the Cup. That right there is a strange stat. Maybe Shero was just blinded by loyalty? Or sometimes guys just lose it in their prime. That may have happened with GMRS.

Whatever the reasons, he was never the same after the Cup win...