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OT: Rutherford wheeling and dealing already...

J

JD1976

Athletic Director
Jan 23, 2005
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Pens get Kasperi Kapanen back from Toronto along with two others for a 1st rounder in 2020, Evan Rodrigues and 2 minor leaguers.

You may recall Kapanen was sent to the Leafs in the Kessel deal. He will make $3.2mm the next 2 seasons.

He has great speed and tools, but has evaporated in the playoffs.

No first rounder for the Pens until the 2022 draft.
 
SoufOaklin4Life said:
I don’t disagree but we keep giving up assets without much to show for it the last 2 seasons
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I would prefer to keep the picks, but the Penguins aggressiveness in the college free agent market has and will continue to offset the loss of draft picks.
 
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SoufOaklin4Life said:
Other than the 1 we used on drafting him, right ?
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Right. He's averaged 13 goals. But also let's consider he was what, the 22nd pick in a middling draft This is supposedly one of the deeper drafts.

So they traded down....and gave up one of their top prospects and an asset and took on salary where they have little cap room. So yeah.....you want to counter?
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Right. He's averaged 13 goals. But also let's consider he was what, the 22nd pick in a middling draft This is supposedly one of the deeper drafts.

So they traded down....and gave up one of their top prospects and an asset and took on salary where they have little cap room. So yeah.....you want to counter?
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No
I said above this was dumping picks to keep a player we traded away
 
SoufOaklin4Life said:
No
I said above this was dumping picks to keep a player we traded away
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It's just a mindblowing trade. What do the Pens need more than anything?
1) 3rd Line Center
2) Defensemen
3) Young Prospects

This addresses none of these. I mean, the 15th pick for Kasperi Kapenen is like trading the 15th pick for Robbie Fabry.....or....Conor Sheary.

It's a fireable offense in my eyes. This guy has gone off the rails and all he is doing is making bad trade after bad trade, chasing them, like a bad, degenerate gambler who is betting just to make bets.
 
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I don't want people to get too hung up on trading the #1 in my evaluation of "terrible". I mean, if say the Canucks wanted to trade JT Miller or the Senators say trading you Thomas Chabot, well yeah you probably make that deal. Think about it, the Pens gave up essentially Jason Zucker for this pick. Zucker scored 21 goals this year, and 21 goals the year before and 33 goals the year before that. Kapenen scored 40 goals...the past 3 years. I can even see this deal if Rutherford was able to attack Nick Bjugstad or Jack Johnson off their hands. But no.

It is just a horrible trade.
 
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Someone needs to take the wheel from Rutherford. He has been flat out bad since the second Cup win.
 
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Burgh15 said:
Someone needs to take the wheel from Rutherford. He has been flat out bad since the second Cup win.
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That’s what Boomer Gordon said on NHL Radio today. Gave the trade an F. Said Dubas and Shanahan had to be texting last night saying “are we really going to get away with this trade?” Also said it’s time to take the keys away from Rutherford.
 
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JD1976 said:
That’s what Boomer Gordon said on NHL Radio today. Gave the trade an F. Said Dubas and Shanahan had to be texting last night saying “are we really going to get away with this trade?” Also said it’s time to take the keys away from Rutherford.
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I love how the local hockey intelligentsia is trying to justify the trade. Again, trading FOR Kapenen is not wrong. TRADING A #1 FOR him on its own is wrong. Throwing in Hallander, without anything else in return and/or not attaching a Jack Johnson or Nick Bjugstad's salary to it is just horrible. I don't care if that makes the Pens a better team next year. It was way, way, way too much.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
I love how the local hockey intelligentsia is trying to justify the trade. Again, trading FOR Kapenen is not wrong. TRADING A #1 FOR him on its own is wrong. Throwing in Hallander, without anything else in return and/or not attaching a Jack Johnson or Nick Bjugstad's salary to it is just horrible. I don't care if that makes the Pens a better team next year. It was way, way, way too much.
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This is EXACTLY it. Getting Kapenen is not the problem. Rutherford is just horrible at getting value for the assets he's giving up. The turning point for me is when he went directly against the philosophy that won the Penguins two straight Cups with skill and speed when he traded a first-round pick for Ryan Reaves. It's been downhill since then. He doesn't maximize cap dollars signing guys like Johnson and Tanev to expensive deals and gives away premium draft picks for bottom-six type players.
 
Rutherford following same pattern from Carolina days. Brought a cup then threw away tons of picks, gutting the team.

so we gave away a #1 for an middling winger. Way to get younger.
 
Joe the Panther Fan said:
If anyone thought that the Penguins were going to be able to avoid crashing hard when this "era" is over this trade should finally put that notion to rest.

