OT: What to do with Tomlin, FWIW

[Chairman Moe]

In a recent poll (Should Tomlin return) I voted "no". But it certainly feels like the Steelers are going to extend his contract. Should that happen I suggest no more than four years; kind of like they gave Cowher in the early 2000's. Expectation is to be a serious Super Bowl contender by 2027; have new coordinators in all facets; get rid of the excessive salary cap players; decide on who you want to build the offense around (QB); make better draft choices and FA signings; tall order, for sure. And if that means a 5-12 season, followed by a 8-9 season, followed by a 12-5 season, fine. The current pattern isn't working

 

[MorningCoffee13]

Here is what will happen.

Ken is QB1. Mason knows he has few more opportunities so he will accept the first offer he gets in free agency to be a QB2 or perhaps a QB1 for some team that is desperate. Will he let the Steelers counter offer. Doubt it.

Steelers then have to find a veteran QB somewhere. That guy will come in and compete for a chance at QB1 but unlikely to get it. They won’t draft a QB because they aren’t high enough to get anyone of value.

A new OC comes in from somewhere out there and probably does some great things and helps Ken get better. The running game is better than solid so no worries there. Definitely need a damn Center so however they find that they will.

The offense will be better next year. No real choice.

The defense will be a different look with injured guys coming back and some older guys no longer getting the looks. The defense may not be better but they will likely be younger.

If they finished above 500 and made the playoffs with the team that was on the field at end of year then they likely have a great chance to do it again.

 

[Upg bobcat]

And if that means a 5-12 season, followed by a 8-9 season, followed by a 12-5 season, fine. The current pattern isn't working

The majority wanted Tomlin's head after he went 10-7. There's no way this city would accept him back after a 5-12 season, all hell would break loose.

 

[Burgh15]

Tomlin needs a staff overhaul like Narduzzi just had. Players play the game, but a quality coaching staff can impact the success of a team. They need a staff who understands an NFL offense and also a modern offense. I get some sense that they are maybe tired of not having postseason success and need real change to happen. I don't know if Tomlin will actually change his approach, but he needs to.

 

[TD_6082]

Tomlin needs a staff overhaul like Narduzzi just had. Players play the game, but a quality coaching staff can impact the success of a team. They need a staff who understands an NFL offense and also a modern offense. I get some sense that they are maybe tired of not having postseason success and need real change to happen. I don't know if Tomlin will actually change his approach, but he needs to.

We don't really know how Narduzzi's overhaul is going to play out.

I don't really see the need for wholesale changes. Tbh, following up the retirement of a HOF QB with 19 wins in the next 2 years isn't bad.

I think he was slow to bounce Canada after last season, but in the grand scheme of things, that's really not a big deal.

This subject is weird, because in the national media, and probably most places outside of Pittsburgh, Tomlin is seen as untouchable

 

[ShipofFools]

The problem isn't only Mike Tomlin himself. The problem is the image and facade that has been created by current and formers players along with the media that presents Tomlin as a bigger version of what he really isn't. And that is a producer of quality, competitive teams poised to contend for a Super Bowl most years. Even when they are not. He is viewed as a players coach that competes.

The Rooneys have bought into the consistency of non losing seasons at the risk of changing course to someone that may fail in the short term of doing that. Somebody without that pedigree. They embrace the idea of stability and the call of the HOF induction most feel Tomlin will get. Moving on from Tomlin is a risk they are too afraid to make image wise, regardless of recent failures. More success is just around the bend...that is the Steeler way they probably feel.

Unfortunately the Rooneys have no feel for the shelf life of a coach because they know Tomlin will get a dozen calls from other teams the day he is available for employ, and that is a fear that they are unwilling to face. Being judged by outsiders living in the past and stroking the Tomlin image of success that has long been overdone.

 

[pittbb80]

Here is what will happen.

Ken is QB1. Mason knows he has few more opportunities so he will accept the first offer he gets in free agency to be a QB2 or perhaps a QB1 for some team that is desperate. Will he let the Steelers counter offer. Doubt it.

Steelers then have to find a veteran QB somewhere. That guy will come in and compete for a chance at QB1 but unlikely to get it. They won’t draft a QB because they aren’t high enough to get anyone of value.

A new OC comes in from somewhere out there and probably does some great things and helps Ken get better. The running game is better than solid so no worries there. Definitely need a damn Center so however they find that they will.

The offense will be better next year. No real choice.

The defense will be a different look with injured guys coming back and some older guys no longer getting the looks. The defense may not be better but they will likely be younger.

