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OT: Pens

Ski11585

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Oct 25, 2008
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So I admit that while I religiously check my fantasy hockey team, I have been less successful keeping up with the Penguins this year. So imagine my surprise when I saw they have something like the 4th most points in the NHL.

Can someone with more hockey knowledge shed some insight on how they've been able to turn things around despite some pretty key injuries?
 
The team is/was very good even with the key injuries.Depth is a big part and they have it.And make no mistake the rise started just after the coaching change.Just my guess but Johnstons system didn't work with all that talent but it's more than worked for Sullivan.Coaches and systems have to be on the same page and they seem to be on the same page now.But maybe some of the players just didn't like Johnston? I kind of wish they would have hired Sullivan to start with.
 
They're playing a lot more north and south with the speed they have. They're not the biggest but may be the fastest team in the league right now. They apply a lot of pressure.
 
As with anything else, there is no one answer. It's a combination of things.

First of all, the criticism of them was always over-the-top. Anyone who watches hockey and has any idea what they're watching, could see that there was talent there and for all the handwringing, we were only a few points out of the playoffs at our worst. However, said talent was obviously not performing to its standards and that needed to change.

The coaching change obviously helped. Our defense is still a weakness. We basically have Kris Letang and a bunch of No. 4/5 D. I think Dumoulin is on his way to becoming a real player but he's still not quite there just yet. Also, Olli Maatta is a smart player and he has some offensive upside too but he is also a very slow skater - maybe too slow to ever be a true top pairing defenseman.

Letang is carrying that unit big time. It is nice to see an excellent player finally getting his just desserts. That guy has gotten a ton of undeserved criticism over the years and it's good to see that people are FINALLY getting it w/r/t No. 58. I think Letang is one of the top four or five defensemen in the entire NHL and has been for some time.

Letang is definitely a better D than both Erik Karlsson and PK Subban and I will argue that point to the death. Unlike those other two, Letang is actually competent in his own end.

Mike Johnston sought to insulate that weak defense corps by packing the box. Sullivan has decided that the best way to protect that D corps is by controlling the puck and attacking in the offensive zone.

The Penguins personnel are much better suited to play Sullivan's style of hockey and it has showed. This is one of those rare instances were it really does look like a team has been unshackled.

That was a substantial change in mindset and it has made an enormous difference. Mike Sullivan has taken command of the team in a way that Mike Johnston never did.

Also, the personnel has changed fairly substantially since the beginning of the year. Rutherford was able to trade slower guys like Rob Scuderi and David Perron for much better skaters in Trevor Daley and Carl Hagelin. In addition to those trades, they were able to call up a number of guys from Wilkes-Barre and somewhat miraculously, they can all fly. Finally, Matt Cullen as been an incredible upgrade over Craig Adams. Like Adams, Cullen is a very good penalty killer. Unlike Adams, Cullen can actually score goals and he can really skate.

Right now, the Pens' team speed is overwhelming everyone they play against and that is really showing up as teams try to break out of their own zone and advance to puck in the neutral zone. There is simply no room for people to attack Pittsburgh. When it's working, it's a beautiful style of hockey to watch. That relentless puck pursuit in the neutral zone reminds me a lot of the way Tampa played last year and how Chicago plays every year.

People questioning whether or not this style of play will work in the playoffs are not paying attention. This is exactly how Tampa qualified for the Finals last year and how the Rangers qualified for the Finals the year before that. You can definitely make the Stanley Cup Finals playing that style of hockey. Now, can they beat the Western Conference Stanley Cup Finals representative playing that way? Nobody has done that yet but it's definitely possible.

Sidney Crosby's play also has to be acknowledged. Sid has been hands down the best player in the world since about December. That too has made a difference but I think it is probably a result of the additional pressure being put on teams by our bottom six more than anything else.

Finally, Marc-Andre Fleury is the most underrated goaltender in the league. He has certainly had his struggles over the years but for the past 2–3 years he has been outstanding. Goaltending coach Mike Bales has done a great job of tightening up his game. For the first half of the season, while the team was struggling to score, Fleury kept them in the game every single night.
 