When it gets bad, it is going to get really, really bad.
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As it should be - bring it on . However you want to have some solid defensive and goalie prospects at least in your system before you start getting these high picks, so you have some players developing as your new stars enter the League.

So given we don't have those prospects, or are likely to be getting them soon, it is indeed looking like a hard crash. One a new GM will have to start from scratch with.

Sure better nail that hire...
 
CougarClaws said:
As it should be - bring it on . However you want to have some solid defensive and goalie prospects at least in your system before you start getting these high picks, so you have some players developing as your new stars enter the League.

So given we don't have those prospects, or are likely to be getting them soon, it is indeed looking like a hard crash. One a new GM will have to start from scratch with.

Sure better nail that hire...
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Well that’s been the Penguins pattern throughout its history. Lose spectacularly, win Cups and contend for 12-15 years, lose spectacularly again, etc.

There is no doubt Rutherford isn’t the man for a rebuild.
 
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As long as the Penguins have Burkle and Lemieux as owners and their is a salary cap , I don't see the Penguins coming to a hard crash.
This isn't pre 2005.

Giving up the 15th pick sucks but its hardly a guarantee at that spot.
 
Burgh15 said:
This is EXACTLY it. Getting Kapenen is not the problem. Rutherford is just horrible at getting value for the assets he's giving up. The turning point for me is when he went directly against the philosophy that won the Penguins two straight Cups with skill and speed when he traded a first-round pick for Ryan Reaves. It's been downhill since then. He doesn't maximize cap dollars signing guys like Johnson and Tanev to expensive deals and gives away premium draft picks for bottom-six type players.
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Jim Rutherford has traded #1 picks for the following players:
David Perron
Ryan Reaves
Derek Brassard
Jason Zucker
Kasperi Kapanen

Of course, he gave up Kapanen and another #1 pick for Phil Kessel, but that is Phil Kessel. Kessel and Marian Hossa for #1 pick and prospects are justifiable. The guys above I am not so sure.

Rutherford is giving away dollar bills and getting 50 cents back.

What have we saw from the team the past two playoff series. A team easily pushed out on the perimeter, no traffic in front of the net, not grit in the corners, winning battles, being clogged up in the neutral zone. The playbook is out on how to beat this team. So how does this trade change this?
 
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FieldHouse12 said:
As long as the Penguins have Burkle and Lemieux as owners and their is a salary cap , I don't see the Penguins coming to a hard crash.
This isn't pre 2005.

Giving up the 15th pick sucks but its hardly a guarantee at that spot.
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Lather rinse and repeat. What you said may be true in a single year, but using that logic 7 of 8 last drafts is dumb. Especially when you look at the return.
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Jim Rutherford has traded #1 picks for the following players:
David Perron
Ryan Reaves
Derek Brassard
Jason Zucker
Kasperi Kapanen

Of course, he gave up Kapanen and another #1 pick for Phil Kessel, but that is Phil Kessel. Kessel and Marian Hossa for #1 pick and prospects are justifiable. The guys above I am not so sure.

Rutherford is giving away dollar bills and getting 50 cents back.

What have we saw from the team the past two playoff series. A team easily pushed out on the perimeter, no traffic in front of the net, not grit in the corners, winning battles, being clogged up in the neutral zone. The playbook is out on how to beat this team. So how does this trade change this?
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In fairness to JR, he did flip a 6th round pick and get a guy who looks like a 1st rounder in John Marino. That is the one thing that gives me hope in all of this — the Pens scout the NCAA very well and have been able to make up for their lack of draft capital. They will need to do more to continue to mitigate the loss of top picks.
 
CougarClaws said:
As it should be - bring it on . However you want to have some solid defensive and goalie prospects at least in your system before you start getting these high picks, so you have some players developing as your new stars enter the League.

So given we don't have those prospects, or are likely to be getting them soon, it is indeed looking like a hard crash. One a new GM will have to start from scratch with.

Sure better nail that hire...
Click to expand...
The problem is.......things have changed since then. First off, you have to be well timed, not every #1 overall is a Lemieux or Crosby and not every top 5 pick is a Jagr or Malkin.

Now you have a lottery. You had a lottery in the Sid/Geno era. People may forget that the Pens LOST a lottery to the Caps who picked Ovi. But that year, the 2nd pick was a guy who would be the #1 overall in probably 19 out of 20 years. So even losing the lottery the Pens still won.

But you know who the 2nd and 3rd picks were after Crosby in 2005? Bobby Ryan and............................Jack Johnson. Now, even finishing last, it much, much harder to still pick #1 overall. I believe only 1 team who finished last the past 5 years retained that pick. So there are no longer guarantees if there is a franchise player out there and you have the worst record, you are going to get him.

