ADVERTISEMENT

OT: R Penguins n'at.

recruitsreadtheseboards

Lair Hall of Famer
Jun 11, 2006
88,279
78,959
113
I hope to keep this somewhat coherent, it could be long, I know what I want to say, don't know how long it will take. The last few years in Penguinland have not been fun. So much missed opportunities, empty promises and chances and sitting on the periphery watching what was once the flagship franchise for the NHL become also rans. It was so frustrating. Whether it was talent, lack of, coaching, drafting, development, all could be debated.

2010. The Pens lost to the Canadians in the 2nd rd, most people understood after back to back trips to the finals with a Cup, and it is just a hard, hard grind for a 3rd year in a row. No team has gone to 3 straight finals in the era of the four 7 game series. But to be honest, Marc Andre Fleury was absolutely horrible those last 2 games of the series where the Pens were up 3 games to 2.

2011. The Pens lost in 7 games to the TB Lightening, despite having a 3-1 lead. This was the series without both Sid and Geno, so this year was not going to a year they were going to do anything anyways.

2012. The Flyer debacle. Lost to the Flyers in 6 brutal games. Lots of blame to go around, but Marc Andre Fleury's performance this series made Henrik Lundquist's performance this past series seem like Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy. The Pens had no business losing this series.

2013. People forget that the Pens DID make the Conference Finals. They certainly don't forget that they were swept and shut completely down by the Boston Bruins. This was the Pens stars shrinking at the very worst of times. It was Dan Bylsma refusing to change and match lines. It was Ray Shero giving away too much, and getting too much without a plan to use the players. It was a actions with good intentions without a plan and execution.

2014. Again, the Pens make the second round, go up 3-1 on the Rangers then get stoned. Whether it was the ghost of Martin St. Louis's mom or what, the Pens just stopped scoring, stopped playing, the stars wilted again. This was not on Fleury, he was more than good enough to win the series. But tt was the 3rd year in a row the core melted down, coaching had no answers, and the organization had no answers in the pipeline. This was it. Shero and Bylsma were fired. The Pens......once, the 24/7 HBO favs, star studded organization looking like multiple cups now need a fresh makeover. So they hired geriatric Jim Rutherford? Who clearly didn't seem up to the task. He hired the most passive hockey coach ever, Mike Johnston. Mike Johnston makes John Russell seem quotable.

2015. Pens barely make the playoffs on the last day. They get bounced in 5, again 87 and 71 were no shows, 58 literally was a no show as he didn't play.

In the offseason the Pens make another curious move, they acquire Phil Kessel. Career underachiever, big contract, more draft picks. They also acquired some more veterans, Matt Cullen and Eric Fehr. And as this season started, the Pens looked horrible. Crosby was doing his best Craig Adams impersonation, Letang looked awful, Dupuis retired, Kessel was underwhelming and the Pens sat in December, out of the playoffs, looking like a bloated, top heavy, over the hill, dispassionate team who was not going to make the playoffs.

Enter Mike Sullivan. Enter Trevor Dailey. Enter Carl Hagelin. Enter...the Wilkes Barre kids. Sullivan's style and philosophy was completely opposite than Mike Johnston's. Johnston preached low risk, defense first, passive game. Sullivan was a north south, attack and possess the puck mentality. Go get it. The Pens respond. Sidney Crosby all of a sudden became Sidney Crosby. Kris Letang all of a sudden becomes what everyone thought he COULD become. Kessel became Kessel. Hagelin became the perfect foil for Kessel.

The Pens started to win, score, win, score, win, win. Their advanced metrics (analytics) are off the charts now. The narrative surrounding this franchise has completely changed. The kids, Bryan Rust, Conor Sheary, Oscar Sundquist, Scott Wilson all can play. Matt Murray is acknowledged as perhaps the best young goalie in the world. Sid, Geno, Kessel, Hagelin, Letang, Maata, MAF all are signed for the foreseeable future. The window that looked closing now looks wide open again.