The team is/was very good even with the key injuries.Depth is a big part and they have it.And make no mistake the rise started just after the coaching change.Just my guess but Johnstons system didn't work with all that talent but it's more than worked for Sullivan.Coaches and systems have to be on the same page and they seem to be on the same page now.But maybe some of the players just didn't like Johnston? I kind of wish they would have hired Sullivan to start with.

The coaching change brought a change in basic philosophy. The new approach is speed. Beating people to the puck. forcing turnovers. Not giving the other team room to breath. And charge the net when you get the puck and don't overpass the puck. Shoot it and get it on net. And this from all four lines.

The second part of the equation was the brilliant moves made by management. bringing in players like Hagelin, Daly and Schultz who have the speed to play the system. And last but not least bringing guys up from Wilkes-Barre who Sullivan coached down there. He saw first hand that guys like Rust, Sheery, Kunackl and Wilson can really play.

What I really like is this style of play can produce scoring from any line at any time. And it is a style you can bring every night. I'm thinking this will be a pretty nice playoff run.
 
One problem that they have is you cannot break up that second line. It has been far too productive for a prolonged stretch now. I wouldn't touch that line. However, that could present some challenges if No. 71 comes back.

Assuming Malkin can return for the playoffs – which is a big assumption – I would not mind seeing the forward lines look like this:

L1: 17 / 87 / 43
L2: 14 / 71 / 72
L3: 62 / 13 / 81
L4: 34 / 07 / 16

I only made the top line the top one because it has No. 87 on it. Whichever line he plays on is our top line. Also, though it will be tempting to put them together, I think Crosby and Geno should be split up to put pressure on opposing coaches. Also, I think Crosby can be more effective without elite players around him. Crosby and Sheary have looked really good when they played together. Their combined speed is just killing people.

Also, I really wish Dupuis was still healthy. He would be perfectly suited to play this style of N/S up-and-down hockey and we would be an even better team with him. He's like a better, more physical version of Hagelin... Or at least he was.
 
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How'd I miss this? Obviously my fav subject.

Yeah the coaching change helped. Basically, you had WVU with Pat White and Steve Slaton or Oregon's attack trying to run Wanny's offense. So the shackles were taken off. This is a fast team, not a big team, it is skilled, but not the best at setting up set plays. In basketball, it is a team best suited to press and run, run and press. And that is what they are doing.

They possess the puck. But before under Johnston they possessed the puck too, but just merely would pass the puck around the perimeter, now they are generating offense legit in scoring areas, and off the rush.

Another thing, finally...since Sid, Geno, Staal, etc...first came to the Pens, they are trusting youth and it is serving them well. The young guys, while no Crosby's or Geno's among them, have shown they have some legit NHL players, they have been given roles and their energy and speed has rewarded the coaching staff. The last regime (and the Bylsma regime) just refused to give these guys shots.

The best players are playing the best hockey. Sid and Letang have been fantastic, Phil Kessel has finally looked like the guy that the Pens hoped to get in a trade.

Jim Rutherford. Much maligned last year, and deservedly so, the Kessel trade is looking better, but the Daley and Hagelin trades have been awesome. The Matt Cullen signing has been awesome, he looks a lot like the guy filling the Billy Guerin role.

This team truly rolls out 4 lines. And if (when) Geno comes back, it will be even deeper. This will be a tough team to play against.

And finally, the goaltending whether MAF or Matt Murray has been outstanding.

This shows that BOTH DOC VON Y and Myself have been right along. Doc has been adamant about "depth scoring". I have been adamant about the best players being the best players. Both have happened. And....well.......the Pens are winning.
 
That's true, Rivals. We are getting the best of both worlds right now - depth scoring AND our top guys are scoring too. That's a tough combination to beat. Personally, I think the depth frees up Crosby and Kessel more than vice versa but when both are going, look out. We are clearly wearing down teams with our speed and I see no reason why that won't continue starting next week.

This past weekend it was shocking how much trouble two previously red hot and desperate teams - NYI and PHI - had trying to exit their own zone and play the puck into our end. In fact, that has been the case for about a month now. Teams just don't have any room at all - especially in the neutral zone. Everyone is backchecking like a demon - even Kessel! That's what most excites me. That type of thing travels very well and it's not suddenly going to disappear no matter how much teams clutch and grab or how many cheap shots teams dole out post-whistle.

