Private/charters win 10/12 PIAA championships

[Sean Miller Fan]

Good article by Zeise

Paul Zeise: PIAA is selective and hypocritical when it comes to fairness and competitive balance

I’m old enough to remember all the way back to January, when PIAA director Bob Lombardi put officials from Aliquippa through the wringer at a hearing...

www.post-gazette.com

I don't know why this is so hard. Having all-star teams compete against teams who can only bring in players from a small geographic area is one of the most unfair things there is. How does a school enrollment matter when your basketball team can bring in kids literally from anywhere in the country? If the PIAA isnt going to make separate classifications for non-geographic based schools like they do in NJ, then they should make it mandatory that those schools play up 2 classes. Yea, I get that its also unfair to have a terrible 1A private school team play 3A but the WPIAL can make a weak 3A private school league and those teams can beat each other before getting crushed in the 3A playoffs. Those kids have a choice. They dont have to attend that private school if WPIAL playoff success is that important to them. 95% of kids from geographic schools dont have a choice. They attend the school because they live there.

 

[Upg bobcat]

That Lombardi guy that directs the PIAA strikes me as a horrible leader, judging by his "sour grapes" comment. I don't know why you would say that publicly.

They PIAA already pushed for and got the 6 classifications for various sports, and the justification was that it was fairer and gave more teams chances to claim state championships. I don't see why making additional classifications for the private schools is much different. Lombardi stated that he fears the PIAA would get sued, I am assuming he thinks by the religious schools claiming they are being discriminated against on the basis of religion. But it's not -- it's a separate classification for the private schools, it's more than just religious based schools, it would include the charter schools and other types of privates. Sure it would have a disparate impact on religious schools. But Lombardi defends the PIAA's competitive balance rule, which has had a disparate impact on districts with minorities (in particular, Aliquippa).

 

[Pitt_Boss]

Yeah, it's not about religious schools. It's about schools with geographic boundaries and those without geographic boundaries. Pretty simple.

Since the PIAA is a clown show, I wonder if an alternative is for schools to withdraw from the PIAA and start a new association for just public schools - Pennsylvania Public School Athletic Association or something like that.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Here's the thing....if you can punish Aliquippa, a small public school who is "playing up" already a few classes then you can force the private schools to play up.

I think it is fair. Some really small private schools like St Joseph in Natrona Heights, which only graduates 45 kids (at most) each year (that is about 22 boys), you can't expect them to play 5-6A.

You should have private based on enrollment. Or you can have some formula, if your are a local private (Catholic) school pulling from 2-4 "zip codes" well then you just have to go up one.

If you are pulling 5-10 zip codes from kids, then you have to play up 2 classes.
10 or more, Then you are 6A because you are recruiting. Schools like Central or St Joes Prep wouldn't be affected, because they are already 6A. A school like Archbishop Wood would likely go to 6A. North Catholic might even go to 6A. And so be it.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Yeah, it's not about religious schools. It's about schools with geographic boundaries and those without geographic boundaries. Pretty simple.

Since the PIAA is a clown show, I wonder if an alternative is for schools to withdraw from the PIAA and start a new association for just public schools - Pennsylvania Public School Athletic Association or something like that.

I was going to say that. That comment by Lombardi was shocking for a guy in his position. Why do these publics continue with the PIAA? Why do they need them? Leave and start your owm alphabet league. The PIAA can keep the schools that don't have geographic boundaries. But guess what will happen if the public schools threatened that?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Here's the thing....if you can punish Aliquippa, a small public school who is "playing up" already a few classes then you can force the private schools to play up.

I think it is fair. Some really small private schools like St Joseph in Natrona Heights, which only graduates 45 kids (at most) each year (that is about 22 boys), you can't expect them to play 5-6A.

You should have private based on enrollment. Or you can have some formula, if your are a local private (Catholic) school pulling from 2-4 "zip codes" well then you just have to go up one.

If you are pulling 5-10 zip codes from kids, then you have to play up 2 classes.
10 or more, Then you are 6A because you are recruiting. Schools like Central or St Joes Prep wouldn't be affected, because they are already 6A. A school like Archbishop Wood would likely go to 6A. North Catholic might even go to 6A. And so be it.

Play up 2 classes. Neuman-Goretti would be 6A. OLSH 4A. That's fair.

St. Joseph would be 3A and would be terrible but put them in a 3A league of just terrible tinu private school teams and maybe their league and get crushed in the 3A playoffs. That 3A section would be like the WPIAL equivalent of the NEC but so what

 

[pittzap]

Make all private, religious, or charter schools compete in either 4A, 5A or 6A, depending on their enrollment and surrounding population.

St. John Neumann (in my hometown of Williamsport), for example, has a tiny enrollment, but also doesn’t have a large population to pull from compared to Imhotep. Make Neumann 4A and Imhotep 6A. Neumann has a bunch of guys that should be playing at 6A Williamsport, but would rather play in A.

