Saving Social Security

[pelfrey]

Just curious why would you be against having the US restore its manufacturing base ?

In theory, I'm all for it. I just wonder about the practicality and execution. We live in a very short term, what have you done for me in the last 15 minutes society. Short to medium term, tariffs will cause significant pain. Higher prices and inflation. And we may not have enough people to do the more menial labor in the factories. If he can pull it off without inflation going crazy and a bear market....but that's a tall task.

 

[WeaverIsComing]

In theory, I'm all for it. I just wonder about the practicality and execution. We live in a very short term, what have you done for me in the last 15 minutes society. Short to medium term, tariffs will cause significant pain. Higher prices and inflation. And we may not have enough people to do the more menial labor in the factories. If he can pull it off without inflation going crazy and a bear market....but that's a tall task.

If you like theory I'd recommend checking out this interview. Really you can skip any other Trump related media and watch this and have an understanding of what is happening.

 

[pittbb80]

We'll see how it all plays out. Trump worries the crap out of me...would be much more comfortable with a moderate D OR R, who is not so volatile and divisive. Question is...can anyone pull this country together (to a degree), particularly with all of the misinformation and disinformation pinballing around social media 24/7.

We need SOMEONE who can somehow unify. I'd love to see a Presidential ticket with a Dem/Rep. or Rep/Dem. Bipartisanship shouldn't be impossible.

Well to his credit he’s included Dems on his cabinet who are fairly liberal.

People say Trump is so divisive. And the truth is most people who support his policies agree that he says way too many stupid things. One recent example is this third term nonsense. It’s a totally unnecessary distraction

But having said that the media and his opponents create much of the division. Remember before Running trump was a dem/liberal guy the media loved. If you look back at videos of him well before he ran his views on trade and immigration (two of his more volatile issues) were no different. And yet he was admired by many of the same people who are making him out to be the devil For sure he’s not the most eloquent man on the world (JD) is far better IMO

What specifically scares you about Trump? I get some concern about tarrifs but there’s sound logic behind them. Is it just tarrifs ?

 

[pittbb80]

In theory, I'm all for it. I just wonder about the practicality and execution. We live in a very short term, what have you done for me in the last 15 minutes society. Short to medium term, tariffs will cause significant pain. Higher prices and inflation. And we may not have enough people to do the more menial labor in the factories. If he can pull it off without inflation going crazy and a bear market....but that's a tall task.

You’re right about that. We have what I call a Santa Claus mentality. People want all the presents but don’t want any of the hard work or sacrifice to achieve those things. Saw the same thing when I was on the school board. People wanted new facilities but didn’t want their taxes to go up !!!

The jobs aspect is one thing. The other thing that is at issue is losing manufacturing ability for key materials is a national security issue. I don’t think anyone expects the issue to be solved over night. It’s going to take time. So yeah the execution of this is critical. It’s got to be a process. Overall I’m very supportive. The path we were headed down is not sustainable IMO

 

[pelfrey]

Well to his credit he’s included Dems on his cabinet who are fairly liberal.

People say Trump is so divisive. And the truth is most people who support his policies agree that he says way too many stupid things. One recent example is this third term nonsense. It’s a totally unnecessary distraction

But having said that the media and his opponents create much of the division. Remember before Running trump was a dem/liberal guy the media loved. If you look back at videos of him well before he ran his views on trade and immigration (two of his more volatile issues) were no different. And yet he was admired by many of the same people who are making him out to be the devil For sure he’s not the most eloquent man on the world (JD) is far better IMO

What specifically scares you about Trump? I get some concern about tarrifs but there’s sound logic behind them. Is it just tarrifs ?

Here's where we may start disagreeing more forcefully, but I don't think there's any doubt that Trump tried to overthrow a legitimate election in 2020. It wasn't just January 6, but also the "find me 11,000-plus votes" in Georgia, and the fake electors scheme.

That's all ballgame for me and why I have such strong feelings about him. Then, just his constant lies and cruelty. We can do so, SO much better. He rules like a mob boss and we need a statesman, Republican or Democrat. I mean, CANADIANS now hate us...it's crazy! (And yes, his political views have changed dramatically...I don't believe that man has any principles other than trying to gain as much power and wealth as possible.)

