Signing a team friendly extension is not the same as a free agent signing.
You can move a team friendly deal at any time. You can't deal a dumb free agent signing at any time.
OT.....Pirates and Nutting
- Thread starter TD_istheman
- Start date
Signing a team friendly extension is not the same as a free agent signing.
You can move a team friendly deal at any time. You can't deal a dumb free agent signing at any time.
Nobody is saying to sign a dumb free agent deal.
Though you still believe the Lester deal was bad. But the Niese deal? Genius!
Let's see where Lester is near the end, is what I'm saying. I've posted the article multiple time on how big pitching contracts are almost all disasters by the end.
But you could get rid of them without needing to eat that contract, or a solid portion of it. You aren't saddled with that deal eating up your payroll, you can easily rid yourself of the burden.
I would rather pay legitimate players legitimate money. But then that would entail paying legitimate players legitimate money so you're not in favor of that I bet.
You keep talking about being able to easily get rid of players you've signed or traded for like it's a good thing. If you're constantly having to dump bad players, you're not doing your job correctly. And you're wasting a bunch of money that could've been allocated to real players.
You would rather pay legitimate players legitimate money for less than half of the deal's term. Free agent deals turn to crap way too frequently to pretend like you're paying a legitimate player.
Being able to dump players because they're cheap and not being able to dump players because they're expensive is 2 different things.
You think the Yankees wouldn't have loved to get rid of CC Sabathia recently? Or A-Rod? Or Teixeira?
If those guys are on tiny deals, they're easy to just let go. On massive deals? Not happening.
Here's the thing, those three guys brought a championship to the Bronx. There was a ton of value in that. They aren't winning that title without those three, or guys on tiny deals replacing them. And they could've dealt each of those guys at the halfway point of their contract if they wanted to.
Okay. So you want the Pirates to play for the short term.
This discussion is utterly pointless in that case.
Winning a championship is worth a few 80-85 win seasons. Hell, they're likely headed for a 80-85 win season without winning a championship.
Okay. Well, when baseball stops being as random as college basketball and teams start behaving accordingly, I'll shift my priorities from "be good for as long as possible" to "be as good as possible over a 2 year stretch".
As it is, teams are playing for longevity. Not maxing out as soon as possible.
Okay, Del.
I still have no idea how anybody can look at baseball playoffs and believe they're anything but randomness. It's amazing to me.
LOL keep on making excuses for a front office that punted on the season after winning 98 games.
Niese
Locke
Nicasio
Vogelsong
The process.
Spots for prospects not tied up by a guy like Mike Leake for 5 years.
Any more straw men? Seems that's where you've wound up.
The straw man is thinking you are blocking anybody. You can always make room for real talent. Teams are looking to deal for Liriano this year. If you needed a spot, you could've dealt him.
Liriano has a strong track record and has a year and a half left on a deal paying him $13MM per. He's been far better for his career than just about any of the available pitchers last year.
That's an extremely easy contract to move, and a better player historically to boot.
Did you see what the Padres had to pay just to get the White Sox to take James Shields off their hands and give up a C-level hitter in the process?
Do you think the Giants could move Matt Cain right now?
No, you can't just move a dumb, long contract like its nothing.
The issue isn't making room on the 25 man, it's not tying up payroll on some guy in the minor leagues when you DFA him.
Your position on the so called "randomness" of playoff results is totally bizarre and wouldn't be accepted by anyone with a brain. You're hilarious...ridiculous.
The Giants have really been killed by the Cain contract I guess. It's really stopped them from acquiring other pitchers and having the best record in baseball.
Good one.
Again, you're not blocking any prospect, you can always move players to make room if the prospect is worth it. The bigger problem is not wanting to move crap like Niese and Locke out of the rotation for better pitchers that are prospects.
Good one.
Again, you're not blocking any prospect, you can always move players to make room if the prospect is worth it. The bigger problem is not wanting to move crap like Niese and Locke out of the rotation for better pitchers that are prospects.
The Giants are 1) a far larger market and 2) at the end of their window -- with Cain's contract a big part of the reason why people are projecting them to be in their final years before a rebuild.