Also, I really am adamant about them keeping Bonino between Hagelin and Kessel. That line has clearly found something and I can't imagine any reason to break it up. I am not the world's biggest Nick Bonino fan (he's too slow, IMHO) but he is playing better right now than he has all year because those two speedsters are creating all kinds of room for him out there. Bonino is a heady player and it you give him an extra beat or two to make a play he is talented enough to take advantage of it.

I still maintain that it was a HUGE mistake by Dan Bylsma to not put Iginla on the third line a few years back whenever it became obvious that he needed to play on the right side to be effective. Instead we kept insisting on jamming a square peg in a round hole and it simply did not work. People were dead set against that reasoning "You can't put a hall of famer on the third line." They were not thinking things through. He still would have seen similar minutes, he just wouldn't have had the top six label - which is meaningless anyway.

I hope we learn from that experience and don't make that same mistake again this year.

I would also not pair Crosby with Malkin - at least to start. I like both guys in the middle and I think splitting them up causes a lot of match up problems for opposing teams. It looks like we are going to play the Rangers in the first round and they match up better against us than any other team in the East. They can do a lot of the same things we can do but they have a hell of an insurance policy back there in the King whenever things break down. By splitting up Sid and Kessel and Geno (assuming he is back for that series) that would really force Vigneault's hand, IMHO and it would likely necessitate that he split up McDonagh and Girardi. It would also force McDonagh to play 30-35 minutes per game and I think that our speed could then wear him/them down.

I am still not hog wild about our power play. That is the last puzzle piece needed to really take a run at this thing. We are good 5-on-5, very good. However, if you want to stop people from doing dirty things to our stars, we MUST make them pay for it with the man advantage.

I am still nervous about our overall health. We are winning right now but we are definitely not going to last long without our No. 2 D, our No. 2 C and our No. 1 G in the lineup. If we can get those guys back and reasonably healthy, we are going to be a tough out.
 
That's true, Rivals. We are getting the best of both worlds right now - depth scoring AND our top guys are scoring too. That's a tough combination to beat. Personally, I think the depth frees up Crosby and Kessel more than vice versa but when both are going, look out. We are clearly wearing down teams with our speed and I see no reason why that won't continue starting next week.

Yep. And imagine a 3rd line with the addition of Malkin. Makes it tough for opposition to load up against Crosby or a Kessel. It will be a nightmare.

This past weekend it was shocking how much trouble two previously red hot and desperate teams - NYI and PHI - had trying to exit their own zone and play the puck into our end. In fact, that has been the case for about a month now. Teams just don't have any room at all - especially in the neutral zone. Everyone is backchecking like a demon - even Kessel! That's what most excites me. That type of thing travels very well and it's not suddenly going to disappear no matter how much teams clutch and grab or how many cheap shots teams dole out post-whistle.

One of the most impressive things that I saw was the Pens skating away from a lot of the crap that they traditionally would get dragged into and take stupid penalties and get their better players off their game. I think that, and the backchecking that you mention tells you how much they have bought into and respect Mike Sullivan. It is also the one thing that worries me about Geno, can he show the same discipline. Because he has yet to meet a scrum or after whistle crap that he didn't like.

Also, I really am adamant about them keeping Bonino between Hagelin and Kessel. That line has clearly found something and I can't imagine any reason to break it up. I am not the world's biggest Nick Bonino fan (he's too slow, IMHO) but he is playing better right now than he has all year because those two speedsters are creating all kinds of room for him out there. Bonino is a heady player and it you give him an extra beat or two to make a play he is talented enough to take advantage of it.

Agree. If it is not broke, don't fix it. Kessel is like a winger version of Malkin. Get him the puck, get out of the way. Bonino has done that. Plus, we have seen how Malkin doesn't necessarily click with wingers who carry the puck, as we have seen Ovy/Malkin lines fail horrifically at the Olympics.

I still maintain that it was a HUGE mistake by Dan Bylsma to not put Iginla on the third line a few years back whenever it became obvious that he needed to play on the right side to be effective. Instead we kept insisting on jamming a square peg in a round hole and it simply did not work. People were dead set against that reasoning "You can't put a hall of famer on the third line." They were not thinking things through. He still would have seen similar minutes, he just wouldn't have had the top six label - which is meaningless anyway.