It is amazing how balanced this team is. As much as Shero gets trashed (I like the guy) but these are his draft picks. They just never gave these guys a chance. I often argued with Doc on these boards the Pens problems were related to Sid and Geno (and before MAF) coming up smallest in the biggest of moments. He argued they had no help and had to carry the load by themselves. I think we were both right.

I am right, your stars have to be stars. He is right, to take the pressure off of the stars, the bottom 6 have to contribute. But it is funny after 6 years or so of trying to find the answer to finding linemates for Sid and Geno, the realization came about, that they need the puck. They don't need a lot of wingers who also need the puck. They need guys who can create space. And the realization of this maybe directly related to Phil Kessel. As he needs the puck with linemates who can create space. And voila....you got 3 lines who can score and convert and dominate at times.

I don't know if they are going to beat the Caps or not. This should be a 6-7 game series. Should be great. I do know the outlook for the Pens has completely changed going forward. Their window is hardly closing. Oh sure, when Sid and Geno hang it up or start getting old, things will change, but those days are still 4-5 more years away, and Letang, Hagelin, Maata and Kessel will be here. The young guys will continue to develop. Younger guys like Daniel Sprong are on the horizon. While guys like Chris Kunitz eventually move on.

Most of all, this is a fun style to watch. Having a lineup with Sid, Geno and Letang and playing that type of hockey that Mike Johnston played was like having a Ferrari and Lamborghini and using them to plow fields. Jim Rutherford's almost every move last season was the wrong one. He got a decided "F" for his first year. This year, from hiring Sullivan to coach WB/S, trading for Kessel, drafting Sprong, trading Scuderi for Dailey, Perron for Hagelin, signing Fehr and Cullen then firing Johnston and replacing him with Sullivan, he gets an "A", and should be considered for Exec Of the Year.
 
I hope to keep this somewhat coherent, it could be long, I know what I want to say, don't know how long it will take. The last few years in Penguinland have not been fun. So much missed opportunities, empty promises and chances and sitting on the periphery watching what was once the flagship franchise for the NHL become also rans. It was so frustrating. Whether it was talent, lack of, coaching, drafting, development, all could be debated.

2010. The Pens lost to the Canadians in the 2nd rd, most people understood after back to back trips to the finals with a Cup, and it is just a hard, hard grind for a 3rd year in a row. No team has gone to 3 straight finals in the era of the four 7 game series. But to be honest, Marc Andre Fleury was absolutely horrible those last 2 games of the series where the Pens were up 3 games to 2.

2011. The Pens lost in 7 games to the TB Lightening, despite having a 3-1 lead. This was the series without both Sid and Geno, so this year was not going to a year they were going to do anything anyways.

2012. The Flyer debacle. Lost to the Flyers in 6 brutal games. Lots of blame to go around, but Marc Andre Fleury's performance this series made Henrik Lundquist's performance this past series seem like Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy. The Pens had no business losing this series.

2013. People forget that the Pens DID make the Conference Finals. They certainly don't forget that they were swept and shut completely down by the Boston Bruins. This was the Pens stars shrinking at the very worst of times. It was Dan Bylsma refusing to change and match lines. It was Ray Shero giving away too much, and getting too much without a plan to use the players. It was a actions with good intentions without a plan and execution.

2014. Again, the Pens make the second round, go up 3-1 on the Rangers then get stoned. Whether it was the ghost of Martin St. Louis's mom or what, the Pens just stopped scoring, stopped playing, the stars wilted again. This was not on Fleury, he was more than good enough to win the series. But tt was the 3rd year in a row the core melted down, coaching had no answers, and the organization had no answers in the pipeline. This was it. Shero and Bylsma were fired. The Pens......once, the 24/7 HBO favs, star studded organization looking like multiple cups now need a fresh makeover. So they hired geriatric Jim Rutherford? Who clearly didn't seem up to the task. He hired the most passive hockey coach ever, Mike Johnston. Mike Johnston makes John Russell seem quotable.

