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Piaa State Playoffs

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FordhamIII

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Aug 12, 2015
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Once again Philadelphia (district 12) dominated the state playoffs.

They won every boys classification except 5A and didn't have any teams entered in 1A.

Is the talent so much better there because of population?

Are they able to build such strong teams because of all the charter schools and liberal transfer. Lamar Stevens transfered to join Tony Carr on the team that beat Allderdice.

Not sure how the western coaches feel about this or what can be done to get better here.

In the late 60'summer and 70's the dominance was in the west. Philadelphia did not compete then I believe they didn't want to follow all the Piaa rules.

Interested in what other think the problems are and what can be done to solve them.
 
FordhamIII said:
Once again Philadelphia (district 12) dominated the state playoffs.

They won every boys classification except 5A and didn't have any teams entered in 1A.

Is the talent so much better there because of population?

Are they able to build such strong teams because of all the charter schools and liberal transfer. Lamar Stevens transfered to join Tony Carr on the team that beat Allderdice.

Not sure how the western coaches feel about this or what can be done to get better here.

In the late 60'summer and 70's the dominance was in the west. Philadelphia did not compete then I believe they didn't want to follow all the Piaa rules.

Interested in what other think the problems are and what can be done to solve them.
Click to expand...

I would be more surprised if a classification wasn't won by a Philly team. I don't understand why you are surprised. Philadelphia has great basketball talent and they have a lot of Catholic and Charter schools where the talent goes
 
FordhamIII said:
Philadelphia did not compete then I believe they didn't want to follow all the Piaa rules.
Click to expand...


They still don't follow the rules, but since all initial eligibility decisions are done at the district level they just rubber stamp all transfers no matter the reason.

For instance there is a girl who played for Neumann-Goretti in the 3A girls championship on Monday. Scored 14, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals in their title game win. A month ago she was playing at a school in Virginia. She was quoted in the newspaper when she transferred about how much the transfer was going to help her improve her basketball skills. According to the rules she should have been ineligible to play for one full year from the date of the transfer. Instead the N-G principal signed off that the transfer had nothing at all to do with basketball and the D12 committee rubber stamped her eligibility.

Basically, D12 never rules anyone ineligible for any reason. It seems to be a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" kind of thing. If I don't challenge your "illegal" transfer this year then next year you won't challenge mine. In an attempt to at least stop some of the transfers the PIAA will be voting on a rule change soon that will say that any student who transfers after their junior year will be ineligible to play in the district or state playoffs as a senior. They could play regular season games but no post-season games. It won't stop the shenanigans, but it might put a dent in them. But just a little dent.
 
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I know things are a lot different now than when I was growing up.

Everybody played, courts were full and you had to win to stay on.

Now when I drive pass courts they're empty.

Maybe the answer is to somehow getting more kids to play street ball instead of whatever electronic things their into today.
 
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I don't understand how the classification works for the Charter/Catholic schools? I watched the 3A title game because my alma mater Richland (Johnstown) was playing. Richland draws from a poplulation of about 12,000 people. It seemed that the school they were playing Neumann-Goretti was drawing from the entire city of Philadelphia--why would they also be classified just 3A?
 
Fredact said:
I don't understand how the classification works for the Charter/Catholic schools? I watched the 3A title game because my alma mater Richland (Johnstown) was playing. Richland draws from a poplulation of about 12,000 people. It seemed that the school they were playing Neumann-Goretti was drawing from the entire city of Philadelphia--why would they also be classified just 3A?
Click to expand...

Its the enrollment of your school, not the population that you can draw from.

I've always said there should be 6 classes:

4 determined by geographical boundaries (which would be public schools)

2 not determined by geographical boundaries (private, Catholic, and Charter schools).

Have a tournament of champions at the end. NJ does this.
 
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No doubt more shenanigans happens in the Private schools when compared to Public schools, however, there are also other reasons for the discrepancy.

