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OT: Youth hockey coaches, parents etc.. your thoughts on this play?

USN_Panther

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This is from a U18 ice hockey game. My son is not involved in this play, but is on one of the teams. Would you allow your son to play again in this league? What would be an appropriate disciplinary measure for this hit in the US? Let me know your thoughts and I will then disclose the league's action and the extent of the injuries.

 
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This is from a U18 ice hockey game. My son is not involved in this play, but is on one of the teams. Would you allow your son to play again in this league? What would be an appropriate disciplinary measure for this hit in the US? Let me know your thoughts and I will then disclose the league's action and the extent of the injuries.


The kid obviously had a chip on his shoulder.. what happened prior ?
 
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The USA Hockey rule for charging is the following

"Charging is the action where a player takes more than two strides or travels an excessive distance to accelerate through a body check for the purpose of punishing the opponent. This includes skating or leaving one's feet (jumping) into the opponent to deliver a check, accelerating through a check for the purpose of punishing the opponent, or skating a great distance for the purpose of delivering a check with excessive force.

(a) A minor plus a misconduct or a major plus a game misconduct penalty shall be assessed for charging an opponent.

(b) A major penalty plus game misconduct penalty shall be assessed to any player who injures an opponent as a result of charging.

(e) A match penalty for attempt to injure or deliberate injury to an opponent may also be assessed for Charging."


The offensive player has the puck and is eligible to get hit. The defensive player does not elevate off the ice before the hit but it looks like he made contact to the head. There should be a penalty plus some other supplemental disciplinary call.

Based on the flags hanging from the rafters, is this game in New Zealand or Australia?
 
Well as we know in hockey, sometimes the outcome of the play dictates penalty more than the intent. I imagine it is match penalty, tossed out and suspended.
 
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Back when I was playing this was a game misconduct and a suspension. But, that was before helmets, and hits to the head could mean a long suspension.
 
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This is from a U18 ice hockey game. My son is not involved in this play, but is on one of the teams. Would you allow your son to play again in this league? What would be an appropriate disciplinary measure for this hit in the US? Let me know your thoughts and I will then disclose the league's action and the extent of the injuries.


To me it's a definite charge with a blow to the head. I'd call a match penalty and at least a game or two suspension. I played defense and checking line center, and played and checked rough, but blows to the head have no place in hockey.
 
Back when I was playing this was a game misconduct and a suspension. But, that was before helmets, and hits to the head could mean a long suspension.
How was Eddie Shore as a teammate?

I'm guessing though that because he posted this the penalty ended up being a two minute minor for cross checking...
 
This is from a U18 ice hockey game. My son is not involved in this play, but is on one of the teams. Would you allow your son to play again in this league? What would be an appropriate disciplinary measure for this hit in the US? Let me know your thoughts and I will then disclose the league's action and the extent of the injuries.


- The film is a little fuzzy just as the hit is made but it looks like a hit to the head, so I think the penalty is a "Check to the Head".

- The "Check to the Head" is severe causing what looks like a significant injury to the puck carrier and I agree that it should be a "Match Penalty" so a 5 minute major, game misconduct, and automatic suspension from practice and games until the player has a hearing from the proper committee to determine length of suspension ..... a Major penalty and game misconduct is an automatic one game suspension so Match penalties tend to be that long or longer ..... it also depends on whether it is the players 1st major/match penalty of the year or more.

- I can see why it might be considered charging but personally I don't think it was although I could be wrong ...... my reasoning is that if you look at the tape, stop it at 12 seconds where you see the two who ultimately are involved in the check transitioning up the ice very close to one another (about 3' apart) ..... go to the 15 second mark and stop the tape again where you will see that the two are actually getting farther apart with the puck carrier getting closer to the left wing boards and the defender getting closer to his goalie in the inner left wing circle (they are 20+ feet apart now and not headed to each other) ...... go one more second and stop it at the 16 second mark where you will see that the defender decides at that point to attack the puck carrier, turns left near the face-off dot and at that point goes toward the puck ...... watch the defenders skates from the time he turns at the 16 second mark to finally go toward the puck until the check is made and you will see that he never takes any strides but is gliding all the way and thus not accelerating and he never leaves the ice with his skates so I'm not convinced there is any charging but the main penalty is the check to the head.

- Just an observation ...... the puck carrier that got hurt put himself in a vulnerable position where he couldn't really defend himself well from a check ...... of course, that is not a reason to be attacked in the head like that.

- Hope the kid isn't hurt too badly (concussion/facial trauma, etc.).
 
