OT: Will Orioles get to Nashville before the Pirates?

[Saboteur II]

I make no apologies on this topic. Metro Pittsburgh is not a major league market now and will be less so as time goes on.
You can’t continue to lose population and keep all your luxuries.
I love the Pirates…my first love.
But we all know the reality. Nutting doesn’t care enough and he is making money doing nothing.
He will eventually sell and he will make much more money.
The Orioles are in a bad way with open talk of moving to Nashville.
Were I Nutting, I would sell now and beat the Orioles to the punch.

Get the Mayflower moving vans ready, Baltimore isn’t a Major League town anymore

It’s just a matter of time before the Orioles ship out as the Colts did decades ago

deadspin.com

 

[Upg bobcat]

The Pirates last won a world championship in 1979. I was born in 1982, turning 40 this year. I have not seen a world series title in my lifetime thus far, and I'm starting to fear that I will not see one before I die.

 

[ERICCARTMAN]

The Burgh is a major league town. It is just in transition regarding demographics. More than enough young people and young families to support them.
The problem is Nutsack; everyone knows it. He is too comfortable with fireworks, bobbleheads and a few large "cash cow" concerts a year. He's doing very well financially without worrying about shelling out big money to field a winning team.

 

[HailToPitt725]

I get the point you’re trying to make, but Pittsburgh’s not there yet. I think there’s several cities that would relocate before the Pirates. If you’re going off population alone, (IIRC) Allegheny County reversed a multi-decade population decline in the latest census. Meanwhile, Baltimore lost nearly six percent of its population from 2010. I’d use county statistics for them but they’re independent city.

Alas, it’s a moot point because I don’t see Nutting selling the family cash cow anytime soon.

 

[jivecat]

I agree....the demographics of Baltimore and Pittsburgh are vastly different. Pirates are not going anywhere and I would be shocked if the O's moved. The Maryland area cannot even sing the National Anthem without referencing the "O's". I think the Orioles are trying to flex their muscles to the city for a tax abatement, parking, or some other monetary benefit.

 

[ThePanthers]

Yeah, I don't see either team moving, at least in our lifetimes.

There are many other teams that are on the list above us.

 

[ThePanthers]

BTW, deadspin is pooh, and just clickbait. "just wait and see!"

 

[9nationalchampionships]

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

The problem is supporting nutjob by attending games, watching games & buying merchandise. The solution is the exact opposite. I realize it is a nice ballpark and the only major sporting event that is financially doable for a family but you have to resist to the point that he is chocked off and forced to sell.

MLB is fine with the Pirates being a farm system for the big budget teams and wants nutjob to keep his mouth shut on the unfairness of MLB without salary caps.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I hate when people quote Pittsburgh's population as the actual population of the city. It is one of the smallest cities area wise of any major city. Most cities have an area equivalent of Allegheny County. Hence they are "bigger" in population than Pittsburgh. But you have to go with metro area and Pittsburgh, while not exactly growing, is right there with St Louis, Cleveland, Cincy, etc...and bigger than KC and Milwaukee. So yes, it is a "major league city".

 

[pittdan77]

Attendance is never a great way to evaluate the health of a fan base. In that regard, you could argue that the Steelers are a franchise in decline. Oriole fans, in general, are about as fair weather as they come. The crowds at Camden Yard were never about baseball as much as they were about going to socialize. I've been to games there where we've had to ask people to sit down or move their conversations to the concourse because they were standing in the seating area BS-ing and in danger of taking a line drive to the back of their head. In Pittsburgh, a lot of Pirate fans still cling to the belief that the team could become a winner again, soon, or just know that the owner is trash and want to talk about it. This message board is evidence of that. You don't see that sort of passion in Baltimore.

 

[Dan1911]

Pittsburgh is a major-league town. Its owner is not. That being said, if the choice is between keeping an inferior team with an inferior owner who won't sell vs letting them go and poaching another team down the road with a new ownership group, I'd be for cutting this clown loose once the lease is up.

 

[Dan1911]

Send the Pirates to Nashville and bring the Orioles to PIT. Rivalries with Boston, NY, Tampa, Cleveland, Toronto preferable to St Lou, Mil, Cin, Mia, Mets, etc. (ChiCubs/ATL/Phi aren't bad).