Philadelphia has a lot of Catholic Churches, and I mean a lot. Each, or certainly every two Parishes, has a CYO team. For non-Catholics, a church community is called a Parish. In my Parish our CYO starts BB training in 1st grade. Our Parish school had about 50 children per grade and about 45 each from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade spend every Saturday during the winter being trained.

Teams were:
4th grade (they called this Rec, but it was far from Rec); and usually had two or three boys teams and two or three girls teams.

5th and 6th grade had two levels, Rec and JV, both boys and girls. The JV team was considered competitive and was taken very seriously, but don't think for a moment that the Rec team wasn't taken seriously. There was one JV team and typically two Rec teams, again both boys and girls.

7th and 8th grade also had two levels, Rec and Varsity. All 7th graders played Rec, and the best ones also played Varsity. This gave the 7th grade Varsity players extra game time and helped to develop the Rec boys and girls.

In 7th grade my son played 78 games during the season. Yes, 78 games! One of the assistant coaches was a PSU assistant who would drive down 2 or 3 days a week to coach during practice.

Oh, and a little side thing we did; the best girl players got invited to practice with the boys team. That made a huge difference in their play.

One more thing, since CYO is a Parish thing, public school children can also play. However, we found that very few of them participated beyond 4th grade.

And some wonder why Catholic schools do well?
 
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Joe the Panther Fan said:
They still don't follow the rules, but since all initial eligibility decisions are done at the district level they just rubber stamp all transfers no matter the reason.

For instance there is a girl who played for Neumann-Goretti in the 3A girls championship on Monday. Scored 14, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals in their title game win. A month ago she was playing at a school in Virginia. She was quoted in the newspaper when she transferred about how much the transfer was going to help her improve her basketball skills. According to the rules she should have been ineligible to play for one full year from the date of the transfer. Instead the N-G principal signed off that the transfer had nothing at all to do with basketball and the D12 committee rubber stamped her eligibility.

Basically, D12 never rules anyone ineligible for any reason. It seems to be a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" kind of thing. If I don't challenge your "illegal" transfer this year then next year you won't challenge mine. In an attempt to at least stop some of the transfers the PIAA will be voting on a rule change soon that will say that any student who transfers after their junior year will be ineligible to play in the district or state playoffs as a senior. They could play regular season games but no post-season games. It won't stop the shenanigans, but it might put a dent in them. But just a little dent.
Click to expand...
 
Joe the Panther Fan said:
They still don't follow the rules, but since all initial eligibility decisions are done at the district level they just rubber stamp all transfers no matter the reason.

For instance there is a girl who played for Neumann-Goretti in the 3A girls championship on Monday. Scored 14, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals in their title game win. A month ago she was playing at a school in Virginia. She was quoted in the newspaper when she transferred about how much the transfer was going to help her improve her basketball skills. According to the rules she should have been ineligible to play for one full year from the date of the transfer. Instead the N-G principal signed off that the transfer had nothing at all to do with basketball and the D12 committee rubber stamped her eligibility.

Basically, D12 never rules anyone ineligible for any reason. It seems to be a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" kind of thing. If I don't challenge your "illegal" transfer this year then next year you won't challenge mine. In an attempt to at least stop some of the transfers the PIAA will be voting on a rule change soon that will say that any student who transfers after their junior year will be ineligible to play in the district or state playoffs as a senior. They could play regular season games but no post-season games. It won't stop the shenanigans, but it might put a dent in them. But just a little dent.
Click to expand...
You're right. The PIAA allows any and all potential ineligibilities to be overthrown. They're gutless. Look at how many times the WPIAL rules players to be ineligible then the PIAA overthrows it. Too many private and Catholic Schools do whatever they damn well want to and yet still have the gull to claim they have great "programs" in spite of the fact they will go get players from anywhere and at any time. In our neck of the woods its Kennedy Catholic. In the east there are several. The public community schools are at a HUGE disadvantage.
 
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FordhamIII said:
Once again Philadelphia (district 12) dominated the state playoffs.

They won every boys classification except 5A and didn't have any teams entered in 1A.

Is the talent so much better there because of population?

Are they able to build such strong teams because of all the charter schools and liberal transfer. Lamar Stevens transfered to join Tony Carr on the team that beat Allderdice.

Not sure how the western coaches feel about this or what can be done to get better here.

In the late 60'summer and 70's the dominance was in the west. Philadelphia did not compete then I believe they didn't want to follow all the Piaa rules.

Interested in what other think the problems are and what can be done to solve them.
Click to expand...
It’s a city with 100x the black people as Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh and the surrounding areas have a woeful lack of diversity, especially African American.
 
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FordhamIII said:
Once again Philadelphia (district 12) dominated the state playoffs.

They won every boys classification except 5A and didn't have any teams entered in 1A.

Is the talent so much better there because of population?

Are they able to build such strong teams because of all the charter schools and liberal transfer. Lamar Stevens transfered to join Tony Carr on the team that beat Allderdice.

Not sure how the western coaches feel about this or what can be done to get better here.

In the late 60'summer and 70's the dominance was in the west. Philadelphia did not compete then I believe they didn't want to follow all the Piaa rules.

Interested in what other think the problems are and what can be done to solve them.
Click to expand...
Being from eastern pa. Charter schools and Philly schools are stacking the deck. A Player transferred in Midway through the season from another state to play for a team who won the state title. Of course the piaa approved the move. Happened in football 2 yrs yrs ago also. In my area the small school dream of a state title is over. Something needs to be done.
 
In my area south of Pittsburgh removing basketball hoops seems to be a huge fad right now. Hard to develop talent in these areas locally when there is not many places to even play the game. Kinda sucks.
 
millrrr said:
A Player transferred in Midway through the season from another state to play for a team who won the state title. Of course the piaa approved the move.
Click to expand...


Actually, if you are talking about the Neuman-Goretti girl, the PIAA never had the chance to approve the move. The way that the system works is that if someone transfers the principal of the schools involved are required to sign a form that says that the transfer had absolutely no athletic intent involved. Those forms are sent to the people who run the district, and if the people at the district level sign off on it the transfer is approved to play. The PIAA people ONLY get involved if either the principals won't sign off on the transfer or if the transfer is denied at the district level and the player appeals the decision. Since D12 approved the transfer the PIAA never had a chance to rule on it one way or the other.
 
JRPITT said:
In our neck of the woods its Kennedy Catholic.
Click to expand...


I don't know how many people noticed this, but at the end of the first quarter of the 1A state championship game Kennedy Catholic was leading 30-0. No, that's not a typo. At the end of the first quarter they were ahead 30-0.

Nah, nothing fishy going on with that school.
 
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Joe the Panther Fan said:
JRPITT said:
In our neck of the woods its Kennedy Catholic.
Click to expand...


I don't know how many people noticed this, but at the end of the first quarter of the 1A state championship game Kennedy Catholic was leading 30-0. No, that's not a typo. At the end of the first quarter they were ahead 30-0.

Nah, nothing fishy going on with that school.
Click to expand...

They are playing 6A next year. I mean they are getting top players from West Africa. I personally think they should be able to do that but I also think schools not designated by geographical boundaries should have their own division
 
Adrift said:
No doubt more shenanigans happens in the Private schools when compared to Public schools, however, there are also other reasons for the discrepancy.

Philadelphia has a lot of Catholic Churches, and I mean a lot. Each, or certainly every two Parishes, has a CYO team. For non-Catholics, a church community is called a Parish. In my Parish our CYO starts BB training in 1st grade. Our Parish school had about 50 children per grade and about 45 each from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade spend every Saturday during the winter being trained.

Teams were:
4th grade (they called this Rec, but it was far from Rec); and usually had two or three boys teams and two or three girls teams.

5th and 6th grade had two levels, Rec and JV, both boys and girls. The JV team was considered competitive and was taken very seriously, but don't think for a moment that the Rec team wasn't taken seriously. There was one JV team and typically two Rec teams, again both boys and girls.

