OT: PIAA Football

[jivecat]

Off week so I thought these observations may be interesting to some. Looking at HS football rankings, it looks like the western part of the state is dominating. I am taking 6A schools out of the conversation since St Joe's Prep, LaSalle, and Roman are clearly gaming the system and ruining the 6A PIAA tournament. If you look at the 5A and 4A groups, the western part of the state is very strong and represented well in the rankings. There has been a drop in football participation in the eastern part of the state. We are seeing teams not fielding reasonably sized JV teams as many kids are playing "up". I also think other sports (and more private schools) are gaining popularity quicker in the eastern part of the state.

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

Off week so I thought these observations may be interesting to some. Looking at HS football rankings, it looks like the western part of the state is dominating. I am taking 6A schools out of the conversation since St Joe's Prep, LaSalle, and Roman are clearly gaming the system and ruining the 6A PIAA tournament. If you look at the 5A and 4A groups, the western part of the state is very strong and represented well in the rankings. There has been a drop in football participation in the eastern part of the state. We are seeing teams not fielding reasonably sized JV teams as many kids are playing "up". I also think other sports (and more private schools) are gaining popularity quicker in the eastern part of the state.

5A in the WPIAL is far better than 6A. NA and Central are the only pretty good teams in 6A and PR beat Central this year.

 

[pittdan77]

There really aren't many 6A schools in the west just like there aren't as many 3A or lower schools in the east.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

There really aren't many 6A schools in the west just like there aren't as many 3A or lower schools in the east.

Again the fact there are any AA and A public schools in Allegheny County and even most parts of Westmoreland and Beaver Counties is criminal.

 

[Parkview57]

Again the fact there are any AA and A public schools in Allegheny County and even most parts of Westmoreland and Beaver Counties is criminal.

Along those same lines, there should only be one University in Pennsylvania receiving state subsidies, especially with the ability to gain degrees online. Wasting money on bureaucracy and then asking for taxpayer help is criminal at all levels don't ya think?

 

[jivecat]

Along those same lines, there should only be one University in Pennsylvania receiving state subsidies, especially with the ability to gain degrees online. Wasting money on bureaucracy and then asking for taxpayer help is criminal at all levels don't ya think?

How would you change the current system?

 

[Parkview57]

How would you change the current system?

I was being sarcastic in this instance.

I really don't know enough about college funding, other than to say universities like Pitt and Temple in our state's urban areas are extremely valuable, if for no other reason than their availability to a large number of commuters , just my opinion.

 

[jivecat]

I was being sarcastic in this instance.

I really don't know enough about college funding, other than to say universities like Pitt and Temple in our state's urban areas are extremely valuable, if for no other reason than their availability to a large number of commuters , just my opinion.

whew....I see many takes on the board but that was a new one. I think State College is great but the way they run the school and brand on higher level education can be suspect.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

5A in the WPIAL is far better than 6A. NA and Central are the only pretty good teams in 6A and PR beat Central this year.

huge bethel vs usc game coming up.

 

[Ruffsdale Panther]

PIAA just needs to drop 6A and go back to 5A. 6A still has still 5A in non conference games.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

PIAA just needs to drop 6A and go back to 5A. 6A still has still 5A in non conference games.

the 6A is dumb. 19 teams in 5a, 18 teams in 4 and only 7 in 6a. just pointless.

that's 44 teams. you could very easily come up with a solution on enrollment to even this out OR like you said, maybe go to only 5 classes and again, fudge the enrollment cut off so some of the bottom 5a teams go to 4A so the 5A and 4A are even..

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

Along those same lines, there should only be one University in Pennsylvania receiving state subsidies, especially with the ability to gain degrees online. Wasting money on bureaucracy and then asking for taxpayer help is criminal at all levels don't ya think?

That's great. But it is not along "those same lines" and has nothing to do with this thread. Take your Penn State obsession and start your own thread.

 

[Parkview57]

it is not along "those same lines"

Yes, yes it is

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

huge bethel vs usc game coming up.

The haves vs the have-nots

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

the 6A is dumb. 19 teams in 5a, 18 teams in 4 and only 7 in 6a. just pointless.

It's almost as if the PIAA has a constituency beyond the WPIAL. I know, who knew, right?

Statewide there are 89 6A schools and 95 5A schools for football. The problem, assuming that you think there is one, is that the WPIAL won't combine schools across classes into the same sections. And the reason why they won't do that is that every time it gets proposed, included earlier this year, the schools vote against it. They simply don't want it.