 

[lilspainishflea]

Man I fear for Baltimore without Camden Yards. It's been an anchor in that city for almost 30 years now. Go a few blocks away and things get dicey, fast. And I say this as an overall fan of the city. They really need to keep baseball there so Inner Harbor doesn't collapse.

 

[cbpitt2]

If I'm not mistaken Pittsburgh was the first MLB city to draw more than a million fans while finishing in last place. (Tied with the Philadelphia for last place in 1947).

 

[CJsE]

I make no apologies on this topic. Metro Pittsburgh is not a major league market now and will be less so as time goes on.
You can’t continue to lose population and keep all your luxuries.
I love the Pirates…my first love.
But we all know the reality. Nutting doesn’t care enough and he is making money doing nothing.
He will eventually sell and he will make much more money.
The Orioles are in a bad way with open talk of moving to Nashville.
Were I Nutting, I would sell now and beat the Orioles to the punch.

Get the Mayflower moving vans ready, Baltimore isn’t a Major League town anymore

It’s just a matter of time before the Orioles ship out as the Colts did decades ago

deadspin.com

Both metros are bigger than Nashville.

If Nutting and the Orioles' owner combined their payrolls into a single team, they'd still only have the 22nd ranked payroll in MLB.

Both owners are scumbags of the highest degree.

 

[CJsE]

Man I fear for Baltimore without Camden Yards. It's been an anchor in that city for almost 30 years now. Go a few blocks away and things get dicey, fast. And I say this as an overall fan of the city. They really need to keep baseball there so Inner Harbor doesn't collapse.

Yeah, but the only way to keep them will be with $600 million in stadium bonds. They could do a lot with that money to prop up the area instead.

 

[razzaba]

Baseball has got to be the most boring sport to watch.

 

[Franb]

Pittsburgh is a major-league town. Its owner is not. That being said, if the choice is between keeping an inferior team with an inferior owner who won't sell vs letting them go and poaching another team down the road with a new ownership group, I'd be for cutting this clown loose once the lease is up.

Regardless of who the owner happens to be, Pittsburgh will always be a small market team, which means that it will never be able to compete financially with the big boys. Nutting is not even trying, but even with an owner who is, the likelihood of winning here is not very good.

 

[PittPharm2002]

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

The problem is supporting nutjob by attending games, watching games & buying merchandise. The solution is the exact opposite. I realize it is a nice ballpark and the only major sporting event that is financially doable for a family but you have to resist to the point that he is chocked off and forced to sell.

MLB is fine with the Pirates being a farm system for the big budget teams and wants nutjob to keep his mouth shut on the unfairness of MLB without salary caps.

Tickets aren’t how he’s making money -
It’s tv revenue
Your protest is meaningless

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Tickets aren’t how he’s making money -
It’s tv revenue
Your protest is meaningless

Watching means tv and revenues are based on viewers. Nice try

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

Baseball has got to be the most boring sport to watch.

Especially when our team basically now gets no-hit every week!

 

[PittPharm2002]

Watching means tv and revenues are based on viewers. Nice try

It’s not ratings dependent
Those are multiple year contracts with the mlb distributed to the teams

you sure you studied economics ?!!!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I could probably find this out but too lazy to look. But what are the Pirates ratings lately and how do they compare to year's past.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

It’s not ratings dependent
Those are multiple year contracts with the mlb distributed to the teams

you sure you studied economics ?!!!

Educate us and don’t be such a pain in the arse

 

[PittPharm2002]

Educate us and don’t be such a pain in the arse

I just did

How Major League Baseball Could Crack $11 Billion In Revenues In 2022

The business of Major League Baseball will increase in 2022 and reach pre-pandemic levels that should exceed the record revenues seen in 2019.

www.forbes.com

 

[Dointhatrag]

I think Charlotte will get one before Nashville

 

[CJsE]

Tickets aren’t how he’s making money -
It’s tv revenue
Your protest is meaningless

Pirates bring in $25-30 million per year in tickets and concessions. That's not chump change.

It’s not ratings dependent
Those are multiple year contracts with the mlb distributed to the teams

you sure you studied economics ?!!!

That's also not true.
20-30% of Pirates revenue is from local television and radio contracts.

So you have written off roughly half of the Pirates' revenue as non-existent.

 

[Dointhatrag]

2022 attendance is really bad. Shocked at San Diego in top 4 this year and no American League team until #5.