Also, in another post in another thread yesterday I remarked in seeing all of these young guys who I don't know much about (and some I obviously do) playing really well in the playoffs. Against us, Nick Suzuki and Jespari Kotkienami for the Canadians. The Isles with Barzal, Beuvillier, Nelson, Canes with the fantastic Sebastian Aho and Andre Svechnikov, the Canucks with Brock Boesner, Elias Petterson and Quinn Hughes, Daniel Tuchs of Vegas, Dallas's fabulous Miro Heskinen, Colorado's Cale Makar, Boston's Jake Debrusk, David Pastrnak, Charlie McAvoy, all of these have something in common. They were first round picks.

So having found money like John Marino or Jake Guentzel is great, still the elite players in the NHL, are 1st rd picks, even moreso than the NFL.
 
JD1976 said:
In fairness to JR, he did flip a 6th round pick and get a guy who looks like a 1st rounder in John Marino. That is the one thing that gives me hope in all of this — the Pens scout the NCAA very well and have been able to make up for their lack of draft capital. They will need to do more to continue to mitigate the loss of top picks.
Click to expand...
Well as Joe stated above (and many others)....there won't be a time when they can do this. They will crash and burn. The thing is, a) will the next GM be able to rebuild and b) will their very top picks be years where the top picks are a Ryan Nugent Hopkins or Nail Yakupov, or even top 5 like a Ryan Whitney or Jack Johnson, or will there be a Crosby, a MacKinnon, a Makar??
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
I love how the local hockey intelligentsia is trying to justify the trade. Again, trading FOR Kapenen is not wrong. TRADING A #1 FOR him on its own is wrong. Throwing in Hallander, without anything else in return and/or not attaching a Jack Johnson or Nick Bjugstad's salary to it is just horrible. I don't care if that makes the Pens a better team next year. It was way, way, way too much.
Click to expand...

THIS!!!
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
The problem is.......things have changed since then. First off, you have to be well timed, not every #1 overall is a Lemieux or Crosby and not every top 5 pick is a Jagr or Malkin.

Now you have a lottery. You had a lottery in the Sid/Geno era. People may forget that the Pens LOST a lottery to the Caps who picked Ovi. But that year, the 2nd pick was a guy who would be the #1 overall in probably 19 out of 20 years. So even losing the lottery the Pens still won.

But you know who the 2nd and 3rd picks were after Crosby in 2005? Bobby Ryan and............................Jack Johnson. Now, even finishing last, it much, much harder to still pick #1 overall. I believe only 1 team who finished last the past 5 years retained that pick. So there are no longer guarantees if there is a franchise player out there and you have the worst record, you are going to get him.

Also, in another post in another thread yesterday I remarked in seeing all of these young guys who I don't know much about (and some I obviously do) playing really well in the playoffs. Against us, Nick Suzuki and Jespari Kotkienami for the Canadians. The Isles with Barzal, Beuvillier, Nelson, Canes with the fantastic Sebastian Aho and Andre Svechnikov, the Canucks with Brock Boesner, Elias Petterson and Quinn Hughes, Daniel Tuchs of Vegas, Dallas's fabulous Miro Heskinen, Colorado's Cale Makar, Boston's Jake Debrusk, David Pastrnak, Charlie McAvoy, all of these have something in common. They were first round picks.

So having found money like John Marino or Jake Guentzel is great, still the elite players in the NHL, are 1st rd picks, even moreso than the NFL.
Click to expand...

True you kind of have to get lucky to get a Crosby, Malkin, Jagr, Lemieux, Ovechkin, McDavid, Lefleur, Lindros, etc...

However, you are practically guaranteed a great player with the 2nd pick.

2nd Pick 2008 - 2018:
  • 08) D Drew Doughty
  • 09) D Victor Hedman
  • 10) C Tyler Seguin
  • 11) W Gabriel Landeskog
  • 12) D Ryan Murray
  • 13) C Aleksander Barkov
  • 14) D Sam Reinhart
  • 15) C Jack Eichel
  • 16) W Patrik Laine
  • 17) C Nolan Patrick
  • 18) W Andrei Svetchnikov
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Jim Rutherford has traded #1 picks for the following players:
David Perron
Ryan Reaves
Derek Brassard
Jason Zucker
Kasperi Kapanen

Of course, he gave up Kapanen and another #1 pick for Phil Kessel, but that is Phil Kessel. Kessel and Marian Hossa for #1 pick and prospects are justifiable. The guys above I am not so sure.

Rutherford is giving away dollar bills and getting 50 cents back.

What have we saw from the team the past two playoff series. A team easily pushed out on the perimeter, no traffic in front of the net, not grit in the corners, winning battles, being clogged up in the neutral zone. The playbook is out on how to beat this team. So how does this trade change this?
Click to expand...

Zucker was worth a 1st. Perron got us an essential peice on 2 Cup Teams. But the rest I agree, and the pattern is old-school pre-Lemieux Pens.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Well as Joe stated above (and many others)....there won't be a time when they can do this. They will crash and burn. The thing is, a) will the next GM be able to rebuild and b) will their very top picks be years where the top picks are a Ryan Nugent Hopkins or Nail Yakupov, or even top 5 like a Ryan Whitney or Jack Johnson, or will there be a Crosby, a MacKinnon, a Makar??
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Well they MUST keep their 2022 first rounder. Some experts are already pegging it as one of the all-time drafts. Not sure who or what that means, but that’s what the Canadian media that I follow have to say.
 
CougarClaws said:
True you kind of have to get lucky to get a Crosby, Malkin, Jagr, Lemieux, Ovechkin, McDavid, Lefleur, Lindros, etc...

However, you are practically guaranteed a great player with the 2nd pick.

2nd Pick 2008 - 2018:
  • 08) D Drew Doughty
  • 09) D Victor Hedman
  • 10) C Tyler Seguin
  • 11) W Gabriel Landeskog
  • 12) D Ryan Murray
  • 13) C Aleksander Barkov
  • 14) D Sam Reinhart
  • 15) C Jack Eichel
  • 16) W Patrik Laine
  • 17) C Nolan Patrick
  • 18) W Andrei Svetchnikov
Click to expand...
08 Yes.
09 Yes
10. Good player, not great
11. Good player, not great
12. Meh. He is at best the 3rd best Dman (more like the 4th on Columbus)
13. Yes
14. Meh....
15. Yes, but not as great as once though
16. Yes
17. Illness, could be a real bust
19. Too early, but definitely on a trajectory.

But there are no Malkin's here. Like I said, many cases you have a Bobby Ryan to a Sidney Crosby. A Pat Falloon to an Eric Lindros. Looking back, the drafts have seemed to get alot better. Look back at the 2012 draft, which was supposed to be fairly deep, it was not good at all.

What is funny is the 2006 draft, Eric Johnson (Avs) and Jordan Staal went #1 and #2. The next 3? Jonathan Toews, Niklas Backstrom and Phil Kessel. All three much more successful and accomplished players than the first two picks.

Still my point is, I don't mind trading #1's when you are in a win now mode. But they should be more valued, and I think Rutherford hasn't always used them wisely and undervalued these assets or overvalued the assets in return.
 
FieldHouse12 said:
Giving up the 15th pick sucks but its hardly a guarantee at that spot.
Click to expand...

It's not necessarily about giving up the 15th pick, it's about what they're getting in return. Trade the pick or draft a guy and use the premium asset to move in a big deal like they did for Kessel. Trading quality assets for minor parts has to stop.

recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Of course, he gave up Kapanen and another #1 pick for Phil Kessel, but that is Phil Kessel. Kessel and Marian Hossa for #1 pick and prospects are justifiable. The guys above I am not so sure.

Rutherford is giving away dollar bills and getting 50 cents back.
Click to expand...

These are exactly the types of deals you save your top picks and prospects for. The return is too poor far too often and the Pens could probably find comparable complementary pieces in free agency without giving anything up.
 
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GMJR is Al Davis at the end. Everybody’s lined up to make a deal with him.
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
08 Yes.
09 Yes
10. Good player, not great
11. Good player, not great
12. Meh. He is at best the 3rd best Dman (more like the 4th on Columbus)
13. Yes
14. Meh....
15. Yes, but not as great as once though
16. Yes
17. Illness, could be a real bust
19. Too early, but definitely on a trajectory.

But there are no Malkin's here. Like I said, many cases you have a Bobby Ryan to a Sidney Crosby. A Pat Falloon to an Eric Lindros. Looking back, the drafts have seemed to get alot better. Look back at the 2012 draft, which was supposed to be fairly deep, it was not good at all.

What is funny is the 2006 draft, Eric Johnson (Avs) and Jordan Staal went #1 and #2. The next 3? Jonathan Toews, Niklas Backstrom and Phil Kessel. All three much more successful and accomplished players than the first two picks.

Still my point is, I don't mind trading #1's when you are in a win now mode. But they should be more valued, and I think Rutherford hasn't always used them wisely and undervalued these assets or overvalued the assets in return.
Click to expand...
Erik Johnson was selected by the Blues.
 
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