Thanks for the input everyone.

The injured player is out of the hospital but has a severe concussion with ongoing symptoms. He will not play again this season.

This game is in NZ, following IIHF rules.

The penalty was called as boarding, 5 minutes and game misconduct. The game misconduct was upgraded to a match penalty following the game. The automatic suspension for this is 3 games. This may be increased/decreased as the disciplinary committee looks at it further. I was most concerned about how the offending player has his stick elevated way above his head (16 sec mark) then swings it down as he delivers the blow to the head. I see no legitimate hockey reason for a player to have two hands on his stick with it elevated that high in this circumstance. I thought that showed a clear intent to injure.

Would you think additional suspension or other action is warranted for these factors?
1. The team in question has had two suspensions in the first 4 games of the season for hits to the head with injury (this being the second one).
2. The previously suspended player (not the one who delivered the hit) went into the locker room of the opposing team before this game and told them that they were going "to get" the injured player.
3. After the game the coach of this team told the opposing team's coaching staff that he has no control of what his players do on the ice.

As a parent of a player on the green team, I am at a loss for what to do. I think the league needs to clean this up to ensure safety, but this team and player are recidivist offenders, so I have little confidence this will work. Other options I have considered is just pulling him out of this league, or just accepting this as risk and prepare him for an absolute bloodbath the next time these two teams play.

Goalieman, how best would this player defend himself from this? NZ plays IIHF rules that now prohibit the hit behind the play after the puck moves out. He clearly wasn't expecting this. Stop before the corner or skate through? These youth players here get very little coaching instruction on how to check or how to protect themselves. They just go out and start colliding with everyone in a reckless way.

I appreciate all of the comments as I knew there were many knowledgeable hockey fans, parents and coaches on this board.
 
Thanks for the input everyone.

The injured player is out of the hospital but has a severe concussion with ongoing symptoms. He will not play again this season.

This game is in NZ, following IIHF rules.

The penalty was called as boarding, 5 minutes and game misconduct. The game misconduct was upgraded to a match penalty following the game. The automatic suspension for this is 3 games. This may be increased/decreased as the disciplinary committee looks at it further. I was most concerned about how the offending player has his stick elevated way above his head (16 sec mark) then swings it down as he delivers the blow to the head. I see no legitimate hockey reason for a player to have two hands on his stick with it elevated that high in this circumstance. I thought that showed a clear intent to injure.

Would you think additional suspension or other action is warranted for these factors?
1. The team in question has had two suspensions in the first 4 games of the season for hits to the head with injury (this being the second one).
2. The previously suspended player (not the one who delivered the hit) went into the locker room of the opposing team before this game and told them that they were going "to get" the injured player.
3. After the game the coach of this team told the opposing team's coaching staff that he has no control of what his players do on the ice.

As a parent of a player on the green team, I am at a loss for what to do. I think the league needs to clean this up to ensure safety, but this team and player are recidivist offenders, so I have little confidence this will work. Other options I have considered is just pulling him out of this league, or just accepting this as risk and prepare him for an absolute bloodbath the next time these two teams play.

Goalieman, how best would this player defend himself from this? NZ plays IIHF rules that now prohibit the hit behind the play after the puck moves out. He clearly wasn't expecting this. Stop before the corner or skate through? These youth players here get very little coaching instruction on how to check or how to protect themselves. They just go out and start colliding with everyone in a reckless way.

I appreciate all of the comments as I knew there were many knowledgeable hockey fans, parents and coaches on this board.

- It's interesting because when I was reviewing the film and wrote the paragraph about not thinking it was a charging penalty, I did think to myself and almost wrote that it was maybe closer to a boarding call as the player from your team that got hit was about a foot or so from the boards and his head was driven into the boards but I still thought that the main penalty was a check directly to the head but I would not argue against a boarding call, the match penalty, etc.

- After the player passes the puck, he technically shouldn't be checked or it's interference but there is always that split second after the pass that the refs will allow a legal check ...... the check here was probably a little late after the pass.

- It's been a long time since my sons were involved in youth hockey but when they got to the level where checking was allowed, the coaches had to go to a seminar on checking so they could teach it properly and the players and parents watched a video on checking (what was proper and what was not) ....... then for parts of several practices checking was taught and practiced before scrimmages or games started..... even then it was a work in progress for awhile.