RK	TEAM	GMS	TOTAL	AVG
1​	LA Dodgers	28​	1,344,431​	48,015​
2​	St. Louis	33​	1,272,972​	38,574​
3​	Atlanta	34​	1,280,285​	37,655​
4​	San Diego	30​	1,100,068​	36,668​
5​	NY Yankees	32​	1,172,706​	36,647​
6​	LA Angels	35​	1,115,247​	31,864​
7​	Chicago Cubs	33​	1,048,425​	31,770​
8​	Houston	26​	825,554​	31,752​
9​	Colorado	32​	1,005,611​	31,425​
10​	NY Mets	25​	776,848​	31,073​
11​	Boston	28​	867,629​	30,986​
12​	San Francisco	32​	987,832​	30,869​
13​	Toronto	30​	878,440​	29,281​
14​	Philadelphia	34​	990,891​	29,143​
15​	Milwaukee	27​	766,782​	28,399​
16​	Texas	31​	742,219​	23,942​
17​	Chicago White Sox	30​	710,361​	23,678​
18​	Seattle	27​	638,170​	23,635​
19​	Washington	32​	678,077​	21,189​
20​	Minnesota	33​	650,886​	19,723​
21​	Detroit	33​	650,620​	19,715​
22​	Arizona	32​	609,414​	19,044​
23​	Baltimore	29​	472,840​	16,304​
24​	Cincinnati	29​	471,545​	16,260​
25​	Kansas City	33​	515,389​	15,617​
26​	Cleveland	22​	320,793​	14,581​
27​	Tampa Bay	34​	467,154​	13,739​
28​	Pittsburgh	30​	372,781​	12,426​
29​	Miami	29​	322,694​	11,127​
30​	Oakland	30​	248,501​	8,283​

 

[Dointhatrag]

Attendance and game times over the years

Year	Time	Attend/G
2022​	3:07​	25,108​
2021​	3:11​	18,651​
2020​	3:06​
2019​	3:10​	28,203​
2018​	3:04​	28,659​
2017​	3:08​	29,908​
2016​	3:04​	30,131​
2015​	3:00​	30,349​
2014​	3:07​	30,345​
2013​	3:04​	30,451​
2012​	3:00​	30,806​
2011​	2:56​	30,228​
2010​	2:54​	30,066​
2009​	2:55​	30,218​
2008​	2:55​	32,382​
2007​	2:55​	32,696​
2006​	2:51​	31,306​
2005​	2:49​	30,816​
2004​	2:51​	30,075​
2003​	2:49​	27,831​
2002​	2:56​	28,006​
2001​	2:58​	29,881​
2000​	3:01​	29,377​
1999​	2:57​	28,887​
1998​	2:52​	29,030​
1997​	2:56​	27,876​
1996​	2:55​	26,509​
1995​	2:54​	25,021​
1994​	2:57​	31,256​
1993​	2:52​	30,964​
1992​	2:54​	26,529​
1991​	2:54​	27,002​
1990​	2:51​	26,044​
1989​	2:50​	26,198​
1988​	2:49​	25,237​
1987​	2:52​	24,708​
1986​	2:48​	22,589​
1985​	2:44​	22,265​
1984​	2:39​	21,255​
1983​	2:40​	21,593​
1982​	2:40​	21,161​
1981​	2:38​	19,041​
1980​	2:38​	20,434​
1979​	2:35​	20,748​
1978​	2:30​	19,332​
1977​	2:32​	18,406​
1976​	2:29​	16,151​
1975​	2:29​	15,403​
1974​	2:29​	15,437​
1973​	2:30​	15,496​
1972​	2:27​	14,506​
1971​	2:29​	15,063​
1970​	2:34​	14,787​
1969​	2:32​	13,992​
1968​	2:33​	14,217​
1967​	2:37​	15,005​
1966​	2:36​	15,592​
1965​	2:36​	13,827​
1964​	2:34​	13,087​
1963​	2:30​	12,647​
1962​	2:38​	13,186​
1961​	2:37​	13,212​
1960​	2:38​	16,109​
1959​	2:34​	15,463​
1958​	2:31​	14,138​
1957​	2:33​	13,777​
1956​	2:32​	13,352​
1955​	2:31​	13,466​
1954​	2:30​	12,882​
1953​	2:26​	11,599​
1952​	2:25​	11,810​
1951​	2:23​	13,015​
1950​	2:21​	14,105​

 

[CJsE]

2022 attendance is really bad. Shocked at San Diego in top 4 this year and no American League team until #5.