If you are looking for someone to blame, put the blame where it belongs. With the WPIAL and the schools that make up the WPIAL.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

It's almost as if the PIAA has a constituency beyond the WPIAL. I know, who knew, right?

Statewide there are 89 6A schools and 95 5A schools for football. The problem, assuming that you think there is one, is that the WPIAL won't combine schools across classes into the same sections. And the reason why they won't do that is that every time it gets proposed, included earlier this year, the schools vote against it. They simply don't want it.

If you are looking for someone to blame, put the blame where it belongs. With the WPIAL and the schools that make up the WPIAL.

They should just have geographic based sections regardless of class to an extent. Obviously you arent going to have 1A in the same section as 6A but good 4A programs can play with 6A schools which are geographically close. Its not the end of the world if 4A Chartiers Valley is in a section with 6A Lebo and 5A USC, Peters, BP, etc. Maybe they go 4-5 but it seems like everyone makes the playoffs anyway and hopefully these gym teachers have a brain (wishful thinking) so they realize going 4-5 ve Lebo, Peters, etc is better than Laurel Highlands going 7-2 vs girls teams, band nerds, Minecraft kids, and farmers.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

They should just have geographic based sections regardless of class to an extent. Obviously you arent going to have 1A in the same section as 6A but good 4A programs can play with 6A schools which are geographically close. Its not the end of the world if 4A Chartiers Valley is in a section with 6A Lebo and 5A USC, Peters, BP, etc. Maybe they go 4-5 but it seems like everyone makes the playoffs anyway and hopefully these gym teachers have a brain (wishful thinking) so they realize going 4-5 ve Lebo, Peters, etc is better than Laurel Highlands going 7-2 vs girls teams, band nerds, Minecraft kids, and farmers.

I can't imagine how anyone who knows anything about Western PA high school football could think that schools, coaches , administrators, students, players, etc. would rather go 4-5 in a tough section than 7-2 in a weak one.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I can't imagine how anyone who knows anything about Western PA high school football could think that schools, coaches , administrators, students, players, etc. would rather go 4-5 in a tough section than 7-2 in a weak one.

They wouldn't have a choice. You play schools within 2 classes who are close to you. Come up with an RPI formula or literally just use RPI. It is not difficult to understand that this season

Bethel: W
SF: L
Peters: L
USC: L
CM: W
Lebo: L
Trinity: W
TJ: L
Baldwin: W

is better than

Uniontown: W
AG: W
Southmoreland: W
Derry: W
Mount Pleasant: W
Yough: W
Connellsville: L
Belle Vernon: L
EF: W

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

They wouldn't have a choice. You play schools within 2 classes who are close to you. Come up with an RPI formula or literally just use RPI. It is not difficult to understand that this season

Bethel: W
SF: L
Peters: L
USC: L
CM: W
Lebo: L
Trinity: W
TJ: L
Baldwin: W

is better than

Uniontown: W
AG: W
Southmoreland: W
Derry: W
Mount Pleasant: W
Yough: W
Connellsville: L
Belle Vernon: L
EF: W

Once again, it's the schools that don't want it. And much like the NCAA is nothing more than the member schools, the WPIAL is nothing more than the member schools.

It's not going to happen because the schools don't want it. Because the SCHOOLS (and lots of others) think that 7-2 in a weak section is far, far better than 4-5 in a tough one.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Once again, it's the schools that don't want it. And much like the NCAA is nothing more than the member schools, the WPIAL is nothing more than the member schools.

It's not going to happen because the schools don't want it. Because the SCHOOLS (and lots of others) think that 7-2 in a weak section is far, far better than 4-5 in a tough one.

Do you think 4-5 playing South Hills 5A/6A schools is better than playing Fayette/Westmoreland 3A/4A schools?

I get what you are saying and I know this won't happen but these are very stupid people who run the WPIAL. Gym teachers who went to Cal, IUP, and Slippery Rock. They have no clue what they are doing.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Do you think 4-5 playing South Hills 5A/6A schools is better than playing Fayette/Westmoreland 3A/4A schools?

I think, or check that, I know, that it doesn't make any difference what I think, or what you think. The 5A schools in the South Hills would rather play other similarly sized schools. The 3A schools in Fayette would rather play similarly sized schools.

The reason why I know this is because every two years when they realign, one of the choices is always to do away with sections by class and switch to sections by geography. And every single time so far it's been voted down. And none of the votes have ever actually even been close.

Hell, they can't even get the schools to agree to something like that in the "lesser" sports, the ones where most schools don't get anyone more than parents and relatives in attendance at games. Because the schools do not want it. Never have. And all that matters is what the schools want.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I think, or check that, I know, that it doesn't make any difference what I think, or what you think. The 5A schools in the South Hills would rather play other similarly sized schools. The 3A schools in Fayette would rather play similarly sized schools.