Yep. People forget that in hockey, "3rd liner" doesn't necessarily mean "3rd string". Being handed Jerome Iginla and misusing him was one of Disco's biggest crimes.

I hope we learn from that experience and don't make that same mistake again this year.

I would also not pair Crosby with Malkin - at least to start. I like both guys in the middle and I think splitting them up causes a lot of match up problems for opposing teams. It looks like we are going to play the Rangers in the first round and they match up better against us than any other team in the East. They can do a lot of the same things we can do but they have a hell of an insurance policy back there in the King whenever things break down. By splitting up Sid and Kessel and Geno (assuming he is back for that series) that would really force Vigneault's hand, IMHO and it would likely necessitate that he split up McDonagh and Girardi. It would also force McDonagh to play 30-35 minutes per game and I think that our speed could then wear him/them down.

Again, agree completely. And these two guys, the "two headed" monster, hasn't necessarily yielded the best results. Two guys who need and dominate the puck. Also, when both are on the ice, they seem apt to try and make plays based on degree of difficulty, thinking you get extra credit. Plus the very fact that having the Bonino line to deal with between a Crosby line and Geno line, like you have said, how are you going to match up your defense pair.

This kind of depth and diversity also mitigates somewhat road disadvantages of the last change!


I am still not hog wild about our power play. That is the last puzzle piece needed to really take a run at this thing. We are good 5-on-5, very good. However, if you want to stop people from doing dirty things to our stars, we MUST make them pay for it with the man advantage.

This is where Geno and his shot will help IMO.

I am still nervous about our overall health. We are winning right now but we are definitely not going to last long without our No. 2 D, our No. 2 C and our No. 1 G in the lineup. If we can get those guys back and reasonably healthy, we are going to be a tough out.

True dat. I am worried about MAF, but really like Murray. A bright side to this, you can get some really high quality players back with a nice rest at the right time, ala the Hawks last year with Patrick Kane.
 
Good talk guys but don't over think it....Malkin or Bonino is a no brainer, world class hockey player or Bonino.....It isn't a tough decision despite the whispers that they might not want to break up the Hagelin, Bonino, Kessel line....
 
Man, if MAF is healthy, Geno comes back, and the power play gets going, this could be a fun spring.
 
Good talk guys but don't over think it....Malkin or Bonino is a no brainer, world class hockey player or Bonino.....It isn't a tough decision despite the whispers that they might not want to break up the Hagelin, Bonino, Kessel line....
Disagree. Until that line starts faltering you need to keep it going this year. And really, Malkin with Hornqvist and Kunitz is pretty solid anyways, if Sid is comfortable with Rust and Sheary. And then you certainly work some shifts with Geno and Sid together.
 
Disagree. Until that line starts faltering you need to keep it going this year. And really, Malkin with Hornqvist and Kunitz is pretty solid anyways, if Sid is comfortable with Rust and Sheary. And then you certainly work some shifts with Geno and Sid together.

Last night the Bonino/Kessell/Hagelund scored a couple more goals. You don't touch it. I think you can use Geno as a occasional 3rd line C, and sometimes winger with Sid. You can really create some matchup nightmares now for the opposition. But until they are shut down over a few games, I wouldn't mess with something that is working so well.
 
Good talk guys but don't over think it....Malkin or Bonino is a no brainer, world class hockey player or Bonino.....It isn't a tough decision despite the whispers that they might not want to break up the Hagelin, Bonino, Kessel line....
Malkin centering a different trio would not be a bad move either. Would be like having 3 top lines. A real matchup nightmare.
 
Malkin centering a different trio would not be a bad move either. Would be like having 3 top lines. A real matchup nightmare.
think you are wasting a top 5 talent with malkin playing between Bennett and fehr.. Benino is never a better option than Malkin, EVER..
 
So I love hockey but far from a tactical expert.
What do the PENS do when the "fat slow Russian" Malkin comes back if he comes back.
I say keep things the way they are and play him sparingly???
What do the PENS do next year with Malkin and Crosby plus all the producers from this season??
But first lets win the Stanley Cup and think about that over the summer!
 
So I love hockey but far from a tactical expert.
What do the PENS do when the "fat slow Russian" Malkin comes back if he comes back.
I say keep things the way they are and play him sparingly???
What do the PENS do next year with Malkin and Crosby plus all the producers from this season??
But first lets win the Stanley Cup and think about that over the summer!
Malkin is fat?? Malkin is slow?? keep up the great posts buffethead

 
What did you say?