RK	TEAM	GMS	TOTAL	AVG
1​	LA Dodgers	28​	1,344,431​	48,015​
2​	St. Louis	33​	1,272,972​	38,574​
3​	Atlanta	34​	1,280,285​	37,655​
4​	San Diego	30​	1,100,068​	36,668​
5​	NY Yankees	32​	1,172,706​	36,647​
6​	LA Angels	35​	1,115,247​	31,864​
7​	Chicago Cubs	33​	1,048,425​	31,770​
8​	Houston	26​	825,554​	31,752​
9​	Colorado	32​	1,005,611​	31,425​
10​	NY Mets	25​	776,848​	31,073​
11​	Boston	28​	867,629​	30,986​
12​	San Francisco	32​	987,832​	30,869​
13​	Toronto	30​	878,440​	29,281​
14​	Philadelphia	34​	990,891​	29,143​
15​	Milwaukee	27​	766,782​	28,399​
16​	Texas	31​	742,219​	23,942​
17​	Chicago White Sox	30​	710,361​	23,678​
18​	Seattle	27​	638,170​	23,635​
19​	Washington	32​	678,077​	21,189​
20​	Minnesota	33​	650,886​	19,723​
21​	Detroit	33​	650,620​	19,715​
22​	Arizona	32​	609,414​	19,044​
23​	Baltimore	29​	472,840​	16,304​
24​	Cincinnati	29​	471,545​	16,260​
25​	Kansas City	33​	515,389​	15,617​
26​	Cleveland	22​	320,793​	14,581​
27​	Tampa Bay	34​	467,154​	13,739​
28​	Pittsburgh	30​	372,781​	12,426​
29​	Miami	29​	322,694​	11,127​
30​	Oakland	30​	248,501​	8,283​

26-man Payroll
1​	Los Angeles Dodgers	$218,366,848​
2​	New York Yankees	$205,626,272​
3​	Philadelphia Phillies	$198,815,532​
4​	San Diego Padres	$154,915,151​
5​	New York Mets	$152,224,162​
6​	Los Angeles Angels	$151,786,868​
7​	Atlanta Braves	$145,564,833​
8​	Houston Astros	$140,939,824​
9​	Toronto Blue Jays	$140,559,228​
10​	St. Louis Cardinals	$128,729,280​
11​	Boston Red Sox	$125,888,557​
12​	San Francisco Giants	$123,412,900​
13​	Chicago White Sox	$121,232,629​
League Average	$109,882,464​
14​	Texas Rangers	$107,882,882​
15​	Detroit Tigers	$103,092,569​
16​	Colorado Rockies	$102,548,755​
17​	Milwaukee Brewers	$101,551,100​
18​	Minnesota Twins	$98,987,642​
19​	Chicago Cubs	$90,443,969​
20​	Cincinnati Reds	$88,104,438​
21​	Washington Nationals	$84,848,201​
22​	Seattle Mariners	$79,288,078​
23​	Kansas City Royals	$76,693,496​
24​	Arizona Diamondbacks	$74,388,646​
25​	Miami Marlins	$66,666,608​
26​	Cleveland Guardians	$60,171,084​
27​	Tampa Bay Rays	$52,009,624​
28​	Pittsburgh Pirates	$36,664,500​
29​	Oakland Athletics	$35,376,412​
30​	Baltimore Orioles	$29,693,846​

They are very, very similar.

 

[lilspainishflea]

Yeah, but the only way to keep them will be with $600 million in stadium bonds. They could do a lot with that money to prop up the area instead.

The problem is that Camden Yards is both a financial and physical anchor for Inner Harbor. It takes up 85 acres of land. That's 85 acres where people go and spend money: parking, restaurants, events (I went to a Lego festival there was I was a little kid), etc. There's very little crime. It's a safe space, an island in a rough city. And because the baseball season has at least 81 home games, that island is pretty heavily used for almost 1/4 of the entire year.

Spreading $600 million across the entire city will dilute the impact of that money. You'll get the same amount of spending but it'll be spread out and at very small businesses that don't create that physical safe space that pushes crime elsewhere. I'm also doubtful that taxpayers would agree to issue $600 million in debt for things like social services instead of a stadium, so the actual amount received by residents and businesses might be a lot smaller.

