Retired numbers at Pitt

[pittpitt]

This topic was brought up in a thread about Aaron Donald, and it seems like a good topic for off-season banter. Pitt currently has 10 retired numbers, with Donald's inclusion seeming likely in 5-10 years as his NFL greatness continues. Here are my thoughts on who should have their numbers retired at Pitt, a school with far more talent in our history than most college football fans are aware.

YES: Dorsett, Fralic, and Green were all named 1st Team All-Century by SI in 1999 (we were the only school with more than 1 player in the best-22). Ditka was 2nd Team All-Century in the same article. Fitzgerald is arguably the greatest college WR of all time, and he won multiple major POY awards in his big season. Goldberg was top-3 twice for Heisman, 2x unanimous AA, was the clear leader on 2 national champs, and was #12 draft pick. May won the Outland Trophy and gave up 0 sacks for 2 consecutive years. Aaron Donald won every award possible and had dominant stats that would have been amazing for an All-American DE. May has the weakest credentials of this group, but he won the Outland so I'm putting him in (Regarding using that logic to put Antonio Bryant on the list since he won the Biletnikoff: a) the Outland covers far more players than the Biletnikoff, b) Bryant wasn't a unanimous AA, c) Bryant got no Heisman votes in 2000 [whereas 10 different players got at least one #1 vote, and 9 of them got 3 or more #1 votes], d) his stats weren't that crazy, e) 63rd overall pick).

NO: I'm going no on Covert, Schmidt, and Marino. Covert was a 1x consensus AA (never AP AA) with no awards. Schmidt is most famous for a speech he gave before an upset victory, 0x consensus AA, was the 85th draft pick, and played on Pitt teams that were a combined 10-18. Marino was a super-duper pro and played on great Pitt teams, but he has almost as many interceptions as TD's at Pitt, had all his stats beaten by Van Pelt who was behind a much worse line, 0x AA, 4th and 9th in Heisman voting, and no big awards.

Give me those 8 above, and keep the bar set at their level.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Or go to a “Ring of Honor” Taking out 18 numbers from the stock seems foolish…IMHO

 

[paulbl99]

Or go to a “Ring of Honor” Taking out 18 numbers from the stock seems foolish…IMHO

This is a bingo

Honor them , recognize their number but put it back on the field.
Ring of Honor is a great way to do it.

 

[pittpitt]

Or go to a “Ring of Honor” Taking out 18 numbers from the stock seems foolish…IMHO

I like this idea, but just to clarify retiring numbers isn't taking anything like 18 numbers out of commission. I think 11 is too many (once Donald is retired), but even still that's 3 historical guys, 6 from our '75-'83 heyday, and 2 since....we're not exactly on a path to numerical extinction.

Teams are allowed 105 players on a roster before games start, and after that it's unlimited (BYU had 123), so doubling up numbers for offense/defense is already happening in a major way everywhere -- retiring 10 numbers still gives a team 180 to use.

 

[Panther_in_Kentucky]

Or go to a “Ring of Honor” Taking out 18 numbers from the stock seems foolish…IMHO

Agree. Pitt could do so much more to recognize their great players other than retiring their numbers.
The could put the name of the great on the Jersey in small letters on the lapel. For instance 33 could have "Tony Dorsett" on the lapel. Then use it as a recruiting tool.

Similarly, for Fralic, May, Marino, Fitzgerald and in the future Revis, McCoy, Martin, etc.
Pitt has so many greats it needs to think of a better way to recognize them than simply retiring jersey's.

I wish Pitt would get some smarter people in their administration. Seriously.

