My question is how the hell Gerald Drumgoole was rated much higher than Champagnie? People on here were drooling about landing him and he has been so darn awful.
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Sam Young vs Justin Champagnie Debate
- Thread starter TheSpecialSauce
- Start date
Enjoy him being at Pitt this year. It very well might be his last.
Unless he goes to play overseas he does need at least another year to develop his 3-ball to NBA level.
I actually agree with this. JC is a hell of a player, that was obvious even last year. What's unknown for the remainder of his career is what kind of talent we can put around him.
XJ and Toney are certainly a good pair, but the 2008 and 2009 teams were just so stacked by Pitt standards.
I'm certainly a lot more optimistic about this year than I was a few weeks ago. We're probably still an improbable bubble team, but they should pretty safely make it in next year regardless. HCJC really needs to go all-in on that 2022 team via transfers or any other options.
If anything, I think guys should be much less likely to leave early during COVID than before. P5 schools have way more development to offer guys in expensive, regulated bubbles than they're going to coordinate on their own.
Unless you're a lottery pick, there is no reason to risk it.
Please. Another Pitt guy playing "Mary had a little lamb" would fry my tired old brain.
Sam was a bit better athlete than Penny. Plus, many forget that Sam had one of the best shot fakes I have ever seen. It was so good that many thought he was traveling. That shot fake and a quick first step made Sam a more explosive player than Penny.
I am not sure it is the best comparison one could make. Penny is a better rebounder. Where I see the biggest similarity is in their ability to finish on the break. They are both really good at finishing although Sam had a flair for the spectacular when he got out on the break.
Additionally Sam wound up being a pretty good outside shooter as a junior and senior. Penny hasn't had to shoot outside this season. He has just been a monster inside. Like I said, not a great comparison outside of them being two of the most dominant players we have had at Pitt in recent years.
I am not sure it is the best comparison one could make. Penny is a better rebounder. Where I see the biggest similarity is in their ability to finish on the break. They are both really good at finishing although Sam had a flair for the spectacular when he got out on the break.
Additionally Sam wound up being a pretty good outside shooter as a junior and senior. Penny hasn't had to shoot outside this season. He has just been a monster inside. Like I said, not a great comparison outside of them being two of the most dominant players we have had at Pitt in recent years.
Reminds me more of a blend of chevy and sam
With a unique ability to use the left.
It's obvious what he needs to do to get where he wants to go and if he works hard he can get there.
Handle, midrange jumper, 3 ball, D,
That's his ticket.
My source doesn't get any better 😉. He may be told to go back to school to work on his ball handling and outside shooting but you never know.
Lots of dudes enter in and come back. It makes sense to do that.
I think it is clear he is already defending better. This team as a whole, is not giving up many easy baskets anymore. It is a big reason why we look so much better. I still think we could close out on the three point shooters a little better. That said, our defense and added depth are the biggest reasons why I think this team will not collapse as in the two previous years.
One thing I might remind people is that teams are always going to get their points in basketball. Even Robert Morris is going to score 60 or 70 against Pitt... So somebody's points total is going to look good in the stat line. What I'm getting at is the fact that Young was surrounded by better players, so him scoring 20 is more impressive to me than Champagnie scoring 20 on this team. That's not offering an opinion on who is better or anything... I just think it ought to carry some weight.
If anything JC is closer to Blair than Young.
The rebounding and finishing around the rim is Blair 2.0. He's playing the same way with a touch more athleticism. He's about the same height at Blair but more lean.
Sam Young is arguably the best athlete (J Page) to come through the basketball program. He was a solid rebounder, but his ability to put the ball in the hoop was second to none. Could shoot, dunk, drive, PUMP FAKE, get to the line.. you name it, Sam could do it.
JC isn't there yet with his offensive ability, but he finishes around the rim better than anyone since Blair. It's amazing how he uses both hands and can score the rock around the rim. I keep waiting for his rebounding numbers to drop because he's not your typical 13 rebound guy.. or even double digit rebound guy.. but game after game the rebounding average keeps going up.
I really don't know what the ceiling is for him. He's obviously a top player in the ACC as a sophomore.. he doesn't check out as a sure fire draft prospect with his size and athleticism, but game after game he produces and you cannot ignore that. If the 3pt shot turns into 35%+ he could be the best player to come through the program..
19 and 13 as a sophomore.. I can't fathom how incredible that is. We'll see how he does against elite athletes Tuesday, but I'm not going to doubt he'll dominate.