I'm usually against using public money on pro stadiums but Camden Yards and Baltimore have a really symbiotic relationship. I think that's one of the few examples where using public money on sports makes sense.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Boycott the Bucs! Never thought I would say that in my life!

 

[CJsE]

The problem is that Camden Yards is both a financial and physical anchor for Inner Harbor. It takes up 85 acres of land. That's 85 acres where people go and spend money: parking, restaurants, events (I went to a Lego festival there was I was a little kid), etc. There's very little crime. It's a safe space, an island in a rough city. And because the baseball season has at least 81 home games, that island is pretty heavily used for almost 1/4 of the entire year.

Spreading $600 million across the entire city will dilute the impact of that money. You'll get the same amount of spending but it'll be spread out and at very small businesses that don't create that physical safe space that pushes crime elsewhere. I'm also doubtful that taxpayers would agree to issue $600 million in debt for things like social services instead of a stadium, so the actual amount received by residents and businesses might be a lot smaller.

I'm usually against using public money on pro stadiums but Camden Yards and Baltimore have a really symbiotic relationship. I think that's one of the few examples where using public money on sports makes sense.

Yeah I get it and I get the importance of history, but it's an owner holding the city hostage that has no desire to put out a product that will bring any pride to the city.
I won't pretend to know the importance of the venue to the area, but with far less than $600 million you could do a lot with that space without killing that goodwill. A lot of creative people could turn that are into a market district or commercial park while maintaining much of the atmosphere.

The Ravens put out a quality product every year, they constantly make the effort to give the fans a return on their investment, but I still hesitate to find it acceptable to provide public funds to good owners that have seen their team's value rise 10-fold. Owners like Nutting and Angelos don't deserve a cent of public money.

 

[lilspainishflea]

Yeah I get it and I get the importance of history, but it's an owner holding the city hostage that has no desire to put out a product that will bring any pride to the city.
I won't pretend to know the importance of the venue to the area, but with far less than $600 million you could do a lot with that space without killing that goodwill. A lot of creative people could turn that are into a market district or commercial park while maintaining much of the atmosphere.

The Ravens put out a quality product every year, they constantly make the effort to give the fans a return on their investment, but I still hesitate to find it acceptable to provide public funds to good owners that have seen their team's value rise 10-fold. Owners like Nutting and Angelos don't deserve a cent of public money.

Hey, corporate welfare to billionaires hurts. No argument from me. Most of ya'll think I'm a communist but here I am supporting tax subsidies for a stadium lol.

Also agree with you that Nutting and Angelos are particularly loathsome so they deserve the money even less.

It's a tough situation with respect to Baltimore. Somewhere like Buffalo where the stadium is a billion miles away from downtown? Yeah, no bonds for you.

 

[pittdan77]

The Ravens put out a quality product every year, they constantly make the effort to give the fans a return on their investment

Mostly agree but the local TV ratings are pretty average for a team that's had that much success.

Demographically, Baltimore is on an island. You have two "pro" cities on either side with very little in the way of territory outside of the metro. Like, they claim Delaware or something.

 

[Burgh15]

Looking at that Tampa attendance...I could only imagine the Pirates having a team play here that good every year.

 

[Dan1911]

Looking at that Tampa attendance...I could only imagine the Pirates having a team play here that good every year.

It only takes a commitment from ownership. The pirates can't stay at the top every year, but if they tried, they could cycle through boom/bust years/eras.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Pirates bring in $25-30 million per year in tickets and concessions. That's not chump change.

That's also not true.
20-30% of Pirates revenue is from local television and radio contracts.

So you have written off roughly half of the Pirates' revenue as non-existent.

So essentially their payroll

To the actual point 70-80% of their revenue is media related via contracts -
And I bet a large portion. Of the $25-30 mil are presolds and corporate seating blocks and clubs

Protesting isn’t hurting Nutting at all
He’s making money hand over fist with the 4th worst attendance in MLB

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

How long before the As follow the Raiders to Vegas?

 

[Dan1911]

Looking at that Tampa attendance...I could only imagine the Pirates having a team play here that good every year.

It only takes a commitment from ownership. The pirates can't stay at the top every year, but if they tried, they could cycle through boom/bust years/eras.

How long before the As follow the Raiders to Vegas?

Unfortunately, they're looking at property here now and have been for almost two years. We'll be stuck subsidizing another billionaire owner and his millionaire employees.