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

Pitt has to retire numbers to create a buzz since it doesn't want to get its hands dirty and can't create a frenzy in the form of dominating football teams. I think it's ridiculous how many jerseys are retired and you must win a championship in order for your number to be retired. So only Dorsett and Goldberg would fall into this category. I wouldn't issue 13, 79 and 99, but all others: 1, 65 73, 75, 89 should definitely be in circulation.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Pitt has to retire numbers to create a buzz for since it doesn't want to get its hands dirty and can't create a frenzy in the form of dominating football teams. I think it's ridiculous how many jerseys are retired and you must win a championship in order for your number to be retired. So only Dorsett and Goldberg would fall into this category. I wouldn't issue 13, 79 and 99, but all others: 1, 65 73, 75, 89 should definitely be in circulation.

I like the Ring of Honor thing. As for retiring numbers, I think obviously 33 is a no brainer as is 42 and 79. I mean these guys were honored as the best of the best over a half of century. I can see 89 also with Ditka. 13, well I mean he had a 42-6 record at QB.

Ring of honor

 

[LeftCoastPanther]

I like the Ring of Honor thing. As for retiring numbers, I think obviously 33 is a no brainer as is 42 and 79. I mean these guys were honored as the best of the best over a half of century. I can see 89 also with Ditka. 13, well I mean he had a 42-6 record at QB.

Ring of honor

Yeah, not sure what I was thinking about 13, 79 and 99. Those deservingly so should be retired. So five jerseys should be retired IMO and that is all.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I think all of the guys who have had their numbers retired are well deserved. As long as the NCAA allows multiple players to wear the same number, this is a nonissue.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

Quit retiring f'in numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[pittpitt]

Dan Marino? #13! Ridiculous to say he is not deserving! The school's best QB ever, and they had 42-6 record with him at the school! Three consecutive 11-1 seasons, are you on more drugs than he was? If you're basing it on stats, look at Goldberg's stats.

A) He didn't start a handful or more of those wins, so at least start by getting the facts right.
B) That type of logic won Jason White a Heisman and would place Kellen Moore (50-3), Colt McCoy (45-8), and David Greene (42-10) among the absolute greatest college QB's of all time. Not to mention Tee Martin > Peyton Manning. Maybe you've heard of teammates.
C) Marino was a 0x All-American.
D) Marino won no national awards in college.
E) His college peak in comparison to others at his position was 2nd best for one season. Notice that the 8 I've listed all far surpassed that bar, as many of them stack up amazingly well all-time.
F) Putting Goldberg's 1,957 rushing yards into perspective: It held as Pitt's record for 40 years, he was twice a unanimous All-American for the entirety of his contributions, he earned All-Decade honors for the 30's from SI (which shows how great he was because he wasn't even one of the 3 HB's who won a Heisman from '35-'39), and those yards came primarily in 2 seasons back when national rushing leaders routinely went for less than 1000 yards (Goldberg lead the nation in '36 with 860 yards - remember he was primarily a blocking FB in '38).

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Danny had great hair!

 

[Pitt79]

If they need numbers, why not 0, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09? There's 11 more right there. and before you complain, WHO CARES how that looks?

 

[Las Panteras]

my thoughts......

1) Pitt is in an enviable position of having so many great players worthy of some type of acknowledgement.

2) retiring jerseys does bring up a conundrum here with so many candidates

3) leaving out players (as mentioned) is NOT the answer. For example.....ignoring Joe Schmidt really displays ignorance. Ask any old timer that saw him play or played with him. Schmidt was one of the greatest ever. (Frank Gifford said as much...although from their NFL days).

4) Plus......ignoring Schmidt or anyone from the past is not what a program like Pitt......with such great teams from the 30's...players like Schmidt and Goldberg......should be doing.

5) The ring of honor....while a reasonable approach.....has been copied way too often.

6) which brings me to my suggestion......

Rather than a ring of honor....and given that we already fly those banners at home games.....i say we create an area around HF where we can fly (and add) banners when needed. If Barnes was smart.....a designated area called say...."the Banners of Glory"....with bronze plaques at ground level discussing each players greatness / accomplishments AND.....merchandise stands at the entrance of this area selling jerseys of pitts great players to extract a few bucks from interested fans.