2015. Pens barely make the playoffs on the last day. They get bounced in 5, again 87 and 71 were no shows, 58 literally was a no show as he didn't play.

In the offseason the Pens make another curious move, they acquire Phil Kessel. Career underachiever, big contract, more draft picks. They also acquired some more veterans, Matt Cullen and Eric Fehr. And as this season started, the Pens looked horrible. Crosby was doing his best Craig Adams impersonation, Letang looked awful, Dupuis retired, Kessel was underwhelming and the Pens sat in December, out of the playoffs, looking like a bloated, top heavy, over the hill, dispassionate team who was not going to make the playoffs.

Enter Mike Sullivan. Enter Trevor Dailey. Enter Carl Hagelin. Enter...the Wilkes Barre kids. Sullivan's style and philosophy was completely opposite than Mike Johnston's. Johnston preached low risk, defense first, passive game. Sullivan was a north south, attack and possess the puck mentality. Go get it. The Pens respond. Sidney Crosby all of a sudden became Sidney Crosby. Kris Letang all of a sudden becomes what everyone thought he COULD become. Kessel became Kessel. Hagelin became the perfect foil for Kessel.

The Pens started to win, score, win, score, win, win. Their advanced metrics (analytics) are off the charts now. The narrative surrounding this franchise has completely changed. The kids, Bryan Rust, Conor Sheary, Oscar Sundquist, Scott Wilson all can play. Matt Murray is acknowledged as perhaps the best young goalie in the world. Sid, Geno, Kessel, Hagelin, Letang, Maata, MAF all are signed for the foreseeable future. The window that looked closing now looks wide open again.

It is amazing how balanced this team is. As much as Shero gets trashed (I like the guy) but these are his draft picks. They just never gave these guys a chance. I often argued with Doc on these boards the Pens problems were related to Sid and Geno (and before MAF) coming up smallest in the biggest of moments. He argued they had no help and had to carry the load by themselves. I think we were both right.

I am right, your stars have to be stars. He is right, to take the pressure off of the stars, the bottom 6 have to contribute. But it is funny after 6 years or so of trying to find the answer to finding linemates for Sid and Geno, the realization came about, that they need the puck. They don't need a lot of wingers who also need the puck. They need guys who can create space. And the realization of this maybe directly related to Phil Kessel. As he needs the puck with linemates who can create space. And voila....you got 3 lines who can score and convert and dominate at times.

I don't know if they are going to beat the Caps or not. This should be a 6-7 game series. Should be great. I do know the outlook for the Pens has completely changed going forward. Their window is hardly closing. Oh sure, when Sid and Geno hang it up or start getting old, things will change, but those days are still 4-5 more years away, and Letang, Hagelin, Maata and Kessel will be here. The young guys will continue to develop. Younger guys like Daniel Sprong are on the horizon. While guys like Chris Kunitz eventually move on.

Most of all, this is a fun style to watch. Having a lineup with Sid, Geno and Letang and playing that type of hockey that Mike Johnston played was like having a Ferrari and Lamborghini and using them to plow fields. Jim Rutherford's almost every move last season was the wrong one. He got a decided "F" for his first year. This year, from hiring Sullivan to coach WB/S, trading for Kessel, drafting Sprong, trading Scuderi for Dailey, Perron for Hagelin, signing Fehr and Cullen then firing Johnston and replacing him with Sullivan, he gets an "A", and should be considered for Exec Of the Year.
They never had scorers on their third and fourth lines. Now they do. Teams only had to worry about shutting down 87/71. Johnston or even Shero never trusted the youngsters in WBS. Sully knew their skills and just said go at 'em boys! Should be some interesting hockey in da Burgh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dr. von Yinzer
They never had scorers on their third and fourth lines. Now they do. Teams only had to worry about shutting down 87/71. Johnston or even Shero never trusted the youngsters in WBS. Sully knew their skills and just said go at 'em boys! Should be some interesting hockey in da Burgh.