 

[pelfrey]

You’re right about that. We have what I call a Santa Claus mentality. People want all the presents but don’t want any of the hard work or sacrifice to achieve those things. Saw the same thing when I was on the school board. People wanted new facilities but didn’t want their taxes to go up !!!

The jobs aspect is one thing. The other thing that is at issue is losing manufacturing ability for key materials is a national security issue. I don’t think anyone expects the issue to be solved over night. It’s going to take time. So yeah the execution of this is critical. It’s got to be a process. Overall I’m very supportive. The path we were headed down is not sustainable IMO

I understand the thinking and hope we can walk the tightrope. It would be wonderful to have a booming manufacturing base back here again, I don't think anyone would deny that.

 

[pittbb80]

Here's where we may start disagreeing more forcefully, but I don't think there's any doubt that Trump tried to overthrow a legitimate election in 2020. It wasn't just January 6, but also the "find me 11,000-plus votes" in Georgia, and the fake electors scheme.

That's all ballgame for me and why I have such strong feelings about him. Then, just his constant lies and cruelty. We can do so, SO much better. He rules like a mob boss and we need a statesman, Republican or Democrat. I mean, CANADIANS now hate us...it's crazy! (And yes, his political views have changed dramatically...I don't believe that man has any principles other than trying to gain as much power and wealth as possible.)

Yeah we’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree on J6. It’s just like there were good people on both sides nonsense that has been completely debunked. I likely won’t be able to convince you otherwise on this forum and neither will you. So it’s best to simply not discuss that as it’s irrelevant to the issues we face today

on a side note I despised trump before he ran. I viewed him as an obnoxious loud mouth from NY and he still shows many of those qualities. But I’ve also seen a human side of him (you’ll never know from the main stream media) that shows he truly cares for other people (he often bails people out who have experienced hardship and just they way he interacts with people is something you can’t fake).

And Trump HAS not changed his views on endless wars, trade, and the border at all from the days people like Oprah fawned over him. He’s still the same

I’m over the statesman stuff. We’ve had statesmen like Bush and Obama that sold this country out Heck even Regan that many Rs worship was a sellout. We need someone who stands up for the average citizen. A brawler

And finally I’ve traveled the world. If someone hates you because of who your president is I could care less. I like the Chinese people. I don’t like their government. I like the Russian people. Not a fan of Putin. So if Canadians don’t like “us” because we have a president who wants to put our citizens first that I could care less. Being liked is overrated when jobs are being shipped over seas and our middle class is being destroyed. Being the worlds doormat but being liked is worthless

 

[pelfrey]

Yeah we’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree on J6. It’s just like there were good people on both sides nonsense that has been completely debunked. I likely won’t be able to convince you otherwise on this forum and neither will you. So it’s best to simply not discuss that as it’s irrelevant to the issues we face today

on a side note I despised trump before he ran. I viewed him as an obnoxious loud mouth from NY and he still shows many of those qualities. But I’ve also seen a human side of him (you’ll never know from the main stream media) that shows he truly cares for other people (he often bails people out who have experienced hardship and just they way he interacts with people is something you can’t fake).

And Trump HAS not changed his views on endless wars, trade, and the border at all from the days people like Oprah fawned over him. He’s still the same

I’m over the statesman stuff. We’ve had statesmen like Bush and Obama that sold this country out Heck even Regan that many Rs worship was a sellout. We need someone who stands up for the average citizen. A brawler

And finally I’ve traveled the world. If someone hates you because of who your president is I could care less. I like the Chinese people. I don’t like their government. I like the Russian people. Not a fan of Putin. So if Canadians don’t like “us” because we have a president who wants to put our citizens first that I could care less. Being liked is overrated when jobs are being shipped over seas and our middle class is being destroyed. Being the worlds doormat but being liked is worthless

Yeah, we'll disagree on much of this but good to "talk." We all need to stop demonizing each other....more listening. I'm not always right, no one is. But I love this country and I want to see more solidarity. You can have solidarity even when disagreeing...respectfully.

Have a good one.

 

[pittbb80]

Yeah, we'll disagree on much of this but good to "talk." We all need to stop demonizing each other....more listening. I'm not always right, no one is. But I love this country and I want to see more solidarity. You can have solidarity even when disagreeing...respectfully.

Have a good one.

Agree 💯

 

[BPKY]

We'll see how it all plays out. Trump worries the crap out of me...would be much more comfortable with a moderate D OR R, who is not so volatile and divisive. Question is...can anyone pull this country together (to a degree), particularly with all of the misinformation and disinformation pinballing around social media 24/7.