- As far as a player defending themselves, you always have to be prepared/expect when you have the puck and shortly after you pass it for a possible check ...... the player on your team was vulnerable because he got caught in a bad position to take a check as when you are close to the boards and a checker is coming you don't want to be facing the checker directly with your chest/stomach and also not be on the boards to brace yourself ..... you can't defend yourself in that position ....... it's a matter of best positioning the body to take the force of the check ..... generally you should rotate so that your shoulders/arm/hips are facing the oncoming checker and take the force of the hit while your opposite shoulder/arm/hips are braced against the boards with your head up .... of course, the defender was head hunting so there still may have been injury..... but you have to always be aware and protect yourself as best you can..... maybe some of these other very knowledgable posters who were forwards or defenseman can give better advice about checking then an old goalie .... LOL !

- Here is a video below from USA Hockey about some basics of checking and taking a check ...... read it, I think the part about taking a check starts at the 7:24 point and it tells some off-ice drills to practice checking and taking a check ..... maybe it will be helpful .... I believe they have some on-ice video's also but just found this one quickly ......

 
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- It's interesting because when I was reviewing the film and wrote the paragraph about not thinking it was a charging penalty, I did think to myself and almost wrote that it was maybe closer to a boarding call as the player from your team that got hit was about a foot or so from the boards and his head was driven into the boards but I still thought that the main penalty was a check directly to the head but I would not argue against a boarding call, the match penalty, etc.

- After the player passes the puck, he technically shouldn't be checked or it's interference but there is always that split second after the pass that the refs will allow a legal check ...... the check here was probably a little late after the pass.

- It's been a long time since my sons were involved in youth hockey but when they got to the level where checking was allowed, the coaches had to go to a seminar on checking so they could teach it properly and the players and parents watched a video on checking (what was proper and what was not) ....... then for parts of several practices checking was taught and practiced before scrimmages or games started..... even then it was a work in art for awhile.

- As far as a player defending themselves, you always have to be prepared/expect when you have the puck and shortly after you pass it for a possible check ...... the player on your team was vulnerable because he got caught in a bad position to take a check as when you are close to the boards and a checker is coming you don't want to be facing the checker directly with your chest/stomach and also not be on the boards to brace yourself ..... you can't defend yourself in that position ....... it's a matter of best positioning the body to take the force of the check ..... generally you should rotate so that your shoulders/arm/hips are facing the oncoming checker and take the force of the hit while your opposite shoulder/arm/hips are braced against the boards with your head up .... of course, the defender was head hunting so there still may have been injury..... but you have to always be aware and protect yourself as best you can..... maybe some of these other very knowledgable posters who were forwards or defenseman can give better advice about checking then an old goalie .... LOL !

- Here is a video below from USA Hockey about some basics of checking and taking a check ...... read it, I think the part about taking a check starts at the 7:24 point and it tells some off-ice drills to practice checking and taking a check ..... maybe it will be helpful .... I believe they have some on-ice video's also but just found this one quickly ......


That is very helpful. Thanks for that, goalieman!

I am reassured that most agree that the ref got the call right and I appreciate that the league is looking further into it.

I think that the kid who made the hit was truly trying to injure. I also think he is a dumb kid who had no idea what he was doing was this dangerous, or even that improper. I think he is just so dumb that he is dangerous. I'm not sure how many games would be required for a suspension to get a kid like this to understand dangerous play.
 
IMO if this is a pattern then the coach is clearly responsible and encouraging this behavior. The way to stop this nonsense is to suspend the coach.......and tell the team that any future flagrant violations similar to this one will result in suspension for the rest of the year........That would put a stop to it.
 
As a parent of a player on the green team, I am at a loss for what to do. I think the league needs to clean this up to ensure safety, but this team and player are recidivist offenders, so I have little confidence this will work. Other options I have considered is just pulling him out of this league, or just accepting this as risk and prepare him for an absolute bloodbath the next time these two teams play.


I am normally one of those "we all know the risk", "suck it up and deal with it", "you can't live in a bubble", Etc types.

With all of that said, if the league did not take hard action against the rouge team and those actions improved the attitude/sportsmanship of that rouge team, then my son would not be pulled out of the league but I would be sitting the next game against this rouge team. I would encourage other parents to do so also. It is one thing to accept risk, it is something entirely different when one team decides to be outlaws.
 
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I watched this a few times. Thoughts:

1. None of the injured player's teammates seemed to be all that worked up. What's up with that?
2. Any contact sport is dangerous if the league and its officials don't take definitive action against dirty play.
3. Hockey celebrates its goons. I know this is a kid's league but it's still a thing, obviously.
 
anybody who says hockey celebrates its goons is not a real hockey fan, just sayin.
 