In all fairness, your assessment back then was probably accurate at that time.

I have been very down on the organization. From the ownership's approach to keeping friends around, regardless of their usefulness, to the appearance that they are falling into the mode the Pirates have used to keep people showing up during the regular season by being just good enough to win but never really building a team to make a deep playoff run.

I'm just extremely cynical about them. Still not sure they can win a series against a physical team but that's just me. I'm probably wrong on a few levels for that but I was very hard on them earlier in the year. To be honest, I haven't watched many games this year (I have a health issue that prevents me from enjoying watching things that move quickly for prolonged periods on the TV) but I do pay attention to the news.

If nothing else, they seem to have brought in some guys that play to win and are very hungry for a championship.
 
So I love hockey but far from a tactical expert.
What do the PENS do when the "fat slow Russian" Malkin comes back if he comes back.
I say keep things the way they are and play him sparingly???
What do the PENS do next year with Malkin and Crosby plus all the producers from this season??
But first lets win the Stanley Cup and think about that over the summer!
This simply deserves a WTF?
 
I have been very down on the organization. From the ownership's approach to keeping friends around, regardless of their usefulness, to the appearance that they are falling into the mode the Pirates have used to keep people showing up during the regular season by being just good enough to win but never really building a team to make a deep playoff run.

I'm just extremely cynical about them. Still not sure they can win a series against a physical team but that's just me. I'm probably wrong on a few levels for that but I was very hard on them earlier in the year. To be honest, I haven't watched many games this year (I have a health issue that prevents me from enjoying watching things that move quickly for prolonged periods on the TV) but I do pay attention to the news.

If nothing else, they seem to have brought in some guys that play to win and are very hungry for a championship.

Get well soon, buddy.
 
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think you are wasting a top 5 talent with malkin playing between Bennett and fehr.. Benino is never a better option than Malkin, EVER..

I definitely wouldn't pair Malkin with Bennett and Fehr. I would have Malkin center Kunitz and Hornqvist on the first line. Kunitz and Geno have performed well together over the years and I think Hornqvist could come along there too.

Assuming you leave the second line as is, and why would you mess with it, that ostensibly necessitates that the Pens move Crosby to the third line. However, that's all semantics. Sid and Sheary have looked TREMENDOUS when paired together and I would give that pairing a shot against New York. The other winger could be any number of guys but I would go with Bryan Rust - who is also fast and goes to the net EVERY DAMN TIME! I LOVE that player! I sincerely think that would be a very effective/problematic line and that lineup would give EVERYONE all kinds of trouble.

The only downside is that is a lot of experimentation without any practice to give guys time to gel. However, when you look at it objectively and don't get caught up in any silly labels, that is probably our best chance to win the whole damn thing, IMHO. It allows each puck dominating forward (Geno, Sid, Kessel) to have his own line and your fourth line would be a shut down trio of Kuhnackl, Cullen and Fehr.

Beau Bennett would be our 13th forward and would be the first guy off the bench if/when someone gets injured. Scott Wilson could also fill that role.
 
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Malkin is fat?? Malkin is slow?? keep up the great posts buffethead

Ok!Malkin will be buried by the guys the PENS are playing now!
Not sure he'll fit in with the new "fast pace" system!
He works hard when its to his advantage, doesn't give 100% /100% of the time! Not a total team guy which Sullivan demands!
Trade the " fat slow pansy Russian."
Malkin also hides when he's intimidated. For example Ovechkin scares the "rubles" out of Malkin!
 
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I definitely wouldn't pair Malkin with Bennett and Fehr. I would have Malkin center Kunitz and Hornqvist on the first line. Kunitz and Geno have performed well together over the years and I think Hornqvist could come along there too.

Assuming you leave the second line as is, and why would you mess with it, that ostensibly necessitates that the Pens move Crosby to the third line. However, that's all semantics. Sid and Sheary have looked TREMENDOUS when paired together and I would give that pairing a shot against New York. The other winger could be any number of guys but I would go with Bryan Rust - who is also fast and goes to the net EVERY DAMN TIME! I LOVE that player! I sincerely think that would be a very effective/problematic line and that lineup would give EVERYONE all kinds of trouble.