We need SOMEONE who can somehow unify. I'd love to see a Presidential ticket with a Dem/Rep. or Rep/Dem. Bipartisanship shouldn't be impossible.

Well, You've certainly mellowed with age. 5 years ago some of your posts would have made Kenny8 blush. And most Republicans would argue that the fraud and chicanery by Dems in 2019 justified Trump's actions.

But that's water under the bridge. My question is what policies or principles do you see that Americans can still unite around? Is unification just another term for compromise?

 

[pelfrey]

Well, You've certainly mellowed with age. 5 years ago some of your posts would have made Kenny8 blush. And most Republicans would argue that the fraud and chicanery by Dems in 2019 justified Trump's actions.

But that's water under the bridge. My question is what policies or principles do you see that Americans can still unite around? Is unification just another term for compromise?

I still have some strong beliefs, but you're right, I have come to the conclusion that screaming at each other only does damage...and hope that being more civilized and respectful will be contagious. The anger and hate for "the other side" is beyond over the top now and it has to change for the sake of the union.

We SHOULD be able to unite around more taxation on the VERY wealthy to help shore up social security, Medicare and Medicaid. That's one. You're right, some of the issues require more compromise. Gay rights, abortion, climate...those are hard. People are pretty locked in. But again, listening and trying to understand what it is like to walk in other people's shoes can go a long way.

Take care.

 

[CJsE]

In theory, I'm all for it. I just wonder about the practicality and execution. We live in a very short term, what have you done for me in the last 15 minutes society. Short to medium term, tariffs will cause significant pain. Higher prices and inflation. And we may not have enough people to do the more menial labor in the factories. If he can pull it off without inflation going crazy and a bear market....but that's a tall task.

Because humans are short and medium term. Then ten to fifteen years it would take to shift even a small portion of manufacturing back to the US is 1/3 of an American's working life. That's not even considering the cost to every day Americans that will lose their jobs and have to completely uproot their lives.

Then imagine just how much investment it will take to onboard manufacturing, then imagine just how much political leverage those who can offer manufacturing investments will have and what concessions they will be able wring out of the federal government to make those investments. There are legitimate pushes happening, more than a dozen White House meetings in two months, for corporation run cities free from state or federal regulations. Trump has spoken about his desire to have more than 10 "Freedom Cities" created during his presidency.

None of these investments will happen without massive subsidies, like the tariffs and port fees, socializing the risks while privatizing the profits generated from these investments. Why should most Americans care if they get a $55k/year manufacturing job in 2030 if it cost them a $50k/year port job in 2025?

On top of the fact that America's economy isn't exactly built to handle much of the manual labor-intensive manufacturing that is carried out in these "evil" countries. The cost of manufacturing here for those types of products will never be priced even remotely competitively on an international scale. But there are tons of things that America can do extremely well like research, agriculture, and high tech manufacturing. But instead of building an economy geared toward our strengths, those are being gutted in favor of trying to please people that don't understand why cheap consumer products aren't manufactured here.

 

[ChiefJusticeMarshall]

I hope social security goes away and screws all the dumb boomers who voted for him

Mentally ill.

 

[BPKY]

Because humans are short and medium term. Then ten to fifteen years it would take to shift even a small portion of manufacturing back to the US is 1/3 of an American's working life. That's not even considering the cost to every day Americans that will lose their jobs and have to completely uproot their lives.

Then imagine just how much investment it will take to onboard manufacturing, then imagine just how much political leverage those who can offer manufacturing investments will have and what concessions they will be able wring out of the federal government to make those investments. There are legitimate pushes happening, more than a dozen White House meetings in two months, for corporation run cities free from state or federal regulations. Trump has spoken about his desire to have more than 10 "Freedom Cities" created during his presidency.

None of these investments will happen without massive subsidies, like the tariffs and port fees, socializing the risks while privatizing the profits generated from these investments. Why should most Americans care if they get a $55k/year manufacturing job in 2030 if it cost them a $50k/year port job in 2025?

On top of the fact that America's economy isn't exactly built to handle much of the manual labor-intensive manufacturing that is carried out in these "evil" countries. The cost of manufacturing here for those types of products will never be priced even remotely competitively on an international scale. But there are tons of things that America can do extremely well like research, agriculture, and high tech manufacturing. But instead of building an economy geared toward our strengths, those are being gutted in favor of trying to please people that don't understand why cheap consumer products aren't manufactured here.