Oh? Please, in a couple of sentences, let's see if you can legitimize Tom Wilson's penchant for dirty play.
actually I think this is a dumb topic on a football board , you cant really see what the guy did.
Hockey is a great sport , just hard to officiate.
 
- It's interesting because when I was reviewing the film and wrote the paragraph about not thinking it was a charging penalty, I did think to myself and almost wrote that it was maybe closer to a boarding call as the player from your team that got hit was about a foot or so from the boards and his head was driven into the boards but I still thought that the main penalty was a check directly to the head but I would not argue against a boarding call, the match penalty, etc.

- After the player passes the puck, he technically shouldn't be checked or it's interference but there is always that split second after the pass that the refs will allow a legal check ...... the check here was probably a little late after the pass.

- It's been a long time since my sons were involved in youth hockey but when they got to the level where checking was allowed, the coaches had to go to a seminar on checking so they could teach it properly and the players and parents watched a video on checking (what was proper and what was not) ....... then for parts of several practices checking was taught and practiced before scrimmages or games started..... even then it was a work in progress for awhile.

- As far as a player defending themselves, you always have to be prepared/expect when you have the puck and shortly after you pass it for a possible check ...... the player on your team was vulnerable because he got caught in a bad position to take a check as when you are close to the boards and a checker is coming you don't want to be facing the checker directly with your chest/stomach and also not be on the boards to brace yourself ..... you can't defend yourself in that position ....... it's a matter of best positioning the body to take the force of the check ..... generally you should rotate so that your shoulders/arm/hips are facing the oncoming checker and take the force of the hit while your opposite shoulder/arm/hips are braced against the boards with your head up .... of course, the defender was head hunting so there still may have been injury..... but you have to always be aware and protect yourself as best you can..... maybe some of these other very knowledgable posters who were forwards or defenseman can give better advice about checking then an old goalie .... LOL !

- Here is a video below from USA Hockey about some basics of checking and taking a check ...... read it, I think the part about taking a check starts at the 7:24 point and it tells some off-ice drills to practice checking and taking a check ..... maybe it will be helpful .... I believe they have some on-ice video's also but just found this one quickly ......


As a defenseman skating with the puck behind the net, you always have to be aware of someone forechecking. IMO, that’s your most vulnerable time and easiest to be injured.

Just my opinion as someone who played for 14 years, I don’t think awareness matters here. The kid (to me at least) targeted the head, and there’s no way to be prepared for that.

There’s a right and wrong way to check, then there’s an intent to hurt. Again just my opinion but if someone did that to my teammate, he wouldn’t be skating off the ice.
 
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As a defenseman skating with the puck behind the net, you always have to be aware of someone forechecking. IMO, that’s your most vulnerable time and easiest to be injured.

Just my opinion as someone who played for 14 years, I don’t think awareness matters here. The kid (to me at least) targeted the head, and there’s no way to be prepared for that.

There’s a right and wrong way to check, then there’s an intent to hurt. Again just my opinion but if someone did that to my teammate, he wouldn’t be skating off the ice.

I agree with you entirely.

In this play, the injured player was a forward skating into the offensive zone. The player delivering the hit was a forward on the opposing team.

There was no retaliation in this game. I think that is a credit to the coach of the green team who settled down the bench and holds the players accountable for their actions. Some may see that as cowardice, but there aren't many ice hockey players in NZ. Brain injuring more of them doesn't help grow the sport.

I think this player will get his at some point. There is a player or two in the league who will line him up. I think he will be fortunate if he is suspended for the rest of the season.
 
I think the official’s call was basically right. I actually don’t think that is boarding or interference and charging is called as often in hockey as three second lane violations are called in basketball. It’s basically a rule that is on the books but never enforced. However, that was a clear hit to the head — possibly with his stick. That is to say about the principal point of contact was definitely the boy in the green sweater’s head.

It looks as though he had an intent to injure the boy in the green sweater as well, but I think that’s a really slippery slope and can lead to some really bad decisions. It’s also mostly irrelevant. What you meant to do doesn’t really matter as much is what you actually did.

This is definitely a match penalty and a minimum suspension. However, I’m not sure what else anyone can do? I do think there should be a rule in youth hockey whereby if you are a coach who has multiple players suspended for acts of violence then you too must serve a suspension of some length — 10-12 games? If it were me, I’d send a very strong message that we will not tolerate this BS — especially at that level.