Coming back from a TV commercial break ....panning the flags and the fans before returning to game action would give Pitt a nice image boost.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

Quit retiring f'in numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

If they need numbers, why not 0, 00, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09? There's 11 more right there. and before you complain, WHO CARES how that looks?

Way back in the day (before they merged into General Braddock, which eventually merged into Woodland Hills), old North Braddock Scott HS actually used those numbers. They had 0 and 00, 1 and 01, 2 and 02, 3 and 03,and so on.

 

[Pitt79]

I never understood why there is a numbering "system" at all. now I get that the offensive line should wear numbers between 50-79, to easily identify ineligible receivers-there's a PURPOSE for that, but why should anyone else's number matter? Like why couldn't Doug Flutie wear #22 in the pros, or Larry Fitzgerald #1, or Jerome Bettis #6 to name a few? Like I also think NFL and college football ban 0 and 00, why?

 

[cbpitt2]

This topic was brought up in a thread about Aaron Donald, and it seems like a good topic for off-season banter. Pitt currently has 10 retired numbers, with Donald's inclusion seeming likely in 5-10 years as his NFL greatness continues. Here are my thoughts on who should have their numbers retired at Pitt, a school with far more talent in our history than most college football fans are aware.

YES: Dorsett, Fralic, and Green were all named 1st Team All-Century by SI in 1999 (we were the only school with more than 1 player in the best-22). Ditka was 2nd Team All-Century in the same article. Fitzgerald is arguably the greatest college WR of all time, and he won multiple major POY awards in his big season. Goldberg was top-3 twice for Heisman, 2x unanimous AA, was the clear leader on 2 national champs, and was #12 draft pick. May won the Outland Trophy and gave up 0 sacks for 2 consecutive years. Aaron Donald won every award possible and had dominant stats that would have been amazing for an All-American DE. May has the weakest credentials of this group, but he won the Outland so I'm putting him in (Regarding using that logic to put Antonio Bryant on the list since he won the Biletnikoff: a) the Outland covers far more players than the Biletnikoff, b) Bryant wasn't a unanimous AA, c) Bryant got no Heisman votes in 2000 [whereas 10 different players got at least one #1 vote, and 9 of them got 3 or more #1 votes], d) his stats weren't that crazy, e) 63rd overall pick).

NO: I'm going no on Covert, Schmidt, and Marino. Covert was a 1x consensus AA (never AP AA) with no awards. Schmidt is most famous for a speech he gave before an upset victory, 0x consensus AA, was the 85th draft pick, and played on Pitt teams that were a combined 10-18. Marino was a super-duper pro and played on great Pitt teams, but he has almost as many interceptions as TD's at Pitt, had all his stats beaten by Van Pelt who was behind a much worse line, 0x AA, 4th and 9th in Heisman voting, and no big awards.

Give me those 8 above, and keep the bar set at their level.

The Pitt media guide lists Schmidt as an All-American in 1952 and Marino as an All-American in 1981 (link below) but I understand your point. I don't think what a player does in the pros should influence whether or not his college football uniform gets retired. If Tony Dorsett, Hugh Green, or Mike Ditka, etc., didn't play a down in the NFL, I still would feel their Pitt uniform should still be retired. Overall, I agree with your yes and no selections on uniform retirement.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools...to_pdf/2015-16/misc_non_event/PittHistory.pdf

 

[pittpitt]

The Pitt media guide lists Schmidt as an All-American in 1952 and Marino as an All-American in 1981

The "All-America" designation is tricky and thrown around far too much because there are like a million places that name a team. Thankfully the NCAA has tried to bring some clarity to the issue for when they use the term, and here is that clarity:
1) The NCAA recognizes the AA teams selected by 5 sources: AP, AFCA, FWAA, SN, WCFF (although this list has changed a little over time).
2) The NCAA names someone a consensus AA if they appear on 3+ of those 5.
3) The NCAA names someone a unanimous AA if they appear on all 5.
(Explanation)

It's nice that Pitt--and every school--acknowledges all of their players who ever get any AA designation, from these 5 or any of the several other sources, but when the NCAA talks about an AA, they specifically mean a consensus AA since that means the majority of the most legit sources named them as the very best.