Meh. This is one side of the equation. Not saying your points aren't worthy of consideration.

The days of working at one job for 30 years ended long ago. Uprooted lives is the new normal. And anyone doing really well making great pay is more likely a liberal Dem or RINO. Trump supporters won't bail. Same goes for socializing the risks.

It'll take time for sure before we reap the benefits. In the meantime all that investment will really prime the pump, economically. Bankers will love it.

Manufacturing isn't like investment jobs. A factory creates peripheral jobs. Diners, shipping jobs, materials purchasing, etc.

All those jobs we do well ("our strengths") will still be here. Growth is growth.

 

[pittbb80]

Meh. This is one side of the equation. Not saying your points aren't worthy of consideration.

The days of working at one job for 30 years ended long ago. Uprooted lives is the new normal. And anyone doing really well making great pay is more likely a liberal Dem or RINO. Trump supporters won't bail. Same goes for socializing the risks.

It'll take time for sure before we reap the benefits. In the meantime all that investment will really prime the pump, economically. Bankers will love it.

Manufacturing isn't like investment jobs. A factory creates peripheral jobs. Diners, shipping jobs, materials purchasing, etc.

All those jobs we do well ("our strengths") will still be here. Growth is growth.

This. The truth is new manufacturing plants are not near as manpower intensive as they used to be. Companies are looking more and more to robotics to reduce manpower costs. Having said that even with robotics you still need people to maintain them and they still cant do ALL the things actual humans can do. So brining back manufacturing jobs creates a wide cross section of jobs from janitors, to manual labor to engineers who trouble shoot the robots and program them to the guys designing the plant to engineers to optimize the process.

Yes it could take a while but seems like $4Trillion dollars of promised investment is a good start.

What I dont get is the attitude of "that will never work" and not even trying to reverse the trend. Its not just about jobs either. Its about brining back manufacturing capabilities that are critical to national security. ALso when you add manufacturing, you also spur other new businesses to support those facilities. There is a huge snowball affect.

 

[pittbb80]

Why would they do that?

 

[BPKY]

This. The truth is new manufacturing plants are not near as manpower intensive as they used to be. Companies are looking more and more to robotics to reduce manpower costs. Having said that even with robotics you still need people to maintain them and they still cant do ALL the things actual humans can do. So brining back manufacturing jobs creates a wide cross section of jobs from janitors, to manual labor to engineers who trouble shoot the robots and program them to the guys designing the plant to engineers to optimize the process.

Yes it could take a while but seems like $4Trillion dollars of promised investment is a good start.

What I dont get is the attitude of "that will never work" and not even trying to reverse the trend. Its not just about jobs either. Its about brining back manufacturing capabilities that are critical to national security. ALso when you add manufacturing, you also spur other new businesses to support those facilities. There is a huge snowball affect.

Have you ever met a communist that sincerely wanted the proles to prosper? They stop the trek to full communism once Party members get theirs.

If prosperity manifests before their social constructs manifest, their momentum will collapse and their dreams of a secular materialist world perish.

 

[CJsE]

Meh. This is one side of the equation. Not saying your points aren't worthy of consideration.

The days of working at one job for 30 years ended long ago. Uprooted lives is the new normal. And anyone doing really well making great pay is more likely a liberal Dem or RINO. Trump supporters won't bail. Same goes for socializing the risks.

It'll take time for sure before we reap the benefits. In the meantime all that investment will really prime the pump, economically. Bankers will love it.

Manufacturing isn't like investment jobs. A factory creates peripheral jobs. Diners, shipping jobs, materials purchasing, etc.

All those jobs we do well ("our strengths") will still be here. Growth is growth.

You know what else creates peripheral jobs? Every other type of job. Every type of employee needs to eat. Virtually every type of job needs shipping. Virtually every type of job requires materials.

Excluding the COVID year 2020-21, most of the past decade has been has seen the lowest sustained unemployment rates in the past 5 decades. It's incongruous to claim that domestic manufacturing will compete or replace manufacturing in countries like China, while at the same time claiming that these manufacturing jobs will somehow be better paying than the jobs those people are already working. How much is a manufacturer going to pay an American that's replacing a Chinese worker making $700/month? Do you really think that those manufacturing jobs are going to pay any better than an Amazon warehouse job? At 3.5% unemployment, the very best case scenario is that each manufacturing job created only cost 1 other job loss.