The rebounding and finishing around the rim is Blair 2.0. He's playing the same way with a touch more athleticism. He's about the same height at Blair but more lean.
Sam Young is arguably the best athlete (J Page) to come through the basketball program. He was a solid rebounder, but his ability to put the ball in the hoop was second to none. Could shoot, dunk, drive, PUMP FAKE, get to the line.. you name it, Sam could do it.
JC isn't there yet with his offensive ability, but he finishes around the rim better than anyone since Blair. It's amazing how he uses both hands and can score the rock around the rim. I keep waiting for his rebounding numbers to drop because he's not your typical 13 rebound guy.. or even double digit rebound guy.. but game after game the rebounding average keeps going up.
I really don't know what the ceiling is for him. He's obviously a top player in the ACC as a sophomore.. he doesn't check out as a sure fire draft prospect with his size and athleticism, but game after game he produces and you cannot ignore that. If the 3pt shot turns into 35%+ he could be the best player to come through the program..
19 and 13 as a sophomore.. I can't fathom how incredible that is. We'll see how he does against elite athletes Tuesday, but I'm not going to doubt he'll dominate.
If JC was 6’8” or 9” with a slightly better shot from 3 and better on D he’d be a lottery pick , but since he currently has none of these he’ll be back next yr for sure . The guys in the NBA are just different cats . Just like all the silly speculation with X after his freshman yr both are fringe prospects and both need to tighten up their games to have a shot at the NBA . If they truly hate going to school sure they could find a spot overseas somewhere, but my bet is both are back at Pitt .
Which in the end, may suck for him, but may benefit us. He has to develop some sense of a jumpshot. I just hope he doesn't have too many people in his ear about that and causes him to sit more on the perimeter.
How was Pat Bostick much higher rated as a QB than say Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees in HS? How did Tom Brady last to the 6th round? I mean these things happen. And I see too many people taking these rankings as gospel. They are mostly projections. Some kids peak out at 16 or 17. Some were just misevaluated altogether. Some don't have the stage.
It was funny, I was catching some of the Monterverde/IMG hoop game on ESPN last night to see Hood-Schifino, Whitehead, and some others. But anyways, the color guy (who's name escapes me but he is one of these college recruiting gurus) and they started on about the ACC. The guy basically was talking about one and dones, and how that has hurt programs, but the ACC has a particularly strong Sophomore class. So you know what I am expecting right? Especially the day after the Syracuse game. He proceeded to name off Isaiah Wong of Miami, Matthew Hurt of Duke and..............................nope, Quincy Guerrier of Syracuse. No mention of Champagnie, who right now would be one of the top 3 in the clubhouse for ACC POY I would think. Why? The other three were highly ranked players, that's why. And in this era of Rivals and 247, their labels stick on these players forever in some respects.
Drumgoole is a perfect example. On no court is Drumgoole even in our top 10 of best players. It is not like he is just slower to develop but there is nothing to develop. But hey, he played for Le Lumiere, and was ranked.
Drumgoole started game 1 his freshman year and was our best player when we scrimmaged Maryland. I'm not saying he'll be any good because he looks awfully lost on the court, but his injury last year may have stunted his growth quite a bit.
Seems like it morphed him into a completely different and ineffective player. I mean I don't see any positives still watching him 2 years later. That's what is shocking to me. You'd think by now he would show and flash something right?
I agree. I haven't seen anything. The injury clearly hampered him all of last year and there could be clear pressing right now since he's totally buried on the depth chart.
I'm not saying he's a shooter like Horton, but imagine if we bailed on Ithiel after the first few games. It's hard for kids to find rhythm and get comfortable.
But to your point again, I agree. I haven't seen any flashes that would give any indication he's a promising prospect.
U funny. So u don't think Odukale could sustain the team better for X then if Champ was out and probably 2 other players would have to pick up what they would lose without Champ.
With Blair, teams absolutely had to game plan around him more than Young. Not to mention big east co player of the year.
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the real question is next year.. does this trio have a chance to surpass the Levance, Young, Blair?
The stats do this year and it's translating to wins. Kind of hard to even considering comparing the two right now, but who knows.. Pitt is a clear top half ACC team and have the potential to be better, especially next year. Could/should be an ACC powerhouse next year.
The stats do this year and it's translating to wins. Kind of hard to even considering comparing the two right now, but who knows.. Pitt is a clear top half ACC team and have the potential to be better, especially next year. Could/should be an ACC powerhouse next year.
I know that Young was more important than Blair in getting Pitt to the Elite Eight. And more important than Blair in taking Pitt to a BET title.