The reason why I know this is because every two years when they realign, one of the choices is always to do away with sections by class and switch to sections by geography. And every single time so far it's been voted down. And none of the votes have ever actually even been close.

Hell, they can't even get the schools to agree to something like that in the "lesser" sports, the ones where most schools don't get anyone more than parents and relatives in attendance at games. Because the schools do not want it. Never have. And all that matters is what the schools want.

I'm asking what you think to see whether or not you think it would be difficult to discern between a 4-5 4A team playing a 5A/6A schedule and a 7-2 4A team playing a 3A/4A schedule. I know nobody wants this. But the reason they dont want it is because they are afraid of missing the playoffs. A school like CV would not want to go 4-5 in a tough section with 5A/6A schools and get left out because LH went 5-4 playing girls. I get that. But my response would be: "We arent idiots. We know 4-5 in that South Hills Section might equate to 9-0 in Fayette/Westmoreland 3A/4A ball so we will take your strength of schedule into account."

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I'm asking what you think to see whether or not you think it would be difficult to discern between a 4-5 4A team playing a 5A/6A schedule and a 7-2 4A team playing a 3A/4A schedule. I know nobody wants this. But the reason they dont want it is because they are afraid of missing the playoffs. A school like CV would not want to go 4-5 in a tough section with 5A/6A schools and get left out because LH went 5-4 playing girls. I get that. But my response would be: "We arent idiots. We know 4-5 in that South Hills Section might equate to 9-0 in Fayette/Westmoreland 3A/4A ball so we will take your strength of schedule into account."

It is, in fact, not that they think that they will miss the playoffs if they go 4-5. Because they all understand that if 12 teams make the playoffs in a certain class that 12 teams will, in fact, make the playoffs.

As to what I would like to see, I don't care one way or the other. Other than my alma mater I can't remember the last time I watched even one second of a high school football game.

However I do find it odd that someone who complains about the number of blowouts in high school football would think it was a good idea to have 3A teams playing 5A teams or 4A teams playing 6A teams, when the chances of a blowout would be much, much higher.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

It is, in fact, not that they think that they will miss the playoffs if they go 4-5. Because they all understand that if 12 teams make the playoffs in a certain class that 12 teams will, in fact, make the playoffs.

As to what I would like to see, I don't care one way or the other. Other than my alma mater I can't remember the last time I watched even one second of a high school football game.

However I do find it odd that someone who complains about the number of blowouts in high school football would think it was a good idea to have 3A teams playing 5A teams or 4A teams playing 6A teams, when the chances of a blowout would be much, much higher.

My plan would eliminate blowouts because like schools would be grouped together. Geography and competitiveness would be taken into account. It wouldnt be 100% geography. Lets say CV was a really bad 4A program, well maybe then they are in a conference with 2A Wash High and 2A Chartiers-Houston and 2A McGuffey. Not even sure those are 2A schools but you get my idea. If you gave me an hour, I could decrease blowouts by 75% and group schools geographically.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

If you gave me an hour, I could decrease blowouts by 75% and group schools geographically.

And other than you, literally no one else would care. As has been evidenced, over and over again.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

And other than you, literally no one else would care. As has been evidenced, over and over again.

They don't care because they arent intelligent enough to understand you can decrease blowouts, group schools geographically, and still have the most deserving 12-16 teams make the playoffs in each class.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

And other than you, literally no one else would care. As has been evidenced, over and over again.

so to summarize this thread, it's pretty much just posters on an anonymous message board making a mountain out of a molehill when 99.9% of the high school football community couldn't care less and sees no issues at all.


Pretty much par for the course on here. Pantherlair posters wanting to blow up every single A school and re-arrange school districts because a team in greene county got mercy ruled.

 

[pittdan77]

The problem, assuming that you think there is one, is that the WPIAL won't combine schools across classes into the same sections. And the reason why they won't do that is that every time it gets proposed, included earlier this year, the schools vote against it. They simply don't want it.

Many other districts do it. Sometimes conferences even cross district lines and AAA teams play A teams. It's just how it's done everywhere else and nobody loses a ton of sleep over it. It's not always great for the smaller schools but it beats having to drive two hours for a game against the same sized school every year.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

It's almost as if the PIAA has a constituency beyond the WPIAL. I know, who knew, right?

Statewide there are 89 6A schools and 95 5A schools for football. The problem, assuming that you think there is one, is that the WPIAL won't combine schools across classes into the same sections. And the reason why they won't do that is that every time it gets proposed, included earlier this year, the schools vote against it. They simply don't want it.