Neumann plays in A and has zero competition in the area. They made the state finals by destroying teams in the playoffs only to get blown out in the finals. They weren’t, talent wise, the second best team in the state. They beat one good team this season and lost to the other 2-3 good teams they played. But these tiny A public rural schools with a tiny make population ha no chance against them. They could play up in a higher classification and still be somewhat competitive. Them having 30 guys that they recruited is not the same as the public schools with 70 guys, who struggle to have 10 guys on the team.

 

[bwh05]

My question is why do these private schools even want to play in a lower classification? If you're that good then you'd think they'd want better competition and they'd move up voluntarily instead of making this an issue. Everyone knows what's going on

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

My question is why do these private schools even want to play in a lower classification? If you're that good then you'd think they'd want better competition and they'd move up voluntarily instead of making this an issue. Everyone knows what's going on

Nobody wants better competition. Coaches and parents want trophies. I see this with teams playing down or playing overage in youth sports. Its ridiculous.

 

[bwh05]

Nobody wants better competition. Coaches and parents want trophies. I see this with teams playing down or playing overage in youth sports. Its ridiculous.

Aliquippa at least has the guts to not try to play in single A. Neuman-Goretti should move up voluntarily.

 

[JRPITT]

I was going to say that. That comment by Lombardi was shocking for a guy in his position. Why do these publics continue with the PIAA? Why do they need them? Leave and start your owm alphabet league. The PIAA can keep the schools that don't have geographic boundaries. But guess what will happen if the public schools threatened that?

I have been a longtime advocate of the WPIAL dropping out of the PIAA. Establish your own set of rules/guidelines and not be at the mercy of PIAA rulings on private schools and player eligibility. If the WPIAL would have the guts to do this, other districts may follow. The real losers in the end would be the PIAA and their idiot leader Lombardi.

 

[wbrpanther]

Good article by Zeise

Paul Zeise: PIAA is selective and hypocritical when it comes to fairness and competitive balance

I’m old enough to remember all the way back to January, when PIAA director Bob Lombardi put officials from Aliquippa through the wringer at a hearing...

www.post-gazette.com

I don't know why this is so hard. Having all-star teams compete against teams who can only bring in players from a small geographic area is one of the most unfair things there is. How does a school enrollment matter when your basketball team can bring in kids literally from anywhere in the country? If the PIAA isnt going to make separate classifications for non-geographic based schools like they do in NJ, then they should make it mandatory that those schools play up 2 classes. Yea, I get that its also unfair to have a terrible 1A private school team play 3A but the WPIAL can make a weak 3A private school league and those teams can beat each other before getting crushed in the 3A playoffs. Those kids have a choice. They dont have to attend that private school if WPIAL playoff success is that important to them. 95% of kids from geographic schools dont have a choice. They attend the school because they live there.

The privates and publics had separate playoffs until 1973. The privates sued the PIAA and won. They started competing together in 1974. Since then the PIAA refuses to take the privates on in court. They are left to make up excuses as to why the system is not unfair. It became really bad when the Philly schools came in with the Catholic and Charter schools.

 

[PittPharm2002]

New Castle has a really good team and were outclassed by Imhotep
The difference is this - new castle’s d1 level athlete is being recruited by Youngstown state for Football

Imhotep has a 5 star who is being recruited by blue blood basketball powers .
And not a single new castle fan is griping - because Imhotep has so much more size , depth, and talent .

 

[Pitt_Boss]

you talked to all the New Castle fans??? impressive

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

And not a single new castle fan is griping - because Imhotep has so much more size , depth, and talent .

You know that New Castle's coach is one of the WPIAL coaches who was bitching about this over the weekend, right?

The issue isn't that Imhotep has so much more size, depth and talent. The issue is how did all that size, depth and talent end up at Imhotep.


“This is really the only level of basketball where there’s inequity,” said Blundo, who has won seven WPIAL titles. “NBA teams don’t play Division I college teams. Division I teams that have scholarships don’t play Division III teams for championship because the circumstances are different. The ability to obtain players is different. I get all that. But you have to acknowledge and handle it because it hurts kids."

 

[PittPharm2002]

you talked to all the New Castle fans??? impressive

The ones I know were angrier about the soft foul call at the end of 2ot that lost the wpial championship .

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You know that New Castle's coach is one of the WPIAL coaches who was bitching about this over the weekend, right?

The issue isn't that Imhotep has so much more size, depth and talent. The issue is how did all that size, depth and talent end up at Imhotep.


“This is really the only level of basketball where there’s inequity,” said Blundo, who has won seven WPIAL titles. “NBA teams don’t play Division I college teams. Division I teams that have scholarships don’t play Division III teams for championship because the circumstances are different. The ability to obtain players is different. I get all that. But you have to acknowledge and handle it because it hurts kids."

Maybe the NCAA should make an NIL Classification and non-NIL classification because the inequity is going to get as bad as the PIAA

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The ones I know were angrier about the soft foul call at the end of 2ot that lost the wpial championship .

That was definitely a foul. I watched it and didn't think it should have been called live but on the replay I was like, yep, it sucks it has to end that way, but it was 100% a foul

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That was definitely a foul. I watched it and didn't think it should have been called live but on the replay I was like, yep, it sucks it has to end that way, but it was 100% a foul

I didn't see it live but the following morning someone posted the clip on the web. It didn't say what the controversy was, it just said here is the call in question, so I watched it without knowing what I was "supposed" to see. My thought when I first watched it was wait, did they say that that foul didn't occur until after the buzzer, because the whistle clearly sounded before the buzzer went off.