A crippling contract they can't move won't kill them. It WILL kill the Pirates, as we've seen with the other similar revenue teams (Reds, Brewers, Twins).
I think you're overreacting a bit to the pitcher thing. Cole was hurt, and post All-Star Break they're moving Niese out of the rotation now that Cole is back. I think that would have been done earlier if not for Cole's injury.
And, again, the issue isn't making room on the 25 man. It's having Edwin Jackson pitching in the bullpen or in AAA making $15MM dollars annually over several seasons, thereby tying up your payroll so that you can't address ACTUAL problem spots or wind up needing to non-tender players.
Overreacting to the pitcher thing? They have the second worst pitching in the majors. And that's direct result of Niese, Locke, Nicasio in the rotation.
You can't be this dense, can you?
And the Giants aren't at the end of their window, their best players are in their prime right now.
You can't be this dense, can you?
And the Giants aren't at the end of their window, their best players are in their prime right now.
Their best players are 28 and 29. So, again, end of their window. Best players are either leaving or getting really expensive as they hit their decline years, they have some bad contracts on the books, their farm system is shot (and the contracts are so bad that they can't re-stock it). Therefore, that's the end of the window.
And, yes, I am that dense. I blame the bad pitching more on Francisco Liriano being likely the worst pitcher in the majors and Gerrit Cole being injured.
If you're replacing Nicasio and one other pitcher with 2 of the rookies, Cole is healthy, and Liriano is even pitching at 2014 levels (his worst year here), the rotation is far better to date -- or at least more palatable since any struggles would just be the usual rookie scuffles.
You keep creating this scenario where you claim the Pirates will have to pay Leake or Edwin Jackson. Nobody is advocating them signing back of rotation pitchers. That's the entire reason the Niese trade was stupid. They traded a very good 2B for a crap pitcher the Mets booted from their rotation last year. And that wasn't random.
Just like a front office apologist to excuse the crap like Niese, Locke, and Nicasio and blame Cole, who missed less than a third of the first half.
People advocated for signing JA Happ and Jeff Samardzija. Those are back-end starters.
And come on, Walker is not a very good 2B. He's like Jon Niese -- a 2.0 - 2.5 WAR player over the course of his career.
I think it would have lessened the presence of one of Locke/Niese. That's it. It's not Cole's fault. Pitchers are pitchers. That's why it's dumb to ever pay them.
If you're gonna bitch about how long those guys were around, I'm going point out why they were around that long.
From 2011 on, his first full season, he had a 2.4 WAR once, been over 2.5 every other year.
Josh Harrison is awful, he had a fluke year and they made a poor decision to give him the money and ultimately jettison Walker.
And yet the moron running the team batted him leadoff tonight.
Of course. Their long-term contributions are far more important than a total of maybe 20 combined starts.
Okay. Is them being around for a half year more damaging than having a back-end starter tying up payroll for multiple years?
Obviously not.
Have you checked their record?
And again, you keep bringing up this argument where you think people wanted back end SP signed. You really need to stop that, it's dishonest at best.
There are still evaluators saying that Glasnow isn't ready. Taillon had plenty to prove, he was 2 years removed from pitching.
Taillon's gotten smacked around just as many times as he's been awesome. Let's not act like he's some panacea that the Pirates just held down out of spite.
Yeah I'll take a guy with a 1.25 whip and 4.2 K:BB in his first five starts.
Who did people want signed, then? Specifics.
I saw Latos and Kazmir and Leake and Happ mentioned this offseason for sure.
He's been fine, and, if you were going to replace Niese with him instead of replacing an injured Cole with him, I think it would've made a big difference.
I don't think he's been substantially better than Locke over such a small sample. Maybe a half win better if you extrapolate?
There's definitely no way I'd have started him in Pittsburgh though. That arm is way too valuable.
People wanted Happ. 1.20 whip, 3.36 ERA, 77 ERA-, 92 FIP- this year. That's a solid mid rotation SP putting those numbers up in AL.
I wanted Cueto.
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