I honestly think we are on the cusp of coaches and/or organizations being sued for big-time damages for failing to foster a safe environment. The brain injury thing is just so debilitating that this is going to end up in a very ugly legal case for someone.
 
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Go eat a Hoagie Joe. Whatever you just said made no sense. Dont.


I'll type this really slowly, so maybe you can understand.

The fact that your favorite hockey player does not get into fights does not prove that the NHL doesn't celebrate goonery. In fact I'd say that the fact that he actually has gotten into fights a couple times kind of proves my point about what the NHL celebrates and what it doesn't.
 
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As a defenseman skating with the puck behind the net, you always have to be aware of someone forechecking. IMO, that’s your most vulnerable time and easiest to be injured.

Just my opinion as someone who played for 14 years, I don’t think awareness matters here. The kid (to me at least) targeted the head, and there’s no way to be prepared for that.

There’s a right and wrong way to check, then there’s an intent to hurt. Again just my opinion but if someone did that to my teammate, he wouldn’t be skating off the ice.

- "Butler", I totally agree with you and thanks for the post (some good points).....

- The majority of injuries in hockey are from contact between players most often during checking ...... when I first reviewed the video, I made an observation that the player who got hurt was in a very vulnerable position when he got hit (not that it was his fault) ...... directly facing the checker with his chest/abdomen and standing a foot or so from the boards put him in a dangerous position to not be able to defend himself even against a legal check (he may have been injured to a lesser extent even with a legal check in that position) ..... because he couldn't defend himself at all, the illegal head shot drove his head with maximum velocity into the glass resulting in what sounds like a bad concussion ....... I'm not sure if he had time to get in better position for the check and even if he would have, the head shot may still have caused serious injury although IMO he may have had some chance to dampen the blow of the head against the boards if he could have gotten in better position.....

- In any event, the kid that got hurt has no blame here, he did nothing wrong ...... the blame is 100% on the illegal check ....... I actually was trying to make the more general points from watching the video that you have to be aware of a possible check anytime you have the puck and just after you pass it and that there are some ways to get in position to receive a check that decrease the chances of injury ..... in this specific case, the player may not have had time to get in better position and if he could have, it may or may not have helped ....... USN_Panther said they don't teach much about checking in NZ and it sounds like maybe they should do a better job at it.
 
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I am normally one of those "we all know the risk", "suck it up and deal with it", "you can't live in a bubble", Etc types.

With all of that said, if the league did not take hard action against the rouge team and those actions improved the attitude/sportsmanship of that rouge team, then my son would not be pulled out of the league but I would be sitting the next game against this rouge team. I would encourage other parents to do so also. It is one thing to accept risk, it is something entirely different when one team decides to be outlaws.
What the hell does the red team have to do with anything?
 
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I think it should also be pointed out that the guy in the green sweater - who was ultimately the victim - starts the entire episode with attempting, but missing, a blindside hit to the boy in the yellow sweater.

That’s a key element to this entire video that no one has discussed. That would’ve ALSO been a dirty and illegal hit had he connected. That’s why the boy in the yellow sweater was so determined to enact his revenge.

I think this comes down to respect. What are we doing here? Why are people not respecting people on the ice? That is the real difference in the game. Everyone’s always looking for the next big hit and that’s fine, but a lot of times these hits are illegal or unsafe and that is definitely not fine.

Typically, when I say this, some Neanderthal fan immediately starts accusing me of wanting to watch figure skating or pond hockey – which is not what I’m saying at all. However, I am saying that we need to treat each other with respect or the game will die because it will have become too dangerous.

Look, hockey is a very old sport and it’s a very emotional support. Every single one of us has had a burr up our ass for someone because of a hit that we didn’t like. However, just because someone acted recklessly or even like a straight up a-hole, that does not give us the right to enact vigilante style revenge.

I don’t think either player was particularly respectful of the other in that admittedly difficult to follow sequence and I think the players on both teams need to be worked with to understand how to play the game in a way that is competitive and fierce but which also doesn’t unnecessarily endanger everyone on the ice.
 
Dr, Von Yinzer makes a good point that I did not notice before. After slowing it down in the beginning you can see #16 Green line up #19 Gold for a hit from the side but he missed.

#16 Green (a right handed shooter) then comes along the left side boards, makes himself vulnerable with a counter clockwise spin move and does not see #19 Gold until it is too late.

The administrators of each league must enforce the rules and instill a culture of safety.

My kids have played in both the US and Europe. Europeans usually play a more finesse style, whereas North Americans tend to play much more aggressively and implement their own form of "on ice justice".
 
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