I mean, Drumgoole pretty clearly has the yips and I don't think that he is going to be able to fix that here at Pitt. He went from the best player in our scrimmage as a true freshman to a player with a completely broken jump shot and no confidence in any aspect of his game and you just can't give him the court time to play through that if he can't even make shots in practice. That doesn't mean that his ranking was wrong per se, just that these things happen sometimes.
As for Champagnie, he was caught in the classic "ranking for pro potential" canard which I think is stupid because the people who follow the rankings only care about college performance but it's pretty easy to see the 6'6" wing with no jumper and ding him accordingly even if he has elite skills.
As for Champagnie, he was caught in the classic "ranking for pro potential" canard which I think is stupid because the people who follow the rankings only care about college performance but it's pretty easy to see the 6'6" wing with no jumper and ding him accordingly even if he has elite skills.
As for Champagnie v. Sam, well, it's early days so I'll want to see a larger sample size before I commit to anything but by the numbers you could make the argument that Champagnie right now is better than Sam Young as a senior. So that's a little bit intriguing.
San had 32 and 8 against OK State. The next three leading scorers for Pitt (Fields - 13, Blair - 10, Gibbs 9) had 32 combined.
I wouldn't go near there yet when comparing Champ right now to Young's senior year.
Champ has to do it against the Top defenses in the country. Every top defense last year that we faced, whether it was Virginia, Duke, Florida State, Louisville etc.. slowed Champ down and kept him in "check" on offense. He had one great game against Georgia Tech and another game against Tech that kept him in check.
Sam Young dominated the top teams on offense. Teams like #1 Uconn, Louisville, Villanova, Final 4 caliber teams that were ranked in the Top 15 in efficiency in the country on defense. Young was counted on as a go to scorer against these teams and none of them could stop Young. He manhandled these teams offensively.
I think Champ has a very bright future ahead of him. But he at least right now, has a ways to go to catch up to Sam Young on offense when Young was a senior. When Champ starts putting up 20+ points on a team like Virginia's defense or other Top 25 Nationally ranked defenses, that's when AA talk can potentially start or comparing him to Young.
There is a reason Jordon is the greatest player ever. He outscored everybody and had the capacity on offense to single handily take games over which is what Young did as a senior at Pitt. Champ does a lot of great things. Rebounding, ball control, low turnover numbers, etc.. He has to show he can take games over against National Title contenders with legit defenses.
Tomorrow night should give us a good indication of his progress as a scorer
Anyone could cherry pick a few games. That is a very silly argument. I will counter by saying we never would have received a high seed without Blair and therefore never would have been in a position to make the Elite 8.
Fair enough. I was referring specifically to the tournament though for what it’s worth. As I said in my first post I’m never going to be swayed here!
I obviously agree with that, I'm just saying that the stats in a small sample size exist where a case could be made. I would not have expected that two months ago even in a small sample.
Dear god, no.
Those guys weren't merely top half ACC performers. They were #1 national seed performers.
Skill wise I don't think it's that far off. I'm not talking about the 2020-21 Trio, but this trio next year.
I have no clue where we'll end up this year - at this point, I'd be disappointed with any worse than top 7-8 in the conference.
I don't think it's crazy to assume this Pitt team will be a top 5 ACC team next year, with a chance to compete for that top spot.
Like I said, it seems arsine to even compare the two right now, but I don't think we really understand how special this trio is right now.
This trio is good, but it won’t sniff the success of the 08-09 team. It won’t even sniff the success of the second #1 seed team a couple years later.
That’s not taking anything away from this team either. But we are a decade out now and I think we forget just how good that 2008-2009 team was.
I can't argue that and there's not really an argument to be had about the two right now. Clearly the 08-09 team was the best team we've seen come through here. I think the biggest thing about this year is the unknown involved. We haven't had 3 guys produce like this ever.. and then you add in freshman contributing at a high level + a 40% 3 point shooter.. I think this Pitt team is really, really good.
Again, it seems crazy to even compare the two, but is it crazy to say this team is a top ACC team? If JC is healthy, we're 4-0 in conference right now. Sure we played a handicapped Miami and Cuse isn't great, but still, these are ACC games we haven't been winning.
We'll see how we fair tonight, but if we lose I'd be disappointed. I know it's Duke, but we have arguably the best player in the ACC, the best PG in the ACC, and arguably the best two way in the ACC. This Pitt team is a handful and they're gaining a ton of confidence.
If Blair was on this team we'd win the national title. that's not really a question.