And then I found out that people were complaining that the called the foul in the first place. I mean that surely wasn't the hardest foul in the history of basketball, but if the ref calls that with four minutes left in the first quarter everyone says, yeah, good call, and no need to commit the foul there. No one even questions whether it was a foul or not.

 

[PittPharm2002]

You know that New Castle's coach is one of the WPIAL coaches who was bitching about this over the weekend, right?

The issue isn't that Imhotep has so much more size, depth and talent. The issue is how did all that size, depth and talent end up at Imhotep.


“This is really the only level of basketball where there’s inequity,” said Blundo, who has won seven WPIAL titles. “NBA teams don’t play Division I college teams. Division I teams that have scholarships don’t play Division III teams for championship because the circumstances are different. The ability to obtain players is different. I get all that. But you have to acknowledge and handle it because it hurts kids."

Yeah I get all that
But sheesh how more complicated are we going to make high school sports

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

But sheesh how more complicated are we going to make high school sports

Part of me likes the old, romanticized notion of high school sports essentially being my neighborhood or my town against yours. But it hasn't really been that way in a long, long time.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I didn't see it live but the following morning someone posted the clip on the web. It didn't say what the controversy was, it just said here is the call in question, so I watched it without knowing what I was "supposed" to see. My thought when I first watched it was wait, did they say that that foul didn't occur until after the buzzer, because the whistle clearly sounded before the buzzer went off.

And then I found out that people were complaining that the called the foul in the first place. I mean that surely wasn't the hardest foul in the history of basketball, but if the ref calls that with four minutes left in the first quarter everyone says, yeah, good call, and no need to commit the foul there. No one even questions whether it was a foul or not.

Live, I thought, man you cant call that foul to decide the game come on, but on the replay, I thought there's no way they could have let that go uncalled. It was a clear foul, not even a question.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Live, I thought, man you cant call that foul to decide the game come on, but on the replay, I thought there's no way they could have let that go uncalled. It was a clear foul, not even a question.

Maybe because there was no contact?
Gallagher fell
Watch the bottom clip from under the hoop

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Maybe because there was no contact?
Gallagher fell
Watch the bottom clip from under the hoop

View embedded media

He got him with the body. Its a foul.

 

[PittPharm2002]

He got him with the body. Its a foul.

Except he didn’t

 

[Upg bobcat]

Except he didn’t

You can argue that a foul shouldn't have been called especially at that point in the game, but you cannot say that there is no contact. There clearly is.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You can argue that a foul shouldn't have been called especially at that point in the game, but you cannot say that there is no contact. There clearly is.

Yea, watching that angle, it does fit more into the category of could have let it go to OT. But its clearly a foul.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The problem here are not all Private schools, these recruiting dynamos, who's sports teams are as good, if not better, than its academics. Some of these private schools are truly not much different than the public schools, they are Catholic or Christian oriented taking kids mostly from a 5-7 mile radius and not necessarily the best talent.

I use this example alot, but St Joseph High in Natrona Heights and St Joes Prep in Philly are in two different stratospheres. Tiny St Joseph is a catholic schools that is capped at I think 45 kids, they don't recruit, their sports teams aren't remarkable, and kids in the same area who want a catholic education and are athletically gifted usually go to Central. St. Joes Prep is like the Alabama of PA football. Huge school who pulls from NJ, Delaware and probably 3-4 PA counties. They are completely different entities.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

The problem here are not all Private schools, these recruiting dynamos, who's sports teams are as good, if not better, than its academics. Some of these private schools are truly not much different than the public schools, they are Catholic or Christian oriented taking kids mostly from a 5-7 mile radius and not necessarily the best talent.

I use this example alot, but St Joseph High in Natrona Heights and St Joes Prep in Philly are in two different stratospheres. Tiny St Joseph is a catholic schools that is capped at I think 45 kids, they don't recruit, their sports teams aren't remarkable, and kids in the same area who want a catholic education and are athletically gifted usually go to Central. St. Joes Prep is like the Alabama of PA football. Huge school who pulls from NJ, Delaware and probably 3-4 PA counties. They are completely different entities.

I understand that. Its a good point. Most of the privates are similar to Natrona St. Joseph. But, they still have an advantage over other 1A schools. They don't have to field a roster of kids from 1 zip code. They CAN technically go anywhere for players. Yea, they probably don't but they can. In that regard, using enrollment is not the best way to divide team. St. Joseph can bring in players, technically, from anywhere in the world, while your random 1A school can only get players from 1 or 2 zip codes.

So in the SMF model, St. Joseph would play up 2 classes to 3A. But it won't feel like 3A to them because I'd make a "private school 1A section" in 3A of schools similar to St. Joseph who are not recruiting powers. So those schools will just play each other in the section. 3 qualify for the 3A playoffs then they can go lose in the 1st Round. These teams weren't winning 1A anyway if they were still 1A.