Well to be honest, a rash of injuries hit and they were forced to play those guys. The best injury was to Kevin Porter (who?) exactly. Guys like him would always get minutes before these young players. When they finally got down because of injuries they were forced to play them and they responded.
 
I think the Johnston hire is a pass honestly. Wasn't he choice 3 on the list. He had the pedigree despite no nhl experience. The reason he gets a pass is how quickly he recognized that he wasn't a good fit and secondly during the summer camp, how great Sullivan fit in and didn't act like minor league coach, but instead acted like he belonged.

I love the makeup of this team. Daley for scuderi alone should be theft of the year. Remember when the pens wanted speed but always had some old legs or kept a Goddard or asham on the team to fight? Now they just want the fastest guys and let their superstars make these undrafted or low pick guys turn into studs.

We all know the best team in hockey doesn't always win the cup. But on paper right now is there a better team?
 
So I ate about three crows in the Rangers series after I posted the PENS shouldn't play Malkin until they dispose of the Rangers and move to the next series! I really didn't think he'd fit into the new fast " now I'm here and now I'm not " style of play. He did great and the crows didn't taste that bad barbequed since we won!

Well Fluery might be a similar issue if he returns for the next series. Do you keep him on the bench and run with the Murray horse until he stumbles and has to be shot or take a chance on Fluery.
I say ride the Murray horse as long as its running but I am looking for some more crows just in case!
 
Last edited:
I don't think Fleury is anywhere close to playing. I am becoming more and more convinced that he may not play in these playoffs.

That said, I think people need to pump the brakes on Matt Murray. He and Fleury are not equals and frankly it is not close. We are a much scarier team to face with our starting goaltender between the pipes than we are with our backup goaltender in net.

I understand the Murray is very highly regarded and that he lit up the AHL last year. However, Fleury is also highly regarded and he lit up the NHL for the past few years. He is also a cup winning goaltender whose still in his prime. How many guys on the planet can say that?

Don't get me wrong, I feel much better about this than I would have if Zatkoff were in net. I don't think we would've beaten the Rangers with our number three goaltender between the pipes for the entire series.

However, people are going too far too quickly and putting too much trust in a guy who has not yet earned it. He may indeed get there one day, but to suggest that he's already there is completely crazy.
 
Last edited:
I don't think Fleury is anywhere close to playing. I am becoming more and more convinced that he may not play in these playoffs.

That said, I think people need to pump the brakes on Matt Murray. He and Fleury are not equals and frankly it is not close. We are a much scarier team to face with our starting goaltender between the pipes than we are with our backup goaltender in net.

I understand the Murray is very highly regarded and that he lit up the AHL last year. However, Fleury is also highly regarded and he lit up the NHL for the past few years. He is also a cup winning goaltender whose still in his prime. How many guys on the planet can say that?

Don't get me wrong, I feel much better about this than I would have if Zatkoff were in net. I don't think we would've beaten the Rangers with our number three goaltender between the pipes for the entire series.

However, people are going too far too quickly and putting too much trust in a guy who has not yet earned it. He may indeed get there one day, but to suggest that he's already there is completely crazy.

True dat. But the greats all start somewhere. Wasn't putting MAF down. Just putting it out there that Murray, at least until this point, is more than some Moose Hedberg or Steve Penney flash,
 
Oh yeah, no doubt. He appears to have a bright future. It's just that we already have an outstanding goaltender in his prime and we would be crazy to not take advantage of that resource on the gamble that Matt Murray is the next Ken Dryden.
 
Who cares, I hate hockey, you guys sound like 93.7 the fan, the Penguins is all they talk about too
 
Oh yeah, no doubt. He appears to have a bright future. It's just that we already have an outstanding goaltender in his prime and we would be crazy to not take advantage of that resource on the gamble that Matt Murray is the next Ken Dryden.
I worry about the endurance of Murray. I know he is young, played pressure playoff hockey in WBS but it sure would be nice to have Fleury next in line if he should falter. Stanley Cup is a marathon, not a sprint. Zatkoff is great for one game, but he would never be able to play more than one good game in a row.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dr. von Yinzer
1.) Sullivan was a big fan of Porter. Porter tries hard and plays a 2way game. The big key was JR not trading for slow playoff "grit" like we have the past 4 years.