The only downside is that is a lot of experimentation without any practice to give guys time to gel. However, when you look at it objectively and don't get caught up in any silly labels, that is probably our best chance to win the whole damn thing, IMHO. It allows each puck dominating forward (Geno, Sid, Kessel) to have his own line and your fourth line would be a shut down trio of Kuhnackl, Cullen and Fehr.

Beau Bennett would be our 13th forward and would be the first guy off the bench if/when someone gets injured. Scott Wilson could also fill that role.
I enjoy reading your hockey posts!
You should post a weekly PENS Hockey Corner season update on the football board.
You know your hockey especially PENS hockey!
 
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Ok!Malkin will be buried by the guys the PENS are playing now!
Not sure he'll fit in with the new "fast pace" system!
He works hard when its to his advantage, doesn't give 100% /100% of the time! Not a total team guy which Sullivan demands!
Trade the " fat slow pansy Russian."
Malkin also hides when he's intimidated. For example Ovechkin scares the "rubles" out of Malkin!
No. This is stupid. That being said, seeing this team and how well it is playing overall, I wouldn't discount trading Malkin if a deal makes sense. But don't discount what he can bring. And you maybe the first person in the history of the world to call Geno Malkin fat. He is not even close to that. Do you watch these games?
 
No. This is stupid. That being said, seeing this team and how well it is playing overall, I wouldn't discount trading Malkin if a deal makes sense. But don't discount what he can bring. And you maybe the first person in the history of the world to call Geno Malkin fat. He is not even close to that. Do you watch these games?
Every game! Watching the PENS vs Caps now! We pay for Center Ice to watch the games since we don't live in the area! We attend some as well!
When I say "fat" its a figure of speech because he chooses his spots to work hard! He skates like an out of shape fat boy who only works hard when he feels like it! That my opinion! This NEW team works hard every second that's why they're winning in addition to the new coach Sullivan!
These guys will leave Malkin in the dust! He'll be traded!
 
Every game! Watching the PENS vs Caps now! We pay for Center Ice to watch the games since we don't live in the area! We attend some as well!
When I say "fat" its a figure of speech because he chooses his spots to work hard! He skates like an out of shape fat boy who only works hard when he feels like it! That my opinion! This NEW team works hard every second that's why they're winning in addition to the new coach Sullivan!
These guys will leave Malkin in the dust! He'll be traded!

Dude, it is obvious you are not the sharpest tool in the toolbox and that is OK. The world needs parrotheads too. I mean you are the one who just posted on BB board on how the NBA is dying and NCAA BB is thriving when every rating suggests the exact opposite.

This team will need Geno to get through the East and get the cup. Did you see that PP last night? Did you? Geno is another gamebreaker.

I do agree, I would look to explore trading him, just because in the offseason. But adding him to what we already have, this team is going to be seriously dangerous. And he is not fat. He is not slow. He is also not lazy. He is undisciplined. And that is where he needs to play by the rules, not get involved in scrums and stupid penalties (not lazy but stupid).

I would make him the X factor. I would have him Center a "third" line and also take an occasional shift at wing on Sid's line.

But I would not break up the Bonini/Hagelin/Kessel line.
 
Dude, it is obvious you are not the sharpest tool in the toolbox and that is OK. The world needs parrotheads too. I mean you are the one who just posted on BB board on how the NBA is dying and NCAA BB is thriving when every rating suggests the exact opposite.

This team will need Geno to get through the East and get the cup. Did you see that PP last night? Did you? Geno is another gamebreaker.

I do agree, I would look to explore trading him, just because in the offseason. But adding him to what we already have, this team is going to be seriously dangerous. And he is not fat. He is not slow. He is also not lazy. He is undisciplined. And that is where he needs to play by the rules, not get involved in scrums and stupid penalties (not lazy but stupid).

I would make him the X factor. I would have him Center a "third" line and also take an occasional shift at wing on Sid's line.

But I would not break up the Bonini/Hagelin/Kessel line.
Good points!
Yes the 5 min PP on the Caps Wilson penalty wasn't good! The PENS might have gotten off two shots but we scored at full strength right after the PP.
Go PENS!
 
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