If they finished above 500 and made the playoffs with the team that was on the field at end of year then they likely have a great chance to do it again.

Tend to agree with this. If you listened to Tomlins presser and take him at face value it would appear that he recognized that there are course changes he needs to make particularly on the staff. Now I’m not sure I totally believe him but IMO he has to clean house on the offensive side of the ball with the OC OL and Wr coaches at the very least

I don’t think a guy like cousins or baker or any of the top Qbs will be available. So agree whomever they bring in won’t be able to unseat KP. Rudy is their best bet for legit completion and as I’ve said before if the money is even he’s leaving.

They need to shore up the OL. Center is the most glaring need for sure and maybe sign a tackle in Fa. Need more DL help another DB like Porter but LB is a huge need.

So I think another season like this year is very possible or even slightly better. The question is can they avoid the terrible losses they’ve had under Tomlin. IMO if he cleans house and works to change the culture (see Najis discipline comment) then maybe they can.

As an aside I’d also consider trading both knuckle head WRs. While Pickens has talent he’s a cancer They need team first guys

 

[Burgh15]

We don't really know how Narduzzi's overhaul is going to play out.

I don't really see the need for wholesale changes. Tbh, following up the retirement of a HOF QB with 19 wins in the next 2 years isn't bad.

I think he was slow to bounce Canada after last season, but in the grand scheme of things, that's really not a big deal.

This subject is weird, because in the national media, and probably most places outside of Pittsburgh, Tomlin is seen as untouchable

You never know how any coaching changes will turn out. However, when you have something that isn't working, it's time for a change.

19 years for two years is fine if the team hasn't been stuck in the middle for 5 of the past 6 years. As we see far too often when they play the NFL's best, there is a sizable difference in QB talent and coaching. I would get a new OC and DC. The OL is constantly confused and I would look to a new OL coach. Given the inconsistent effort and attitude of the top receivers, I'd make a move there as well. Faulker and many of the other defensive coaches, particularly Curry and what he did with the new ILBs this year have been solid.

Not firing Canada after Ben's year, or even Pickett's rookie year, has been huge. Everyone is saying we need to see Pickett with a real NFL OC. He's now heading into his third season and he looks bad when you do the eye test, but you don't really know until you get a competent offense. Yeah, I wouldn't say that wasn't a big deal at all.

 

[TD_6082]

You never know how any coaching changes will turn out. However, when you have something that isn't working, it's time for a change.

19 years for two years is fine if the team hasn't been stuck in the middle for 5 of the past 6 years. As we see far too often when they play the NFL's best, there is a sizable difference in QB talent and coaching. I would get a new OC and DC. The OL is constantly confused and I would look to a new OL coach. Given the inconsistent effort and attitude of the top receivers, I'd make a move there as well. Faulker and many of the other defensive coaches, particularly Curry and what he did with the new ILBs this year have been solid.

Not firing Canada after Ben's year, or even Pickett's rookie year, has been huge. Everyone is saying we need to see Pickett with a real NFL OC. He's now heading into his third season and he looks bad when you do the eye test, but you don't really know until you get a competent offense. Yeah, I wouldn't say that wasn't a big deal at all.

It's not like the Steelers would have been contending for championships with any other OC given their QB situation. I'm sure the offense would be better, but it would still be a work in progress.

The OL has been playing better, btw.

 

[pittdan77]

The OL has been playing better, btw.

Really helps when you call plays that are a bit more dynamic. Play action on first down once in a while, helps.

 

[pittbb80]

Really helps when you call plays that are a bit more dynamic. Play action on first down once in a while, helps.

Well that and playing crap defenses like Seattle and Cinci. The run game was not near as effective against Baltimore and Buffalo. But it does appear that even in those games the pass pro was not near as bad as it has been and that likely is due to the things you mentioned

 

[pittdan77]

Well that and playing crap defenses like Seattle and Cinci. The run game was not near as effective against Baltimore and Buffalo. But it does appear that even in those games the pass pro was not near as bad as it has been and that likely is due to the things you mentioned

I thought the play calling was too conservative against Buffalo, to be honest. They should have been attacking more on first down. I sort of write Baltimore off because you should win against the JV team without too much effort.

 

[PittPharm2002]

The majority wanted Tomlin's head after he went 10-7. There's no way this city would accept him back after a 5-12 season, all hell would break loose.

The city doesn’t matter
Steeler fans are mostly idiots

 

[Fk_Pitt]

The city doesn’t matter
Steeler fans are mostly idiots

A high % of them live in the city and have no teeth.