2.) MJ wasn't the top pick for HC...but whiteboard Willie Desjardines up in Vancouver was and he sucks too.

3.) The fact that Fleury is still having post concussion symptoms and the medical staff allows him to go on the ice and take shots baffles me. Where did they get these team doctors...MedExpress?

That being said, when Fleury us healthy, he's going back between the pipes. He's the goalie the players choose to ride with.
 
I don't think Fleury is anywhere close to playing. I am becoming more and more convinced that he may not play in these playoffs.

That said, I think people need to pump the brakes on Matt Murray. He and Fleury are not equals and frankly it is not close. We are a much scarier team to face with our starting goaltender between the pipes than we are with our backup goaltender in net.

I understand the Murray is very highly regarded and that he lit up the AHL last year. However, Fleury is also highly regarded and he lit up the NHL for the past few years. He is also a cup winning goaltender whose still in his prime. How many guys on the planet can say that?

Don't get me wrong, I feel much better about this than I would have if Zatkoff were in net. I don't think we would've beaten the Rangers with our number three goaltender between the pipes for the entire series.

However, people are going too far too quickly and putting too much trust in a guy who has not yet earned it. He may indeed get there one day, but to suggest that he's already there is completely crazy.
I see what you are saying Doc but to just casually dismiss Murray as a backup goaltender like you did in your second paragraph doesn't give Murray his justice....Kid is a stud
 
I am not trying to dismiss Murray. I am as excited about him and his future as anyone. His emergence as a potential franchise goaltender is a very big deal and could be a bit of a game changer.

I am just saying that he is not the first goaltender to light up the AHL and excelling in the minor-league's is not the same as excelling in the big leagues.

Marc-Andre Fleury, on the other hand, has proven himself as an elite goaltender in the best league in the world, and he has won the Stanley Cup, and he is still an elite player. That resume is nothing to sneeze at even though many, for some reason, seem intent to do so.

Let me put it another way: the Penguins were founded in 1967 and during their entire existence they have had two franchise goaltenders: Marc-Andre Fleury and Tom Barrasso. That is TWO franchise goaltenders in 50 years.

Comparatively, the Philadelphia Flyers, our cross state rivals, haven't had a franchise goaltender since Ron Hextall played for them in the late 80s and early 90s. Oh, they've had all kinds of stud prospects that were guaranteed to change their fortunes, but at the end of the day, for whatever reason it never happened. They too have had just two franchise goalies in their entire 50 year history: Hextall and Bernie Parent.

I don't want to get too in the weeds here but they also had a Swede named Pelle Lindberg, who may have been their third franchise goaltender, but he died in a car crash when he was very young so we will never know. The point is franchise goaltenders, like franchise quarterback's in football, are an exceedingly rare commodity and when you have one you do not dismiss it or take it for granted.

Maybe Matt Murray is our third franchise goaltender? I certainly hope so and I've obviously been encouraged by what I've seen so far from him.

But holy cow, this is a major leap of faith that people are not only willing but eager to take and I'm just not there yet.

As I said, this is likely all moot anyway as Fleury does not seem close to being able to play, so we are going to have no other choice but to ride with Murray. I'm just saying that if both guys are healthy, that is not a difficult choice - at least not yet.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: QuitCallingMeWanny
Well it says Penguins right in the post headline. why in the Hell did you open the thread. Then you bitch because it's hockey talk. What the Hell did you think was in here.[/QUOTE
Well it says Penguins right in the post headline. why in the Hell did you open the thread. Then you bitch because it's hockey talk. What the Hell did you think was in here.
pantherlair not penguinlair
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT