There is an article in today's Post-Gazette about Pitt being a northern baseball team in a conference with largely southern schools. After discussing at great length the challenges this presents and the fact that very few northern schools have had success in the college world series, the article closes with observations by Scott Barnes that say that there have been some northern schools that have had considerable success in baseball (although not one of those schools is named) and that Pitt wants to become such a school. There seems to be a disconnect between most of what the article says and Barnes' observations at the end. Can anyone make sense of this for me?
Pitt a northern baseball team
- Thread starter New York Panther
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My feelings is that Pitt should be the best northern team. Pitt, BC, ND, and WVU are the only 4 northern teams that play in power conferences. No excuse, none whatsoever to lose college baseball players to the Big Ten. It just shouldn't happen. Its like Dixon losing basketball recruits to A10 schools and to bis credit, that didn't happen very often.
Uh yea, northern teams routinely make the NCAAT. That isnt the issue. As northern teams go, Pitt has been a mediocre "northern team," not a good one, hence their 21 year NCAAT drought.
Northern teams rarely make the CWS but ND, Kent, Indiana, and Stony Brook have made it fairly recently so its not totally impossible. But the goal isnt the CWS. Its just finish 8th to 10th in the ACC and make the NCAAT.
Yes, last year. SJU is typically decent. The Big East was typically a multi-bid mid-major league when Pitt was in it. Notre Dame, Michigan, Indiana, and Iowa were also in the NCAAs last season.
Pitt can field a competitive program. The vacuum of great college baseball programs in the Northeast is a plus, not a minus, especially when competing in one of the top two baseball power conferences.
UVA won the whole thing last year. It isn't like Charlottesville is a year-round warm weather location. You've had good programs at SJU, UConn, ND, Nebraska, Kent State, Ohio State.
Jordano did a near miraculous job keep Pitt competitive in the Big East with one of the worst facilities in Division 1 and a lack of scholarships, but maybe he has plateaued in what he can do in a true power conference.
That is what I was thinking, but how do you fire a guy that has coached 1,000 games? Is his seat hot or is Pitt satisfied with a near 500 over-all record and never even making the ACCT where 10 of the 14 teams make it? I know the ACC is one of the best baseball leagues, but all you have to do is finish 10th to make it. Will he get more years now that the team is fully funded or will the new admin seek a better result on the field?
I believe he'll get more years. He's only had two seasons with a full complement of scholarships. He'll be given a chance to build the program in the ACC.
They're renovating the Cost Center and they need to think about converting it into something more conducive to indoor baseball and softball practices if they can. It could be a bigger advantage to our Olympic sports teams since there aren't many schools with a full sized indoor football facility that has been completely abandoned by the football team. Would be nice to connect it somehow to the Pete Sports Complex and completely move baseball/softball/soccer offices to the PSC.
What is the difference between the NCAA baseball tournament and the college world series? I guess that I always thought that the CWS was just another name for the NCAAT.
NCAAT is 64 teams. Here is the format:
16 4-team double elimination tournaments.
16 winners play a Best of 3 against each other the next week.
8 winners advance to CWS, which is essentially 2 4-team double elimination tournaments with winners squaring off in a Best of 3 series.
Thanks for the explanation. Similar to the format of the NCAA hoops tournament with two differences - double elimination at each level and eight teams rather than four advance to the final round. Most interesting. But there is no NCAAT champion per se, only the CWS champion, which, in effect, seems to be the NCAA champion. Correct?
The CWS is the NCAA Baseball Tournament championship round. The CWS champion is the NCAA baseball national champion. The CWS is no more independent from the NCAA Baseball Tournament than the Final Four is from the NCAA Basketball tournament.
The only NCAA sport in which the NCAA doesn't (and has never) crowned a champion is Division 1 FBS football.
Thanks for the clarification re baseball. Regarding Division 1 FBS, hasn't this changed now that there is a playoff system?
No. The College Football Playoff crowns a champion and awards its trophy, and it is completely independent of the NCAA. The NCAA does not officially sanction it and still does not award or officially recognize a championship in FBS football.
The major polls and selectors (e.g. AP, AFCA, NFF/FWAA) also still independently crown a champion, but for all intents and purposes the CFP has now unified the titles. The NFF and FWAA joined together and have decided to automatically award the MacArthur Bowl trophy to the CFP champion. The AP and AFCA (i.e. Coaches' Poll) obviously risk losing credibility if they don't award their trophy to the CFP champion. The days of split champions is probably over, although in theory, and since 1869, anyone can name whatever national champion they want. The credibility of any particular selector or selection is a matter for debate. To settle matters of credibility, most sources turn to a historical list of "major" selectors that was compiled by some notable football historians and is published in the NCAA's official records book.
FYI, Pitt has 11 different seasons with championships coming from "major selectors" in the record book, but claims 9. Pitt essentially swaps the NCAA record book's listed 1910 Pitt title for SI's 1970 certification of Parke Davis' 1934 selection (since it used SI's certification consistently since 1970, well before the NCAA records book), and rightfully does not recognize 1980 and '81 which occurred well after the entrenchment of the two poll system in popular consciousness. Really, anything post 1950 (when the Coaches' poll started) that isn't AP, Coaches', FWAA, or NFF is really a shaky claim, although some schools to make claims based on other selectors. Before 1950, it gets murky, which is why people turn to the NCAA records book list of major selectors.
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So unlike the Final Four and the CWS, which are not independent of the NCAA, the College Football Playoff is independent. I hadn't really focused on this. Very interesting. Now that the CFP has essentially unified the titles, I wonder whether the winner of the CFP will eventually be officially recognized as the NCAA champion.
I had never heard of the other two national football championships, which Pitt does not claim.
Unless the NCAA takes over the CFP, which won't happen, it won't "officially recognize" it as an NCAA championship. It isn't an NCAA event.
For more on Pitt's national championships, go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Panthers_football#National_championships
The following table summarizes the source and totals for Pitt's national championship seasons. Blue=years that Pitt claims.
AP/Coaches' Polls (1936–present) / Two / 1937, 1976
Sports Illustrated (1967-70 study) / Eight / 1915, 1916, 1918, 1929, 1931, 1934, 1936, 1937
CFBDW (recognized) / Nine / 1910, 1915, 1916, 1918, 1929, 1931, 1936, 1937, 1976
NCAA ("major" selectors) / Eleven / 1910, 1915, 1916, 1918, 1929, 1931, 1936, 1937, 1976, 1980, 1981
CFBDW (all) / Sixteen / 1910, 1915, 1916, 1918, 1925, 1927, 1929, 1931, 1933, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1976, 1980, 1981
Total unique seasons / Seventeen / 1910, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1925, 1927, 1929, 1931, 1933, 1934, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1976, 1980, 1981
Claimed by Pitt / Nine / 1915, 1916, 1918, 1929, 1931, 1934, 1936, 1937, 1976
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If you are saying that the NCAA would not want to take over the CFP, why would it not want to award a national championship in its primary sport? Or are you saying that the CFP would not allow itself to be taken over by the NCAA?
Yes. The reason that the CFP would not allow itself to be taken over by the NCAA is because the Power 5 does not want to share money with G5 schools and lower divisions. The P5 schools generate the most money and interest and dont want to share.
It would not surprise me if the P5 do a similar thing in basketball. They could essentially start their own 64 team tournament and tell the NEC, MAAC, Patriot League, etc, we would like to invite your champion but we are keeping most of the tv revenue. You need us more than we need you.
CFP is controlled by the power 5 conferences. It is a major cash cow for them. They don't want the NCAA anywhere near it. If the NCAA tried to take it over, they'd leave (and destroy) the NCAA faster than it took the time for you to read this.
Since this is the case, I am wondering if Sean Miller Fan may be right about the P5 conferences forcing the basketball tournament away from the NCAA.
He is not.
Not unless something forces the P5 to split off from the NCAA...like major rules changes or congressional intervention. With the P5 having been granted semi-autonomy, no split is imminent in the current environment. There won't be a split just to create a new tourney.
UConn made the tourney....again. They routinely were one of the top schools in the BE along with SJU and ND. They won their new league championship, beating Houston. The ESPN announcers called them the model for how to build a NE program. They have 5 alumni playing MLB.
It can be done. It's going to take better recruiting, particularly better pitching. The poor midweek record is a direct reflection of how much our pitching staff lacked depth. A potential first round draft choice doesn't mean much if the rest of your staff is mediocre or worse. It's not like softball, where you can ride one dominating pitcher to the College World Series. Both Alabama and Georgia had one pitcher pitch every inning in their regional and super regional games and both are in the WCWS.
It can be done. It's going to take better recruiting, particularly better pitching. The poor midweek record is a direct reflection of how much our pitching staff lacked depth. A potential first round draft choice doesn't mean much if the rest of your staff is mediocre or worse. It's not like softball, where you can ride one dominating pitcher to the College World Series. Both Alabama and Georgia had one pitcher pitch every inning in their regional and super regional games and both are in the WCWS.
Hell Oregon State went back to back national champions a few years ago.......You need a great coach and hold onto him
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