 

[redbyrds]

This team will Tomlinism going forward with winning seasons and either just miss the playoffs or out by 2 touchdowns in the 1st round, until they get a real QB1.

Either gonna get lucky with a QB or have the balls to go against the 1980's 'Steeler Way' and trade multiple #1 picks to get to the top of the draft and select a franchise QB.

 

[President Stache]

In a recent poll (Should Tomlin return) I voted "no". But it certainly feels like the Steelers are going to extend his contract. Should that happen I suggest no more than four years; kind of like they gave Cowher in the early 2000's. Expectation is to be a serious Super Bowl contender by 2027; have new coordinators in all facets; get rid of the excessive salary cap players; decide on who you want to build the offense around (QB); make better draft choices and FA signings; tall order, for sure. And if that means a 5-12 season, followed by a 8-9 season, followed by a 12-5 season, fine. The current pattern isn't working

I dont understand Pittsburghers and wanting to fire coaches all the time.

Tomlin is considered across the country as a great coach. He is obviously a great coach watching his press conferences and his record. I think all the time how really great coordinators become head coach and it is not a great fit, because they lack management and personnel skills, but are great at Xs and Os. Tomlin is not that, he is a great manager, and needs those coordinators to support.

 

[Jeffburgh]

Not a huge MT fan. He's really good at a superficial leadership level and with process. But, he isn't a strong strategic thinker or football mind. He has a clear pattern of hiring people who fit in when he REALLY needs more capable people under him to make them more competitive.

Given the most other teams want qb upgrades, they are not going to do better than MR in FA.

Try to resign him and let him and KP work it out. Scout the college kids and be open to drafting another one if they really like him.

Best they can do right now, imo.

 

[Chairman Moe]

ry to resign him (MR) and let him and KP work it out. Scout the college kids and be open to drafting another one if they really like him.

Best they can do right now, imo.

This sounds like a Josh Dobbs 2.0 plan ...

Unfortunately, it will probably be exactly what they do

 

[President Stache]

This sounds like a Josh Dobbs 2.0 plan ...

Unfortunately, it will probably be exactly what they do

Did Pickett have good stats? No... Is he Mahomes? No But, does he win? Yes

I dont understand the shittiness toward Pickett. The guy was 7-2 this year starting and finishing games, and ended 7-1 last year. 14-3! Better than any QB in the league. And he did this with what was the 29th ranked defense playing on the other side of him when he played this year, and last year without TJ Watt playing! You are going to actually tell me, if Minkah and Watt and whoever else we can upgrade to on the defense side, and adding Kenny another weapon on offense, that we would not be good next year as is? Of course we would be. The guy is a winner, and he will improve. He definitely deserves another year at the helm

 

[Jeffburgh]

This sounds like a Josh Dobbs 2.0 plan ...

Unfortunately, it will probably be exactly what they do

It takes a while to get the next guy.

 

[Chairman Moe]

Did Pickett have good stats? No... Is he Mahomes? No But, does he win? Yes

I dont understand the shittiness toward Pickett. The guy was 7-2 this year starting and finishing games, and ended 7-1 last year. 14-3! Better than any QB in the league. And he did this with what was the 29th ranked defense playing on the other side of him when he played this year, and last year without TJ Watt playing! You are going to actually tell me, if Minkah and Watt and whoever else we can upgrade to on the defense side, and adding Kenny another weapon on offense, that we would not be good next year as is? Of course we would be. The guy is a winner, and he will improve. He definitely deserves another year at the helm

Stache, I never said that Pickett should not be given a chance; not sure where that was inferred in my comments. FTR, KP should be - for his and the team's benefit - the #1 QB, and anything short of an injury in pre-season, be under center on the first game of the 2024 NFL season

Now, that said, it would not surprise me if the Steelers discuss (pre-draft) some options for their QB if Rudolph agrees to a new contract. There are a lot of interesting/desirable QB's in this year's draft. Anything is possible. My original message was posted prior to Tomlin's press conference yesterday, so it was purely speculatory. I think we all know that MT is coming back, like it or not

 

[PittPharm2002]

A high % of them live in the city and have no teeth.

Our experiences at Steeler games has been substantially different

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Our experiences at Steeler games has been substantially different

Well yeah. The people I’m referring to can’t afford tickets.

 

[Parkview57]

Really the Rooney's should be looking at Kaepernick.

 

[Burgh15]

I dont understand Pittsburghers and wanting to fire coaches all the time.

Tomlin is considered across the country as a great coach. He is obviously a great coach watching his press conferences and his record. I think all the time how really great coordinators become head coach and it is not a great fit, because they lack management and personnel skills, but are great at Xs and Os. Tomlin is not that, he is a great manager, and needs those coordinators to support.