Here is how this then all shakes out for some Pitt players:
1) James Conner was named an AA by 1 source in 2014, the AFCA. Not to be a pooper, but the AFCA named 3 RB's (and 12 offensive players total) to their first-team, the only source to do so. Tevin Coleman and Melvin Gordon were the 2 1st-team RB's on every other list, and both were 1st team on the AFCA as well. Conner was an AA in the luckiest of fashions.
2) Joe Schmidt was named an AA by 1 source in 1952, the International News Service (not 1 of the recognized sources).
3) Dan Marino was named an AA by 1 recognized source in 1981 (AFCA, tied 1st-team with Jim McMahon). He was named AA by 3 other sources, none of them recognized. McMahon was 1st-team AA on all of the recognized sources, including AFCA.
4) Tony Dorsett was a unanimous AA in 1976, but was not even consensus in his other 3 AA years (although he didn't earn 1st-team AA from any source in '74, so he isn't a 4x AA by any definition), meaning the NCAA considers him a 1x AA. I found this odd.
5) Hugh Green delivers the best AA resume of any Pitt player: unanimous in '79 and '80, and consensus in '78.
6) Here are Pitt's unanimous All-Americans from Marshall Goldberg to now: Marshall Goldberg, Joe Walton, Mike Ditka, Tony Dorsett, Hugh Green, Mark May, Bill Fralic, Larry Fitzgerald, Aaron Donald.

 

[QuitCallingMeWanny]

Quit retiring f'in numbers!!!!!!

 

[pierre93]

I see we already had a discussion about this 6-7 years ago.

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

Pitt has to retire numbers to create a buzz for since it doesn't want to get its hands dirty and can't create a frenzy in the form of dominating football teams. I think it's ridiculous how many jerseys are retired and you must win a championship in order for your number to be retired. So only Dorsett and Goldberg would fall into this category. I wouldn't issue 13, 79 and 99, but all others: 1, 65 73, 75, 89 should definitely be in circulation.

Agreed on restricting actual retirement to those who win championships, though I’d also consider a Heisman winner or one like Donald or Fitz where they were definitely the best players that year, but moron sportswriters were too, well, moronic to see it.

For others such as 13, I would consider doing what Syracuse has done over the decades, though I’m not sure they still do … reserve 44 (which was Jim Brown’s number there) for really special recruits to seal the deal with signing them. That might not be as feasible in this era where schools like ours are almost never going to get such high school recruits again, but maybe it would help.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Instead of retiring numbers, make it an honor to wear it. For instance if Jordan Addison had come back and played this past season, he could have worn Larry Fitzgerald's number 1. If we have a high level defensive lineman coming back he can wear Aaron Donald's 97. A top running back could wear Dorsett's 33. And so on.

Don't retire the numbers, make it an honor to wear one of them and reserve that honor for high level returning players only. So lots of years no one gets to wear Green's 99. But every so often someone does.

 

[PITT 76]

Instead of retiring numbers, make it an honor to wear it. For instance if Jordan Addison had come back and played this past season, he could have worn Larry Fitzgerald's number 1. If we have a high level defensive lineman coming back he can wear Aaron Donald's 97. A top running back could wear Dorsett's 33. And so on.

Don't retire the numbers, make it an honor to wear one of them and reserve that honor for high level returning players only. So lots of years no one gets to wear Green's 99. But every so often someone does.

I like the idea of having numbers of distinction. They can still hang, but not be permanently retired.

I also like your idea of only making these numbers available to returning players who have achieved a special level.

For example, a player who wanted a certain number might have to achieve ACC 1st team status the preceding year or reach a certain benchmark.

 

[ERICCARTMAN]

As great as a player at Pitt, Larry Fitzgerald should not have had his jersey retired.
Only played two years at Pitt. Someone at Pitt should have stopped Peterson.