7th and 8th grade also had two levels, Rec and Varsity. All 7th graders played Rec, and the best ones also played Varsity. This gave the 7th grade Varsity players extra game time and helped to develop the Rec boys and girls.

In 7th grade my son played 78 games during the season. Yes, 78 games! One of the assistant coaches was a PSU assistant who would drive down 2 or 3 days a week to coach during practice.

Oh, and a little side thing we did; the best girl players got invited to practice with the boys team. That made a huge difference in their play.

One more thing, since CYO is a Parish thing, public school children can also play. However, we found that very few of them participated beyond 4th grade.

And some wonder why Catholic schools do well?
Click to expand...
Throw in New Jersey, New York and there is aplenty in Philly. Go back to separation, let Philly play in their own all star tourney. You can recruit like them although on a smaller scale but wouldn't be fair to the kids in their school district.
 
omega said:
I would rather have us sign Stallings to a life time contract than move us closer to Philly. Winning basketball games isn't that freaking important.
Click to expand...

That wasn’t my point...the other dudes maybe.

I only asked how we could make b-ball a little more popular in pgh
 
Joe the Panther Fan said:
Actually, if you are talking about the Neuman-Goretti girl, the PIAA never had the chance to approve the move. The way that the system works is that if someone transfers the principal of the schools involved are required to sign a form that says that the transfer had absolutely no athletic intent involved. Those forms are sent to the people who run the district, and if the people at the district level sign off on it the transfer is approved to play. The PIAA people ONLY get involved if either the principals won't sign off on the transfer or if the transfer is denied at the district level and the player appeals the decision. Since D12 approved the transfer the PIAA never had a chance to rule on it one way or the other.
Click to expand...
Ok..I Know the piaa responded that everything was done correctly. Piaa really needs to be more involved with these situations because of how schools are taking advantage of the system.
 
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Joe the Panther Fan said:
They still don't follow the rules, but since all initial eligibility decisions are done at the district level they just rubber stamp all transfers no matter the reason.

For instance there is a girl who played for Neumann-Goretti in the 3A girls championship on Monday. Scored 14, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 3 steals in their title game win. A month ago she was playing at a school in Virginia. She was quoted in the newspaper when she transferred about how much the transfer was going to help her improve her basketball skills. According to the rules she should have been ineligible to play for one full year from the date of the transfer. Instead the N-G principal signed off that the transfer had nothing at all to do with basketball and the D12 committee rubber stamped her eligibility.

Basically, D12 never rules anyone ineligible for any reason. It seems to be a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" kind of thing. If I don't challenge your "illegal" transfer this year then next year you won't challenge mine. In an attempt to at least stop some of the transfers the PIAA will be voting on a rule change soon that will say that any student who transfers after their junior year will be ineligible to play in the district or state playoffs as a senior. They could play regular season games but no post-season games. It won't stop the shenanigans, but it might put a dent in them. But just a little dent.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure goretti had girls playing from out of state the last 4 yrs..
 
FordhamIII said:
Once again Philadelphia (district 12) dominated the state playoffs.

They won every boys classification except 5A and didn't have any teams entered in 1A.

Is the talent so much better there because of population?

Are they able to build such strong teams because of all the charter schools and liberal transfer. Lamar Stevens transfered to join Tony Carr on the team that beat Allderdice.

Not sure how the western coaches feel about this or what can be done to get better here.

In the late 60'summer and 70's the dominance was in the west. Philadelphia did not compete then I believe they didn't want to follow all the Piaa rules.

Interested in what other think the problems are and what can be done to solve them.
Click to expand...
The western PA publics do an amazing job. New Castle, Mars, Pine Richland, Allderdice to name a few.

If you are going to recruit at least play 4 or 5A.
 
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Didn’t read all he responses but the answer is that they have a ton of parochial and charters that recruit better than some division 1 schools... Stallings I’m looking at you. Not to mention there is more focus on hoops there than football, unlike western PA. And lastly, the PIAA is the most corrupt and trash organization that exists... they seriously make the NCAA look competent. Total joke.
 
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