They like winning in the playoffs, something Tomlin has only done 4 times in 17 years. It's not to say he's not a good coach, he is. Sometimes they need a new vision to advance as a franchise. This team has been stale for 6 or 7 years.

Did Pickett have good stats? No... Is he Mahomes? No But, does he win? Yes

I dont understand the shittiness toward Pickett. The guy was 7-2 this year starting and finishing games, and ended 7-1 last year. 14-3! Better than any QB in the league. And he did this with what was the 29th ranked defense playing on the other side of him when he played this year, and last year without TJ Watt playing! You are going to actually tell me, if Minkah and Watt and whoever else we can upgrade to on the defense side, and adding Kenny another weapon on offense, that we would not be good next year as is? Of course we would be. The guy is a winner, and he will improve. He definitely deserves another year at the helm

Pickett is 7-2 because he needs an unreal effort by the defense every week to hold opponents to under 17 points because if they score more the Steelers wouldn't have a chance. They've had top-10 scoring defenses the past two years and some of the worst scoring offenses. Pickett doesn't need Peyton Manning stats, but he has to do a better job leading scoring drives.

 

[bayardstreet]

1. Pickett only played one full game with the new coordinator / play caller set up. He did well. My guess is he would have beat Cincy and Seattle just as Rudolph did.

I still have a problem with Tomlin who by all credible sources was stomped on by Rooney with respect to firing Canada. Rooney fired Canada. Tomlin wanted to keep him. Imagine the final record if Tomlin had rode out the season with Canada. Probably 8-9 with many staff getting fired.

Beside the 4 pillars of leadership……..They being Visionary, Activator, Relationship Builder and Trust, I only see Tomlin as a relationship builder. What do you all think?

Finally, what’s most admired about a leader by other leaders. At the top of the list or near the top is ability to identify talent and select talent. He isn’t strong in that category. Right behind talent evaluator is ability to own up to mistakes and correct them. As in making a bad hire and then getting rid of the bad hire instead of hanging on with him or her and trying to make them better. He is a big epic fail with respect to correcting his mistakes. Of course that’s the ego in him.

I would have let him go because he just isn’t the type of coach who can get the Steelers back to winning playoff games. His resume says the same

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Finally, what’s most admired about a leader by other leaders. At the top of the list or near the top is ability to identify talent and select talent. He isn’t strong in that category.

And yet he's pretty much universally admired by the other leaders in his field.

 

[pittbb80]

I thought the play calling was too conservative against Buffalo, to be honest. They should have been attacking more on first down. I sort of write Baltimore off because you should win against the JV team without too much effort.

Agreed on Buffalo. Not enough play action on first down. But you know the keep it close and hope for an explosive to win it late is the Tomlin way. Being more aggressive early could lead to a game changing turnover.

 

[President Stache]

They like winning in the playoffs, something Tomlin has only done 4 times in 17 years. It's not to say he's not a good coach, he is. Sometimes they need a new vision to advance as a franchise. This team has been stale for 6 or 7 years.


Pickett is 7-2 because he needs an unreal effort by the defense every week to hold opponents to under 17 points because if they score more the Steelers wouldn't have a chance. They've had top-10 scoring defenses the past two years and some of the worst scoring offenses. Pickett doesn't need Peyton Manning stats, but he has to do a better job leading scoring drives.

No Pickett isnt... the defense has sucked in his games. As I said, the Steelers were 29th in the NFL in total defense after week 12, when he got hurt. Only 3 teams were worse than the Steelers.

Steelers won because Pickett did not turn over the ball and he had over a 100 qbr in the 4th quarter

 

[Burgh15]

No Pickett isnt... the defense has sucked in his games. As I said, the Steelers were 29th in the NFL in total defense after week 12, when he got hurt. Only 3 teams were worse than the Steelers.

Steelers won because Pickett did not turn over the ball and he had over a 100 qbr in the 4th quarter

Sucked in his games? The defense allowed 15 PPG in Pickett's 14 wins. They've held their opponents to 20 points or less 18 times in Pickett's 24 starts. The 22nd ranked offense this season and 20th last season averaged more than 20 PPG.

By comparison, Pickett has led the Steelers to score 20 or more points in 11 of 24 starts. In Pickett's starts, the Steelers have been held to under 14 points 9 times.

The Steelers ranked 26th (2022) and 28th (2023) in scoring offense while ranking 10th (2022) and 6th (2023) in scoring defense.