Instead of spending tens of billions of dollars per year propping up failed industries, the government could spend that money directly bettering people's lives by feeding children or providing free training courses, or just not collecting that money from the US working classes instead of passing out all the money at the top so that the crumbs can reach the 95%. It's honestly crazy to me that there are so many Republican voters out there championing increased taxation just because it has a different name. It's like they really don't think they will be the ones footing the bill.

 

[BPKY]

You know what else creates peripheral jobs? Every other type of job. Every type of employee needs to eat. Virtually every type of job needs shipping. Virtually every type of job requires materials.

Excluding the COVID year 2020-21, most of the past decade has been has seen the lowest sustained unemployment rates in the past 5 decades. It's incongruous to claim that domestic manufacturing will compete or replace manufacturing in countries like China, while at the same time claiming that these manufacturing jobs will somehow be better paying than the jobs those people are already working. How much is a manufacturer going to pay an American that's replacing a Chinese worker making $700/month? Do you really think that those manufacturing jobs are going to pay any better than an Amazon warehouse job? At 3.5% unemployment, the very best case scenario is that each manufacturing job created only cost 1 other job loss.

Instead of spending tens of billions of dollars per year propping up failed industries, the government could spend that money directly bettering people's lives by feeding children or providing free training courses, or just not collecting that money from the US working classes instead of passing out all the money at the top so that the crumbs can reach the 95%. It's honestly crazy to me that there are so many Republican voters out there championing increased taxation just because it has a different name. It's like they really don't think they will be the ones footing the bill.

WFH jobs don't spur new lunch counters. Hammerill boxes are great to save for moving day, but not the shipping/materials I was thinking of.

The new jobs create pressure on employers to pay more. Remember first principles. Corps moved manufacturing overseas because they could pay less despite shipping costs. But that cost America tax income. It also enabled deficit spending since profits flowed to China and were then lent back. All that did was add increased debt service to our tax burden. Non of it happens in a vacuum.

Increased socialism is never the answer. Nobody wants to be a debt slave, warehoused in a two room hi rise apartment eating bug protein. And nobody wants to pay taxes to save others from the burden of physical labor.

Always amusing to see a Dem eschewing high taxes.

Plus all that tariff money coming in. The global economy is long overdue for a good trade war.

It might be petty goddam bad. Probably all the other countries will line up against us. That's all right. These things gotta happen every five years or so, ten years. Helps to get rid of the bad blood. Been decades since the last one. You know, you gotta stop them at the beginning. Like they should have stopped Hitler at Munich, they should never let him get away with that, they was just asking for trouble.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

It's time America quits being everyone else's free lunch. Level the playing field and charge these equal and reasonable tariffs to even things out and generate some revenue for the American economy. To continue to fund foreign countries with generous trade agreements is nothing more than socialism.

 

[Pittisit4me]

Yeah we’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree on J6. It’s just like there were good people on both sides nonsense that has been completely debunked. I likely won’t be able to convince you otherwise on this forum and neither will you. So it’s best to simply not discuss that as it’s irrelevant to the issues we face today

on a side note I despised trump before he ran. I viewed him as an obnoxious loud mouth from NY and he still shows many of those qualities. But I’ve also seen a human side of him (you’ll never know from the main stream media) that shows he truly cares for other people (he often bails people out who have experienced hardship and just they way he interacts with people is something you can’t fake).

And Trump HAS not changed his views on endless wars, trade, and the border at all from the days people like Oprah fawned over him. He’s still the same

I’m over the statesman stuff. We’ve had statesmen like Bush and Obama that sold this country out Heck even Regan that many Rs worship was a sellout. We need someone who stands up for the average citizen. A brawler

And finally I’ve traveled the world. If someone hates you because of who your president is I could care less. I like the Chinese people. I don’t like their government. I like the Russian people. Not a fan of Putin. So if Canadians don’t like “us” because we have a president who wants to put our citizens first that I could care less. Being liked is overrated when jobs are being shipped over seas and our middle class is being destroyed. Being the worlds doormat but being liked is worthless

Excellent post!!!

 

[pittbb80]

Coons gets destroyed. Sounds a lot like the libs on this board