If you are looking for someone to blame, put the blame where it belongs. With the WPIAL and the schools that make up the WPIAL.

Again. There is no reason, none whatsoever aside from a school being private that there should be anything less than a AAA school within a 25 mile radius of Pittsburgh. None. Zero. No Springdale. No Cornell. No Riverview. No Wilkinsburg. No Steel Valley, South Park, Carlynton, Keystone Oaks, Brentwood, Sto Rox, Valley, Burrell etc...... There is no reason why these districts need to exist. I mean some, what a complete gerrymander job to even have a district.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Many other districts do it. Sometimes conferences even cross district lines and AAA teams play A teams. It's just how it's done everywhere else and nobody loses a ton of sleep over it. It's not always great for the smaller schools but it beats having to drive two hours for a game against the same sized school every year.

i just dont see any real competitive disadvantages between 5A and 6A schools. these schools have been competing against each other for 50 years before 6a was created, they were all 4A. USC, Lebo, Bethel, Baldwin in the south hills all competed for decades. Now saying that one is at a disadvantage over another because they have 50 less boys in the graduating class is a bit silly..


Now im not saying you go strictly geographical. You dont want to see USC or bethel beating the hell out of Seton La Salle or keystone oaks because it's a 3 mile bus ride to the stadium but 5a - 6a, it's the same. Canon Mac and Mt Lebo (6a schools) would most likely get boat raced by Peters, USC and Bethel this year (5a schools).

 

[pittdan77]

i just dont see any real competitive disadvantages between 5A and 6A schools. these schools have been competing against each other for 50 years before 6a was created, they were all 4A. USC, Lebo, Bethel, Baldwin in the south hills all competed for decades. Now saying that one is at a disadvantage over another because they have 50 less boys in the graduating class is a bit silly..


Now im not saying you go strictly geographical. You dont want to see USC or bethel beating the hell out of Seton La Salle or keystone oaks because it's a 3 mile bus ride to the stadium but 5a - 6a, it's the same. Canon Mac and Mt Lebo (6a schools) would most likely get boat raced by Peters, USC and Bethel this year (5a schools).

Almost all of these schools were all lumped into 4A before so it's just a BS copout. Frankly, I thought six classifications was dumb prior to the expansion but now I like it. Makes more sense because the disparities are huge on the small school end of things with fewer classifications. Not playing across classifications in the regular season is petty and dumb. The WPIAL does a lot of dumb things that just stink of worn out traditions and clinging to a past that is long gone. Most PIAA districts are very transparent with playoff seeding and reward schools who play up and win. Not the WPIAL. Have to have a secret meeting and piss people off every year.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Not playing across classifications in the regular season is petty and dumb.

teams do play across classifications in the regular season. Bethel just played West Mifflin, who is in a lower classification. Both Peters and USC (5a) just played McKeesport (4a).

many more examples of this happening.. canon mac played multiple 5 a schools.

 

[pittdan77]

teams do play across classifications in the regular season. Bethel just played West Mifflin, who is in a lower classification. Both Peters and USC (5a) just played McKeesport (4a).

many more examples of this happening.. canon mac played multiple 5 a schools.

That's good. It doesn't make sense to avoid these games.

It's not uncommon for a 1A school to play a 4A school in Central PA. Bishop Guilfoyle is curb stomping some 3A schools that have recently made deep runs into the PIAA playoffs and it's not like they're loading up on recruits to do it. It's all about understanding the level of competition and a roster with 40 kids can play another school with a 40 kid roster, regardless of enrollment.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

That's good. It doesn't make sense to avoid these games.

it makes sense for 6a - 5a for sure. Lebo and USC should be playing every year. Was an incredible rivalry all thru 80s and 90s and into 2000s.

Bethel playing west mifflin was weird to me and was very surprised usc and peters played mckeesport. those games went about as well as expected. The bethel game was over before it started, peters just whipped up on mckeesport and had their JV in the whole second half.

 

[pittdan77]

it makes sense for 6a - 5a for sure. Lebo and USC should be playing every year. Was an incredible rivalry all thru 80s and 90s and into 2000s.

Bethel playing west mifflin was weird to me and was very surprised usc and peters played mckeesport. those games went about as well as expected. The bethel game was over before it started, peters just whipped up on mckeesport and had their JV in the whole second half.

Some coaches like to play up to challenge their kids.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

Some coaches like to play up to challenge their kids.

mckeesport needs to find other ways to challenge their players, west mifflin too.